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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

SubjectAuthor
* What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INNGrant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| || `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| ||   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
||| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|||  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /The Doctor
|| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?bje
|| ||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
| |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Jason Evans
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /John Levine
|  | `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|  |  |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |  | `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |   +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |   |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?32303031
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
 |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
  +- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
   `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
    `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
     `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield

Pages:123
Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

<srsfdf$iq7$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:29:06 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:29 UTC

On 1/14/22 6:21 AM, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> Hi Grant,

Hi,

> It even sounds like a questionary to fill, and then the right optimized
> documentation appears :-)

Eh ... an active, as opposed to passive, document brings lots of ...
challenges.

> Or a book you are the Hero, will plenty of "if x go to page n" :-)

I would STRONGLY recommend avoiding page number references.

Instead, focus on document, section, and maybe paragraph. Lest your
references get out of sync way faster than you care to admit.

> Apart of a global schema of INN's architecture, I would still like to
> understand why already existing contributed documentation for "First
> Server" is still not good enough, and what should be added.

N.B.: I've not read the aforementioned documentation in a long time.

I feel like you've probably answered your own question without realizing it.

- everything is mixed
- not everyone has the same expectation
- limit of each document
- too dense
- too long

I'm not suggesting that the content of the existing documents be duplicated.

I am suggesting that documents and tasks get a -- I'm picking this
number out of the air -- one paragraph summary that touches on the
biggest points and refers to other documents & sections. E.g.

--8<--
There are multiple storage methods; trasdpool, <other types that escape
me at the moment>, etc. It is suggested that you start with tradspool.
For more details about the listed spool storage methods, refer to the
<document name> document, section <section name>.
-->8--

I would hope that the first server document could be read in the amount
of time that it takes to read a long email. It shouldn't answer all the
questions. But it should provide some background / context and provide
pointers of where to get more detailed information.

In some ways, it's more of an introduction / overview that someone might
give in the first 5-10 minutes of a multi-hour talk, wherein they
brifely itroduce the concept and say something like "we'll talk more
about spool storage when we get back from lunch" type thing.

> (Nobody answered when I asked what should be changed in these one-HTML
> pages describing the installation of INN and its related packages.)

I'm also thinking more Usenet / NNTP generalities with highlights on INN
specifics.

The first server document should leave the reader with an idea of "i
need to go read <this>, <that>, and <other thing>, but I do have an idea
how the three relate to each other and why they are important at the
1,000 foot level.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:31:53 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:31 UTC

On 1/14/22 5:17 AM, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> Hi Grant,

Hi,

> Yes exactly, the special ME entry in newsfeeds can do that.

....

> Anyway, all of that could be done via Cleanfeed.

I think you touch on an interesting point. Namely that there are
multiple ways to do different things.

There should be some introductory documentation on how to do $TASK via
each of the included methods.

Ideally there should be a recommendation of which method to use to start
with. There should also be an answer as to why the recommendation is made.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:42:15 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:42 UTC

On 1/14/22 6:27 AM, jdanield wrote:
> it should also be made clear what a "path" is.

True.

All of the examples you provided are a "sequence of locations". What
those locations represent and are used for mean different things
depending on the type of path you are talking about.

> once again, same word for different use... confusing.

This is not limited to INN -> NNTP -> Usenet.

> * system path, where Linux looks for executable
> * local path:

Both -- what you refer to as -- the "system path" and "local path" are
shell PATH variables. The difference is which user you are referring to.

I usually see this referred to as the PATH environment variable. Or
more specifically the "News user's PATH" / "system wide / default PATH"
/ "your personal PATH". All three are the same thing. The only
difference is the context that they are viewed from.

E.g. your email address is ... my email address is ... etc. They are
the same thing, an email address. But they have different values based
on who's they are.

Wherein the PATH is the sequence of directories that the shell will look
in for executables for external (not built-in) commands.

> * feed path: route followed by an article (if I understand well) -
> example in the article I answer:

Feed path is the path, or "sequence of locations", that an article took
from the source server to destination server you are reading the article
from.

There are also library search paths, manual page search paths, network
routing paths (think traceroute), Autonomous System Paths (BGP), etc.
All of them are sequences of locations that something passed through.

