Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.

He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.

The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular repeater for
use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different places?

I suspect not, so then the rest of the questions are related to wi-fi.
For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming obstructions)
than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a campground but distance
is.

The power supply can be the batteries of the RV or 120VAC at the campground.
The laptop has an ethernet port on the side. And he has an old router too.

But his main problem is amplifying weak signal which most of the time he
says exists at the check-in desk but it's too low to be useful (phone calls
or wifi) at the camping spot.

When I looked for radio/antenna setups the first I found was these.
https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/rv-marine-wifi-antennas/wifi-rv-marine-antenna-captifi-ultra/

But then I found this at streakwave which is more cost effective.
https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m5-300-us-5ghz-powerbeam-m5-22dbi-300mm-us
https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m2-400-us-2-4ghz-powerbeam-m2-18dbi-400mm-us

The questions I have about those $80 setups is what's the difference to him
of a 400 mm horn versus a 300 mm long horn (100 mm does what?).

And given he doesn't know whether they'll have 2.4 or 5GHz, do they make a
powerbeam or bullet or rocket that is both 2.5GHz and 5GHz at the same time?

In the end, for around a hundred bucks, what would you recommend for an RV?

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mike wrote:
> Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
> cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.
>
> He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.
>
> The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular
> repeater for use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different
> places?

Best people to check with is the cell carrier you use. AIUI, the
microcells they offer tend to use your internet connection (so if it's
bad, the microcell will also be bad).

> For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
> obstructions) than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a
> campground but distance is.

Technically, 2.4 GHz is attenuated less than 5 GHz over the same
distance. That said, 2.4 GHz is a lot noisier, so it might be that even
though it attenuates; the 5 GHz signal will be more usable.

> But his main problem is amplifying weak signal which most of the time he
> says exists at the check-in desk but it's too low to be useful (phone
> calls or wifi) at the camping spot.

Yep - you'll need something with a pretty good directional antenna that
can do 802.11a/b/g/n (the 802.11ac stuff I'm aware of doesn't fallback
to 802.11n; which can be problematic at campgrounds). Best bet would be
CPE radios from Mikrotik, such as their SXTsq lineup.

>
> When I looked for radio/antenna setups the first I found was these.
> https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/rv-marine-wifi-antennas/wifi-rv-marine-antenna-captifi-ultra/
>
> But then I found this at streakwave which is more cost effective.
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m5-300-us-5ghz-powerbeam-m5-22dbi-300mm-us
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m2-400-us-2-4ghz-powerbeam-m2-18dbi-400mm-us

UBNT has gone pants-on-head stupid in the last few years. It's kind of
a shame -- they'd have been top recommendation 5 years ago. Also, the
powerbeams are not easy to align at all.

>
> The questions I have about those $80 setups is what's the difference
> to him of a 400 mm horn versus a 300 mm long horn (100 mm does
> what?).

It's the diameter of the dish, not the length of the horn.

>
> And given he doesn't know whether they'll have 2.4 or 5GHz, do they make a
> powerbeam or bullet or rocket that is both 2.5GHz and 5GHz at the same
> time?

No.

>
> In the end, for around a hundred bucks, what would you recommend for
> an RV?

A Mikrotik SXTsq Lite2 & 5. Should run you just under $100

A Groove52 might also do it -- but you'll need to purchase the antennas
separately (which'll drive up the cost a bit).

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|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On 2022-04-04, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
> UBNT has gone pants-on-head stupid in the last few years. It's kind of
> a shame -- they'd have been top recommendation 5 years ago. Also, the
> powerbeams are not easy to align at all.

I'm curious what makes you say that. Is this related to the Krebs
kerfuffle? We don't need to litigate that but I'm curious if there's
technical reasoning here beyond the hack and the Krebs incident.

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 at 10:22:44, mike <this@address.is.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually FOLLOW):
>Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
>cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.

Answering from UK, where things may be different.
>
>He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.
>
>The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular repeater for
>use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different places?

I presume that means for the mobile (UK)/cellular (US) network, i. e.
'phone coverage. I've never heard of such a repeater, though I can see
it might be plausible, in places where (say) a good mobile/cellular
signal might only be available at the peak of the chimney/roof or
something. Would presumably be nothing to do with the campsite owner
though (unless s/he has some arrangement with the network provider to
actually provide a base station/tower/whatever).

