CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.

PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.

NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
appreciated.

HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
--
Jeff Barnett

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:12:13 -0600, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com>
wrote:

>CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>
>PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
>mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
>would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
>build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
>use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
>error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>
>NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
>safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
>willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
>appreciated.
>
>HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
>had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
>no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
>problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
>firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.

Memtest

KenW

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:31:26 -0600, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:12:13 -0600, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com>
>wrote:
>
>>CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>>Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>>Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>>F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>
>>PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
>>mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
>>would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
>>build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
>>use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
>>error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>>
>>NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
>>safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
>>willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
>>appreciated.
>>
>>HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
>>had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
>>no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
>>problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
>>firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>
>Memtest

Agreed. It's been a while, but last time I needed something I used
Memtest86 from here: https://www.memtest86.com/compare.html

Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:31:26 -0600, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

> >On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:12:13 -0600, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
> >>Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
> >>Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
> >>F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
> >>
> >>PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
> >>mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
> >>would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
> >>build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
> >>use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
> >>error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
> >>
> >>NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
> >>safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
> >>willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
> >>appreciated.
> >>
> >>HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
> >>had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
> >>no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
> >>problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
> >>firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
> >
> >Memtest

> Agreed. It's been a while, but last time I needed something I used
> Memtest86 from here: https://www.memtest86.com/compare.html

Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
--
"Who can proclaim the mighty acts of the Lord or fully declare his praise?" --Psalm 106:2. A flying social insect's stinger stung the right hand's pinky finger 2 swell. Also, fell down 2 mark cuts on right elbow & left knee while running away. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 6/28/2023 10:05 PM, Ant wrote:
> Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:31:26 -0600, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:12:13 -0600, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>>>> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>>>> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>>>> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>>>
>>>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
>>>> mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
>>>> would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
>>>> build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
>>>> use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
>>>> error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>>>>
>>>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
>>>> safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
>>>> willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
>>>> had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
>>>> no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
>>>> problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
>>>> firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>>>
>>> Memtest
>
>> Agreed. It's been a while, but last time I needed something I used
>> Memtest86 from here: https://www.memtest86.com/compare.html
>
> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
>

I have MT6 Beta, on a Kingston Datatraveller 1GB flash stick.
(The current version is 6.2 )

That's compatible with my Zen3. But should also be able to run on a 4930K.
My test machine is a 4930K with 8x8GB of RAM as well, like Jeffs.

On my 4930K, the first memory config, was 4x4GB (1DPC) and XMP worked
right away, to run the memory at the proper speed (2400).

When I got 8x8GB, that's (2DPC) or two DIMMs per channel which is
a heavier load. XMP does not work for 2DPC, only for 1DPC, so you
lose a large convenience when doing that. Tuning manually, I ended
up with a speed of 1866 (not the 2400 on the tin).

And like Jeff, the RAM has been rock solid. DDR3 with no ECC.

*******

To prepare for Windows Memory Diagnostic, a person can try this.

While in theory, an Administrator Power Shell or an Administrator Command Prompt
would work for this, it turns out that only one of the two works. The
other throws an error with regard to syntax.

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

The addition of this line, to the BCD file, causes the old black boot screen
to appear (WinXP era), in place of the graphical lozenge boot menu.
But, you get some additional options. My 4930K has a dual boot config.
It's had 7,8,8.1,10 on it, from time to time.

Windows 10
Windows 7 <=== The default selection is highlighted at first

F8 <=== a row for safe mode, this might disappear as you cursor/tab around

Tools:
Windows Memory Diagnostic <==== Use the tab key, to get down here, then carriage return.

The Windows Memory Diagnostic is unlikely to test low memory,
but in its defense, it has better quality tests than memtest.
(This means if there is a bus noise or a timing problem, it is
more likely to pick it up while testing.)

It picked up a memory error on one of my machines here, that
a full pass of memtest missed.

Paul

On 29/06/2023 03:05, Ant wrote:
> Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:31:26 -0600, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:12:13 -0600, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>>>> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>>>> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>>>> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>>>
>>>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
>>>> mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
>>>> would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
>>>> build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
>>>> use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
>>>> error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>>>>
>>>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
>>>> safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
>>>> willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
>>>> had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
>>>> no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
>>>> problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
>>>> firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>>>
>>> Memtest
>
>> Agreed. It's been a while, but last time I needed something I used
>> Memtest86 from here: https://www.memtest86.com/compare.html

+1

> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/

I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 6/28/2023 6:12 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>
> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
> mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
> would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
> build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
> use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
> error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>
> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
> safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
> willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
> appreciated.
>
> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
> had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
> no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
> problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
> firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.

I want to thank everyone who replied. As a result, I downloaded Memtest,
let it make a bootable thumb drive and tried to use it. No problems with
it booting and loading. However, I ran into the following sequence of
results that left me more puzzled than when I started:

First test: It loaded and started to run. After 36 minutes it was
performing Test 6 -- Block move, 64-byte blocks. At that point it froze,
i.e., neither its clock or animations gave any sign of life.

