Someone brought up Total Recall which I remember fondly and reminiscing I
always remember it as bringing the game "Mars Saga" to life. I loved Mars
Saga the first RPG by Westwood. Such a hit of Nostalgia for it. Apparently the
first RPG with auto-mapping!

I'm tempted to find it and play it again, though all the way from 1988 the auto-
mapping might be enough to make it tolerable at least.

Anyone else play this gem?

- Justisaur

On 16/11/2021 21:58, Justisaur wrote:
> Someone brought up Total Recall which I remember fondly and reminiscing I
> always remember it as bringing the game "Mars Saga" to life. I loved Mars
> Saga the first RPG by Westwood. Such a hit of Nostalgia for it. Apparently the
> first RPG with auto-mapping!
>
> I'm tempted to find it and play it again, though all the way from 1988 the auto-
> mapping might be enough to make it tolerable at least.
>
> Anyone else play this gem?
>

Not played myself, to be honest I hadn't even heard of it. Graphics
aren't something that overly bothers me but there are limits and that's
quite a bit away from them into my eyes are bleeding territory. As a
complete aside one of the things I have noticed is that my recollection
of how old games looked graphically is often at complete odds with how
they actually looked.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:58:47 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>Someone brought up Total Recall which I remember fondly and reminiscing I
>always remember it as bringing the game "Mars Saga" to life. I loved Mars
>Saga the first RPG by Westwood. Such a hit of Nostalgia for it. Apparently the
>first RPG with auto-mapping!
>
>I'm tempted to find it and play it again, though all the way from 1988 the auto-
>mapping might be enough to make it tolerable at least.
>
>Anyone else play this gem?
>
>- Justisaur

Never played it but I am aware of it. I just took a look at it now and
it does look interesting to me.

I found some maps online in case the in-game automapper sucks.

The manual has maps. -->

https://mocagh.org/infocom/minestitan-manual.pdf

Also, there are some maps at gamefaqs -->

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/c64/581695-mars-saga/faqs

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:58:47 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>Someone brought up Total Recall which I remember fondly and reminiscing I
>always remember it as bringing the game "Mars Saga" to life. I loved Mars
>Saga the first RPG by Westwood. Such a hit of Nostalgia for it. Apparently the
>first RPG with auto-mapping!

>I'm tempted to find it and play it again, though all the way from 1988 the auto-
>mapping might be enough to make it tolerable at least.

>Anyone else play this gem?

I plated around with it briefly because it was - at least under the
"Mines of Titan" name - marketed under Infocom branding, and I wanted
to play /all/ the Infocom games. But I didn't stick with it very long.

This wasn't entirely the fault of the game; as an Infocom title, I
expected a text (or at least, heavily text-based) adventure, and
"Mines of Titan" is closer to a "Gold Box RPG" clone. It is a bit more
text-heavy and story focused, but it's still largely about driving a
band of heroes - largely identified by the standard stats - through a
step-based 3D-viewport until you run into a monster, at which point it
drops to a top-down combat interface.

It isn't a bad representative of its genre, but neither does it
immediately grab the imagination. Visually it was rather 'blah' to
look at, and - at least by the time I got around to playing it* - the
'Gold Box RPG' style was looking a bit dated. Also, it may have
improved later in the game, but its story and characters were quite
lacking for a game bearing the Infocom imprint, so I never engaged
with the title. It did have some nice features - the onscreen automap
is cool, as is the auto-combat - but that just wasn't enough. With
games like "Ultima 7" or "Monkey Island" -both of which had excellent
gameplay /and/ well-developed worlds and writing - as its competition,
it just didn't have a chance.

From a modern perspective, it is much harder to spot the differences.
Still, I fired up the game (is it in my big collection of DOS games?
Of course it is!) and my initial reaction is still one of ennui. If I
fire up "Pool of Radiance" or "2400 AD" or "Eye of the Beholder", I
want to go see what's around the next corner. With "Mines of Titan",
I'm immediately struck with the feeling of "why should I bother?"**

Still, I suppose if you are a fan of 'Gold Box' style RPGs - and
you've overplayed the SSI classics - "Mines of Titan" is perfectly
satisfactory. It is, of course, as rough-around-the-edges as all games
of its era and - at least for me personally - it lacked the charm and
immediate engagement of its competitors but from a gameplay
perspective it is probably alright. It could very well become a much
better game further on than the few hours I dedicated to it, too but I
was never encouraged to give it that much of a chance and now - thirty
years on - the shortcomings of its age do it no favors.

