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computers / comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action / Re: A Short Random Ramble

SubjectAuthor
* A Short Random RambleSpalls Hurgenson
+* Re: A Short Random RambleAnt
|`* Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
| `* Re: A Short Random RambleWerner P.
|  `* Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
|   `* Re: A Short Random RambleWerner P.
|    `- Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
+* Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
|`* Re: A Short Random RambleSpalls Hurgenson
| `- Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
+* Re: A Short Random RamblePW
|`* Re: A Short Random RambleAnt
| `* Re: A Short Random RambleSpalls Hurgenson
|  `* Re: A Short Random RamblePW
|   `* Re: A Short Random RambleAnt
|    `- Re: A Short Random RambleSpalls Hurgenson
`* Re: A Short Random RambleZaghadka
 +* Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
 |`* Re: A Short Random RambleZaghadka
 | +* Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
 | |`- Re: A Short Random RambleZaghadka
 | `- Re: A Short Random RambleJAB
 `- Re: A Short Random RambleRoss Ridge

1
A Short Random Ramble

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Wed, 12 Jan 2022 03:48 UTC

It occurred to me that we are further away from "Doom 3's" release
today (18 years) than "Doom 3" was from the original "Doom's" release
(11 years).

Just think of the difference in the production values of those two
games, and then compare "Doom 3" to what we are playing now. The
former seems an almost night and day difference; the latter more like
the difference between 'just after lunch' and 'late afternoon'. That's
not said to diminish the evolution in graphics over the past two
decades, but a lot of those changes appear much more subtle in
comparison.

Of course, it's not just graphics either - there's been tremendous
changes in controls, and sound, and gameplay too. Even in the mid
'90s, games were still very rough around the edges in a way we'd find
unacceptable today. Needing a third-party app to find multiplayer
matches? Not being able to remap controls to keys of your choice? Only
seven weapons and seven monsters in the whole game? Manually
configuring IRQ and COM ports? We've come a long way since then, and
by and large the industry is the better for it. Even in 2004, many
games from the original Doom's era were hard to endure because of
their primitive production values. Dated graphics aside, most games of
2004 are still quite enjoyable today.

Which, again, isn't to imply there hasn't been advancement over the
last 18 years, but its obvious the industry has matured, and that
tremendous period of change and experimentation that birthed the
original Doom is long behind us. On the plus side, this means that
most games will be of better quality than we'd ever expect back in the
late 80s and early 90s; on the other hand, it takes a lot more to wow
us and everything we play does seem to blend together as 'more of the
same'.

Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
2004...

That's it. That's all I wanted to say. Five paragraphs; for me that's
short. ;-)

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: ant...@zimage.comANT (Ant)
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 by: Ant - Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:08 UTC

Modern games don't wow me anymore, but then I'm old now since I don't
have energy, time, budget, etc. like I used to. :(

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> It occurred to me that we are further away from "Doom 3's" release
> today (18 years) than "Doom 3" was from the original "Doom's" release
> (11 years).

> Just think of the difference in the production values of those two
> games, and then compare "Doom 3" to what we are playing now. The
> former seems an almost night and day difference; the latter more like
> the difference between 'just after lunch' and 'late afternoon'. That's
> not said to diminish the evolution in graphics over the past two
> decades, but a lot of those changes appear much more subtle in
> comparison.

> Of course, it's not just graphics either - there's been tremendous
> changes in controls, and sound, and gameplay too. Even in the mid
> '90s, games were still very rough around the edges in a way we'd find
> unacceptable today. Needing a third-party app to find multiplayer
> matches? Not being able to remap controls to keys of your choice? Only
> seven weapons and seven monsters in the whole game? Manually
> configuring IRQ and COM ports? We've come a long way since then, and
> by and large the industry is the better for it. Even in 2004, many
> games from the original Doom's era were hard to endure because of
> their primitive production values. Dated graphics aside, most games of
> 2004 are still quite enjoyable today.

> Which, again, isn't to imply there hasn't been advancement over the
> last 18 years, but its obvious the industry has matured, and that
> tremendous period of change and experimentation that birthed the
> original Doom is long behind us. On the plus side, this means that
> most games will be of better quality than we'd ever expect back in the
> late 80s and early 90s; on the other hand, it takes a lot more to wow
> us and everything we play does seem to blend together as 'more of the
> same'.

> Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
> than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
> years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
> have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
> say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
> 2004...

