I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.

This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.

For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.

If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.

But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.

What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

On 5/30/22 11:56, this is what John Robertson wrote:
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>
> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?
Would asking what they would write a letter with work? A letter to print and either hand deliver or mail in an envelope.
If they say notepad then they're off the deep end.

AL

On 5/30/2022 10:56 AM, John Robertson wrote:
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>
> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?

What client do they use to access their email and then what is their
default browser.

After explaining these things to them many times, most of my family
still cannot answer either question properly.

On Mon, 30 May 2022 09:56:15 -0600, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
wrote:

>I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
>if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
>This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
>For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
>noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
>If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
>hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>
>But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
>so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
>graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
>What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?

What browser do you use?

If the answer is

What's a browser?

or

I don't know.

or

Edge.

it's a noob.

In article <t72pe6$2e6f5$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Robertson wrote...
>
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>
> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?

Went for an interview, many, many years ago as a Unix administrator/developer.
Got there (big corporation) only to be told they'd shifted policy, and all the
Unix jobs had been withdrawn. But would I like to be considered for the
Windows/Windows-Server development team? At that time, apart from some very
basic Word and Excel on NT 4.1, I had almost no clue about any aspect of
Windows (my Sparcstation blew those silly little boxes out of the water). I
told them I didn't really know anything about Windows or Microsoft stuff. One
of the interviewers asked - "just humour me" - "if you had to network Unix and
Windows PCs, how would you do it?". That was probably the *only* thing I knew.
"I'd put an entry in the LMHosts file." Got the job, I later heard.

Big mistake on both sides...

Oddly, after a dramatic office reorganisation it turned out I was the only
person on the right contract terms to be departmental manager, and after
another reorganisation I was the most senior person in my reporting line in the
UK. Just goes to show the old truth that the most incompetent get promoted out
of the way until they can do no more harm. Meanwhile I don't think I've *ever*
learned so fast, certainly technically, and not least that "management" is both
difficult and rewarding if you get it right - which it seems I did.

As for the noob question: I'd ask what browser are you using (as others have
said). And/or - what version of Windows are you on?

--

Phil, London

"John Robertson" <spam@flippers.com> wrote

| If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert

My term for that is "sucker". But a lot of people
in business are forced to use PS, so it's not so clearcut.
So maybe I'd have 3 categories: sucker, business user, and
"Mom bought it for me".

Of those 3, it could very well be that not one of them has
ever heard of the Registry or Control Panel. With the development
of so-called "asset management", there's no need for people
to even understand the file system. PS will find their photos
and present them in a view window. In fact, with PS rental
the only copy may be online, in proprietary format, and there's
a good chance the PS sucker doesn't even know that. They'll
find out when they cancel the rental and discover they can't
find their pictures. And that friendly window that used find the pictures
for them is gone. "Hey, what happened to my picture window?
I was just sitting here, having a cool work flow with my asset
management, then I cancelled Photoshop and, poof! My workflow
is missing and my picture window is gone! Should I ask Siri or Alexa?

Maybe a good question is to ask what version of Windows
they have. If they provide a real version name then they're fairly
handy. If they say "Acer" then they're medium handy, because
they know what "Windows" means and they didn't say, "I don't
know, but there's a picture of an apple with a bite taken out of it."

Then you ask what browser. Do they know, or do they say, "Oh,
that icon? That's the Internet."

I find that very few people know what software is installed. That
way of looking at it isn't relevant for them. If they can't see images
then they'll ask you to fix their computer so they can see images.
But few people actually make the distinction of an image file. They
don't download from a camera and edit photos. They take a picture
with their cellphone and email it. The recipient then knows the picture
as "In Ed's email." Where's your email? "I don't know. I just go to my
email." Usually it turns out they mean going to gmail in a browser. So
the Windows file system now has almost no relevance for the
average person.