----------------
* The game was released in late '89; I probably played it in '91 or
'92.

** Firing it up in DOSBox, I think one of the reasons for the game's
lack of immediate impact is that it doesn't have any music, and very
limited sound FX. That, and it starts you in an enclosed location -
the eponymous tunnels of Titan - and the game feels very
claustrophobic. The addition of a skybox would have done wonders for
this game.

Spalls,
Can I ask you...and I'm sure others
would be interested..where do you
store your massive library?
I assume MOST, if not all of your
library is on Steam and GOG.
Do you have any external hard
drives (I have 7 external hard
drives connected to my DELL
XPS 1040, plus several NOT
connected which plug into
my USB 3.0 connector).
Just nosy..

On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:50:01 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:58:47 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
><justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Someone brought up Total Recall which I remember fondly and reminiscing I
>>always remember it as bringing the game "Mars Saga" to life. I loved Mars
>>Saga the first RPG by Westwood. Such a hit of Nostalgia for it. Apparently the
>>first RPG with auto-mapping!
>
>>I'm tempted to find it and play it again, though all the way from 1988 the auto-
>>mapping might be enough to make it tolerable at least.
>
>>Anyone else play this gem?
>
>
>I plated around with it briefly because it was - at least under the
>"Mines of Titan" name - marketed under Infocom branding, and I wanted
>to play /all/ the Infocom games. But I didn't stick with it very long.
>
>This wasn't entirely the fault of the game; as an Infocom title, I
>expected a text (or at least, heavily text-based) adventure, and
>"Mines of Titan" is closer to a "Gold Box RPG" clone. It is a bit more
>text-heavy and story focused, but it's still largely about driving a
>band of heroes - largely identified by the standard stats - through a
>step-based 3D-viewport until you run into a monster, at which point it
>drops to a top-down combat interface.
>
>It isn't a bad representative of its genre, but neither does it
>immediately grab the imagination. Visually it was rather 'blah' to
>look at, and - at least by the time I got around to playing it* - the
>'Gold Box RPG' style was looking a bit dated. Also, it may have
>improved later in the game, but its story and characters were quite
>lacking for a game bearing the Infocom imprint, so I never engaged
>with the title. It did have some nice features - the onscreen automap
>is cool, as is the auto-combat - but that just wasn't enough. With
>games like "Ultima 7" or "Monkey Island" -both of which had excellent
>gameplay /and/ well-developed worlds and writing - as its competition,
>it just didn't have a chance.
>
>From a modern perspective, it is much harder to spot the differences.
>Still, I fired up the game (is it in my big collection of DOS games?
>Of course it is!) and my initial reaction is still one of ennui. If I
>fire up "Pool of Radiance" or "2400 AD" or "Eye of the Beholder", I
>want to go see what's around the next corner. With "Mines of Titan",
>I'm immediately struck with the feeling of "why should I bother?"**
>
>Still, I suppose if you are a fan of 'Gold Box' style RPGs - and
>you've overplayed the SSI classics - "Mines of Titan" is perfectly
>satisfactory. It is, of course, as rough-around-the-edges as all games
>of its era and - at least for me personally - it lacked the charm and
>immediate engagement of its competitors but from a gameplay
>perspective it is probably alright. It could very well become a much
>better game further on than the few hours I dedicated to it, too but I
>was never encouraged to give it that much of a chance and now - thirty
>years on - the shortcomings of its age do it no favors.
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------
>* The game was released in late '89; I probably played it in '91 or
>'92.
>
>** Firing it up in DOSBox, I think one of the reasons for the game's
>lack of immediate impact is that it doesn't have any music, and very
>limited sound FX. That, and it starts you in an enclosed location -
>the eponymous tunnels of Titan - and the game feels very
>claustrophobic. The addition of a skybox would have done wonders for
>this game.
>

On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:50:12 -0500, Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net>
wrote:

>Spalls,
>Can I ask you...and I'm sure others
>would be interested..where do you
>store your massive library?
>I assume MOST, if not all of your
>library is on Steam and GOG.
>Do you have any external hard
>drives (I have 7 external hard
>drives connected to my DELL
>XPS 1040, plus several NOT
>connected which plug into
>my USB 3.0 connector).
>Just nosy..

