My friend has Windows 10 (64 bit, educational version).

Unusually, she has (and wants) microphone to come out of speakers (she
has it at a low enough level to avoid howl).

Unfortunately, some setting change we have done has introduced a delay,
which she says in annoying. She did not have this delay when she first
started using the computer (she got it in summer 2021). She _thinks_ it
was a change that happened during my visit over Christmas, but I've no
idea what I might have done. (Or, it could be a Windows update?)

She thinks it might be something we did to "use both speakers"; I'm not
sure what she means by this, other than that I _don't_ think she's
talking about left and right. She may be wrong there though.

Any suggestions about what might be causing it? (And can I be a pain and
ask people to try out their suggestions before suggesting them - to see
if doing the opposite introduces such a delay? I can only try them out
via TeamViewer - we live 324 miles apart and I have Windows 7.)

Thanks guys and gals.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As the man said when confronted by a large dinner salad, "This isn't food.
This is what food eats."

On 3/1/2022 8:14 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> My friend has Windows 10 (64 bit, educational version).
>
> Unusually, she has (and wants) microphone to come out of speakers (she has it at a low enough level to avoid howl).
>
> Unfortunately, some setting change we have done has introduced a delay, which she says in annoying. She did not have this delay when she first started using the computer (she got it in summer 2021). She _thinks_ it was a change that happened during my visit over Christmas, but I've no idea what I might have done. (Or, it could be a Windows update?)
>
> She thinks it might be something we did to "use both speakers"; I'm not sure what she means by this, other than that I _don't_ think she's talking about left and right. She may be wrong there though.
>
> Any suggestions about what might be causing it? (And can I be a pain and ask people to try out their suggestions before suggesting them - to see if doing the opposite introduces such a delay? I can only try them out via TeamViewer - we live 324 miles apart and I have Windows 7.)
>
> Thanks guys and gals.

There is no "straight delay" case.

There might be a straight delay case for lip sync purposes on
a DVD playback (re-alignment of media), but there is no
straight delay case for conferencing situations.

Nearly all cases will involve some sort of "Echo-like" symptoms.

The user perceives the "late arrival of confusing/muddy sound"
as a "delay", when instead it is echo or digital reverb.

The Line In has a "Listen" tick box (passes signal direct from Input to Output).

The panel has Stereo Mix, which is an opposite case. It passes Output to Input,
and if "mixed" into a signal (two inputs active on Record, Mic and Stereo Mix),
you might hear yourself. Seeing the VU meter for Stereo Mix bopping around in
the Record Panel, would be your hint of trouble.

https://i.postimg.cc/7br54bFp/W7-Audio.gif

The panels can also have Effects enabled. One of the "curses" of digital audio,
is the insistence that "everybody likes Reverb, amiright?". The CMI8738, might
have been the audio card where I could not turn that off. If is intended to
give a "fuller, richer sound to orchestral arrangements", but it makes
rock music muddy.

*******

How do I test audio problems ?

With two computers.

In one computer, I use a copy of Audacity. This is my waveform generator.

I connect LineOut of one computer, to LineIn on the other.

A favorite test stimulus, is the "pulse". It should be band limited,
to make it "authentic" and "possible" considering the responses of
the audio system. That's why the edges of the waveform are sloped,
to band limit them. An ordinary microphone cannot make perfectly
vertical edges on waves (square wave), because that implies infinite
bandwidth.

____
/ \ Stimulus
_____/ \______

In a system cursed with echo, you will see this at the speakers.

____
/ \ ____ Response
_____/ \______/ \____

<--- tau --->

If tau was 10 milliseconds, this might be room echo caused
by a loop or bypass in the sound system. I'm assuming people
live in small rooms, like a bedroom with a computer.

If tau was 30 milliseconds, this is usually an "Enhancement"
in the audio driver. The Reverb effect. 30 milliseconds is
the so-called "Concert Hall" effect. Even if you turn off
all Effects, some stupid drivers insist on leaving the
30 millisecond one enabled.

Modern systems always seem to have echo suppressors. They
are not always obvious. They don't have controls. Multiple
pieces of application software can install them... and leave
it running. You will need to use your "debugger brain" on these,
as I have no systematic flowchart for this. This can be
software added as a adjunct for certain online games
(where you talk to mates while playing as a team).