> That's it. That's all I wanted to say. Five paragraphs; for me that's
> short. ;-)

--
Slammy new week as expected. Lots of spams again! 2022 isn't any better and different so far. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:40:52 +0000
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 by: JAB - Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:40 UTC

Personally I'm rather happy that the rate of change in graphics has
slowed down particularly in maybe the last ten or so years? Firstly it
means that you don't end up in a two or three year cycle of having to
upgrade (which often meant pretty much replacing everything) and someone
has to pay for those nice graphics. I'm not sure where my cut-off point
is with graphics that are aiming for realism but Far Cry, although a bit
ahead of the curve when released, is certainly good enough for me. I can
appreciate graphics add to the immersion but for me they just aren't
that important. Indeed I might go as far to say that I prefer stylised
graphics over realism.

Where I think there have been changes, at least for big budget games, is
the type of games played. How many triple-A single player games were
released in the last few years compared to games that are far more
focused on games as a service. If I was going to be really cynical I
think there's been a shift in games' design from the primary purpose is
entertainment towards instead keeping your attention.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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 by: JAB - Wed, 12 Jan 2022 10:05 UTC

On 12/01/2022 04:08, Ant wrote:
> Modern games don't wow me anymore, but then I'm old now since I don't
> have energy, time, budget, etc. like I used to. :(
>

The Unreal Engine 5 demo certainly looks impressive but it doesn't have
the wow factor for me as I'm not sure it will make much difference to my
enjoyment of a game. I find it's not the fidelity of the graphics that
is key for immersion but instead things that jar with me enough to break
that immersion. A simple example is when a character walks up a slope or
a set of stairs and parts of their feet go through the object. Possibly
the must jarring I can think of, is the character animations in FO:3/NV
while in combat. It's like watching a amateur version of Thunderbirds.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
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Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 01:25 UTC

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:40:52 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>Where I think there have been changes, at least for big budget games, is
>the type of games played. How many triple-A single player games were
>released in the last few years compared to games that are far more
>focused on games as a service. If I was going to be really cynical I
>think there's been a shift in games' design from the primary purpose is
>entertainment towards instead keeping your attention.

I wasn't really making a judgment either way between games of yore and
modern titles. Mostly I was just marveling at how much time has passed
between Doom 1 and Doom 3 compared to how much time has passed since
Doom 3's release, or between Doom 1 and the PC's arrival.

There has been so much change, and whether the rapid pace of earlier
days or the more incremental pace of today's games is better or worse
is beyond my ability to decide.

But it's fun to look at a game like GATO (4-color CGA and PC speaker
noise, released 1984), a game like "Duke Nukem 3D" (released 1996,
SVGA graphics, 16-bit sound), and a game like "Star Wars Battlefront
II" (released 2017, with realistic lighting photogrammetry-enhanced
textures and models that make you believe what you are seeing is
photographic and not rendered), and wonder at the differences between
them.

I guess what I really meant to say with my ramble was that it has been
a wild ride, these past 41 years of PC development, and nothing shows
it off as well as PC gaming.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: iamnotus...@notinuse.com (PW)
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 by: PW - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 05:01 UTC

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:48:08 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>It occurred to me that we are further away from "Doom 3's" release
>today (18 years) than "Doom 3" was from the original "Doom's" release
>(11 years).
>
>Just think of the difference in the production values of those two
>games, and then compare "Doom 3" to what we are playing now. The
>former seems an almost night and day difference; the latter more like
>the difference between 'just after lunch' and 'late afternoon'. That's
>not said to diminish the evolution in graphics over the past two
>decades, but a lot of those changes appear much more subtle in
>comparison.
>
>Of course, it's not just graphics either - there's been tremendous
>changes in controls, and sound, and gameplay too. Even in the mid
>'90s, games were still very rough around the edges in a way we'd find
>unacceptable today. Needing a third-party app to find multiplayer
>matches? Not being able to remap controls to keys of your choice? Only
>seven weapons and seven monsters in the whole game? Manually
>configuring IRQ and COM ports? We've come a long way since then, and
>by and large the industry is the better for it. Even in 2004, many
>games from the original Doom's era were hard to endure because of
>their primitive production values. Dated graphics aside, most games of
>2004 are still quite enjoyable today.
>
>Which, again, isn't to imply there hasn't been advancement over the
>last 18 years, but its obvious the industry has matured, and that
>tremendous period of change and experimentation that birthed the
>original Doom is long behind us. On the plus side, this means that
>most games will be of better quality than we'd ever expect back in the
>late 80s and early 90s; on the other hand, it takes a lot more to wow
>us and everything we play does seem to blend together as 'more of the
>same'.
>
>Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
>than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
>years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
>have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
>say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
>2004...
>
>That's it. That's all I wanted to say. Five paragraphs; for me that's
>short. ;-)
>

A brief history of Doom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0L4--Yh28

I haven't watched the whole thing yet.