More specific to INN is the file system path for various things that INN
uses. E.g. the path to the configuration files, the path to the spool
directory, etc. Path in this context is the sequence of directories to
get to where something is.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
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 by: meff - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 21:21 UTC

On 2022-01-14, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> If a distro is using atypical paths, then I think they need to either
> update the documentation, or do something like the sym-link trick to
> have their path point to the paths in the documentation so that things
> seem rational.

nginx runs into these problems as well. Debian based distros follow a
convention inherited from apache around sites-enabled and
sites-available, but other distros and mainline nginx do not follow
this hierarchy. I believe this is actually documented in the Debian
based distros though.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: thh...@thh.name (Thomas Hochstein)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
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 by: Thomas Hochstein - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 09:14 UTC

Julien ÉLIE schrieb:

> > 1. A tutorial on how to set up the server for the first time
>
> That's a tough tutorial to do!

It's mostly covered by INSTALL and the checklist, I think.

> > I tried to do that in 2005:
> >
> > <https://th-h.de/net/usenet/servers/inn/overview/> (German language)
>
> Good job! Pretty detailed.

Thanks.

> Russ, couldn't it be added in the "Contributed documentation" of your
> INN's main web page?

Or someone could do a (machine-assisted, eg. by Deeple) translation to
English before; it's CC-licensed (BY-NC-SA) and could be re-licensed in
any way necessary.

-thh

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (32303031)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:48:10 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: rocksolid2 (novabbs.org)
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 by: 32303031 - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 10:48 UTC

Grant Taylor wrote:

> Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think that
> running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than it
> possibly should have.
>
> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
> barrier of entry for you?
>
> I ask in the spirit of hoping to collectively learn from this and
> streamline / simplify Usenet / NNTP / INN server installation &
> configuration.
>
> What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done
> without substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written /
> config files are parsed.

Personally for me not technical, but, primary, the organizational
component serves as an barrier to set up and own NNTP server. For
example, INN 2.x FAQ says nothing about how to find a peer. No peer - no
useful content - no reason to set up and advertise own NNTP server.

Quality of content raise a question. Currently and old commercial spam
can be found in some groups.

Anti-spam meaasures need to be improved, need to be simplicity, need to
be accessible. I have no idea who accept complain on admin, who ignore
spam report. "news.report.spam" or something like would be suitable
place for reports and transparency demonstration of efforts that aim to
eradicate the problem.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 12:19:22 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:19 UTC

Le 15/01/2022 à 10:14, Thomas Hochstein a écrit :

> Or someone could do a (machine-assisted, eg. by Deeple) translation to
> English before; it's CC-licensed (BY-NC-SA) and could be re-licensed in
> any way necessary.
>
> -thh

here the english deepl translation on pad (editable)

https://semestriel.framapad.org/p/8xr32rzdmz-9rzn?lang=fr

jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:55:19 -0800
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 by: Russ Allbery - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:55 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

> Bonsoir Jean-Daniel,

>>> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
>> missed this one :-(. should be linked on top of "documentation" here:
>> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/
>> (no "checklist" in this page :-()

> A suggestion for Russ.
> It indeed may be worth highlighting more CHECKLIST and INSTALL.

I've added some more prominent links to the checklist and install for the
current stable version.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:55:41 -0800
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 by: Russ Allbery - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:55 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

> Hi Thomas,

>> 2. An overview, perhaps even including a few diagrams, of how all the
>> individual programss and their configuration files fit together and
>> interact.
>> I tried to do that in 2005:
>> <https://th-h.de/net/usenet/servers/inn/overview/> (German language)

> Good job! Pretty detailed.

> Russ, couldn't it be added in the "Contributed documentation" of your
> INN's main web page?

Done. I also added a link to your video. Thanks!

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:43 UTC

Hi Thomas,

>>> 1. A tutorial on how to set up the server for the first time
>
> It's mostly covered by INSTALL and the checklist, I think.

I also thought, but apparently most of people participating in this
thread find them too difficult to read and follow.
I admit being a bit puzzled about what to do more in INN documentation
(except for a schema of the architecture of INN components and how they
related to each other, I'll have a look at that).