Short answer: The original installers are mostly archived to a large
collection of external drives, although I have a large stash of
optical and floppy media in various cabinets and shelves.

In addition, pretty much every DOS/Win3.x game I own* has also been
installed to an internal hard-drive in a vast compilation I call my
"Ultimate DOS Game Collection". It currently occupies about 440GB of
disk space and with it I can almost instantly launch any of more than
1200 DOS games at a moment's notice. I used it just for that purpose
for my comments on "Mines of Titan" to refresh my memories on that
game. The drive itself is spinning rust (because who needs SSD speeds
for games that old?), the slowest of four internal drives in my
primary machine. However, I have numerous external drives - some
more-or-less permanently plugged into the PC, others plugged in as
needed - for back-up and archiving. And even more space on the local
network...

Side note: Between all the local drives (most with multiple
partitions), networked drives, external HDDs, and removable drives
(optical, SD/MMC/etc drives), I'm running out of drive letters. Why
must English be cursed with only 26 glyphs in its alphabet?**

--------------
* But not "Maabus."
**Yes, I know they are workarounds, but they are either very hacky or
more inconvenient than just C:\, D:\, and E:\ ;-)

I'm looking into a Blu-Ray burner (external) to archive
(mostly) downloaded movies (I was into the torrent
thing for awhile...especially when I had a DSL internet
connection in PA...took forever to download the original
Star Trek or Man From U.N.C.L.E..and several other
full season TV shows/movies)..yes I'm that old,
but DSL wasn't monitored like a cable modem.
When I moved to SC and tried downloading
torrents, it didn't take long before my internet
provider down here, gave me two warnings to
STOP it or lose my connection.
I completely stopped it.
Maybe a Blu-Ray burner would allow you to
archive a lot of your library and not have
to worry about external hard drive failures.
Just a thought.

>Pianoman

On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:43:05 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:50:12 -0500, Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Spalls,
>>Can I ask you...and I'm sure others
>>would be interested..where do you
>>store your massive library?
>>I assume MOST, if not all of your
>>library is on Steam and GOG.
>>Do you have any external hard
>>drives (I have 7 external hard
>>drives connected to my DELL
>>XPS 1040, plus several NOT
>>connected which plug into
>>my USB 3.0 connector).
>>Just nosy..
>
>Short answer: The original installers are mostly archived to a large
>collection of external drives, although I have a large stash of
>optical and floppy media in various cabinets and shelves.
>
>In addition, pretty much every DOS/Win3.x game I own* has also been
>installed to an internal hard-drive in a vast compilation I call my
>"Ultimate DOS Game Collection". It currently occupies about 440GB of
>disk space and with it I can almost instantly launch any of more than
>1200 DOS games at a moment's notice. I used it just for that purpose
>for my comments on "Mines of Titan" to refresh my memories on that
>game. The drive itself is spinning rust (because who needs SSD speeds
>for games that old?), the slowest of four internal drives in my
>primary machine. However, I have numerous external drives - some
>more-or-less permanently plugged into the PC, others plugged in as
>needed - for back-up and archiving. And even more space on the local
>network...
>
>Side note: Between all the local drives (most with multiple
>partitions), networked drives, external HDDs, and removable drives
>(optical, SD/MMC/etc drives), I'm running out of drive letters. Why
>must English be cursed with only 26 glyphs in its alphabet?**
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--------------
>* But not "Maabus."
>**Yes, I know they are workarounds, but they are either very hacky or
>more inconvenient than just C:\, D:\, and E:\ ;-)

On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 18:44:04 -0500, Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net>
wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:43:05 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:50:12 -0500, Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net>
>>wrote:

>>>Spalls,
>>>Can I ask you...and I'm sure others
>>>would be interested..where do you
>>>store your massive library?