Even many apparent experts know very little. I talk to people who've
used MS Word for work since DOS days. I ask where they keep their
DOC files. "DOC files?" Yeah, where do you keep files that you write
in MS Word? "Oh. I don't know. But Word knows." Often those are
people who know how to open a portal to another dimension by
pressing 5 keys at once. They might even write macros. But they've
never left MS Word.

"Philip Herlihy" <PhillipHerlihy@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote

| I was the most senior person in my reporting line in the
| UK. Just goes to show the old truth that the most incompetent get
promoted out
| of the way until they can do no more harm.

OK, I'd like to guess the mystery poster. Is your real
name "Boris Johnson"?

On 5/30/2022 11:56 AM, John Robertson wrote:
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>
> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?

The scenario automatically defines a narrow band.

---------------------------------
I know too much already
---------------------------------
I know a moderate amount \
of stuff, but I will phone \___ John gets phoned here...
John for a particular question /
---------------------------------
I know so little about
computers, I won't bother John
because he's so cranky.
---------------------------------

And using a phone for tech support, is
pretty well useless, so it's not going
to end well in any case.

Modern interfaces do not work well as
"wordy descriptions". You need a means to
exchange graphics, and establish context quickly.

A single baseline image helps establish whether they're
even on Windows or not. With a baseline image, they
can say "well, no, mine doesn't have the Start in
the corner, the Start is nearer the center.

You must not show people too many pictures, because
they go into "slug mode" if you do that :-) The
answer is not a Recipe either. Do not dictate an
answer as a thousand step process. The best leverage
comes from providing some technical terms they can use
to sort it out themselves.

You might say, "well, if you have the image open in
Photoshop, you use the Unsharp mask first, to make
the picture less fuzzy, then use the Scale to reduce
the image size". Because you're on a phone, and you
don't want this to take hours and hours. That's for your
benefit, but also for their benefit.

If the user has never used Photoshop at all, you would stop
dead in your tracks. The learning curve for
Photoshop is such, you would not do all the
tutorials Adobe provides, by phone. Even GIMP would
be a bitch to teach someone, over the phone. I would
not do that. It took me long enough to find a few
things in GIMP myself.

So in addition to the scenario being "self selecting",
like in the top diagram, there is the additional selector
of not even trying to do certain things over the phone.
And the answer is not "I'll drive over and help you"
either.

When my mother wanted to know about the computer, she
took a Continuing Education course. Which surprised the
hell out of me (I wouldn't have even thought about
such a thing being useful/available, but she figured
it out).

When a guy down the street wanted to know how to use
Excel, I knew he'd been doing accounting in various
scenarios. Imagine my shock, when I set up a few simple
things, and the idea of adding numbers together just
isn't clicking. I'm like "WTF is going on here". If
he's been doing accounting, surely basic arithmetic
analogies (a column of numbers on an Excel sheet)
should be clicking. But I was getting nothing.
No recognition at all, of the task on the screen.
There is no limit to how "low" that low is :-)
I was stumped as to what to do next.

Imagine if I'd been doing that over the phone.
The level of puzzlement on my end of the phone,
as to why the whole idea of adding numbers was
not clicking. But by being in person, I could
look at his face... and see something. That
"deer in the headlights" thing. Because there had
been stories of him doing accounting for people,
I thought surely the lights would come on
and somebody would be home in there.

Summary: If we draw a Venn diagram of all the constraints,
there is hardly any intersection. It's pretty
difficult, in 25 words or less, to give someone
a satisfying answer like that (actually help them,
without a thousand step dictation). Too many things
can go wrong, including the "deer in the headlights"
thing.

Paul

In article <t737fd$2bl$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>
> Of those 3, it could very well be that not one of them has
> ever heard of the Registry or Control Panel. With the development
> of so-called "asset management", there's no need for people
> to even understand the file system.

that's a feature. instead of digging through files and folders hoping
to find what they think might be there, they can search for content,
such as specific people, places, etc.

