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computers / alt.internet.wireless / Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

SubjectAuthor
* How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the tiWally J
+* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
|+* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thNewyana2
||`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
|| `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thNewyana2
||  +- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||  +- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
||  `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   +* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressPaul
||   |`- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   +* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
||   |+* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAlan Browne
||   ||`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   || `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
||   ||  +* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   ||  |`- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
||   ||  +- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thFrank Slootweg
||   ||  `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   ||   `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
||   ||    `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   ||     `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   ||      +- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   ||      +* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   ||      |`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
||   ||      | `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   ||      |  `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
||   ||      |   `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   ||      `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
||   |`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   | `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
||   +- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressCarlos E. R.
||   `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
|`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
| `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thR.Wieser
+* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAndy Burns
|+* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP addressAlan Browne
||`- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
|`- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
+- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thZaghadka
`* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thZaghadka
 `* Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thWally J
  `- Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of thZaghadka

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How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<uh7kur$3mitu$1@dont-email.me>

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From: walterjo...@invalid.nospam (Wally J)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:33 UTC

*How did Malibu Media 100% determine GPS LOCATION of an IP address*
*WITHOUT contacting the ISP*?

<https://www.csoonline.com/article/546518/ip-address-does-not-identify-a-person-judge-tells-copyright-troll-in-bittorrent-ca.html>

A discussion today on the phone ngs was about copyright infringement and I
went to look up the fact nobody has ever been successful in a US court case
for torrenting suits - when I ran into this (unsuccessful as usual) case by
the infamous Malibu Media (whose lawyers were previously disbarred).

The question I'm asking isn't about the merits of that case itself.

It's only about the software they used to geolocate to an address using
only the IP address and _not_ by contacting the ISP to get that address.

How does "Maxmind" software accurately trace IP addresses 100% of the time?
<https://ia801002.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757.10.0.pdf>
"Maxmind geolocation technology which traced Defendant to a location
in Miami, FL has always been 100% accurate"

How do they 100% geolocate an IP address alone to your unique address?
(assuming borders aren't nearby and noting they correlated neighbors)
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<uh7qau$3nrna$1@dont-email.me>

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From: addr...@is.invalid (R.Wieser)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: R.Wieser - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:04 UTC

"wally",

> It's only about the software they used to geolocate to an address
> using only the IP address and _not_ by contacting the ISP to get
> that address.
....
> How do they 100% geolocate an IP address alone to your unique address?

Do not believe the claims a companies sales department makes. After all,
they are trying to sell a product (either the software or its results).

The answer to your question ? By accessing the database which stores such
IP-to-user "translations", which an ISP is legally required to upload its
own log in that regard to.

And no, your "unique address" doesn't exist. There is something called
"dynamic IP adresses". But using the thanwhile IP *plus* time of access a
user can again be uniquely identified.

.... unless you go thru some VPN or similar server thats located outside of a
countries legal reach (and doesn't upload its logs). Which ofcourse
/should/ make a dent in their "100%" claim. But I'm sure their sales
department has got some "thats outside our intended scope" excuse for that.

> The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.

And you do not seem to have much of any problem with that. Than again,
although "common sense" is said to be common, it often isn't. :-)

> And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

Bullshit. The only reason I want to talk to someone who knows more about
something than I do is to get my problem solved (or just learn something).
Any benefit others might get from my conversation with that other person is
purely coincidental (not that I mind if it happens though).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<kppkk0Fqvn3U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address
100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Andy Burns - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:29 UTC

Wally J wrote:

> *How did Malibu Media 100% determine GPS LOCATION of an IP address*
> *WITHOUT contacting the ISP*?
>
> <https://www.csoonline.com/article/546518/ip-address-does-not-identify-a-person-judge-tells-copyright-troll-in-bittorrent-ca.html>

The only mention of GPS in that article and the linked PDF is as a
source of accurate time.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<uh8c2v$3sbee$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Newya...@invalid.nospam (Newyana2)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Newyana2 - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 12:07 UTC

"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote

| > How do they 100% geolocate an IP address alone to your unique address?
| | Do not believe the claims a companies sales department makes. After all,
| they are trying to sell a product (either the software or its results).
| | The answer to your question ? By accessing the database which stores such
| IP-to-user "translations", which an ISP is legally required to upload its
| own log in that regard to.
|

I use a free database from MaxMind to process my server logs.
It gets location within a few miles. Getting more accurate costs.
But even Google only gets within miles. If they're getting an exact
address that's just datamining of personal information.