-pw

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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 by: Ant - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:51 UTC

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:
....
> A brief history of Doom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0L4--Yh28

> I haven't watched the whole thing yet.

I saw it long ago. That wasn't brief. ;) I played classic DOOM up to 3
(not its addons; still have its retail box!). I never played the newer
DOOM games.

--
Slammy new week as expected. Lots of spams again! 2022 isn't any better and different so far. :(
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Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
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Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 17:45 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:51:04 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>I saw it long ago. That wasn't brief. ;) I played classic DOOM up to 3
>(not its addons; still have its retail box!). I never played the newer
>DOOM games.

Personally, I'd say you aren't really missing out by not playing the
newer games. But I'm not sure I'm the intended audience for those
games anyway.

I loved "Doom"; it had an excellent mix of atmosphere and gameplay
that made me want to keep playing. Running through the slower-paced
levels at the start of of Episode 1 and working up to the climatic
final battle against the two Barons of Hell was a tremendously
satisfying experience.

I was rather cool on "Doom 2"; it felt like a gimmicky mission pack
(which, basically, it was) that sacrificed its gloomy setting for
non-stop shooting and awful platforming. I was initially very cool of
"Doom 3", until I realized I shouldn't be comparing it to the
originals but looking at it as its own game. It's not an action-packed
first-person shooter; it's more akin to the slower-paced
horror-survival games like "Resident Evil" or "Dead Space". While not
without its flaws (too much darkness, too much repetitiveness, and -
oh god - those annoying monster closets), these days I think its my
second favorite in the franchise.

"Doom 4" and "Doom Eternal" are, I suppose, good games but they follow
more closely in the footsteps of "Doom 2" than anything else. They are
all about mastering the mechanics of the game, with story and setting
and atmosphere all playing second fiddle to that goal.* It's not quite
so extreme, but I compare these games to how "Quake 3" simplified the
Quake franchise to being nothing more than an arena shooter. If you
enjoyed the earlier games as much for their non-shooting bits, then
games 4 and 5 of the franchise will likely disappoint.

But a lot of people love the newer games, so what do I know? There's
enough games out there to keep me happy even if I never play another
Doom game in my life (and if I really need to, the original has a
permanent position on my hard drive).

------
* Actually, the games have a rather convolute narrative but you can
pretty much skip past all of the cutscenes and backstory and the
experience will remain pretty much the same. The story is completely
unessential; the only emotional impact this game offers is in its
adrenalin-soaked action gameplay.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: wer...@gmx.at (Werner P.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:30:57 +0100
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 by: Werner P. - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:30 UTC

Am 12.01.22 um 11:05 schrieb JAB:
>
> The Unreal Engine 5 demo certainly looks impressive but it doesn't have
> the wow factor for me as I'm not sure it will make much difference to my
> enjoyment of a game. I find it's not the fidelity of the graphics that
> is key for immersion but instead things that jar with me enough to break
> that immersion. A simple example is when a character walks up a slope or
> a set of stairs and parts of their feet go through the object. Possibly
> the must jarring I can think of, is the character animations in FO:3/NV
> while in combat. It's like watching a amateur version of Thunderbirds.

The jump in graphics is visible but not that huge anymore.
The gameplay in AAA titles mostly has stalled they are rehashing the
same mechanics over and over again. AAA feels like summer popcorn
cinema, loud repetitive and boring with an occasional gem every few
years worthwhile watching.