Second test: It started spewing error messages, exceed some limit, and
stopped. First and last error message follow:
First error message recorded: 2023-06-29 14:45:26 - [MEM ERROR
- Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 8D305543C, Expected: 02020202,
Actual: 82020202

Last error message output: 2023-06-29 14:45:45 - [MEM ERROR -
Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 90F292834, Expected: 40404040,
Actual: C0404040

Third test: Ran for about 3 hours with no errors and finished one of
four repetitions at which point I halted testing. I then realized that
it had estimated the total amount of memory as about 48GB instead of the
actual 64GB. However, the firmware and Windows both showed the full 64GB
later.

I should note that I recently have been generating blue screens, each
one with a different BCC code. From that I guessed hardware instead of
software problem and memory as a likely candidate. If Memtest had
performed more or less consistently, I would fully believe that
diagnoses but see the above results. I also don't know how to translate
the information from test two to either memory slots or memory module
designations.

In other words, I'm stuck again. Another problem is that my memory
modules are under a massive CPU cooler and difficult to remove and
shuffle around. At this point, I'd be willing to pay a good tech to
complete the diagnoses necessary so I could effect repairs. (I live in
Albuquerque, NM and don't know of any such person around here.) Any
ideas on how to proceed would be most welcome.
--
Jeff Barnett

On 29/06/2023 01:12, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>
> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe
> mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It
> would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to
> build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still
> use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory
> error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>
> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in
> safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm
> willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be
> appreciated.
>
> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards
> had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had
> no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the
> problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of
> firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.

As well as Memtest, Windows has it's own memory diagnostic.

Link might wrap
-
https://www.howtogeek.com/260813/how-to-test-your-computers-ram-for-problems/

--
Regards
wasbit

In message <u7lm0a$2ersj$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 29 Jun 2023 22:34:16,
Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes
[]
>Second test: It started spewing error messages, exceed some limit, and
>stopped. First and last error message follow:
> First error message recorded: 2023-06-29 14:45:26 - [MEM ERROR
> - Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 8D305543C, Expected: 02020202,
> Actual: 82020202
>
> Last error message output: 2023-06-29 14:45:45 - [MEM ERROR -
> Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 90F292834, Expected: 40404040,
> Actual: C0404040

Expected 02020202, actual 82020202, and expected 40404040, actual
C0404040 means that the most significant bit is sticking for that memory
block. Sounds like the test is walking ones through the block - 02 is
00000010, and 40 is 01000000 (82 is 10000010 and C0 is 11000000 - see,
the top bit is 1). Sorry if you knew this.

I'm a bit surprised at it starting at an address that isn't on some sort
of boundary, but it could be that it's marginal and that's just the
first one that failed. Maybe difficult to tell if it was "spewing" the
error messages, but could you see if the _second_ error message was at
the next address, or one (say) 000000100 higher, or just random? Did the
test always give the same address for the first failure?
[]
>I should note that I recently have been generating blue screens, each
>one with a different BCC code. From that I guessed hardware instead of
>software problem and memory as a likely candidate. If Memtest had

Does sound plausible.

>performed more or less consistently, I would fully believe that
>diagnoses but see the above results. I also don't know how to translate
>the information from test two to either memory slots or memory module
>designations.
>
>In other words, I'm stuck again. Another problem is that my memory
>modules are under a massive CPU cooler and difficult to remove and
>shuffle around. At this point, I'd be willing to pay a good tech to
>complete the diagnoses necessary so I could effect repairs. (I live in
>Albuquerque, NM and don't know of any such person around here.) Any
>ideas on how to proceed would be most welcome.

As it's the most significant bit, rather than a middling one, I'd wonder
if it is something not seated properly, or a slight
corrosion/contamination on a contact, and I'd want to check/clean the
contacts - but I appreciate the problem you describe. Unfortunately, I
suspect anyone you pay to do it would still have to do the same you
would have to, plus it sounds like you'd have to travel to them and so
on. They might have a quicker way of translating the address/data to a
specific module, though - would need knowledge of the layout of your
particular motherboard and memory modules. (Someone here might know a
generic translation method.) But - unless you do find an obvious piece
of grit or otherwise dirty contact - I fear switching modules about _is_
going to be necessary.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

On 6/30/2023 12:34 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 6/28/2023 6:12 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>
>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered safe mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the motherboard. It would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation uses .NET to build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I could still use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is a memory error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>>
>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run in safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive. I'm willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would be appreciated.
>>
>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS boards had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL; they had no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but helped get the problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and new release of firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>
>
> I want to thank everyone who replied. As a result, I downloaded Memtest, let it make a bootable thumb drive and tried to use it. No problems with it booting and loading. However, I ran into the following sequence of results that left me more puzzled than when I started:
>
> First test: It loaded and started to run. After 36 minutes it was performing Test 6 -- Block move, 64-byte blocks. At that point it froze, i.e., neither its clock or animations gave any sign of life.
>
> Second test: It started spewing error messages, exceed some limit, and stopped. First and last error message follow:
>     First error message recorded: 2023-06-29 14:45:26 - [MEM ERROR
>     - Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 8D305543C, Expected: 02020202,
>     Actual: 82020202
>
>     Last error message output: 2023-06-29 14:45:45 - [MEM ERROR -
>     Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 90F292834, Expected: 40404040,
>     Actual: C0404040
>
> Third test: Ran for about 3 hours with no errors and finished one of four repetitions at which point I halted testing. I then realized that it had estimated the total amount of memory as about 48GB instead of the actual 64GB. However, the firmware and Windows both showed the full 64GB later.
>
> I should note that I recently have been generating blue screens, each one with a different BCC code. From that I guessed hardware instead of software problem and memory as a likely candidate. If Memtest had performed more or less consistently, I would fully believe that diagnoses but see the above results. I also don't know how to translate the information from test two to either memory slots or memory module designations.
>
> In other words, I'm stuck again. Another problem is that my memory modules are under a massive CPU cooler and difficult to remove and shuffle around. At this point, I'd be willing to pay a good tech to complete the diagnoses necessary so I could effect repairs. (I live in Albuquerque, NM and don't know of any such person around here.) Any ideas on how to proceed would be most welcome.