I'm curious. What do you know about ISPs uploading logs? I've
never heard of that. Is that a Dutch law? IP range assignments are
public knowledge, but I've never heard of any law requiring ISPs
to share their traffic data.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: R.Wieser - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:31 UTC

Newyana2,

> I'm curious. What do you know about ISPs uploading logs?

Very little I'm afraid. I just remember that it was (American) news a
number of years ago (after 9/11) - to be able to track what "terrorists"
where doing.

> but I've never heard of any law requiring ISPs
> to share their traffic data.

Not full traffic, just who assigned a particular IP and what IPs it connects
to. But yes, here in Europe the IPSs by law have to keep such info
available for ... 5 years IIRC.

Some links, talking about such retention laws at least 10 years ago :

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/17279/what-are-the-laws-regarding-isp-recording-ip-addresses-how-would-they-know-who

https://www.pcworld.com/article/477233/faq_will_your_isp_protect_your_privacy_.html

(England)
https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/police-internet-providers-must-keep-user-logs/

A more recent question about it in regard to GDPR (Europe) :

https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/28603/how-to-satisfy-gdprs-consent-requirement-for-ip-logging

This year :

https://www.privacyend.com/mandatory-data-retention/

https://www.cyberghostvpn.com/en_US/privacyhub/global-data-retention-laws/

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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 by: Alan Browne - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:24 UTC

On 2023-10-24 06:29, Andy Burns wrote:

> <https://www.csoonline.com/article/546518/ip-address-does-not-identify-a-person-judge-tells-copyright-troll-in-bittorrent-ca.html>
>
> The only mention of GPS in that article and the linked PDF is as a
> source of accurate time.

Why not just ask the ISP for the client data (with an appropriate
subpoena of course)?

This judge would still toss it out, I suppose, because it still didn't
id the actual person.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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 by: Newyana2 - Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:29 UTC

"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote

|
| This year :
| | https://www.privacyend.com/mandatory-data-retention/
| | https://www.cyberghostvpn.com/en_US/privacyhub/global-data-retention-laws/
|

Thanks. I didn't know about that. The pattern seems to be
that most countries are very intrusive, but many of the laws
have been challenged. While in the US there's no law but all
the big spyware companies are happy to sell/share the data.

I've never heard of ISPs giving out logs, but it's possible.
I have heard of law enforcement using phone records, but
they don't usually talk about details. For example, a murder
suspect in Idaho was found to have had his cellphome near
the murder location several times before the murder. Interestingly,
his cellphone was turned off for a couple of hours when the
murder happened. People still don't get that they're being
tracked on cellphones. This suspect apparently thought to
turn off his phone during the murder but never thought about
how his movements could be tracked leading up to the
murder.

If someone is identified down to street address from their
home IP I'd guess that's browser location data, not IP. On the
other hand, who knows what Wally's ever talking about.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:06 UTC

"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote

> The answer to your question ? By accessing the database which stores such
> IP-to-user "translations", which an ISP is legally required to upload its
> own log in that regard to.

Hi Rudy,

Thanks for trying to help explain how geolocation is 100% accurate to a
single address in the United States _without_ contacting the ISP for data.

The PDF explicitly says they did _not_ contact the ISP so those logs you
speak of are completely immaterial as the PDF is clear they never used any.

"In the event the Court is still not convinced that Plaintiff has
properly established venue, Plaintiff respectfully requests the Court
allow it to subpoena the ISP with the subpoena response being returnable
to your Honor�s chambers. If the Defendant's address is insufficient to
establish venue then Plaintiff's suit will be dismissed."
<https://ia801002.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757.10.0.pdf>

Note very clearly they *never contacted the ISP* to get the guy's address.
They used a _different_ database to get his 100% unique GPS location, Rudy.