The more interesting stuff atm happens on the indie side, but even there
about 5 gems usually are hidden beneath a pile of endless junk.
But if you dig out those gems, they are great and often they do not even
have that much better graphics than what was standard 15 years ago.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:08:41 +0000
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 by: JAB - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:08 UTC

On 13/01/2022 18:30, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 12.01.22 um 11:05 schrieb JAB:
>>
>> The Unreal Engine 5 demo certainly looks impressive but it doesn't
>> have the wow factor for me as I'm not sure it will make much
>> difference to my enjoyment of a game. I find it's not the fidelity of
>> the graphics that is key for immersion but instead things that jar
>> with me enough to break that immersion. A simple example is when a
>> character walks up a slope or a set of stairs and parts of their feet
>> go through the object. Possibly the must jarring I can think of, is
>> the character animations in FO:3/NV while in combat. It's like
>> watching a amateur version of Thunderbirds.
>
> The jump in graphics is visible but not that huge anymore.
> The gameplay in AAA titles mostly has stalled they are rehashing the
> same mechanics over and over again. AAA feels like summer popcorn
> cinema, loud repetitive and boring with an occasional gem every few
> years worthwhile watching.
>
> The more interesting stuff atm happens on the indie side, but even there
> about 5 gems usually are hidden beneath a pile of endless junk.
> But if you dig out those gems, they are great and often they do not even
> have that much better graphics than what was standard 15 years ago.
>

The film industry is possibly ahead of the curve when it comes to
churning out the same thing again and again. I can't remember who posed
the question but it was name a big budget movie in 2019 that wasn't a
Superhero film or a reboot.

It's kinda like the old joke about name a famous Austrian, no not that
one.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

<srptv0$iok$2@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: JAB - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 19:18 UTC

On 13/01/2022 01:25, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:40:52 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> Where I think there have been changes, at least for big budget games, is
>> the type of games played. How many triple-A single player games were
>> released in the last few years compared to games that are far more
>> focused on games as a service. If I was going to be really cynical I
>> think there's been a shift in games' design from the primary purpose is
>> entertainment towards instead keeping your attention.
>
> I wasn't really making a judgment either way between games of yore and
> modern titles. Mostly I was just marveling at how much time has passed
> between Doom 1 and Doom 3 compared to how much time has passed since
> Doom 3's release, or between Doom 1 and the PC's arrival.
>
> There has been so much change, and whether the rapid pace of earlier
> days or the more incremental pace of today's games is better or worse
> is beyond my ability to decide.
>
> But it's fun to look at a game like GATO (4-color CGA and PC speaker
> noise, released 1984), a game like "Duke Nukem 3D" (released 1996,
> SVGA graphics, 16-bit sound), and a game like "Star Wars Battlefront
> II" (released 2017, with realistic lighting photogrammetry-enhanced
> textures and models that make you believe what you are seeing is
> photographic and not rendered), and wonder at the differences between
> them.
>
> I guess what I really meant to say with my ramble was that it has been
> a wild ride, these past 41 years of PC development, and nothing shows
> it off as well as PC gaming.
>

Well it was my mini-ramble within the main ramble. Possibly what I find
most disappointing is that although games have increased their
production values they don't really seem to have moved forward, in
sometime, in their ideas and possibly moved backwards. I really enjoyed
playing in the arcades during the 80's but those games had a design
feature of getting you to put another 10p in. A lot of modern games feel
like they have a design feature of getting you to just play another hour.

Overall though I do agree with you main point and I still look back on
pressing play on that tape cassette and listening to the noise, waiting
for when I could play Manic Miner.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: wer...@gmx.at (Werner P.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Werner P. - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:07 UTC

Am 13.01.22 um 20:08 schrieb JAB:
>
> The film industry is possibly ahead of the curve when it comes to
> churning out the same thing again and again. I can't remember who posed
> the question but it was name a big budget movie in 2019 that wasn't a
> Superhero film or a reboot.
>
> It's kinda like the old joke about name a famous Austrian, no not that one.

He Austrian myself... not proud of that one...
Dumping this homeless hobo into germany probably was not the best idea
to begin with!

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 02:45:40 -0600
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:45 UTC

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:48:08 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
>than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
>years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
>have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
>say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
>2004...
>
>That's it. That's all I wanted to say. Five paragraphs; for me that's
>short. ;-)
>

Honestly, before ray-tracing, what has been going on in graphics in the
past _5_ years? Getting closer to the metal with Vulkan and DirectX12?
Anyone know?

By comparison, in those same 5 years, we went from VGA 320x200 8-bit
palette color DOOM (1993) to OpenGL hardware accelerated 800x600 32-bit
truecolor Half-Life (1998).

What happened?