Note: The following is pure hypothesis. I'm only doing this to
demonstrate how hard it is for a programmer to get this right.
It doesn't matter how much money you pay, chance of error is large.

We are, for example, relying on the Tech Writer at Asus, to have
labeled the channels correctly. We are relying upon Intel doing
something reasonable in the decoder.

https://images.hothardware.com/static/articleimages/Item1811/intel-x79-blockdiagram.png

[Picture] "DRAM labeling according to Asus"

https://i.postimg.cc/W3mzg45k/P9-X79-layout.jpg

By not installing the second fan on the dual tower cooler,
both DIMM sets are equally accessible. The dual tower cooler
does not really need the second fan.

*******

With all DRAM pages open, it behaves like a dual channel
board, even though it is a four channel CPU. It should try
to interleave on all DIMMs, like this, in a recurring pattern.
The more DRAM pages a CPU can keep open, the faster it goes
(on memory-bound work). How the pages interleave (the pivot),
is immaterial for MEMTEST problems. Some strides in memory
work faster than others, and that is how you figure out where
pivots were placed. The pivot could be A11-A12 or so, or
on four channels A12-A13, and since the number of pages changed,
it could be even higher now. The pivot does not matter when
decoding addresses for memory failures. Each generation of memory,
has a different number of page registers inside.

A1(MS) B1(LS) 64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each DIMM 8 bytes wide)
C1(MS) D1(LS) 64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each DIMM 8 bytes wide)
A2(MS) B2(LS) 64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each DIMM 8 bytes wide)
C2(MS) D2(LS) 64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each DIMM 8 bytes wide)
...
pattern repeats, in attempt to keep pages open.
Pages can close, considerably slowing down access (like during purely random access)

8D305543C = 37,900,080,188

90F292834 = 38,909,061,172 Expected: 40404040 Actual: C0404040

The next error would be at 256 bytes later, if one chip was "blown". The next failure address would be:

90F292934

We have to develop a decoder for the bits. The 34 is what needs to be decoded.
Let us see what we can cook up.

0011 0100
\/\/ ||\/
| | || +---- index the 32 bit data word C0404040. This should stay at 00 always, on a failure.
| | |+------ which half of DIMM, upper or lower
| | +------- upper or lower channel (A1 or B1, A1 is one, B1 is zero)
| +--------- burst of four is immaterial with regard to which chip, only matters to bit identification
+----------- A1B1, C1D1, A2B2, C2D2 pair of indexing bits

Error is on:

A1B1
On B1
Upper half of B1 (32 bit wide chunk)
The C0404040 tells us it is the upper byte (byte lane 7 I suppose)

I suspect B1 :-) Hahaha. Or it could be Colonel Mustard in the drawingroom.

*******

What we do, is after seeing one of these errors, we test one DIMM at
a time. Total of eight tests.

The annoying part is, of course the stupid thing passes. With flying colours.
I hardly need to tell you that.

Place a single DIMM in any of A1/B1/C1/D1 (end of channel) and text the 8GB stick.
A detected error then, is unambiguous. DO NOT change memory timings. Do not
reach in and switch on XMP for example, if previously it was off.

There is a good chance, single DIMM tests will pass.

Next, you test A1A2 DIMMS in A1A2 again, by themselves. But if a failure is
detected with this 2DPC case, we don't really know which DIMM. And if we install
one DIMM only again, it might well pass.

*******

My system isn't bodged very much. Only VCCSA (memory controller) was bumped a tiny bit.
At this speed I'm using, it should hardly need to be bumped.

CPU VCore 1.098V

CPU VCCSA 1.277V (set to 1.250 manually, code yellow)

DRAM 1.652 (CHA, CHB) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed 1.65V
1.659 (CHC, CHD) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed 1.65V
There's not much point running at only 1.5V, which would be silly.
XMP can control this, and it would use 1.65V as well.
Intel says to not use more than 1.65V, which is where the number comes from.

CPU PLL 1.807V (usually higher than VCore and a separate supply pin provided, auto value)

VTTCPU 1.062V ??? (A terminator voltage, but is this for DMI ? Not sure.)

PCH 1.1V 1.110V
PCH 1.5V 1.501V

VTTDDR CHA,CHB This one and the ones below it, are not measured.
CHC,CHD The terminator voltage value is not exactly mid-rail.