There is no question they obtained the guy's exact unique 100% geolocation
down to his residence using a Maxmind(R) Premium IP geolocation database.

The question here, for people who know more than I, is how Maxmind does it.
--
One perennial problem I have is _finding_ someone who knows more than I do,
which isn't because they don't exist - they do - but I have to find them.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:37 UTC

Newyana2 <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote

> People still don't get that they're being
> tracked on cellphones. This suspect apparently thought to
> turn off his phone during the murder but never thought about
> how his movements could be tracked leading up to the
> murder.

Hi Mayayana,

You're correct about that case as I read all these court case PDFs intently
to figure out _how_ they track people down to their exact location.

In the Bryan Kohberger November 2022 murders, they only had cell-tower
overlapping circles of where the phone was being driving around that night.

However, they had his phone number from a previous traffic stop the prior
August which is where they started their AT&T-tower venn-diagram overlaps.

"Kohberger provided his phone number as 509-592-8458, hereafter the
"8458 Phone as his cellular telephone number. Investigators conducted
electronic database queries and learned that the 8458 Phone is a
number issued by AT&T."
<https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23577650-kohberger-warrant>

Here is a shocking court case where the defendant's red iPhone tracked him
not visiting the remote murder site twice in the same dozen hours.
<https://www.njherald.com/story/news/politics/courts/2023/05/26/hayden-harris-army-corporal-murder-trial-xo-testifies/70256187007/>

All this was before the body was found by the authorities so only he knew
where the body was, and they tracked him over hundreds of miles in a twelve
hour period watching his phone from Pennsylvania to New York to New Jersey,
looping around the murder site (because he got lost on the second time
around) and then stopping twice within a dozen hours at the murder site).

They even knew every Wi-Fi access point the murderer passed that night.

> If someone is identified down to street address from their
> home IP I'd guess that's browser location data, not IP.

Hi Mayayana,

The question is _how_ they did it so that "may" be how they did it,
although all we have, so far, is they used the Maxmind payware database.

<https://ia801002.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757.10.0.pdf>
"...each IP Address present within the abovementioned forensic data is
automatically referenced against Maxmind(R) Premium's IP geolocation
database (1)"
(1)"As an example of how the process works, www.maxmind.com/en/geoip_demo
provides a way for anyone to test the database which Plaintiff uses.
Here, Plaintiff inputted Defendant's IP address and received the same
information it originally received from Maxmind. See Exhibit B"

We also know that they only pick the big ISPs, as they explicitly say
"Plaintiff only forms its suits against defendants that have reputable
Internet Service Providers (ISPs), such as here, AT&T, which from
Plaintiff's experience have consistently traced to the city location
provided by Maxmind."

They say it works 100% of the time to find the precise GPS location.
"Plaintiff's Maxmind geolocation technology which traced Defendant
to a location in Miami, FL has always been 100% accurate when traced
to the Southern District of Florida. The proof that the technology
works is that it has always worked previously."

The important question, for privacy reasons, is we must know _how_ the
Maxmind company is able to determine, 100%, our physical address.
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/home>

If we don't know _how_ they track our IP address to our homes, 100% of the
time, then we can't implement any measures to prevent them from doing that.
--
Posting to Usenet is an attempt to find someone who knows more than I do.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:38 UTC

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote

>> <https://www.csoonline.com/article/546518/ip-address-does-not-identify-a-person-judge-tells-copyright-troll-in-bittorrent-ca.html>
>>
>> The only mention of GPS in that article and the linked PDF is as a
>> source of accurate time.
>
> Why not just ask the ISP for the client data (with an appropriate
> subpoena of course)?
>
> This judge would still toss it out, I suppose, because it still didn't
> id the actual person.

Hi Alan,

There is no question the PDF explicitly says the ISP was never contacted.
<https://ia801002.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757/gov.uscourts.flsd.429757.10.0.pdf>

In fact, the PDF says if the judge doesn't believe their 100% accurate
'Maxmind(R) Premium IP geolocation' result, only _then_ would they bother
to ask the judge to allow them to subpoena AT&T (who was the guy's ISP).