Things got good enough. Maybe not with DOOM 3 in 2004, which was an
impressive last gasp for SM2.0b, but definitely by Bioshock in 2007,
cementing SM3.0 as the gold standard lighting model for years.

For how many years do you think we have had "good enough?" Not that it
didn't get better, just that it really didn't matter much.

Personally, I can go back to Batman: Arkham Asylum in 2009 and not even
sneeze at the graphics once. That's 13 damned years ago. By comparison,
we got from CGA 4-color 320x200 graphics to DOOM in MCGA 256-color
320x200 in the same time frame.

Is ray tracing really going to do it? Is VR?

And doesn't it beg the question: Is any of that really necessary? The
Switch is selling gangbusters on something much less than "good enough."
It's underpowered, IMO. I still love the games though, because the
experience matters more than the graphics at this point. You can throw
6-year-old hardware at games, dumb it down so it's portable even, and
produce a compelling game experience, and you can do it in 10GB of
storage space, if not 3-6GB for most Nintendo titles.

Do we get something that makes us go "wow" again? I used to run games
just to watch them run sometimes. Has there been anything like that in
the past 10 years? I can't think of anything.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: A Short Random Ramble

<srrg7n$8eg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:36:55 +0000
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 by: JAB - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:36 UTC

On 14/01/2022 08:45, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:48:08 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>> Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
>> than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
>> years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
>> have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
>> say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
>> 2004...
>>
>> That's it. That's all I wanted to say. Five paragraphs; for me that's
>> short. ;-)
>>
>
> Honestly, before ray-tracing, what has been going on in graphics in the
> past _5_ years? Getting closer to the metal with Vulkan and DirectX12?
> Anyone know?
>
> By comparison, in those same 5 years, we went from VGA 320x200 8-bit
> palette color DOOM (1993) to OpenGL hardware accelerated 800x600 32-bit
> truecolor Half-Life (1998).
>
> What happened?
>
> Things got good enough. Maybe not with DOOM 3 in 2004, which was an
> impressive last gasp for SM2.0b, but definitely by Bioshock in 2007,
> cementing SM3.0 as the gold standard lighting model for years.
>
> For how many years do you think we have had "good enough?" Not that it
> didn't get better, just that it really didn't matter much.
>
> Personally, I can go back to Batman: Arkham Asylum in 2009 and not even
> sneeze at the graphics once. That's 13 damned years ago. By comparison,
> we got from CGA 4-color 320x200 graphics to DOOM in MCGA 256-color
> 320x200 in the same time frame.
>
> Is ray tracing really going to do it? Is VR?
>
> And doesn't it beg the question: Is any of that really necessary? The
> Switch is selling gangbusters on something much less than "good enough."
> It's underpowered, IMO. I still love the games though, because the
> experience matters more than the graphics at this point. You can throw
> 6-year-old hardware at games, dumb it down so it's portable even, and
> produce a compelling game experience, and you can do it in 10GB of
> storage space, if not 3-6GB for most Nintendo titles.
>
> Do we get something that makes us go "wow" again? I used to run games
> just to watch them run sometimes. Has there been anything like that in
> the past 10 years? I can't think of anything.
>

That's pretty much my position although I'm not sure exactly when I
think things were 'good enough'. Ray-tracing I hear a lot about but I
just kinda think, oh ok but what difference does it really make.

The comparison I like to draw is looking at the AI in HL compared to
now. I'm really not sure there's been much advancement in that area and
for me having 'things' that act in a more believable way is of far more
interest than does someone's hair look natural. I also look at something
like STALKER and what they were tying to achieve in making a more living
world.

As for things that make me go wow, I think the last time that happened
was Far Cry. The world just looked beautiful and also expansive.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:43:32 +0000
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 by: JAB - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:43 UTC

On 13/01/2022 22:07, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 13.01.22 um 20:08 schrieb JAB:
>>
>> The film industry is possibly ahead of the curve when it comes to
>> churning out the same thing again and again. I can't remember who
>> posed the question but it was name a big budget movie in 2019 that
>> wasn't a Superhero film or a reboot.
>>
>> It's kinda like the old joke about name a famous Austrian, no not that
>> one.
>
> He Austrian myself... not proud of that one...
> Dumping this homeless hobo into germany probably was not the best idea
> to begin with!

Much better to be British then you get to be 'proud' of having a history
of going to a country and telling the locals, no I think you'll find
that we own this land now.