The only thing I bumped then, was VCCSA, by a little bit.
That was in the hope I could get more than 1866MHz (on 2400 DIMMs)
while doing non-XMP manual tuning (since officially, using the XMP with
8 DIMMs is undefined and bus loading predicts it won't work
and will throw errors). It did throw errors at 2400, so I immediately
got it out of my head, it was ever going to run eight sticks
at 2400. It quite happily runs four 4GB sticks (SS) at 2400.

DDR3 still shows bus loading effects.

On my DDR4 machine, I just jammed'er on XMP and... it worked!
And it passed the tests! I got a good chuckle out of that, I
can tell you, after the hell of tuning the X79.

Paul

On 6/30/2023 3:26 AM, wasbit wrote:
> On 29/06/2023 01:12, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>
>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered
>> safe mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the
>> motherboard. It would not load; Best guess is that ASUS implementation
>> uses .NET to build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate in safe mode. I
>> could still use the ASUS utility within Windows proper but if there is
>> a memory error, I'm afraid that utility could cause damage.
>>
>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run
>> in safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb drive.
>> I'm willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers would
>> be appreciated.
>>
>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS
>> boards had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL;
>> they had no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but
>> helped get the problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and
>> new release of firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>
> As well as Memtest, Windows has it's own memory diagnostic.
>
> Link might wrap
>  -
> https://www.howtogeek.com/260813/how-to-test-your-computers-ram-for-problems/
Thanks for the pointers. I followed the instructions at "how to". No
errors were found. For a different result with another diagnostic, see
my post, in this thread with "(Followup)" add ed in the subject line.
--
Jeff Barnett