FWIW, I've taken into account the suggestion of making CHECKLIST
"opiniated" and simply pointing to other man pages. This way, one can
just follow CHECKLIST step by step (and skip the first "Compile" Section
if it does not apply).

I've differentiated the necessary initial setup in "Parameter" and "Run"
to have a working installation with more complex "Additional
Configuration" that can come later.

https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
(yes, there's a little problem with UTF-8 encoding to fix)

Examples of new "IN A NUTSHELL" Sections at the beginning of a few man
pages:
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/newsfeeds.html
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/readers.conf.html

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Une fois rien, c'est rien ; deux fois rien, c'est pas beaucoup, mais
pour trois fois rien, on peut déjà acheter quelque chose, et pour pas
cher. » (Raymond Devos)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:46:48 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:46 UTC

Hi Russ,

>>>> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
>>> missed this one :-(. should be linked on top of "documentation" here:
>>> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/
>>> (no "checklist" in this page :-()
>
>> A suggestion for Russ.
>> It indeed may be worth highlighting more CHECKLIST and INSTALL.
>
> I've added some more prominent links to the checklist and install for the
> current stable version.

Many thanks for the update (and also the link to the video).

I'll backport changes to CHECKLIST for the stable version (just need
removing the parts about the new ovsqlite overview storage method and
native Cancel-Lock support -- all new in INN 2.7.0).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Une fois rien, c'est rien ; deux fois rien, c'est pas beaucoup, mais
pour trois fois rien, on peut déjà acheter quelque chose, et pour pas
cher. » (Raymond Devos)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:54:52 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:54 UTC

Hi meff,

> A couple things that stood out to me:

Thanks for your valuable comments!

> 1. I only found out about the Checklist in this thread. I naturally
> went straight for the README and INSTALL first because they were at
> the top of the list of docs.

Now improved.

> 2. The "Choosing an article storage format" section seems a bit
> unnecessary for most folks. There's just enough detail to know that
> there's alternatives to things like "tradspool", but not enough to
> know exactly what benefits are offered by something like "cnfs". The
> "nerdy layperson" in me is confused at the choice, the engineer in me
> wants to know just how much faster under what conditions an allocated
> buffer as in cnfs is than tradspool, especially on newer filesystems
> and SSDs.

CHECKLIST is now opiniated.
Besides, I have noted to make a video to explain the differences, with a
comparison in the form of a table with different criteria.

> 3. The "Overview Storage Mechanism" section also seems a bit
> overkill. The layperson in me would skim the section and pick
> "tradindexed" because "traditional" sounds conservative and easy? The
> engineer in me again wonders under which conditions I would pick one
> or the other. I went with ovsqlite because I'm familiar with the
> performance and guarantees of sqlite.

Same comment as for 2.

> 4. The syntax for the different files is confusing. It's like I'm
> learning a new config DSL for each thing.

Yes, you're totally right.
The long-term goal is to homogenize the syntax across all INN
configuration files. At least the new inn-secrets.conf file re-uses the
same parser as inn.conf. I hope to convert other configuration files in
the future (patches welcome of course!).

> 5. I'm unclear as to why Perl and Python are compiled into INN for
> filter usage. Is it to avoid spawning a Perl or Python subprocess when
> running filters? How does this work?

To directly have access to a few functions and variables. It's also faster.
Notably, spam-filtering with Cleanfeed or PyClean need building INN with
Perl or Python support.

How does it work? More background here:
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/hook-perl.html
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/hook-python.html

> At a high-level I'd like a couple things:
>
> 1. An opinionated guide on setting up INN that picks sane defaults
> based on today's filesystems, SSDs, and networking assumptions. Folks
> interested in UUCP can certainly read about integrating rmail, but
> most folks setting up INN will just want NNTP support. I also don't
> know how hard it is for a modern computer/VPS to handle Usenet levels
> of traffic, so I'm unsure on how careful the operator needs to be when
> picking the article storage format or the overview storage mechanism.

Normally dealt with in CHECKLIST.

> 2. An architectural explanation on how INN works.

Needs doing, indeed. I've noted that.

> 3. A clearer explanation on how filters work and why you'd even need
> filters.

What do you think is missing in our documentation about that?
I would appreciate a suggestion of wording I could just integrate in
CHECKLIST or INSTALL, or elsewhere if you think it is useful.