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 20:57 UTC

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:36:55 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>On 14/01/2022 08:45, Zaghadka wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:48:08 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>
>>> Come to think of it, we're further apart from Doom 3's release today
>>> than the original Doom was from IBM's original release of the PC (12
>>> years). Doom would have absolutely blown away gamers in 1981; it would
>>> have seemed an impossible vision of the future. I don't think I can
>>> say the same for how games of 2022 would have affected gamers in
>>> 2004...
>>>
[snip]
>>
>> Do we get something that makes us go "wow" again? I used to run games
>> just to watch them run sometimes. Has there been anything like that in
>> the past 10 years? I can't think of anything.
>>
>
>That's pretty much my position although I'm not sure exactly when I
>think things were 'good enough'. Ray-tracing I hear a lot about but I
>just kinda think, oh ok but what difference does it really make.
>
I understand. It was a boiling frog moment. It was right around 2010 for
me.

5-6 years later I got bored with KB/M games, started to go to controller
based games on the PC, and eventually realized I could be sitting in my
living room doing that. By 2020, the living room had won. It's where I do
most of my gaming rn.

I think my main interest in PC gaming was the leaps and bounds we made in
immersion factor, and that just doesn't seem to be happening any more on
an external monitor setup. Talos principle was the last game I got
totally sucked into on the PC, to the point of motion sickness, but I
haven't played it in 2 years, despite the fact that I have the DLC
puzzles to solve.

I believe more accessible VR would pique my interest again, but I wonder:
will it be on a PC? If so, what will that PC look like? Will we wear it?

I got a smartwatch for Christmas. I'm wearing something 100 times more
powerful than my first 486DX 66 on my wrist, and it's stone cold and
entirely wireless.

>The comparison I like to draw is looking at the AI in HL compared to
>now. I'm really not sure there's been much advancement in that area and
>for me having 'things' that act in a more believable way is of far more
>interest than does someone's hair look natural. I also look at something
>like STALKER and what they were tying to achieve in making a more living
>world.
>
Exactly my take on it. The experience has not greatly improved, just the
graphics, and very minimally at this point.

My wish list is simple: better AI and non-procedurally generated worlds.
But AI is too difficult to solve without risky R&D and it's not solved
for realtime applications.

Hand generated worlds just cost too much, which is too risky to do on a
AAA scale. RAGE was the last game to make an earnest try that I can
remember. Publishers gave up on hand crafted megatexturing pdq after
that. They just buried iDTech 5, even though Wolfenstein was a success. I
guess it wasn't enough of a success.

I loved RAGE for that open and meticulously detailed world. Especially
with the texture upgrade. RAGE delivered "wow" for me.

There's still money in new shiny graphics if you can get people to buy
into it, but I don't know if the market has the stomach for a complete
graphics architecture reboot like realtime ray tracing, especially with
Etherium and COVID hardware shortages around. We'll see how it plays out.
Does it have any traction? Hardware prices might make it stillborn.

Anti-RTX, this video neatly demonstrates the kind of blow-back and market
fatigue I'm seeing. It has 4 million views:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0frNP0qzxQc

>As for things that make me go wow, I think the last time that happened
>was Far Cry. The world just looked beautiful and also expansive.

Wow. That's 2004. I think the last game that gave me "wow" was DOOM 2016
running on Vulkan, just because the video card didn't break a sweat for
what it was delivering. It wasn't a graphics wow, tbs. RAGE (2011) was
the last time that happened.

I miss the wow. There's been no "wow" for me for 6 years. I am spoiled by
the rapid advances since the nineties. Spalls is right. The gaps in
advancement are pretty yawning at this point. We all lived through one
hell of a wild ride.

I suspect future gamers will not get any wow-factor until VR does
something more impressive and/or accessible, and not until there's a
killer app for it like FPS was for the PC.

Any candidates for killer VR apps that folks here can see on the horizon?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: PW - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:25 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:45:01 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:51:04 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>
>>I saw it long ago. That wasn't brief. ;) I played classic DOOM up to 3
>>(not its addons; still have its retail box!). I never played the newer
>>DOOM games.
>
>Personally, I'd say you aren't really missing out by not playing the
>newer games. But I'm not sure I'm the intended audience for those
>games anyway.
*--

For me, the last two turned out to be jumping and puzzle games. I had
hope for the newest one but it turned out to be like the previous one.