On 6/30/2023 6:35 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 6/30/2023 12:34 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> On 6/28/2023 6:12 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>>> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>>> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>>> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>>
>>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered
>>> safe mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the
>>> motherboard. It would not load; Best guess is that ASUS
>>> implementation uses .NET to build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't operate
>>> in safe mode. I could still use the ASUS utility within Windows
>>> proper but if there is a memory error, I'm afraid that utility could
>>> cause damage.
>>>
>>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will run
>>> in safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb
>>> drive. I'm willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any pointers
>>> would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS
>>> boards had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL;
>>> they had no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but
>>> helped get the problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and
>>> new release of firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>>
>>
>> I want to thank everyone who replied. As a result, I downloaded
>> Memtest, let it make a bootable thumb drive and tried to use it. No
>> problems with it booting and loading. However, I ran into the
>> following sequence of results that left me more puzzled than when I
>> started:
>>
>> First test: It loaded and started to run. After 36 minutes it was
>> performing Test 6 -- Block move, 64-byte blocks. At that point it
>> froze, i.e., neither its clock or animations gave any sign of life.
>>
>> Second test: It started spewing error messages, exceed some limit, and
>> stopped. First and last error message follow:
>>      First error message recorded: 2023-06-29 14:45:26 - [MEM ERROR
>>      - Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 8D305543C, Expected: 02020202,
>>      Actual: 82020202
>>
>>      Last error message output: 2023-06-29 14:45:45 - [MEM ERROR -
>>      Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 90F292834, Expected: 40404040,
>>      Actual: C0404040
>>
>> Third test: Ran for about 3 hours with no errors and finished one of
>> four repetitions at which point I halted testing. I then realized that
>> it had estimated the total amount of memory as about 48GB instead of
>> the actual 64GB. However, the firmware and Windows both showed the
>> full 64GB later.
>>
>> I should note that I recently have been generating blue screens, each
>> one with a different BCC code. From that I guessed hardware instead of
>> software problem and memory as a likely candidate. If Memtest had
>> performed more or less consistently, I would fully believe that
>> diagnoses but see the above results. I also don't know how to
>> translate the information from test two to either memory slots or
>> memory module designations.
>>
>> In other words, I'm stuck again. Another problem is that my memory
>> modules are under a massive CPU cooler and difficult to remove and
>> shuffle around. At this point, I'd be willing to pay a good tech to
>> complete the diagnoses necessary so I could effect repairs. (I live in
>> Albuquerque, NM and don't know of any such person around here.) Any
>> ideas on how to proceed would be most welcome.
>
> Note: The following is pure hypothesis. I'm only doing this to
>       demonstrate how hard it is for a programmer to get this right.
>       It doesn't matter how much money you pay, chance of error is large.
>
>       We are, for example, relying on the Tech Writer at Asus, to have
>       labeled the channels correctly. We are relying upon Intel doing
>       something reasonable in the decoder.
>
> https://images.hothardware.com/static/articleimages/Item1811/intel-x79-blockdiagram.png
>
>    [Picture]  "DRAM labeling according to Asus"
>
>     https://i.postimg.cc/W3mzg45k/P9-X79-layout.jpg
>
> By not installing the second fan on the dual tower cooler,
> both DIMM sets are equally accessible. The dual tower cooler
> does not really need the second fan.
>
> *******
>
> With all DRAM pages open, it behaves like a dual channel
> board, even though it is a four channel CPU. It should try
> to interleave on all DIMMs, like this, in a recurring pattern.
> The more DRAM pages a CPU can keep open, the faster it goes
> (on memory-bound work). How the pages interleave (the pivot),
> is immaterial for MEMTEST problems. Some strides in memory
> work faster than others, and that is how you figure out where
> pivots were placed. The pivot could be A11-A12 or so, or
> on four channels A12-A13, and since the number of pages changed,
> it could be even higher now. The pivot does not matter when
> decoding addresses for memory failures. Each generation of memory,
> has a different number of page registers inside.
>
>     A1(MS) B1(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>     C1(MS) D1(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>     A2(MS) B2(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>     C2(MS) D2(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>     ...
>     pattern repeats, in attempt to keep pages open.
>     Pages can close, considerably slowing down access (like during
> purely random access)
>
> 8D305543C = 37,900,080,188
>
> 90F292834 = 38,909,061,172     Expected: 40404040   Actual: C0404040
>
> The next error would be at 256 bytes later, if one chip was "blown". The
> next failure address would be:
>
> 90F292934
>
> We have to develop a decoder for the bits. The 34 is what needs to be
> decoded.
> Let us see what we can cook up.
>
>   0011 0100
>   \/\/ ||\/
>    | | || +---- index the 32 bit data word C0404040. This should stay
> at 00 always, on a failure.
>    | | |+------ which half of DIMM, upper or lower
>    | | +------- upper or lower channel (A1 or B1, A1 is one, B1 is zero)
>    | +--------- burst of four is immaterial with regard to which chip,
> only matters to bit identification
>    +----------- A1B1, C1D1, A2B2, C2D2 pair of indexing bits
>
> Error is on:
>
>    A1B1
>    On B1
>    Upper half of B1 (32 bit wide chunk)
>    The C0404040 tells us it is the upper byte (byte lane 7 I suppose)
>
> I suspect B1 :-) Hahaha. Or it could be Colonel Mustard in the drawingroom.
>
> *******
>
> What we do, is after seeing one of these errors, we test one DIMM at
> a time. Total of eight tests.
>
> The annoying part is, of course the stupid thing passes. With flying
> colours.
> I hardly need to tell you that.
>
> Place a single DIMM in any of A1/B1/C1/D1 (end of channel) and text the
> 8GB stick.
> A detected error then, is unambiguous. DO NOT change memory timings. Do not
> reach in and switch on XMP for example, if previously it was off.
>
> There is a good chance, single DIMM tests will pass.
>
> Next, you test A1A2 DIMMS in A1A2 again, by themselves. But if a failure is
> detected with this 2DPC case, we don't really know which DIMM. And if we
> install
> one DIMM only again, it might well pass.
>
> *******
>
> My system isn't bodged very much. Only VCCSA (memory controller) was
> bumped a tiny bit.
> At this speed I'm using, it should hardly need to be bumped.
>
> CPU VCore   1.098V
>
> CPU VCCSA   1.277V  (set to 1.250 manually, code yellow)
>
> DRAM        1.652  (CHA, CHB) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed 1.65V
>             1.659  (CHC, CHD) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed
> 1.65V
>                               There's not much point running at only
> 1.5V, which would be silly.
>                               XMP can control this, and it would use
> 1.65V as well.
>                               Intel says to not use more than 1.65V,
> which is where the number comes from.
>
> CPU PLL     1.807V  (usually higher than VCore and a separate supply pin
> provided, auto value)
>
> VTTCPU      1.062V  ???  (A terminator voltage, but is this for DMI ?
> Not sure.)
>
> PCH 1.1V    1.110V
> PCH 1.5V    1.501V
>
> VTTDDR              CHA,CHB    This one and the ones below it, are not
> measured.
>                     CHC,CHD    The terminator voltage value is not
> exactly mid-rail.
>
> The only thing I bumped then, was VCCSA, by a little bit.
> That was in the hope I could get more than 1866MHz (on 2400 DIMMs)
> while doing non-XMP manual tuning (since officially, using the XMP with
> 8 DIMMs is undefined and bus loading predicts it won't work
> and will throw errors). It did throw errors at 2400, so I immediately
> got it out of my head, it was ever going to run eight sticks
> at 2400. It quite happily runs four 4GB sticks (SS) at 2400.
>
> DDR3 still shows bus loading effects.
>
> On my DDR4 machine, I just jammed'er on XMP and... it worked!
> And it passed the tests! I got a good chuckle out of that, I
> can tell you, after the hell of tuning the X79.

Click here to read the complete article

In message <u7mi6e$2hqpr$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:35:25,
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes
[]
>Place a single DIMM in any of A1/B1/C1/D1 (end of channel) and text the
>8GB stick.
>A detected error then, is unambiguous. DO NOT change memory timings. Do not
>reach in and switch on XMP for example, if previously it was off.
[]
Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200 ...

(Sorry, couldn't resist. This is now all so far above me that humour is
all I have left.

I hope the OP gets sorted.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Flobalob" actually means "Flowerpot" in Oddle-Poddle.