Notwithstanding, please note that already existing paragraph in INSTALL:

"""
For the most common installation, a standalone news server, a suggested
set of options is:

./configure --with-perl --with-python

provided that you have the necessary versions of Perl and Python
installed. (Compiling with embedded Perl and Python interpreters will
allow you to use one of the available excellent spam filters if you so
choose.)
"""

And these ones in CHECKLIST I recently added:

[Compile Section]
"""
You will need to have the relevant external libraries to compile
(depending on whether you use OpenSSL for TLS access to your news
server, libcanlock to verify the authenticity of cancel articles, Perl
and/or Python for spam and abuse filtering, etc.) and to correctly set
the right paths to external programs (like for GnuPG to verify the
authenticity of Usenet control messages).
"""

[Additional Configuration Section]
"""
You may want to install a spam and abuse filter. Good choices are either
Cleanfeed (a widely used Perl filter you can find at
<http://www.mixmin.net/cleanfeed/>) or PyClean (also a great Python
filter you can find at <https://github.com/crooks/PyClean>).

You need to have an INN installation built with Perl and/or Python
support to be able to use these filters.
"""

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Une fois rien, c'est rien ; deux fois rien, c'est pas beaucoup, mais
pour trois fois rien, on peut déjà acheter quelque chose, et pour pas
cher. » (Raymond Devos)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:06:23 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <srsfdf$iq7$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:06 UTC

Hi Grant,

>> Or a book you are the Hero, will plenty of "if x go to page n" :-)
>
> I would STRONGLY recommend avoiding page number references.

Hmm, maybe my reference was not clear enough.
I see that the name "a book you are the hero" ("Un livre dont vous êtes
le héros", in French) is the one chosen by a French editor.
They're known as gamebooks or "choose your own adventure" in your country.

So of course I wouldn't have hard-coded the page numbers. Modern
editing software know how to dynamically update number pages when doing
proper references.

> I would hope that the first server document could be read in the amount
> of time that it takes to read a long email.  It shouldn't answer all the
> questions.  But it should provide some background / context and provide
> pointers of where to get more detailed information.
>
> In some ways, it's more of an introduction / overview that someone might
> give in the first 5-10 minutes of a multi-hour talk, wherein they
> brifely itroduce the concept and say something like "we'll talk more
> about spool storage when we get back from lunch" type thing.

Good idea.

> The first server document should leave the reader with an idea of "i
> need to go read <this>, <that>, and <other thing>, but I do have an idea
> how the three relate to each other and why they are important at the
> 1,000 foot level.

And then he takes an aspirin :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Ordre est donné d'enquêter dans tout le secteur, afin d'identifier
et de confondre les légions à la solde de Pompée !
– S'ils n'ont pas de signes distinctifs, ça ne sera pas facile mon
général ! » (Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:25:48 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:25 UTC

On 1/18/22 7:06 AM, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> Hi Grant,

Hi Julien,

> Hmm, maybe my reference was not clear enough.

No, you were clear enough.

> I see that the name "a book you are the hero" ("Un livre dont vous êtes
> le héros", in French) is the one chosen by a French editor.
> They're known as gamebooks or "choose your own adventure" in your country.

If I'm following you correctly, I know those as "choose your own
adventure" (type of) books.

> So of course I wouldn't have hard-coded the page numbers.  Modern
> editing software know how to dynamically update number pages when doing
> proper references.

I'm thinking bigger than that.

What happens to page 38 in the 3rd version when you add significant
content on page 24 in the 4th version?

That's where section and maybe paragraph numbers significantly transcend
page numbers.

It's not /just/ about the page numbers /within/ a given version. I can
say "go read section 3.2" of just about any version and people read what
I want. (Assuming that section numbers aren't changed.) Page numbers
can be highly dynamic.

> Good idea.

:-)

> And then he takes an aspirin :-)

Asprin, caffeine, alcohol, pick your poison. At least the person has an
overview of how things fit together and an idea of the things they
/should/ read or at least skim (even if they choose not to).