The PDF says the 'Maxmind(R) Premium IP geolocation database' is 100%
accurate to identify the exact address that had that IP address for 6
months (where the judge's response was that an address isn't a person).

Even though they 100% pinpointed the address sans ISP logs, that didn't
matter because his legal point is an address can't commit infringement.

However...
I'm not asking about the merits of the case (as it was dismissed anyway).

What I'm trying to find is someone who knows more about how this supposedly
100% accurate 'Maxmind(R) Premium IP geolocation database' is created.
<http://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip_demo>

Does anyone out there know more about how this Maxmind database is created?
--
I am on this newsgroup to seek knowledge from others who know more than I.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:48 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

>> *How did Malibu Media 100% determine GPS LOCATION of an IP address*
>> *WITHOUT contacting the ISP*?
>>
>> <https://www.csoonline.com/article/546518/ip-address-does-not-identify-a-person-judge-tells-copyright-troll-in-bittorrent-ca.html>
>
> The only mention of GPS in that article and the linked PDF is as a
> source of accurate time.

Hi Andy,
Thanks for bringing up that GPS concern - where I'm using GPS colloquially.

We know the Plaintiff feels they properly established the defendant's home
address as they said in the PDF if the judge didn't believe them, then they
would ask to be allowed to subpoena the AT&T ISP database to confirm it.

However, we don't know if they established that address down to the exact
global positioning coordinates or to the location of the USPS mailbox.

But does that minor detail really matter?
I don't know.

It all depends on _how_ Maxmind determines your location from IP addresses.

Suffice to say they tracked the guy down to his home as he used the same IP
address for six months - which is the part I'm trying to understand better.

How does the Maxmind company determine, 100%, our physical address anyway?
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/home>
--
I'm on Usenet to learn from others and to teach others who want to learn.

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 by: R.Wieser - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 06:33 UTC

Newyana2,

> I've never heard of ISPs giving out logs, but it's possible.

They're not "giving out logs". Their customers would leave in droves if
they would know. If they have them available for the Law than that is
under pressure.

> I have heard of law enforcement using phone records, but
> they don't usually talk about details.

The same goes for the above logs (IP to user correlation). Stuff like that
is often kept silent, as it will just cause civil unrest. Although catching
crooks with them is often wantd and applauded, being included in such lists
as a common citizen feels creepy - and rightly so.

> People still don't get that they're being tracked on cellphones

There is also the possibility that they know, realize that they can't change
anything about it, and (purposely) forget all about it (as it would only
cause stress).

> This suspect apparently thought to turn off his phone during the
> murder but never thought about how his movements could be tracked
> leading up to the murder.

:-) Most (occasional) criminals are not all that smart. But for the guy to
know he could be tracked but not realizing that the same could be done for
his checking out of the place is remarkable. As if only the deed itself
was the danger point.

By the way, in the same line : I recently read people being found guilty of
killing others because they looked up the method of killing on the internet
in the days just before the killing.

IOW, the gouverment has got access to a bit more than just the IP-to-user
information. Though that might just be in the IPS's own logs (asked for
when a specific person raised suspicion).

> If someone is identified down to street address from their
> home IP I'd guess that's browser location data, not IP.

Nope, its likely easier than that. It makes sense that the "ip to user" log
includes the users billing addres - just to make sure that the user is
uniquely identified (a log list which tells you that a certain IP was used
by "James Smith" isn't all that usefull)

> On the other hand, who knows what Wally's ever talking about.

True. Though most likely trying to create another of his famous tutorials.
:-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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 by: R.Wieser - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:09 UTC

"Wally",

> The PDF explicitly says they did _not_ contact the ISP so those logs you
> speak of are completely immaterial as the PDF is clear they never used
> any.

Did I ever mention them contacting an ISP ? I don't think so.

If you think otherwise you only have to quote where I did. Good luck with
that though.

> The question here, for people who know more than I, is how Maxmind does
> it.

[quote=me]
Than again, although "common sense" is said to be common, it often isn't.
[quote]

Tell me, do you think that their method of their discovering the relation
between an IP and a user location is their money-maker, and divulging it to
the world (allowing them to do it themselves) would bring a stop to that ?