On 6/30/2023 4:07 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:

> Above you expressed surprise that the addresses did not start or end on an obvious hex break point. The log says that it was truncated to 500 total errors. When Memtest was running, I believe it said there were 10000(?) errors; who knows whether that is hex or decimal. I also have no idea how it selected the cut points in the errors list.
>
> Other points: I've been running with XMP since day one, i.e., for a long time. I told the firmware to use the XMP option recommended by G.SKILL and I have left all memory timings to that specification. The memory according to an ASUS utility runs at 2400 (it's design target) plus or minus a trivial amount (e.g., .1) when the CPU changes its clock. I presume speed change is based on a scale that allows memory and CPU clock ratios to be a simple rational number.
>
> I also have not touched memory voltages and set virtually everything else to automatic, i.e., let the firmware set it; and I have not tried to overclock the CPU so its max cycle rate is 3.9GHz with all sites (2 per core) running with the same clock.
>
> Unfortunately, I understand only a little about modern hardware and age has robbed me of the dexterity necessary to go through extensive swap cycles that included removing and remounting the CPU multiple times.
>
> In the early middle 1960s, I sent some time developing hardware diagnostics, mostly for peripherals. I worked with the fellows who did CPU and memory work though. I remember that those diagnostics would some times identify a basic component, its exact location, and instruct the tech to replace it. It was my hope that a today's diagnostic would give results such as: replace CPU; replace motherboard; replace memory modules in slots x, y, and z. Even at this chunk size, the information would be very useful.
>
> My goal is to keep this machine and another running for another 4-6 months then build replacements out of more modern hardware.

Your first mistake, is in thinking that XMP for that generation
of machine, handles 1 DimmPerChannel and 2 DimmPerChannel cases.

There are two table entries on the DIMM example shown next, but
the different between the two entries is Command Rate, not "Timing".

A 2T Command Rate, puts the info on the bus for two cycles, and
via having lots of Tsu, clocks it in on the second cycle. The
2T Command Rate option, is useful for heavy bus loads, or for exceptionally
(out of JEDEC spec) bus speeds. On Intel, if given their druthers,
they prefer to always run at 2T. It's how they hope to hide any
"drive current issues", by hiding behind the 2T hack.

DIMM # 1
SMBus address 0x50
Memory type DDR3
Module format UDIMM
Module Manufacturer(ID) G.Skill (7F7F7F7FCD000000000000000000)
SDRAM Manufacturer (ID) G.Skill (7F7F7F7FCD000000000000000000)
Size 8192 MBytes
Max bandwidth PC3-19200 (1200 MHz)
Max JEDEC PC3-10700 (667 MHz)
Part number F3-2400C10-8GTX
Number of banks 8
Nominal Voltage 1.50 Volts
EPP no
XMP yes, rev. 1.3
AMP no
JEDEC timings table CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-tRC @ frequency
JEDEC #1 5.0-5-5-14-19 @ 380 MHz
JEDEC #2 6.0-6-6-17-23 @ 457 MHz
JEDEC #3 7.0-7-7-20-27 @ 533 MHz
JEDEC #4 8.0-8-8-22-30 @ 609 MHz
JEDEC #5 9.0-9-9-24-33 @ 666 MHz
JEDEC #6 10.0-9-9-24-33 @ 666 MHz <=== used the first time you start the new build
XMP profile XMP-2400 <=== rated/tested enthusiast speed
Specification PC3-19200
VDD Voltage 1.650 Volts
Min Cycle time 0.833 ns (1200 MHz)
Max CL 10.0
Min tRP 9.38 ns
Min tRCD 9.38 ns
Min tWR 13.25 ns
Min tRAS 25.38 ns
Min tRC 35.31 ns
Min tRFC 260.00 ns
Min tRTP 7.50 ns
Min tRRD 5.00 ns
Command Rate 2T
XMP timings table CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-tRC-CR @ frequency (voltage)
XMP #1 10.0-12-12-31-43-2T @ 1200 MHz (1.650 Volts) [ 1DPC, 2T command rate ] profile
XMP profile XMP-2400
Specification PC3-19200
VDD Voltage 1.650 Volts
Min Cycle time 0.833 ns (1200 MHz)
Max CL 10.0
Min tRP 9.69 ns
Min tRCD 9.69 ns
Min tWR 13.33 ns
Min tRAS 25.52 ns
Min tRC 35.52 ns
Min tRFC 260.42 ns
Min tRTP 7.50 ns
Min tRRD 5.00 ns
Command Rate 1T
XMP timings table CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-tRC-CR @ frequency (voltage)
XMP #1 10.0-12-12-31-43-1T @ 1200 MHz (1.650 Volts) [ 1DPC, 1T command rate ] unlikely to work
quite aggressive option

I understand some later version of the XMP "standard", attempts
to do a better job of handling the 1DPC and 2DPC cases.

But back when we built up our 4930K machines, the table only
handles 1DPC... twice. The table entry exists two times, but
both cases are for 1DPC. Not two DIMMs per channel.

For the memory manufacturer, it is harder to test in a
meaningful way, the 8x8GB case. That's because kits do not
necessarily come as 8x8GB. They come as 4x8GB and you buy
two of them. To certify a 2DPC table entry, they would
have to sell you one 8x8GB package containing the eight sticks
certified to work that way.

Now, like you, I "had to do the experiment, just as a hold-my-beer
experiment". I was greeted immediately with errors when I turned
on XMP with 8x8GB installed. For me, that was an expected outcome.

I have also done the very same experiment (the "should not work" experiment)
on my 5600G (four 16GB DDR4 DIMMs as 2DPC), and... it worked.
XMP with 2DPC was close enough to working, it was error free.
Part of the reason, was I was conservative with my speed selection
on the RAM, and that may have helped a bit. The System Agent (SA)
in that case, doesn't have to work quite as hard.