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:05:40 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sat, 22 Jan 2022 11:05 UTC

In response to someone called "32303031":

> Personally for me not technical, but, primary, the organizational
> component serves as an barrier to set up and own NNTP server. For
> example, INN 2.x FAQ says nothing about how to find a peer. No peer - no
> useful content - no reason to set up and advertise own NNTP server.

That's a pretty good point, thanks for raising it!

A specific question has been added in the FAQ to address that.
And a reference to the news.admin.peering newsgroup in CHECKLIST and the
newsfeeds man page.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. » (Virgile)

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From: sys...@endofthelinebbs.com (Nigel Reed)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 01:11:23 -0600
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
Message-ID: <20220126011123.2d4bfd59@wibble.sysadmininc.com>
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 by: Nigel Reed - Wed, 26 Jan 2022 07:11 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think
> that running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than
> it possibly should have.

Another thing that I think that was missing was a list of pre-req
packages or libraries, possibly listed for the most common types of
package system such as rpms or .deb packages. I moved to another server
and tried to compile but was missing perl_alloc which I had to chase
down and a few other bits. Knowing ahead of time what I need would save
several iterations through ./configure

[This got stuck in my client outbound queue for some reason)

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:08:22 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:08 UTC

Hi Nigel,

> Another thing that I think that was missing was a list of pre-req
> packages or libraries, possibly listed for the most common types of
> package system such as rpms or .deb packages. I moved to another server
> and tried to compile but was missing perl_alloc which I had to chase
> down and a few other bits. Knowing ahead of time what I need would save
> several iterations through ./configure

perl_alloc comes from the Perl development libraries (libperl-dev).

I've just had a look at the logs of Debian builds:

Merged Build-Depends: bison, flex, libperl-dev, python3-dev, libdb-dev,
libkrb5-dev, libpam0g-dev, libsasl2-dev, libsystemd-dev, pkg-config,
libssl-dev, zlib1g-dev

And Fedora builds:

byacc, cyrus-sasl-devel, flex, gnupg2, krb5-devel, libdb4-devel,
openssl-devel, pam-devel, perl-ExtUtils-Embed, perl-GD, perl-MIME-tools,
perl-devel, perl-generators, perl-interpreter, python2

Is it the list you would like to appear in CHECKLIST and INSTALL?

I'll add libcanlock-dev and libsqlite3-dev for INN 2.7.0 (for Cancel
Lock support and the news ovsqlite overview method).
It is libcanlock-devel and sqlite3-devel for Fedora.

As well as libgd-perl (to generate images in HTML daily Usenet reports),
libmime-tools-perl (to handle newgroup/rmgroup/checkgroups articles),
gnupg (for control articles and NoCeM) for Debian.
And python-devel, libsasl-devel, systemd-devel, zlib-devel, pkg-config
for Fedora.

Any other things you would like to add in our installation guide that
you think would have been helpful?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Bibere humanum est, ergo bibamus. »

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:28:46 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
Message-ID: <ssslf7$833$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <srbfvb$ji$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
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 by: Grant Taylor - Wed, 26 Jan 2022 23:28 UTC

On 1/26/22 12:11 AM, Nigel Reed wrote:
> Another thing that I think that was missing was a list of pre-req
> packages or libraries, possibly listed for the most common types
> of package system such as rpms or .deb packages.

I would expect that the system's package manager would handle
dependencies when installing packages.

> I moved to another server and tried to compile but was missing
> perl_alloc which I had to chase down and a few other bits. Knowing
> ahead of time what I need would save several iterations through
> ./configure

Compiling from source is another thing entirely.

I would expect that there is documentation about what dependencies there
are.

But IM(ns)HO the configure script /is/ the method for ensuring that
dependencies are met when compiling.

Admittedly it would be nice if the configure script could ~> would make
it through all the tests and then generate a report of what's preventing
the build. That way you could probably reduce the number of runs to
two. The first time to find out what is missing, and the second time
actually do the configure having fulfilled the dependencies.

> [This got stuck in my client outbound queue for some reason)

It happens.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:48:40 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:48 UTC

Hi Grant,

>> I moved to another server and tried to compile but was missing
>> perl_alloc which I had to chase down and a few other bits. Knowing
>> ahead of time what I need would save several iterations through
>> ./configure
>
> Compiling from source is another thing entirely.
>
> I would expect that there is documentation about what dependencies there
> are.
>
> But IM(ns)HO the configure script /is/ the method for ensuring that
> dependencies are met when compiling.