> PS will find their photos
> and present them in a view window.

actually, bridge does that.

> In fact, with PS rental
> the only copy may be online, in proprietary format, and there's
> a good chance the PS sucker doesn't even know that.They'll
> find out when they cancel the rental and discover they can't
> find their pictures.

absolutely false.

this has been explained to you countless times and in several different
newsgroups. why do you continue repeating what is demonstrably wrong?

photos are on the user's computers, tablets and phones, in whatever
format the user want, including jpeg, tiff and png.

the photoshop format is publicly documented, with numerous third party
apps able to read (and in some cases write).

photoshop elements, the consumer version of photoshop, which is *not*
subscription, can also be used.

all edits are done locally, same as its always been. editing images in
the cloud would have a significant speed impact.

cloud storage is *optional* and is useful for sharing photos among
multiple devices as well as multiple users.

canceling the subscription converts to a free membership, which has a
2gb limit for cloud. in the event the user has more than 2gb, there's a
30 day grace period for the user (not adobe) to prune it down.

> And that friendly window that used find the pictures
> for them is gone. "Hey, what happened to my picture window?
> I was just sitting here, having a cool work flow with my asset
> management, then I cancelled Photoshop and, poof! My workflow
> is missing and my picture window is gone! Should I ask Siri or Alexa?

you should ask people who actually use photoshop, not that you'll
listen to any answers, because you haven't in the past.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 30 May 2022 19:51:12 +0100, Philip
Herlihy <PhillipHerlihy@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote:

>In article <t72pe6$2e6f5$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Robertson wrote...
>>
>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
>> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.
>>
>> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>>
>> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
>> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>>
>> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
>> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.
>>
>> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
>> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
>> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>>
>> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?
>
>Went for an interview, many, many years ago as a Unix administrator/developer.
>Got there (big corporation) only to be told they'd shifted policy, and all the
>Unix jobs had been withdrawn. But would I like to be considered for the
>Windows/Windows-Server development team? At that time, apart from some very
>basic Word and Excel on NT 4.1, I had almost no clue about any aspect of
>Windows (my Sparcstation blew those silly little boxes out of the water). I
>told them I didn't really know anything about Windows or Microsoft stuff. One
>of the interviewers asked - "just humour me" - "if you had to network Unix and
>Windows PCs, how would you do it?". That was probably the *only* thing I knew.
>"I'd put an entry in the LMHosts file." Got the job, I later heard.
>
>Big mistake on both sides...
>
>Oddly, after a dramatic office reorganisation it turned out I was the only
>person on the right contract terms to be departmental manager, and after
>another reorganisation I was the most senior person in my reporting line in the
>UK. Just goes to show the old truth that the most incompetent get promoted out
>of the way until they can do no more harm. Meanwhile I don't think I've *ever*
>learned so fast, certainly technically, and not least that "management" is both
>difficult and rewarding if you get it right - which it seems I did.
>
>As for the noob question: I'd ask what browser are you using (as others have
>said). And/or - what version of Windows are you on?

I have sort of the opposite story. 39 years ago, moving from NYC to
another big city I'll leave nameless in this post in case any of them
are reading. I hadn't yet written any programs that -- I forget the
terms -- wrote to terminals yet, and got answers back from a human user,
but I knew that was going to be very popular, so put on my resume that
I'd done it. Came to the new city, got a job, got two expensive books
on the topic, one specifically about IMS, took them back to NYC to pack,
didn't read the books.

Started work, after a month assigned a project just like that, just me,
with one year to finish it.

So I'm working on one of these terminal/online type programs and it's
going slow. After 45 minutes, I asked myself, "How come I can't do this
when I've done it so many times before?" and then I realized, I'd never
done it before. I really believed that I had.

But in another I was past the hard part and everything went well after
that. So I really only wasted an hour.