>>Short answer: The original installers are mostly archived to a large
>>collection of external drives, although I have a large stash of
>>optical and floppy media in various cabinets and shelves.

>I completely stopped it.
>Maybe a Blu-Ray burner would allow you to
>archive a lot of your library and not have
>to worry about external hard drive failures.
>Just a thought.

Well, I done did it again; I wrote a long diatribe about the merits
(or lack thereof) of Blu-Ray, and now I'm deleting it in favor of my
'short answer' below. You're welcome. ;-)

Short answer: in almost every aspect - speed, ease of use, capacity,
portability and reliability - hard-drives win out over optical media.
The only area Blu-Ray comes out ahead is - surprisingly - price, and
even that is such a narrow margin (and one surely to diminish in the
near future) as to be almost inconsequential.

Simply speaking, Blu-Ray requires more work to use (I am *so* done
with swapping disks) and while spinning rust devices are one of the
more prone-to-failure parts of a computer, they are still amazingly
reliable, especially when used as permanent fixtures on a desktop PC.

(knocks on wood)

So I'm sticking with external drives. And unless optical media
suddenly starts offering platens with hundreds terabytes per disk (and
at a competitive price), it's unlikely I will return to the format any
time soon.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:10:30 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>So I'm sticking with external drives. And unless optical media
>suddenly starts offering platens with hundreds terabytes per disk (and
>at a competitive price), it's unlikely I will return to the format any
>time soon.

Amen to that.

I am so fucking done with optical media. Any CD and DVD games I owned
that I did not have the original box for I threw away. They won't be
missed. I don't even have any nostalgia for them like I do with
floppies. On top of that, my computer not only does not have any
optical drives, it does not even have drive bays to mount them into
anyway so what good are optical discs to me?

My entire game library is backed up onto an external hard drive. That
hard drive is backed up twice over. The only way I will lose my game
collection is if my house burns down. Most of those games I backed up
I own on GOG and can just download them from there.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:55:17 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:10:30 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>>So I'm sticking with external drives. And unless optical media
>>suddenly starts offering platens with hundreds terabytes per disk (and
>>at a competitive price), it's unlikely I will return to the format any
>>time soon.

>Amen to that.

>I am so fucking done with optical media. Any CD and DVD games I owned
>that I did not have the original box for I threw away. They won't be
>missed. I don't even have any nostalgia for them like I do with
>floppies. On top of that, my computer not only does not have any
>optical drives, it does not even have drive bays to mount them into
>anyway so what good are optical discs to me?

Except for the laptops, I still insist on optical drives for my
computers. But I know I'm the exception to the rule; it was only
recently I stopped installing floppy drives too.

My main objection to optical media is I just can't be arsed to
constantly have to find and insert a disk just to play a game (and
then have to insert another disk when I want to play another game). I
guess it's less a dissatisfaction with the media itself than the
demands of the copy-protection; honestly, if the only time I ever
needed the disc was to install the game, it probably wouldn't bother
me half as much.

There are a lot of things I dislike about Steam (and digital
distributions in general), but that is one undeniable advantage I
absolutely love and would hate to give up: there is no fucking around
with discs, just click 'n' play.

>My entire game library is backed up onto an external hard drive. That
>hard drive is backed up twice over. The only way I will lose my game
>collection is if my house burns down. Most of those games I backed up
>I own on GOG and can just download them from there.

Yeah; I don't back up my archived games from GOG/etc. I store them on
an external drive and if that goes tits-up, I'll just download them
all again. The archive is mostly as a reassurance that I have the
games should GOG/etc. suddenly disappear, or if my bandwidth should
suddenly evaporate.