The configure script actually already ensures that.
As for the example of a failure to find perl_alloc, it is because the
Perl library is not installed.
configure will fail the following way:

checking for Perl version 5.004_03 or later... /usr/bin/perl
checking for Perl module Encode... yes
checking for Perl module GD... yes
checking for Perl module MIME::Parser... yes
checking for flags to link with Perl... -Wl,-E -fstack-protector-strong
-L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.32/CORE -lperl -ldl
-lm -lpthread -lcrypt
checking EXTERN.h usability... yes
checking EXTERN.h presence... yes
checking for EXTERN.h... yes
configure: error: in `/home/news/work/inn/main':
configure: error: unable to link with Perl library

And indeed, the configure checks are:

AC_CHECK_HEADER([EXTERN.h], [],
[AC_MSG_FAILURE([unable to compile with EXTERN.h])])
AC_CHECK_FUNC([perl_alloc], [],
[AC_MSG_FAILURE([unable to link with Perl library])])

So, yes, it means that Perl library is missing.
It corresponds to the libperl-dev (deb) or perl-devel (rpm) packages.

> Admittedly it would be nice if the configure script could ~> would make
> it through all the tests and then generate a report of what's preventing
> the build.

Unfortunately, we stop configure with an error failure as soon as a
mandatory check fails. We do not have such a summary of all errors that
would permit running configure only twice.

Well, it normally does not take long to run...

So, would the list of dependencies I suggested in a previous message in
this thread be OK and correspond to what you had in mind Nigel?
I suggest to just print them at the beginning of the configure output.
This way, they can easily be seen by everybody building INN.

% ./configure
configure: Building INN requires the following dependencies to be met.

Mandatory (deb): bison, flex, perl, default-mta (or any specific MTA) [...]
Optional (deb): libperl-dev (--with-perl), python3-dev (--with-python),
libsqlite3-dev (--with-sqlite3) [...]

Mandatory (rpm): byacc, flex, perl, postfix (or any other MTA) [...]
Optional (rpm): perl-devel (--with-perl), python3-devel (--with-python),
sqlite3-devel (--with-sqlite3) [...]

checking for gcc... gcc
checking whether the C compiler works... yes
[...]

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Bibere humanum est, ergo bibamus. »

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: sys...@endofthelinebbs.com (Nigel Reed)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:52:16 -0600
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
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 by: Nigel Reed - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 02:52 UTC

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:28:46 -0700
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> I would expect that the system's package manager would handle
> dependencies when installing packages.

Not when you build from source, obviously.

> I would expect that there is documentation about what dependencies
> there are.

There is no mention of perl_alloc in the root or doc directory.

> But IM(ns)HO the configure script /is/ the method for ensuring that
> dependencies are met when compiling.

Yes but saying that is cannot find perl_alloc doesn't tell me which
package I need to install. It would be better to have a list of all
libraries and possibly a package list for the major distros.

> Admittedly it would be nice if the configure script could ~> would
> make it through all the tests and then generate a report of what's
> preventing the build. That way you could probably reduce the number
> of runs to two. The first time to find out what is missing, and the
> second time actually do the configure having fulfilled the
> dependencies.

Right, but still without knowing which package something is in, that
still leaves it to end user to hunt down the missing package.

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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From: sys...@endofthelinebbs.com (Nigel Reed)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:55:49 -0600
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
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 by: Nigel Reed - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 02:55 UTC

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:08:22 +0100
Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

> perl_alloc comes from the Perl development libraries (libperl-dev).

Well yes, I know that now. but there's nothing obvious to tell you that.

> I've just had a look at the logs of Debian builds:
> And Fedora builds:

> Is it the list you would like to appear in CHECKLIST and INSTALL?

Yes, something like that would be perfect.

> I'll add libcanlock-dev and libsqlite3-dev for INN 2.7.0 (for Cancel
> Lock support and the news ovsqlite overview method).
> It is libcanlock-devel and sqlite3-devel for Fedora.

Sounds good.

> Any other things you would like to add in our installation guide that
> you think would have been helpful?