As an aside, 3 months in or so, the boss asked me which of the 8
programs were finished. I said, None of them. I work on one until I
have a problem, then I work on another and that makes the solution for
the first one appear. He bought it. And it was true. I finished
completely 2 days before my deadline and everything worked.

On 31/05/2022 3:56 am, John Robertson wrote:
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.

Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
Irfanview ?

> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're a
> noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> If they answer with PhotoShop, then I treat them as an expert, but it's not
> hard to figure out expert levels so I'm concentrating on finding the noobs.

If they answer with Photoshop I think that's an OTT way to simply view
photos.

> But sometimes they tell me they never bother to look at pictures or video,
> so I need another question to ask them to figure out in a single quick but
> graceful test whether they're Windows PC noobs or not.
>
> What graceful noob question can I ask for those who don't view images?

"Are your updates set to automatic ?". "Is your account an Administrator
Account ?".

geoff

Philip Herlihy wrote:

> One
> of the interviewers asked - "just humour me" - "if you had to network Unix and
> Windows PCs, how would you do it?". That was probably the *only* thing I knew.
> "I'd put an entry in the LMHosts file." Got the job, I later heard.

Wow. A blast from the past.

I started on VMS and then went to Masscomp & then SunOS and then Solaris
too (where the Sparcs were the little "pizza boxes" as I recall).

I forgot about the LMHosts file though.
It has been so long, I don't remember what it did. Looking it up...
*WHAT IS THE LMHOSTS FILE AND WHY DO I NEED IT?*
<https://kb.ossi-usa.com/knowledge-base/what-is-the-lmhosts-file-and-why-do-i-need-it/>
"The lmhosts file is a text file that maps Internet Protocol (IP)
addresses to NetBIOS names of remote servers with which you wish
to communicate over the TCP/IP protocol."

Back in the day, I used to interconnect Windows to Mac to Solaris using
Samba on Solaris, Columbia AppleTalk Protocol (CAPS) on Mac, and SMB/Cifs
on Windows.

That setup would allow secretaries to access the files on Windows, and the
Marketing people to access the same files on the Mac, and the developers to
access the same files on Linux.

The bitch was how Apple broke files into a resource fork and data fork,
and, of course, the bane of text files, how Windows & Linux handled line
feeds and eof characters.

Other than those two issues, it worked rather well as I have been
interconnecting operating systems ever since them with aplomb.
<https://i.postimg.cc/J7cSYhhg/vysor20.jpg>
a. Windows (great at interoperability)
b. iOS (sucks at interoperability)
c. Android (great at interoperability)
d. Linux (great at interoperability)

1. Android works out of the box <https://i.postimg.cc/9MGdc2s7/files10.jpg>
2. So does Linux out of the box <https://i.postimg.cc/s2x0f9Js/files14.jpg>
3. Even Apple iPods do it <https://i.postimg.cc/fRtZFGSt/sharepod01.jpg>
4. iOS? <the only known possible solution is an iFuse port on Windows>

As for a question, I would ask them if they know how to run a search.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 2022-05-30, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:
> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask them
> if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge level.

If you ask them to check icons in the system tray and have no idea what
you are talking about you can be reasonably certain they are totally,
completely, hopelessly clueless.

--
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There is no "climate crisis" -- https://climatedepot.com
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> posted this
via news:t72pe6$2e6f5$1@news.mixmin.net:

> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
> level.

I just talked to a person who has a graduate degree in Photoshop (Graphic
Design) and a master's degree in computer engineering. He currently
supervises the regional office of a national corporation specializing in
CAD, architecture, and mechanical engineering (graphics and 3D rendering)
using various Linux, Mac, and Windows (10 & 11) OSs on several networks.
He's also a computer systems analyst, engineer, and network administrator.

To test your little test, I asked him if he had Irfanview installed on any
of his computer systems.

He said, "Urbanview? What the fuuk are you talking about, Bucky? Just
because you're banging my little sister doesn't mean I want to play vague
riddle games with you."