I quit the 2nd one early on because I got sick of jumping across a
revine on a moving log and then getting immediately kill when I
finally made it. No quick save. Rinse and repeat!

Got further in the other one but got sick of the same thing and quit.

-pw

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:33:26 +0000
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 by: JAB - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:33 UTC

On 14/01/2022 20:57, Zaghadka wrote:

[snip]

>>>
>>> Do we get something that makes us go "wow" again? I used to run games
>>> just to watch them run sometimes. Has there been anything like that in
>>> the past 10 years? I can't think of anything.
>>>
>>
>> That's pretty much my position although I'm not sure exactly when I
>> think things were 'good enough'. Ray-tracing I hear a lot about but I
>> just kinda think, oh ok but what difference does it really make.
>>
> I understand. It was a boiling frog moment. It was right around 2010 for
> me.
>
> 5-6 years later I got bored with KB/M games, started to go to controller
> based games on the PC, and eventually realized I could be sitting in my
> living room doing that. By 2020, the living room had won. It's where I do
> most of my gaming rn.
>

I did buy a Steam controller in the final sale as our TV has the Steam
link app so I thought it was too cheap to miss out on. There's nothing
wrong with what it does but I've probably only used it for five hours or
so. I think part of it is I've just grow up with the idea of you play
games in the computer room (or when I was younger my bedroom) and the
sitting room is for reading or watching TV/films. It probably doesn't
help that my better half would give me one of those looks if I said you
don't mind if I use the TV for an hour or so while I play computer games
do you?

[snip]
> There's still money in new shiny graphics if you can get people to buy
> into it, but I don't know if the market has the stomach for a complete
> graphics architecture reboot like realtime ray tracing, especially with
> Etherium and COVID hardware shortages around. We'll see how it plays out.
> Does it have any traction? Hardware prices might make it stillborn.
>
> Anti-RTX, this video neatly demonstrates the kind of blow-back and market
> fatigue I'm seeing. It has 4 million views:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0frNP0qzxQc
>

I admire the effort and yes that's kinda how I feel. I replaced my GPU
about a year and a half ago, thankfully before the prices became silly,
and for the first time I didn't go for a card that was at the higher end
but instead a budget one that will get the job done. When I refreshed
(CPU + RAM + MB) my system a few months later I also went more to the
budget end. The total overall cost about 2/3's of the cost of the eight
year old system I was replacing.

Even when the prices on better cards become more sensible I just don't
see the need to get a 'gaming' GPU.

>> As for things that make me go wow, I think the last time that happened
>> was Far Cry. The world just looked beautiful and also expansive.
>
> Wow. That's 2004. I think the last game that gave me "wow" was DOOM 2016
> running on Vulkan, just because the video card didn't break a sweat for
> what it was delivering. It wasn't a graphics wow, tbs. RAGE (2011) was
> the last time that happened.
>
> I miss the wow. There's been no "wow" for me for 6 years. I am spoiled by
> the rapid advances since the nineties. Spalls is right. The gaps in
> advancement are pretty yawning at this point. We all lived through one
> hell of a wild ride.
>

For Far Cry that was really in the context of the graphics of the game.
A lovely colour palette, a far more open environment and heh the bushes
move.

Other games have made me go wow but for different reasons. Two I can
think of off the top of my head, Sunless Seas and Disco Elysium. A
couple of things they have in common are they created an engaging
atmosphere without using high fidelity graphics and they were trying
something a bit different. If I look at something like Pillars of
Eternity, I enjoyed playing it but did it bring anything new to the
table. Not really although I can't blame them for sticking to a winning
(well was once anyway) formula.

Now that doesn't mean that aren't other games I haven't enjoyed but it's
a bit like films. I like the Die Hard films (expect the last one) but
it's just the same as watching say Das Boot, if that makes sense. Part
of the problem is I've moved more towards the somewhat pretentious
notion of games as an experience instead of games as, well games.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be where gaming is heading.

Looks like we may be giving Spalls a run for his money in creating long
posts!

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: JAB - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:36 UTC

On 14/01/2022 20:57, Zaghadka wrote:
> I think my main interest in PC gaming was the leaps and bounds we made in
> immersion factor, and that just doesn't seem to be happening any more on
> an external monitor setup. Talos principle was the last game I got
> totally sucked into on the PC, to the point of motion sickness, but I
> haven't played it in 2 years, despite the fact that I have the DLC
> puzzles to solve.
>

Talos Principle is a very underrated game in my opinion, an improvement
on the puzzle aspects of Portal combined with the philosophical of what
it means to be human. There's no way that should work but somehow it does.