If they would do XMP for us, then let us change individual parameters,
that would shorten the search for manual tuning values. I simply adjusted
the clock speed, until it worked (the BIOS recomputes Tcas when you do
that, so it's still a bit aggressive as a testing method). If you took
Tcas off auto, you could manually set it. The settings can individually
be taken off manual, if you're careful and think about what you're doing.

If you use CPUZ from cpuid.com , it may have the latest XMP standards
contained in its parsing code, and for newer systems, may display what
things the XMP table actually supports. This can save some effort on
research.

The 5600G I bought, is maybe a bit more powerful than the 4930K,
due to the clock speed being a bit higher (but it definitely does
not have the PCI Express resources and slots!) .

The 4930K idles at 100W or so.
The 5600G from AMD idles at 42 watts. A small saving is obtained, by
using the less-worthy Southbridge on my motherboard (it's the Southbridge
that does not need a big heatsink). The 5600G ran so cool, that the
BIOS code that programs fan speed *never engaged*. I never got to
see how the power management works on my board. Silly, or what.
And you need to learn that shit, if doing upgrades. It's important
to know how the closed loop power management works on modern systems,
before you buy. When a system promises to use 226 watts on the CPU for
short periods of time, you need to know how that is possible, and
what is going to get warm. And, what is not going to get warm.

Zen3 5600G, one of four DDR4 DIMMs (that's why the DIMM voltage values are lower)

DIMM # 1
SMBus address 0x50
Memory type DDR4
Module format UDIMM
Module Manufacturer(ID) G.Skill (7F7F7F7FCD000000000000000000)
SDRAM Manufacturer (ID) SK Hynix (AD00000000000000000000000000)
Size 16384 MBytes
Max bandwidth DDR4-3200 (1600 MHz)
Max JEDEC DDR4-2133 (1066 MHz)
Part number F4-3200C16-16GVK
Nominal Voltage 1.20 Volts
EPP no
XMP yes, rev. 2.0 <=== compare to the 4930K machine
AMP no
JEDEC timings table CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-tRC @ frequency
JEDEC #1 10.0-11-11-25-35 @ 733 MHz
JEDEC #2 11.0-11-11-27-38 @ 800 MHz
JEDEC #3 12.0-12-12-29-41 @ 866 MHz
JEDEC #4 13.0-13-13-31-44 @ 933 MHz
JEDEC #5 14.0-15-15-35-49 @ 1033 MHz
JEDEC #6 15.0-15-15-36-50 @ 1066 MHz
JEDEC #7 16.0-15-15-36-50 @ 1066 MHz
XMP profile XMP-3200
Specification DDR4-3200
VDD Voltage 1.350 Volts
Min Cycle time 0.625 ns (1600 MHz)
Max CL 16.0
Min tRP 11.25 ns
Min tRCD 11.25 ns
Min tRAS 23.75 ns
Min tRC 35.00 ns
Min tRRD 2.50 ns
XMP timings table CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-tRC-CR @ frequency (voltage)
XMP #1 16.0-18-18-38-56-n.a @ 1600 MHz (1.350 Volts) <=== only one table entry, 1DPC
Me switching on for 2DPC, is "naughty",
but it worked.

Once you play with a new system, it takes some getting used to.
The damn 5600G machine has caught me by surprise more than once. The
old 4930K, it was "set and forget". Use a big heatsink, done.
That was the "design equation" for the user.

*******

You can see in my picture of the 4930K, that with only one
fan on the D15, there is room to access the DIMMs on both
sides of the heatsink. But I have had to use a wooden stick,
to push on a release lever on a DIMM. So some things are
easier to do than others.

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
....
> > Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/

> I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
> the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
> rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.

I booted my old original 64-bit W7 Home Premium (English)'s ISO in
VirtualBox and didn't see it. Same for my old installed, updated 64-bit
W7 HPE SP1 VM. Where the frak did I see it? Maybe my brain is broken! :(

--
"O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord." --Jeremiah 22:29. Fell behind from a ~19 hrs. local beach vacation trip with the extended colony, didn't have time 2 hang out with old buds, hurt da old body (flying stingy social insect's stinger & fall), & getting hot. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 7/1/2023 11:46 PM, Ant wrote:
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> ...
>>> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
>
>> I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
>> the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
>> rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.
>
> I booted my old original 64-bit W7 Home Premium (English)'s ISO in
> VirtualBox and didn't see it. Same for my old installed, updated 64-bit
> W7 HPE SP1 VM. Where the frak did I see it? Maybe my brain is broken! :(
>

It's in there. Tested in a VM. Just the DVD (no need to install or anything).

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/c4vmRB5z/brain-is-OK.gif

It may try and stuff the result in the Eventvwr of the C: drive OS.
I was running it the other day, and was not sitting at the computer
when it finished, and the fun part was finding the log entry.
(You can launch it from a running Windows as well.)

Paul

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 7/1/2023 11:46 PM, Ant wrote:
> > Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> > ...
> >>> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
> >
> >> I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
> >> the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
> >> rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.
> >
> > I booted my old original 64-bit W7 Home Premium (English)'s ISO in
> > VirtualBox and didn't see it. Same for my old installed, updated 64-bit
> > W7 HPE SP1 VM. Where the frak did I see it? Maybe my brain is broken! :(
> >

> It's in there. Tested in a VM. Just the DVD (no need to install or anything).