Since I tested my system, while making the picture, I can
tell there is an echo suppressor running in there. Because
my speakers did not howl via feedback loop. Sometimes
an echo suppressor injects artifacts, but they really should
be tuned out as the DSP adapts.

Paul

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 13:14:05, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):
>My friend has Windows 10 (64 bit, educational version).
>
>Unusually, she has (and wants) microphone to come out of speakers (she
>has it at a low enough level to avoid howl).
>
>Unfortunately, some setting change we have done has introduced a delay,
>which she says in annoying. She did not have this delay when she first
>started using the computer (she got it in summer 2021). She _thinks_ it
>was a change that happened during my visit over Christmas, but I've no
>idea what I might have done. (Or, it could be a Windows update?)
>
>She thinks it might be something we did to "use both speakers"; I'm not
>sure what she means by this, other than that I _don't_ think she's
>talking about left and right. She may be wrong there though.
>
>Any suggestions about what might be causing it? (And can I be a pain
>and ask people to try out their suggestions before suggesting them - to
>see if doing the opposite introduces such a delay? I can only try them
>out via TeamViewer - we live 324 miles apart and I have Windows 7.)
>
>Thanks guys and gals.

Just got this:

I wondered if the speakers were a bit loud so I went into the Sound
Mixer. I found Microphone there this time but muted it to see what
would happen and the latency went away!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as Eeyore sneezed the crack all over Owl.

On 3/1/2022 10:32 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 13:14:05, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):
>> My friend has Windows 10 (64 bit, educational version).
>>
>> Unusually, she has (and wants) microphone to come out of speakers (she has it at a low enough level to avoid howl).
>>
>> Unfortunately, some setting change we have done has introduced a delay, which she says in annoying. She did not have this delay when she first started using the computer (she got it in summer 2021). She _thinks_ it was a change that happened during my visit over Christmas, but I've no idea what I might have done. (Or, it could be a Windows update?)
>>
>> She thinks it might be something we did to "use both speakers"; I'm not sure what she means by this, other than that I _don't_ think she's talking about left and right. She may be wrong there though.
>>
>> Any suggestions about what might be causing it? (And can I be a pain and ask people to try out their suggestions before suggesting them - to see if doing the opposite introduces such a delay? I can only try them out via TeamViewer - we live 324 miles apart and I have Windows 7.)
>>
>> Thanks guys and gals.
>
> Just got this:
>
> I wondered if the speakers were a bit loud so I went into the Sound Mixer.  I found Microphone there this time but muted it to see what would happen and the latency went away!

I kinda wondered why there were level controls for a microphone,
in the speaker dialog. But apparently, those controls are part of
some more direct path (when the Listen tick box is unticked).

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/Lync/en-US/6825ee2d-ad83-43bd-8d07-79cff7907b4a/microphone-output-sound-delay?forum=w7itpromedia

Paul

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 23:48:58, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually FOLLOW):
>On 3/1/2022 10:32 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[]
>> Just got this:
>> I wondered if the speakers were a bit loud so I went into the Sound
>>Mixer.  I found Microphone there this time but muted it to see what
>>would happen and the latency went away!
>
>I kinda wondered why there were level controls for a microphone,
>in the speaker dialog. But apparently, those controls are part of
>some more direct path (when the Listen tick box is unticked).
>
>https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/Lync/en-US/6825ee2d-ad83-43b
>d-8d07-79cff7907b4a/microphone-output-sound-delay?forum=w7itpromedia
>
> Paul

Thanks - passed on, though as I showed above she's solved it.

From scanning that, looks like (mostly Windows 7) used _only_ digital
mixing, not any analogue mixing that might be present in the sound
"card", except for some lucky people that did have it (possibly
dependent on hardware). With some implication that it came back with W8
or 8.1.

FWIW I couldn't find the tickbox in the "Listen" tab in W10 that I
was/am used to in 7, though something similar may be there, just
disguised as MS love to do.

But, touch wood, problem gone anyway.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It costs a lot to look this cheap - Dolly Parton