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From: rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Ross Ridge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Ross Ridge - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 00:31 UTC

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Do we get something that makes us go "wow" again? I used to run games
>just to watch them run sometimes. Has there been anything like that in
>the past 10 years? I can't think of anything.

It's been a very very long time since a game has made me go "wow"
because of the graphics, back to Ultima Underworld. It wasn't even
the graphics themselves that made go wow, I've seen better produced by
highend workstations, it was how immersive 3d textured graphics with
the abillity to look all around could make a game.

Since then my reaction to better graphics has been tempered by the
inevitability of it, so when I do see something graphically impressive
I'm not really surprised by it.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //

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 by: Ant - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 02:05 UTC

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:45:01 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:51:04 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw it long ago. That wasn't brief. ;) I played classic DOOM up to 3
> >>(not its addons; still have its retail box!). I never played the newer
> >>DOOM games.
> >
> >Personally, I'd say you aren't really missing out by not playing the
> >newer games. But I'm not sure I'm the intended audience for those
> >games anyway.
> *--

> For me, the last two turned out to be jumping and puzzle games. I had
> hope for the newest one but it turned out to be like the previous one.
> I quit the 2nd one early on because I got sick of jumping across a
> revine on a moving log and then getting immediately kill when I
> finally made it. No quick save. Rinse and repeat!

> Got further in the other one but got sick of the same thing and quit.

Wait, the modern DOOM had annoying hard jumping and puzzle parts? I hate
that. Simple and quick are OK.
--
A quiet (long) weekend?
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
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Re: A Short Random Ramble

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 04:34 UTC

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 20:05:51 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote:

>> For me, the last two turned out to be jumping and puzzle games. I had
>> hope for the newest one but it turned out to be like the previous one.
>> I quit the 2nd one early on because I got sick of jumping across a
>> revine on a moving log and then getting immediately kill when I
>> finally made it. No quick save. Rinse and repeat!

>> Got further in the other one but got sick of the same thing and quit.

>Wait, the modern DOOM had annoying hard jumping and puzzle parts? I hate
>that. Simple and quick are OK.

Both "Doom 4" and "Doom Eternal" featured a number of platforming
segments. The former had fewer of them - at least bits were the
platforming was a requirement to finish the map - but they were
featured far more prominently in the latter, which boasted a
double-jump, a climbing mechanic and a grappling hook.

Some of the platforming in "Doom 4" could be a bit tricky, but these
were usually jumps required to find some hard-to-reach ammo or
out-of-the-way secret, and - as such - I don't see anything wrong with
putting a bit of challenge there. The platforming in "Doom Eternal"
was far more frequent, and getting to the end of many levels required
a few death defying leaps. However, the super-human agility of the
protagonist meant that most leaps were quite doable on first try. The
exceptions - again - tended to be protecting the secret areas. There
were a few segments where the platforming overstayed its welcome - I
recall one bit in one of the Hell levels with floating platforms that
sank when you landed on them, and a aggravatingly large number of
jump-pads - but on the whole it wasn't /too/ bad.

Of course, in addition to this, the core gameplay demands the player
utilize his agility to the fullest during combat, running about the
arena at full speed and leaping up and down from ledges to whirl about
in a mad frenzy of hyper-mobility. I found /this/ the far more
annoying part of the game, since I prefer slower-paced shoot-n-scoot
combat.

Still, if you like a more energetic fighting style, it's hard to argue
against the new-Doom game's method. Having played both, in fact, I
find it really hard to go back to "Doom 4" because it feels so
(comparatively) slow. Even if you didn't like "Doom 4", it's worth
giving "Doom Eternal" a try, because I think it better captures the
franchise's new 'push forward' combat mechanic much better than the
2016 game.

Me, though... I'll stick with the original Doom (albeit bloodily
modified with all the sick-gibs that the Brutal mod can provide). For
all I can appreciate the mechanics of the new-Doom games, it doesn't
mean I really like them.

Re: A Short Random Ramble

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Subject: Re: A Short Random Ramble
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 by: Zaghadka - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 15:22 UTC

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:33:26 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>Looks like we may be giving Spalls a run for his money in creating long
>posts!

I am Spalls' understudy. ;^)

--
Zag

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