IOW, that the method is likely considered to be a 'trade secret' and packed
into layers of NDA's.

That would mean that you are asking for something the company doesn't want
you to know, and that the people who do know are not allowed to speak about
it.

But here you are, still "asking" random people for it.

> One perennial problem I have is _finding_ someone who knows more
> than I do, which isn't because they don't exist - they do - but
> I have to find them.

Thats odd : you claim that nobody knows more than you do, but at the same
time you are asking others for information.

Something doesn't quite add up here ...

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:11 UTC

On 2023-10-24 22:29, Newyana2 wrote:
> "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote
>
> |
> | This year :
> |
> | https://www.privacyend.com/mandatory-data-retention/
> |
> | https://www.cyberghostvpn.com/en_US/privacyhub/global-data-retention-laws/
> |
>
> Thanks. I didn't know about that. The pattern seems to be
> that most countries are very intrusive, but many of the laws
> have been challenged. While in the US there's no law but all
> the big spyware companies are happy to sell/share the data.
>
> I've never heard of ISPs giving out logs, but it's possible.
> I have heard of law enforcement using phone records, but
> they don't usually talk about details. For example, a murder
> suspect in Idaho was found to have had his cellphome near
> the murder location several times before the murder. Interestingly,
> his cellphone was turned off for a couple of hours when the
> murder happened. People still don't get that they're being
> tracked on cellphones. This suspect apparently thought to
> turn off his phone during the murder but never thought about
> how his movements could be tracked leading up to the
> murder.
>
> If someone is identified down to street address from their
> home IP I'd guess that's browser location data, not IP. On the
> other hand, who knows what Wally's ever talking about.

Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP. Try Google Maps in a
computer with a new web profile or computer user, see how they get your
location correct. At least the area.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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 by: Paul - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:39 UTC

On 10/25/2023 7:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>
> Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP. Try Google Maps
> in a computer with a new web profile or computer user, see how
> they get your location correct. At least the area.
>

It's more complicated than that.

The browser can query the "Location Service" on a Windows machine.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-location-service-and-privacy-3a8eee0a-5b0b-dc07-eede-2a5ca1c49088

"Microsoft operates a location service that helps determine the
precise geographic location of your Windows device. The precise
location of your device allows apps to give you directions, show
shops and restaurants that are near you, and more.

Many apps and services request location information from your device,
and the Windows location service gives you control over which apps
are allowed to access your precise location."

There is a big difference between the "precise" on a Windows Phone
versus the "precise" on a de-equipped desktop. Using my Ethernet IP, they
would precisely locate me to the "head office of my ISP".

My pizza won't be getting here in 30 minutes, so it will be free.

*******

There was an academic paper, claiming location via Ethernet packets,
to around two city blocks. Which is not "precise" and is not enough
for legal cases. And that method, required a certain density of probing
devices, to make the determination. This is a good enough method for
setting up police road blocks and doing a grid search.

With wireless in the picture, the situation could be quite different.
Both Microsoft and Google have "snarfed" SSIDs. Google was doing
this, with the Google map car that drives around. Microsoft was doing
it with the OS, but they have likely stopped doing that, some time ago.
Microsoft would collect all the SSIDs they could find, on a Wifi, and
then by comparing all the customers, build a map using that info.

I would guess, without Wifi and without a 4G Dongle, you're pretty safe.

However, if you Google on "toronto pizza" then you're in Toronto,
and if you type in "toronto city hall main phone number", again,
you're in Toronto. If you type in "Joes Pizza", then that might
isolate you to a section of Toronto. Enough of these kinds of requests,
geolocates you (as people are too lazy to go to the other side of Toronto).

I think on one occasion, they got three of my post-code letters correct.
But since the info displayed at the bottom of the page, is not their
actual determination (it's to knock you off the scent), their
determination could be a lot closer.

Paul

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: R.Wieser - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:43 UTC

Carlos,

> Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP.

No, it doesn't.

> Try Google Maps in a computer with a new web profile or computer user, see
> how they get your location correct. At least the area.

:-) Yes, "at least"

A new profile doesn't change your IP, nor your 'puters "fingerprint" - the
latter of which can often be "probed" by a bit of JS.