Nothing that springs to mind. Obviously I have it all compiled now, but
I'm sure that list will help the next person who comes along.

Thanks,
Nigel

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:14:03 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:14 UTC

On 1/27/22 7:52 PM, Nigel Reed wrote:
> Not when you build from source, obviously.

Source and packaged versions are two completely different things.

Packages are inherently (type of) distribution specific and source is
distribution agnostic.

> There is no mention of perl_alloc in the root or doc directory.

I think that's being worked on / rectified.

> Yes but saying that is cannot find perl_alloc doesn't tell me which
> package I need to install. It would be better to have a list of all
> libraries and possibly a package list for the major distros.
>
> Right, but still without knowing which package something is in, that
> still leaves it to end user to hunt down the missing package.

Both of these (last) comments are a symptom of the difference between
source vs packaged distribution. If you are doing things from source,
you are working in a distribution agnostic manner. As such, there would
not be any information as to what packages are called. It is up to you
to identify which package provides a given dependency for the
distribution that you're using.

There are a lot of different distributions across many different OSs.
Expecting a source maintainer to know what package is used on your
specific OS / distribution is ... probably unreasonable.

Be greatful if you get a "library" is often called something like
"<bla>" on "<blabla>" based distributions, but will probably have
different version numbers or different names, adjust as necessary for
your distribution. And that will only be for the biggest few distributions.

An analogy would be converting a specific color / PanTone to different
paint color names from different brands. I've seen standards say
specific color / PanTones for safety signs and the likes. You translate
to what that is in your preferred paint brand.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: sys...@endofthelinebbs.com (Nigel Reed)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 02:37:05 -0600
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
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 by: Nigel Reed - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:37 UTC

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:14:03 -0700
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> On 1/27/22 7:52 PM, Nigel Reed wrote:
> > Not when you build from source, obviously.
>
> Source and packaged versions are two completely different things.

I didn't say anything about installing a packaged version. I need to
know what packages I need to install for the source to compile.

> > There is no mention of perl_alloc in the root or doc directory.
>
> I think that's being worked on / rectified.

Right, this was just an example of why we need a list of packages for
distros if someone is compiling the source.

> > Right, but still without knowing which package something is in, that
> > still leaves it to end user to hunt down the missing package.
>
> Both of these (last) comments are a symptom of the difference between
> source vs packaged distribution. If you are doing things from
> source, you are working in a distribution agnostic manner. As such,
> there would not be any information as to what packages are called.
> It is up to you to identify which package provides a given dependency
> for the distribution that you're using.

A lot of people may want to build from source if their distro's
packaged versions are not up to date, or maybe the distro doesn't have
a compile time option enabled that it wanted, or both.

The reason why I wanted to compile my own version was to have
everything in a /news news directory rather than having bits and pieces
scattered all over different file systems but that doesn't mean I can't
install the pre-reqs from the distros package system.

> There are a lot of different distributions across many different OSs.
> Expecting a source maintainer to know what package is used on your
> specific OS / distribution is ... probably unreasonable.

Maybe but some distros are more popular and I would expect someone
would have installed inn on them before now and know the requirements.

All I'm saying is that this could have been documented in the past as
people installed so make it easier for those in the future. Like I
said, I have it installed now so I don't really care either way, which
is probably what has been said in the past rather than "Well, I had to
install these to get it working...so let's add that to the
documentation".

I could probably bring up a fresh VM for Ubuntu and go through the
install and see what I need, but I'll probably end up installing a
bunch of stuff I also don't need to try and find the right dependency,
because they're not listed anywhere...vicious circle.

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:47:58 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:47 UTC

Le 29/01/2022 à 09:37, Nigel Reed a écrit :

> I could probably bring up a fresh VM for Ubuntu and go through the
> install and see what I need, but I'll probably end up installing a
> bunch of stuff I also don't need to try and find the right dependency,
> because they're not listed anywhere...vicious circle.
>
>

I try to document my installation steps, let alone to be able to make
them again some year years later, and when it's documented, why not make
it public?

http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.ConfigurerINN-2021

of course, it's often incomplete (steps forgotten) or inaccurate,
nothing like a real man page :-(, but better than nothing

more general (not nntp aimed)

http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.Server-2021

jdd

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