>I suspect not

Being somewhat at a disadvantage never having seen one, but trying to
think about how such a thing would work, I can't see why it would be
different for a home one versus an RV one, other than possibly what
power it runs on. Do such repeaters themselves connect to the
mobile/cellular network, and then act as a "base station" for any mobile
below them? Do they contain a SIM (or hardwired identity - I gather
SIMless 'phones are commoner in US [they're almost unknown here]), or
would they just relay any and all signals? Either way, I can't see
they'd be different for home and RV.

>, so then the rest of the questions are related to wi-fi.

By which I take it you mean a facility provided by the campsite owner
for the convenience of campers.

>For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming obstructions)
>than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a campground but distance
>is.

As Dan has said, in theory, 2.5 is less obscured by obstructions than 5;
conversely, in built-up areas, it's far more likely to be noisy -
microwave oven leakage, security cameras, and many other things. In what
I would imagine to be the rural location of most campsites, that might
be less the case though. On the whole the 5 GHz band is more recently
developed, so connections on it are likely to be faster/higher capacity
than the older band - if they work at all.
>
>The power supply can be the batteries of the RV or 120VAC at the campground.
>The laptop has an ethernet port on the side. And he has an old router too.
>
>But his main problem is amplifying weak signal which most of the time he
>says exists at the check-in desk but it's too low to be useful (phone calls
>or wifi) at the camping spot.
[]
I've no experience of active devices (actual amplifiers), or horns. I
have seen multi-element Yagi aerials (like a rooftop/pole-mounted TV
aerial, but with more elements - which is practical as the dimensions
are shorter; they're about a foot or two long) for the 2.4 GHz band;
they might exist for the 5, I've not looked. Not very expensive (I think
$5-$30); I think one of the main makers is Swan, who I think are
Australian (though their products are widely available online, certainly
in UK and I would guess in US). I would think it worth trying these out
before spending hundreds of dollars. The main practical difficulty is
how you connect them to the computer; they generally have a lead ending
with a little gold connector (F type I think it's called); laptops with
built-in wifi ('phones ditto) tend not to have an external socket. USB
wifi dongles that have a "rubber duck" aerial, it's often removable
leaving a suitable socket: such dongles are very cheap (few bucks,
especially if not dual-band).

Personally, I'd experiment with such a yagi aerial (buying such a dongle
if necessary - you'd need to disable the laptop's built-in wifi, or it
might be OK to leave it on, as it almost certainly won't receive
anything a long way from the site office).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

so that the vendors can "serve you better". As if you were a tennis ball, I
guess. - Wolf K, in alt.windows7.general, 2014-7-21

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meff wrote:
> On 2022-04-04, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>> UBNT has gone pants-on-head stupid in the last few years. It's kind of
>> a shame -- they'd have been top recommendation 5 years ago. Also, the
>> powerbeams are not easy to align at all.
>
> I'm curious what makes you say that. Is this related to the Krebs
> kerfuffle? We don't need to litigate that but I'm curious if there's
> technical reasoning here beyond the hack and the Krebs incident.

Those incidents, as well as the general decline of things. Maybe I'm
just bitter, since when I started using their stuff, they were in a
pretty solid upswing. Seems they skipped right past "leveling off" into
"downswing".

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|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

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J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 at 10:22:44, mike <this@address.is.invalid> wrote (my
> responses usually FOLLOW):
>>For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
>>obstructions) than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a
>>campground but distancei is.
>
> As Dan has said, in theory, 2.5 is less obscured by obstructions than 5;
> conversely, in built-up areas, it's far more likely to be noisy -
> microwave oven leakage, security cameras, and many other things. In what
> I would imagine to be the rural location of most campsites, that might
> be less the case though. On the whole the 5 GHz band is more recently
> developed, so connections on it are likely to be faster/higher capacity
> than the older band - if they work at all.

Don't forget that "campgrounds" can also be densely populated
(especially on weekends) with people looking to get away. A
modest-sized campground may have 100 sites (or even more)...