Also, from your IP they know which ISP you're using, and from that (and
previous experiences) they can pin-point your general(!) area.

And thats assuming you're *not* using a Google browser, 'cause in that case
it can just grab an ID that was set up when it was installed/first used.

And yes, there have already been complaints about that. Especially here in
Europe, as such a tracking ID violates the GDPR.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:11 UTC

On 2023-10-25 07:43, R.Wieser wrote:
> Carlos,
>
>> Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP.
>
> No, it doesn't.
>
>> Try Google Maps in a computer with a new web profile or computer user, see
>> how they get your location correct. At least the area.
>
> :-) Yes, "at least"
>
> A new profile doesn't change your IP, nor your 'puters "fingerprint" - the
> latter of which can often be "probed" by a bit of JS.
>
> Also, from your IP they know which ISP you're using, and from that (and
> previous experiences) they can pin-point your general(!) area.
>
> And thats assuming you're *not* using a Google browser, 'cause in that case
> it can just grab an ID that was set up when it was installed/first used.
>
> And yes, there have already been complaints about that. Especially here in
> Europe, as such a tracking ID violates the GDPR.

Can you folks stop X-posting this convo in the satellites group please?

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:33 UTC

On 2023-10-25 13:39, Paul wrote:
> On 10/25/2023 7:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>
>> Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP. Try Google Maps
>> in a computer with a new web profile or computer user, see how
>> they get your location correct. At least the area.
>>
>
> It's more complicated than that.
>
> The browser can query the "Location Service" on a Windows machine.
>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-location-service-and-privacy-3a8eee0a-5b0b-dc07-eede-2a5ca1c49088
>
> "Microsoft operates a location service that helps determine the
> precise geographic location of your Windows device. The precise
> location of your device allows apps to give you directions, show
> shops and restaurants that are near you, and more.
>
> Many apps and services request location information from your device,
> and the Windows location service gives you control over which apps
> are allowed to access your precise location."
>
> There is a big difference between the "precise" on a Windows Phone
> versus the "precise" on a de-equipped desktop. Using my Ethernet IP, they
> would precisely locate me to the "head office of my ISP".
>

Right :-)

> My pizza won't be getting here in 30 minutes, so it will be free.
>
> *******
>
> There was an academic paper, claiming location via Ethernet packets,
> to around two city blocks. Which is not "precise" and is not enough
> for legal cases. And that method, required a certain density of probing
> devices, to make the determination. This is a good enough method for
> setting up police road blocks and doing a grid search.

I think they need access to the ISP hardware for doing this, so getting
the help of the ISP would be faster.

>
> With wireless in the picture, the situation could be quite different.
> Both Microsoft and Google have "snarfed" SSIDs. Google was doing
> this, with the Google map car that drives around. Microsoft was doing
> it with the OS, but they have likely stopped doing that, some time ago.
> Microsoft would collect all the SSIDs they could find, on a Wifi, and
> then by comparing all the customers, build a map using that info.
>
> I would guess, without Wifi and without a 4G Dongle, you're pretty safe.
>

True, they can use wifi maps. Still, the external query needs access to
knowing the WiFi... or access to the OS location services.

> However, if you Google on "toronto pizza" then you're in Toronto,
> and if you type in "toronto city hall main phone number", again,
> you're in Toronto. If you type in "Joes Pizza", then that might
> isolate you to a section of Toronto. Enough of these kinds of requests,
> geolocates you (as people are too lazy to go to the other side of Toronto).
>

I don't think the ISPs do this. Facebook, Google... maybe.

> I think on one occasion, they got three of my post-code letters correct.
> But since the info displayed at the bottom of the page, is not their
> actual determination (it's to knock you off the scent), their
> determination could be a lot closer.
>
> Paul

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:44 UTC

On 2023-10-25 13:43, R.Wieser wrote:
> Carlos,
>
>> Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP.
>
> No, it doesn't.
>
>> Try Google Maps in a computer with a new web profile or computer user, see
>> how they get your location correct. At least the area.
>
> :-) Yes, "at least"
>
> A new profile doesn't change your IP,

That was the point of the google maps test :-)

> nor your 'puters "fingerprint" - the
> latter of which can often be "probed" by a bit of JS.
>
> Also, from your IP they know which ISP you're using, and from that (and
> previous experiences) they can pin-point your general(!) area.
>
> And thats assuming you're *not* using a Google browser, 'cause in that case
> it can just grab an ID that was set up when it was installed/first used.
>

Not if using a new user. I'm certain on Linux, and probably on Windows.