In fact, the whole reason I started copying the installers to disk was
that - for a long time - I was restricted to dog-slow DSL (<1Mb/s) and
- since games took so long to download - I decided 'once was enough'
and stored everything locally rather than have to endure the lengthy
download a second time. I've just kept up the habit, even after I
finally got the bandwidth where its actually faster just to download
the game than copy it from the external drive. But were I to be so
restricted again, only then would I consider backing up the archive to
a secondary disk.

On 21/11/2021 19:34, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:55:17 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:10:30 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
>> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> So I'm sticking with external drives. And unless optical media
>>> suddenly starts offering platens with hundreds terabytes per disk (and
>>> at a competitive price), it's unlikely I will return to the format any
>>> time soon.
>
>> Amen to that.
>
>> I am so fucking done with optical media. Any CD and DVD games I owned
>> that I did not have the original box for I threw away. They won't be
>> missed. I don't even have any nostalgia for them like I do with
>> floppies. On top of that, my computer not only does not have any
>> optical drives, it does not even have drive bays to mount them into
>> anyway so what good are optical discs to me?
>
> Except for the laptops, I still insist on optical drives for my
> computers. But I know I'm the exception to the rule; it was only
> recently I stopped installing floppy drives too.
>
> My main objection to optical media is I just can't be arsed to
> constantly have to find and insert a disk just to play a game (and
> then have to insert another disk when I want to play another game). I
> guess it's less a dissatisfaction with the media itself than the
> demands of the copy-protection; honestly, if the only time I ever
> needed the disc was to install the game, it probably wouldn't bother
> me half as much.
>
> There are a lot of things I dislike about Steam (and digital
> distributions in general), but that is one undeniable advantage I
> absolutely love and would hate to give up: there is no fucking around
> with discs, just click 'n' play.
>

CD's were good for their time (I'm old enough to remember when they
started really hitting the commercial market) but boy are they a faff.
I've probably got a couple of hundred or so music CD's and there's a
significant portion that I open the case and find either a different
disc in there or just no disc at all. I have a decent hi-fi system that
I bought about twenty-fice years ago and that is hardly every used.

On 21/11/2021 18:55, Mike S. wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:10:30 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So I'm sticking with external drives. And unless optical media
>> suddenly starts offering platens with hundreds terabytes per disk (and
>> at a competitive price), it's unlikely I will return to the format any
>> time soon.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> I am so fucking done with optical media. Any CD and DVD games I owned
> that I did not have the original box for I threw away. They won't be
> missed. I don't even have any nostalgia for them like I do with
> floppies. On top of that, my computer not only does not have any
> optical drives, it does not even have drive bays to mount them into
> anyway so what good are optical discs to me?
>
> My entire game library is backed up onto an external hard drive. That
> hard drive is backed up twice over. The only way I will lose my game
> collection is if my house burns down. Most of those games I backed up
> I own on GOG and can just download them from there.
>

My PC has an old DVD-ROM and a floppy disk. Admittedly I haven't being
able to connect them to the motherboard for many years!

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:21:04 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>My PC has an old DVD-ROM and a floppy disk. Admittedly I haven't being
>able to connect them to the motherboard for many years!

I am not sure if my motherboard can take any of the optical drives I
may still have lying around my attic, probably not. But as I said, my
case can't. No drive bays. :-P

But even if I had an optical drive connected to my computer, I would
not use it. I can't be bothered with installing a game from them and
then looking for the goddamn patch. Not to mention typing in the
CD-KEY that I am sure some of my CD\DVD games have. Finally, the discs
themselves might not work. They degrade over time. At least they do in
my experience.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem
of CDs/DVDs not installing on modern systems is because modern systems
use a 64bit OS and the installers of these optical media are 32bit.
Now one way I got a very old program to not only install but run
on my Windows 10 Dell XPS 8940 system (i7-11700, 32g RAM, etc) was to
install it in Safe Mode, which it installed fine, but to RUN it in
Safe Mode, which works flawlessly.
The program, which was legally purchased is Adobe PhotoDeluxe 4.0,
but this method MAY work for those CDs/DVDs with 32bit installers.