To be fair, we had been drinking a bit in a rowdy bar... instead of my
using the phone to apply the "test". I believe he might have been
subconsciously a little jealous of me because his sister is quite a
luscious, voluptuous, drop-dead beautiful babe and sexual relations between
siblings simply is not tolerated in our society. Besides, I doubt if she'd
be interested in him whereas she has/had me.

The moral of the story is: "While knowledge is a variable that cannot be
measured in terms of freeware graphics programs, Irfanview can help suss
out deeply suppressed inclinations of incest."

Hope this hleps.

--

I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^;

And *NO*, that is *NOT* a Jedi Light Saber I have in my pocket!

But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy to see you either.

On 30/05/2022 17:56, John Robertson wrote:

"Is there a picture of an apple on your screen"?

"Roger Blake" <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote

| If you ask them to check icons in the system tray and have no idea what
| you are talking about you can be reasonably certain they are totally,
| completely, hopelessly clueless.
|

I doubt that many people other than programmers know
the term "system tray". It's a nonsensical phrase, not normally
used or needed by people using a computer. And how can you
have a tray that's vertical and flat? That's called a shelf or
a sign. System shelf might at least make more sense, but it's
a term that only programmers could think makes sense. It's
a silly pretense of 3-D. It's not a shelf or a tray. It's just a
defined area with icons.

You might be able to glean some sense of their expertise
by asking what icons are in the lower right, but those icons
are usually not very relevant, anyway. With Win10, even less
so. They've been gradually making the icons less informative
and less self-explanatory... Which is why no one knows about
those icons.

But it sounds like a good trick question for a Microsoft HR
person interviewing employee prospects. "What is
the meaning of the unrecognizable line drawing icon in the
Windows 10 system tray?"

The correct answer would have to be "Which one?"

Then if the job prospect gets that right they could narrow
it down, to test for exceptional expertise: "You know, the
one that looks kind of like a bicycle that's been in a car
crash, on top of an empty produce crate." At that point, if
they guess then you know you have a "super user". So you
try the final question:

"How do you choose which icons to display in thew lower right?"

Correct answer: "Can't be done. You can only pretend to have
a choice by using the option to customize notifications, but those
settings are ignored by Windows since XP."

"Congratulations, sir. You're our new head of engineering."

On 6/2/22 08:23, this is what Mayayana wrote:
> "How do you choose which icons to display in thew lower right?"
>
> Correct answer: "Can't be done. You can only pretend to have
> a choice by using the option to customize notifications, but those
> settings are ignored by Windows since XP."
I beg to differ. I've been able to change which icons show in the lower right. They move from the 'tray' to the ^
arrow if you don't display them.

Al

El Mon, 30 May 2022 09:56:15 -0600, John Robertson escribió:

> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
> level.
>
> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>
> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're
> a noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.

Is this a joke? I am far from "noob" and haven't a clue what I view
images and videos with. Whatever appears when the filename is double-
clicked.

Hang on, I'll just try...On this linux box, the photo viewer is "Xviewer"
and, hang on, videos open in something called "Celluloid". There's a
windows box next to me, but I rarely fire that up and right now can't be
bothered.

If you were to ask me what I *edit* stuff in, that would be a different
saucepan of tadpoles.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

El Tue, 31 May 2022 09:48:39 +1200, geoff escribió:

> On 31/05/2022 3:56 am, John Robertson wrote:
>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>> level.
>
> Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
> Irfanview ?