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On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 at 13:26:55, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote (my
responses usually FOLLOW):
>J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 at 10:22:44, mike <this@address.is.invalid> wrote (my
>> responses usually FOLLOW):
>>>For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
>>>obstructions) than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a
>>>campground but distancei is.
>>
>> As Dan has said, in theory, 2.5 is less obscured by obstructions than 5;
>> conversely, in built-up areas, it's far more likely to be noisy -
>> microwave oven leakage, security cameras, and many other things. In what
>> I would imagine to be the rural location of most campsites, that might
>> be less the case though. On the whole the 5 GHz band is more recently
>> developed, so connections on it are likely to be faster/higher capacity
>> than the older band - if they work at all.
>
>Don't forget that "campgrounds" can also be densely populated
>(especially on weekends) with people looking to get away. A
>modest-sized campground may have 100 sites (or even more)...
>
>
>
True! Though probably won't have the security cameras, etc., and other
"noise sources", you'd get in a more built-up area, and presumably most
people who "get away" to them will be out walking, or similar. But I
suppose if there's sudden bad weather or something, there might be lots
sitting in their RVs trying to use the net - possibly enough to swamp
the 11 or 13 channels on the 2.4 MHz band. Though again, whether enough
of them would have the ability to use any such facility based at the
site office, rather than using data on the cellular/mobile network
directly ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here: this is the war room!" (Dr. Strangelove)

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J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 at 13:26:55, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote (my
> responses usually FOLLOW):
>>J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 at 10:22:44, mike <this@address.is.invalid> wrote (my
>>> responses usually FOLLOW):
>>>>For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
>>>>obstructions) than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a
>>>>campground but distancei is.
>>>
>>> As Dan has said, in theory, 2.5 is less obscured by obstructions than 5;
>>> conversely, in built-up areas, it's far more likely to be noisy -
>>> microwave oven leakage, security cameras, and many other things. In what
>>> I would imagine to be the rural location of most campsites, that might
>>> be less the case though. On the whole the 5 GHz band is more recently
>>> developed, so connections on it are likely to be faster/higher capacity
>>> than the older band - if they work at all.
>>
>>Don't forget that "campgrounds" can also be densely populated
>>(especially on weekends) with people looking to get away. A
>>modest-sized campground may have 100 sites (or even more)...
>>
>>
>>
> True! Though probably won't have the security cameras, etc., and other
> "noise sources", you'd get in a more built-up area, and presumably most
> people who "get away" to them will be out walking, or similar. But I
> suppose if there's sudden bad weather or something, there might be lots
> sitting in their RVs trying to use the net - possibly enough to swamp
> the 11 or 13 channels on the 2.4 MHz band. Though again, whether enough
> of them would have the ability to use any such facility based at the
> site office, rather than using data on the cellular/mobile network
> directly ...

Sort of. There are a few key points that can become problematic:

1. If someone's connected to the AP in the office (whatever), it'll
constantly try connecting if it's "in range". This can tie up the AP for
other people.

2. If it's just an AP for the office (e.g. there's a game-room or
laundry or other reason to specifically put wifi there), trying to
connect through exterior walls can be very hit-or-miss (metal-foil in
the insulation, efficient windows, etc all tend to block RF - I mean,
it's exactly the same reason you get fuzzy TV or radio if all you have
is the rabbit-ears...).

3. If it's just some generic "consumer" kit, it's really only going to
be able to handle ~2 dozen devices anyway (limited hardware resources)

4. People utilizing their phones as wifi hotspots that happen to collide
with the office AP, by virtue of being far enough away that they think
whichever channel is available; and creating local contention issues.

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On 2022-04-05, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
> Those incidents, as well as the general decline of things. Maybe I'm
> just bitter, since when I started using their stuff, they were in a
> pretty solid upswing. Seems they skipped right past "leveling off" into
> "downswing".

Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure that they haven't found a
technical deficiency with their equipment yet.

On 05-04-2022 15:48 Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> 4. People utilizing their phones as wifi hotspots that happen to collide
> with the office AP, by virtue of being far enough away that they think
> whichever channel is available; and creating local contention issues.

Do they make a cellular repeater that can be purchased for <$200 and then it
can be used in multiple places which can pick up low (maybe -110dBm?)
cellular signal which can be amplified by the repeater's second unit to
allow the cellphone to be used as a personal hotspot inside the RV?

I suspect it's illegal (FCC rules?) to move a cellular repeater, so that
might not be an option but maybe someone knows more about that option?