>ALAN

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:10:13 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:21:04 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>
>>My PC has an old DVD-ROM and a floppy disk. Admittedly I haven't being
>>able to connect them to the motherboard for many years!
>
>I am not sure if my motherboard can take any of the optical drives I
>may still have lying around my attic, probably not. But as I said, my
>case can't. No drive bays. :-P
>
>But even if I had an optical drive connected to my computer, I would
>not use it. I can't be bothered with installing a game from them and
>then looking for the goddamn patch. Not to mention typing in the
>CD-KEY that I am sure some of my CD\DVD games have. Finally, the discs
>themselves might not work. They degrade over time. At least they do in
>my experience.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 19:03:15 -0500, Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net>
wrote:

>
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem
>of CDs/DVDs not installing on modern systems is because modern systems
>use a 64bit OS and the installers of these optical media are 32bit.

Close. 32-bit applications run on 64-bit Windows without problem.
However, direct support for 16-bit applications has been dropped.*
Most Win9x programs were 32-bit but many used 16-bit installers. In
many cases, it was possible to manually extract (or use a third-party
installer) the application files and the program would then run fine.

However, it is not only 16-bit programs which won't run on modern
Windows. Many older programs - usually pre-XP - utilized non-standard
system calls that Microsoft no longer supports and, in many cases,
actively prevents being used. Developers used these tricks because it
usually gave them speed boosts, or let them do stuff not 'allowed' by
the OS; Microsoft put a stop to it because it caused system
instability and opened up unnecessary security vulnerabilities. **

There are often workarounds to getting older programs to work, but
there's usually a reason Microsoft forced this incompatibility.
Unfortunately, there isn't really a 'safe' work-around other than
running the program on era-appropriate hardware, especially for
hardware-intensive apps/games where a VM may not have the performance
to keep up.

-----------
* Indirectly, you can install them using a VM, which MS includes in
some versions of Windows
** A lot of early copy-protection used 'cheats' like this, and a good
number of Win9x and early XP-era games just won't work - or even
install - on modern hardware unless the copy protection is bypassed.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> writes:

> I am so fucking done with optical media.

I guess I can say the same. I actually have a few games still on DVD but
I don't know if they're even installable any more. For example, I
installed GTA4 from DVD but it didn't work since it tries to get
something from online and the address it has doesn't work any more. So
after s-l-o-w-l-y copying the game's meager ~15 gigs from two DVDs, I
was left with a failed install. At least Rock* accepted the DVD key for
it so I could download the game and as a bonus, the DLCs too.

However, after playing a little of the biker DLC I think I'm done with
GTA4. It's too clunky. Driving is clunky, shooting likewise, NPC AI,
everything.

> My entire game library is backed up onto an external hard drive. That
> hard drive is backed up twice over. The only way I will lose my game
> collection is if my house burns down. Most of those games I backed up
> I own on GOG and can just download them from there.

I haven't gotten around to doing that. Or I have some backups maybe but
nowhere near everything. I don't actually know how different game
services deal with this? Steam and GOG are clear to me but what about
EPIC, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Origin? Not sure I have many games worth
backing up in those others, except EPIC.

Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net> wrote:
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem
>of CDs/DVDs not installing on modern systems is because modern systems
>use a 64bit OS and the installers of these optical media are 32bit.

64-bit version of Windows can run 32-bit applications without issue.
The Steam client, for example, is a 32-bit application. It used to
be common for 32-bit Windows games to use 16-bit installers, but that
isn't a problem on 64-bit versions of Windows. Windows can still run
these 16-bit installers, even though 64-bit versions of Windows don't
support 16-bit applicaitons because Windows comes with a 32-bit version
of these installers that it uses instead.