When first used, it can only write things in the user directory, not
globally.

> And yes, there have already been complaints about that. Especially here in
> Europe, as such a tracking ID violates the GDPR.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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 by: Carlos E. R. - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:51 UTC

On 2023-10-25 14:55, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
> | Hum. The browser knows the location from the IP. Try Google Maps in a
> | computer with a new web profile or computer user, see how they get your
> | location correct. At least the area.
> |
>
> I think we're potentially talking about multiple things here.
> Browser location reporting is one thing. Spyware data collection
> is another. Locating you by your IP is yet another. As I mentioned,
> I use a free database that lets me locate IP within a few miles.
> You can also look up a single IP online. That's based on public
> records. If I visit Google (with no script allowed, as usual) they
> list my location as being 2-3 miles away from where I am, in
> a different subsection of town. They're using those public IP
> records. That's not a source of addresses.

....

> There was an interesting example of the spyware datamining
> several years ago:
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/
>
> Target is almost the last remaining US department store. They
> track customers any way they can. As a result of garden variety
> tracking and purchase history, they mailed ads for baby supplies
> to a teenage girl. The father found out his daughter was pregnant
> from the mailing.

Gosh!

>
> So all of that is happening and it's astonishingly intrusive. Target
> knew the girl's name, address, shopping history, etc, probably from
> a charge card. (I avoid charge cards.) Or maybe because they
> suckered her into being a "loyalty member". Or possibly through a
> combination of disparate data that they collect or pay for.
>
> The other
> day I read from a Mozilla article that Nissan claims the right, in their
> privacy policy, to track your sex life, presumably by filming you in
> your car.

Argh.

>
> Crazy stuff, and lawmakers are in the dark. But it doesn't
> help when Chicken Littles like Wally go around screaming, with no idea
> what they're talking about. It just gives the ostriches an excuse to
> keep their heads buried. The facts are plenty shocking without making
> stuff up.

:-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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 by: R.Wieser - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:33 UTC

Carlos,

>> A new profile doesn't change your IP,
>
> That was the point of the google maps test :-)

You lost me.

>> And thats assuming you're *not* using a Google browser, 'cause in that
>> case
>> it can just grab an ID that was set up when it was installed/first used.
>
> Not if using a new user. I'm certain on Linux, and probably on Windows.
>
> When first used, it can only write things in the user directory, not
> globally.

Ah yes, the old "I said 'a new web profile or computer user', but ment only
'computer user'" bait-and switch. :-(

Also, as whomt have you installed the browser ? I hope it wasn't as an
Admin, otherwise your OS-maintained seperation of users is violated (the
browser can grab the ID from the Admins account).

The same goes for Windows by the way.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:51 UTC

Please type your IP address into this lookup from Maxmind and let us know
how accurate it seems to be (given my results were within a neighborhood).
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo/>

Or simply visit this geolocation web site offered by Maxmind on the net.
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address>

The result is a latitude/longitude (which we can colloquially call "GPS"
keeping in mind what Andy Burns brought up) which was within a half mile.
<https://blog.maxmind.com/2021/07/how-accurate-is-ip-geolocation/>
"Whether you're localizing content, implementing geofencing,
or gathering data for security and analytics, you start with an
IP address and hope for something like the latitude and longitude
of the end-user."

They provide an overview of how they collect this geolocation data here.
<https://www.maxmind.com/geoip2-overview-2021-06-08.pdf>
Note that their "Precision" database includes what they call "Insights."

Delving into "Insights", it's further referred to as a "Precision Web
Service" using "Traffic Analysis" compiled from "Data Points" on the net,
& charges ranging from $0.0001 to $0.002 per query with volume discounts.