On 05-04-2022 21:58 meff <email@example.com> wrote:

>> Those incidents, as well as the general decline of things. Maybe I'm
>> just bitter, since when I started using their stuff, they were in a
>> pretty solid upswing. Seems they skipped right past "leveling off" into
>> "downswing".
>
> Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure that they haven't found a
> technical deficiency with their equipment yet.

He won't know ahead of time if it's 5GHz or 2.4GHz with the best signal.

But I don't think he cares if it's Engenius or Mikrotik or Ubiquiti
equipment as long as it's around less than about $200 and if it can get him
enough signal strength on send/receive to connect to the "free" wifi at a
typical campground.

To do that it will probably need a high gain dual band radio & antenna (if
they make them in dual bands that is). Do they?

He'll probably need a high sensitivity receiver and a high transmit power
(although I'm not sure which is more important but I think the antenna gain
and the receiver sensitivity are more important than the transmit power
because in the end he's limited to whatever the legal EIRP happens to be).

Do Engenius, Mikrotik or Ubiquiti make a dual band radio and antenna with
legal EIRP and decent receiver sensitivity in the approx <$200 range?

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mike wrote:
> On 05-04-2022 15:48 Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>
>> 4. People utilizing their phones as wifi hotspots that happen to collide
>> with the office AP, by virtue of being far enough away that they think
>> whichever channel is available; and creating local contention issues.
>
> Do they make a cellular repeater that can be purchased for <$200 and
> then it can be used in multiple places which can pick up low (maybe
> -110dBm?) cellular signal which can be amplified by the repeater's
> second unit to allow the cellphone to be used as a personal hotspot
> inside the RV?

The microcells that I am aware of require an internet connection as
their backhaul. They're not "repeaters" that listen for / re-transmit
LTE signals. Offhand, I'm not actually aware of any "cellular
repeaters" in general.

Not 100% sure what their internals do, but most likely is they utilize a
VPN or otherwise link back to the cellCo's internal VoIP routing
network.

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Dan Purgert wrote:

> The microcells that I am aware of require an internet connection as
> their backhaul.

The microcell (or femtocell) is connected to the home router.
It won't work if you don't already have internet.

You plug one end into the wall socket and the other into the router.
https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/guide-to-small-cells-femtocell-picocell-and-microcells/

> They're not "repeaters" that listen for / re-transmit
> LTE signals. Offhand, I'm not actually aware of any "cellular
> repeaters" in general.

The repeater is usually called a cell signal booster.
It is NOT connected to the home router.
It works without internet.

You plug one unit into the wall socket and place it in a high window.
You plug the other unit into the wall socket and put it deeper down.
https://www.waveform.com/pages/att-signal-boosters

> Not 100% sure what their internals do, but most likely is they utilize a
> VPN or otherwise link back to the cellCo's internal VoIP routing
> network.

Cell Phone Signal Booster vs Femtocell
https://www.ubersignal.com/blog/guide-cell-phone-extenders-range-extenders-network-extenders/
https://www.signalbooster.com/blogs/news/femtocell-vs-cell-phone-signal-booster
https://www.weboost.com/blog/cell-phone-signal-booster-or-femtocell
https://blog.router-switch.com/2020/12/wifi-booster-vs-wifi-extender-any-differences-between-them/
https://www.signalbooster.com/pages/att-microcell-tmobile-cellspot-versus-cell-signal-booster
https://cellphoneboosterstore.com/tech-news-and-blog/cell-phone-booster-vs-microcell-or-femtocell-signal-boosters/
https://cellboosteronline.com/mobile-network-booster/
https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/guide-to-small-cells-femtocell-picocell-and-microcells/

They go by different names like cellular hotspot, network extenders, signal
boosters, range extenders, signal repeaters, femtocells and microcells but
the difference is one is cellular on both ends while the other is cellular
on one end and Internet on the other.

Despite what it says in some of the articles above, neither is hardwired and
neither requires an external coax or antenna. They're self contained boxes.

Plug and play. No consumer setup. They're the size of a home router.

All main US carriers used to give out boosters (which boost their signal)
but they now prefer femtocells (which use your internet for the connection).

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:22:44 +0530, mike <this@address.is.invalid> wrote:

> Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
> cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.
>
> He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.
>
> The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular repeater for
> use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different places?

Bad thing is RV campgrounds are notorious with having horrible wifi.