The problem with old games on CD-ROM and DVD-ROM is the copy protection
they used. Their copy protection schemes used 32-bit device drivers to
work, but 64-bit Windows doesn't support 32-bit drivers. Windows Vista
and 7 solved this problem by including a compatible 64-bit driver, but
Windows 10 doesn't support this, at least officially. It's possible to
manually load the 64-bit driver and play these games on 64-bit versions
of Windows 10.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //

On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 06:03:44 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>Alan D Ray <nalayar@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the problem
>>of CDs/DVDs not installing on modern systems is because modern systems
>>use a 64bit OS and the installers of these optical media are 32bit.
>
>64-bit version of Windows can run 32-bit applications without issue.
>The Steam client, for example, is a 32-bit application. It used to
>be common for 32-bit Windows games to use 16-bit installers, but that
>isn't a problem on 64-bit versions of Windows. Windows can still run
>these 16-bit installers, even though 64-bit versions of Windows don't
>support 16-bit applicaitons because Windows comes with a 32-bit version
>of these installers that it uses instead.
>
>The problem with old games on CD-ROM and DVD-ROM is the copy protection
>they used. Their copy protection schemes used 32-bit device drivers to
>work, but 64-bit Windows doesn't support 32-bit drivers. Windows Vista
>and 7 solved this problem by including a compatible 64-bit driver, but
>Windows 10 doesn't support this, at least officially. It's possible to
>manually load the 64-bit driver and play these games on 64-bit versions
>of Windows 10.

*--

What was the name of the nasty copy protection which made it almost
impossible to install and play games in the 90s?

I think it started with an "S"

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:11:01 -0700, PW
<iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:

>What was the name of the nasty copy protection which made it almost
>impossible to install and play games in the 90s?
>
>I think it started with an "S"

Are you thinking if "StarForce"? That was indeed a nasty copy
protection that used a kernel-level driver. It caused problems with
many optical drives, and allowed canny hackers to elevate their wares
to root-level access. It was more 2000s-era than 90s, though.

IIRC, it was so bad that Microsoft put it on the no-install list on
Windows-8 or later installations.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:41:12 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>>I think it started with an "S"
>
>Are you thinking if "StarForce"? That was indeed a nasty copy
>protection that used a kernel-level driver. It caused problems with
>many optical drives, and allowed canny hackers to elevate their wares
>to root-level access. It was more 2000s-era than 90s, though.

SecureROM?

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:18:21 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>SecureROM?

SafeDisc?

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:25:12 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:18:21 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
>wrote:
>
>>SecureROM?

Probably not. SecuRom was late 2000s, most famously coming to
prominence with its inclusion in "Spore".

>SafeDisc?

SafeDisc seems most likely; it was late 1990s (Wikipedia says 1998
through 2009). There was a bit of uproar over it early upon its
inclusion, since up until then many CD-ROM games didn't use any copy
protection and instead depended on their size to prevent piracy
(remember when 600MB seemed huge? Nobody could ever download anything
that large, we thought!)

These days, SafeDisc seems positively tame compared to the intrusive
online-requirements of modern DRM, although it - like so many forms of
copy protection - did open up your system to potential
vulnerabilities.

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:41:12 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:11:01 -0700, PW
><iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What was the name of the nasty copy protection which made it almost
>>impossible to install and play games in the 90s?
>>
>>I think it started with an "S"
>
>Are you thinking if "StarForce"? That was indeed a nasty copy
>protection that used a kernel-level driver. It caused problems with
>many optical drives, and allowed canny hackers to elevate their wares
>to root-level access. It was more 2000s-era than 90s, though.
>
>IIRC, it was so bad that Microsoft put it on the no-install list on
>Windows-8 or later installations.
>
>
>

*---

Starforce it was!

Thanks!

On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 22:12:17 -0700, PW
<iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:41:12 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:11:01 -0700, PW
>><iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:

>>>What was the name of the nasty copy protection which made it almost
>>>impossible to install and play games in the 90s?
>>>I think it started with an "S"

>>Are you thinking if "StarForce"? That was indeed a nasty copy
>>protection that used a kernel-level driver. It caused problems with
>>many optical drives, and allowed canny hackers to elevate their wares
>>to root-level access. It was more 2000s-era than 90s, though.

>Starforce it was!

Yay!

What did I win? Can I eat it, 'cause I'm hungry.

I actually have a list of StarForce-riddled games that I can't play
because of the DRM and because they've never been released as digital
downloads. Fortunately, it isn't that much of a loss for most of them,
since the games weren't that good to begin with. But for a few of
them, I've had to resort to playing them on consoles <shudder> just to
experience them again.