I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
have a copy of it.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On 6/2/22 09:06, this is what Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Mon, 30 May 2022 09:56:15 -0600, John Robertson escribió:
>
>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>> level.
>>
>> This is a "graceful" test (without them knowing why I ask) of the noobs.
>>
>> For the noobs, if they don't have Irfanview, I ask them what they use to
>> view pictures and videos and if they don't even know that, then they're
>> a noob for sure so I know to treat them as noobs and I ask no further.
>
> Is this a joke? I am far from "noob" and haven't a clue what I view
> images and videos with. Whatever appears when the filename is double-
> clicked.
>
> Hang on, I'll just try...On this linux box, the photo viewer is "Xviewer"
> and, hang on, videos open in something called "Celluloid". There's a
> windows box next to me, but I rarely fire that up and right now can't be
> bothered.
>
> If you were to ask me what I *edit* stuff in, that would be a different
> saucepan of tadpoles.
>
I edit photos with GIMP. But GIMP is available on Win and Linux.
And as Paul just said, both OSs associate an appropriate program by filetypes. Granted you can change the system
default, but a noob would not know the program and just know "I double click the file".

On 2 Jun 2022 13:11:22 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Tue, 31 May 2022 09:48:39 +1200, geoff escribió:
>
>> On 31/05/2022 3:56 am, John Robertson wrote:
>>> I often am asked to help people over the phone on Windows where I ask
>>> them if they have Irfanview installed as a test of their PC knowledge
>>> level.
>>
>> Why would anybody, even very familiar with Win, inherently know of
>> Irfanview ?
>
>I'd never heard of it before it was mentioned here and I certainly don't
>have a copy of it.

I've known and used IrfanView for many years. I don't remember how I
first heard of it, but it was probably in a newsgroup.

El Thu, 02 Jun 2022 09:37:26 -0400, Big Al escribió:

> I edit photos with GIMP. But GIMP is available on Win and Linux.
> And as Paul just said, both OSs associate an appropriate program by
> filetypes. Granted you can change the system default, but a noob would
> not know the program and just know "I double click the file".

Or a non noob, which is what I was saying. Every OS these days comes with
default viewers installed, so you don't need to know what they're called.
I remember in the bad old days having to install programs from floppy
disks just to do one thing, then remove it to make room for something
else.

If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR etc.
then open the file from within.

Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On 2 Jun 2022 14:32:20 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Thu, 02 Jun 2022 09:37:26 -0400, Big Al escribió:
>
>> I edit photos with GIMP. But GIMP is available on Win and Linux.
>> And as Paul just said, both OSs associate an appropriate program by
>> filetypes. Granted you can change the system default, but a noob would
>> not know the program and just know "I double click the file".
>
>
>Or a non noob, which is what I was saying. Every OS these days comes with
>default viewers installed, so you don't need to know what they're called.
>I remember in the bad old days having to install programs from floppy
>disks just to do one thing, then remove it to make room for something
>else.
>
>If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR etc.
>then open the file from within.

An interesting list. What's interesting to me is that I don't know
what you mean by PSE or LR, and that I run neither Gimp nor Microsoft
Word (I think WordPerfect is much better).

>Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?

Someone who might want to know about alternatives that might be better
than what he's using.

In article <nsrh9htf4e8i8img7cpfea9aia1vddprcm@4ax.com>, Ken Blake
<Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> >
> >If I want to actually *do* something, then I open PSE/Gimp/MSWord/LR etc.
> >then open the file from within.
>
> An interesting list. What's interesting to me is that I don't know
> what you mean by PSE or LR, and that I run neither Gimp nor Microsoft
> Word (I think WordPerfect is much better).

pse = photoshop elements
lr = lightroom

> >Who cares what the default jpg viewer is?
>
>
> Someone who might want to know about alternatives that might be better
> than what he's using.

not needed if the default meets their needs, which it does for most
people.

On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 08:56:44 -0400, Big Al wrote:
>
> On 6/2/22 08:23, this is what Mayayana wrote:
> > "How do you choose which icons to display in thew lower right?"
> >
> > Correct answer: "Can't be done. You can only pretend to have
> > a choice by using the option to customize notifications, but those
> > settings are ignored by Windows since XP."
> I beg to differ. I've been able to change which icons show in the lower right. They move from the 'tray' to the ^
> arrow if you don't display them.

That matches my experience, in Windows 7, 8.1, and 10.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...