Most of the time it is due to wifi's hidden node problem:
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_node_problem>

So even if he has a high-gain antenna and good rx sensitivity,
the other campers with shit equipment will step all over him.

He may have better luck getting a directional cellular antenna.

Maybe this $100 Doorking 1514-014?
<https://www.pssstore.net/products/doorking-1514-014-cellular-directional-antenna-kit>

Or this 4dB to 5dB cellular omni?
<https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/wilson-electronics-omnidirectional-cellular-antennas/>

This $40 cell antenna is seems to cover the cellular 3G 4G 5G LTEWi-F bands.
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/313916354184>

How does a boost of 100 decibels of your cellular signal sound to you?

By Sascha Segan
Updated February 25, 2022

The Best Cell Phone Signal Boosters for 2022

Cellular signal boosters use big antennas to improve coverage in your home
and car. These are the top-performing boosters for large homes, small homes,
apartments, and vehicles.

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/best-cell-phone-signal-boosters

On 4/3/2022 9:52 PM, mike wrote:
> Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
> cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.
>
> He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.
>
> The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular repeater
> for
> use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different places?
> I suspect not, so then the rest of the questions are related to wi-fi.
> For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
> obstructions)
> than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a campground but distance
> is.
>
> The power supply can be the batteries of the RV or 120VAC at the
> campground.
> The laptop has an ethernet port on the side. And he has an old router too.
>
> But his main problem is amplifying weak signal which most of the time he
> says exists at the check-in desk but it's too low to be useful (phone calls
> or wifi) at the camping spot.
>
> When I looked for radio/antenna setups the first I found was these.
> https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/rv-marine-wifi-antennas/wifi-rv-marine-antenna-captifi-ultra/
>
>
> But then I found this at streakwave which is more cost effective.
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m5-300-us-5ghz-powerbeam-m5-22dbi-300mm-us
>
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m2-400-us-2-4ghz-powerbeam-m2-18dbi-400mm-us
>
>
> The questions I have about those $80 setups is what's the difference to him
> of a 400 mm horn versus a 300 mm long horn (100 mm does what?).
>
> And given he doesn't know whether they'll have 2.4 or 5GHz, do they make a
> powerbeam or bullet or rocket that is both 2.5GHz and 5GHz at the same
> time?
>
> In the end, for around a hundred bucks, what would you recommend for an RV?

I met a guy early in the days of WiFi that taped a USB Wifi device to a
Dish TV antenna dish at the focal point to make a very directional WiFi
connection. If I had such a need I would probably do some such
experimenting.

On 4/3/2022 11:52 PM, mike wrote:
> Friend uses an RV where campgrounds have varying degrees of wi-fi and
> cellular signal depending on the campsite chosen.
>
> He asked me for advice where I would like to ask GENERAL questions of you.
>
> The first is for cellular which is whether they sell a cellular repeater
> for
> use not at a home but in an RV that moves to different places?
> I suspect not, so then the rest of the questions are related to wi-fi.
> For distance, is it true that 2.5GHz travels farther (assuming
> obstructions)
> than does 5GHz? Noise shouldn't be a problem in a campground but distance
> is.
>
> The power supply can be the batteries of the RV or 120VAC at the
> campground.
> The laptop has an ethernet port on the side. And he has an old router too.
>
> But his main problem is amplifying weak signal which most of the time he
> says exists at the check-in desk but it's too low to be useful (phone calls
> or wifi) at the camping spot.
>
> When I looked for radio/antenna setups the first I found was these.
> https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/rv-marine-wifi-antennas/wifi-rv-marine-antenna-captifi-ultra/
>
>
> But then I found this at streakwave which is more cost effective.
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m5-300-us-5ghz-powerbeam-m5-22dbi-300mm-us
>
> https://www.streakwave.com/ubiquiti-networks-pbe-m2-400-us-2-4ghz-powerbeam-m2-18dbi-400mm-us
>
>
> The questions I have about those $80 setups is what's the difference to him
> of a 400 mm horn versus a 300 mm long horn (100 mm does what?).
>
> And given he doesn't know whether they'll have 2.4 or 5GHz, do they make a
> powerbeam or bullet or rocket that is both 2.5GHz and 5GHz at the same
> time?
>
> In the end, for around a hundred bucks, what would you recommend for an RV?

https://www.starlink.com/rv

Lynn