<https://support.maxmind.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408918396571-Lookup-IP-Addresses-in-the-Web-Services>

They say specifically "GeoIP2 geolocation data is never precise enough to
identify or locate a specific household, individual, or street address"

<https://support.maxmind.com/hc/en-us/articles/4407630607131-Geolocation-Accuracy>

And, surprisingly considering the merit of the aforementioned lawsuit...
"we cannot geolocate the *person* who is using the IP address"
because they say people can be using up to 5 different kinds of anonymizers
VPNs,
hosting providers,
public proxies,
residential proxies,
and TOR exit nodes,
and then they go on to say there are other anonymizers such as
Apple iCloud Private Relay.
<https://support.maxmind.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408208507163>

And their most accurate databases use a variety IP-intelligence data.
IP Network Data
Anonymizer and Proxy Data
Business VPNs and Consumer Privacy Networks
User Context Data

<https://support.maxmind.com/hc/en-us/sections/4407512691867-IP-Intelligence-Data>
--
Being intelligent enough to be privacy conscious is not a crime.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<kpsou4Fctv7U5@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address
100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Andy Burns - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:01 UTC

Wally J wrote:

> Please type your IP address into this lookup from Maxmind and let us
> know how accurate it seems to be

It says centre of London, with a claimed accuracy of 200km, which is
157km away from where I actually am, so it knows its limitations.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

<uhbas7$r0ts$1@dont-email.me>

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From: walterjo...@invalid.nospam (Wally J)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:05 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

> Those various databases vary wildly in accuracy, they all know my IP is
> in the UK, but some are 100 miles out.

How accurate is the Maxmind lookup for your IP address in the UK?
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo/>
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address>

> When logged-out of my google account, google maps used to at least
> pretend it didn't know my location at all, now even when logged-out, it
> knows to within a couple of miles

I use Google Maps on the phone where I also employ GPS spoofing software,
as you're well aware (e.g., "Fake GPS") which produces interesting
artifacts since Google Maps knows _both_ locations, fake & real,
simultaneously (so it literally jumps back and forth between them).

This is due to the rude inconsiderate neighbors who don't hide their home
router broadcasts and to the even more inconsiderate masses who upload them
to the various NetStumbler, Mozilla, Wigle & Google AP-to-GPS databases.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of humans are the type who would kick a
stray dog just to get it out of their way judging from this basic fact.

I wish more people would stop being rude & simply do 2 important things:
1. Set up the AP with _both_ hidden broadcasts & append "_nomap", and,
2. Set up the phone to _not_ upload broadcasts to the location databases.

Those simple steps aren't being done by 999,999 out of 1,000,000 cases.
Hence it's the rude people surrounding us, who give our location away.

> When my PC is logged-in, google maps knows to within 300 metres or so,
> my phone logs-in to the same google account and has GPS enabled, so I'm
> surprised it isn't bang-on.

I don't know of GPS-spoofing freeware on Windows to prevent that. Do you?
--
Those who are intelligent enough to understand privacy have to deal with
the unwashed masses who are so rude as to daily throw them under the bus.

Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?

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From: walterjo...@invalid.nospam (Wally J)
Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.internet.wireless
Subject: Re: How did Malibu Media find the exact GPS LOCATION of an IP address 100% of the time WITHOUT contacting the ISP?
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 by: Wally J - Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:10 UTC

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

>> Please type your IP address into this lookup from Maxmind and let us
>> know how accurate it seems to be
>
> It says centre of London, with a claimed accuracy of 200km, which is
> 157km away from where I actually am, so it knows its limitations.

Thanks for running that test, where that's the free database, which even
Rudy (or was it Mayayana?) noted has purposefully introduced inaccuracies.
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/geoip-demo/>

In my case, the geolocation turned out to be within the same neighborhood;
but that may be because of the particular way we obtain our IP addresses
given there are no cable lines on the telephone poles out in the boonies.
<https://www.maxmind.com/en/locate-my-ip-address>

Hence all our Internet access has to come from a few miles away LOS from an
eclectically tiny set of IP providers - although with the T-Mobile 5G
hotspots nowadays, many of us are switching to broadband over cellular.

BTW, does your PC really have GPS enabled on it?
I've never encountered such a thing.

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