> [Picture]

> https://i.postimg.cc/c4vmRB5z/brain-is-OK.gif

> It may try and stuff the result in the Eventvwr of the C: drive OS.
> I was running it the other day, and was not sitting at the computer
> when it finished, and the fun part was finding the log entry.
> (You can launch it from a running Windows as well.)

Oh, in System Recovery. I didn't check in there. I used to think it was in the text menu (F8).
--
"O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord." --Jeremiah 22:29. Fell behind from a ~19 hrs. local beach vacation trip with the extended colony, didn't have time 2 hang out with old buds, hurt da old body (flying stingy social insect's stinger & fall), & getting hot. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 7/2/2023 3:21 AM, Ant wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On 7/1/2023 11:46 PM, Ant wrote:
>>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
>>>
>>>> I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
>>>> the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
>>>> rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.
>>>
>>> I booted my old original 64-bit W7 Home Premium (English)'s ISO in
>>> VirtualBox and didn't see it. Same for my old installed, updated 64-bit
>>> W7 HPE SP1 VM. Where the frak did I see it? Maybe my brain is broken! :(
>>>
>
>> It's in there. Tested in a VM. Just the DVD (no need to install or anything).
>
>> [Picture]
>
>> https://i.postimg.cc/c4vmRB5z/brain-is-OK.gif
>
>> It may try and stuff the result in the Eventvwr of the C: drive OS.
>> I was running it the other day, and was not sitting at the computer
>> when it finished, and the fun part was finding the log entry.
>> (You can launch it from a running Windows as well.)
>
> Oh, in System Recovery. I didn't check in there. I used to think it was in the text menu (F8).
>

It is :-)

But that is generally on the installed OS, when you use the
traditional Black Screen boot menu. It's the boot menu that
also has F8 for Safe Mode. The memory test is below the F8 line.

See, you have an excellent memory.

Paul

On 6/30/2023 2:07 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 6/30/2023 6:35 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 6/30/2023 12:34 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>> On 6/28/2023 6:12 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>> CONFIGURATION: My configuration consist of an Intel Core i7-4930K
>>>> Processor, on an ASUS X79-Deluxe motherboard, with G.SKILL Ripjaws Z
>>>> Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model
>>>> F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD memory. I'm running Win7 PRO SP1 64-bit.
>>>>
>>>> PROBLEM: Recently, I wanted to run a memory diagnostic so I entered
>>>> safe mode and tried to run the one supplied by ASUS with the
>>>> motherboard. It would not load; Best guess is that ASUS
>>>> implementation uses .NET to build a cute GUI but .NET doesn't
>>>> operate in safe mode. I could still use the ASUS utility within
>>>> Windows proper but if there is a memory error, I'm afraid that
>>>> utility could cause damage.
>>>>
>>>> NEED: So I'm looking for some sort of memory diagnostic that will
>>>> run in safe mode or is able to boot from an optical disk or a thumb
>>>> drive. I'm willing to pay a few bucks or use a free one. Any
>>>> pointers would be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> HISTORY: When we built our computers, several years ago, the ASUS
>>>> boards had difficulty supporting 64GB memory so I talked to G.SKILL;
>>>> they had no diagnostics they would share with the public (me) but
>>>> helped get the problem resolved with ASUS by board replacements and
>>>> new release of firmware. Since that time, memory has been rock solid.
>>>
>>>
>>> I want to thank everyone who replied. As a result, I downloaded
>>> Memtest, let it make a bootable thumb drive and tried to use it. No
>>> problems with it booting and loading. However, I ran into the
>>> following sequence of results that left me more puzzled than when I
>>> started:
>>>
>>> First test: It loaded and started to run. After 36 minutes it was
>>> performing Test 6 -- Block move, 64-byte blocks. At that point it
>>> froze, i.e., neither its clock or animations gave any sign of life.
>>>
>>> Second test: It started spewing error messages, exceed some limit,
>>> and stopped. First and last error message follow:
>>>      First error message recorded: 2023-06-29 14:45:26 - [MEM ERROR
>>>      - Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 8D305543C, Expected: 02020202,
>>>      Actual: 82020202
>>>
>>>      Last error message output: 2023-06-29 14:45:45 - [MEM ERROR -
>>>      Data] Test: 4, CPU: 0, Address: 90F292834, Expected: 40404040,
>>>      Actual: C0404040
>>>
>>> Third test: Ran for about 3 hours with no errors and finished one of
>>> four repetitions at which point I halted testing. I then realized
>>> that it had estimated the total amount of memory as about 48GB
>>> instead of the actual 64GB. However, the firmware and Windows both
>>> showed the full 64GB later.
>>>
>>> I should note that I recently have been generating blue screens, each
>>> one with a different BCC code. From that I guessed hardware instead
>>> of software problem and memory as a likely candidate. If Memtest had
>>> performed more or less consistently, I would fully believe that
>>> diagnoses but see the above results. I also don't know how to
>>> translate the information from test two to either memory slots or
>>> memory module designations.
>>>
>>> In other words, I'm stuck again. Another problem is that my memory
>>> modules are under a massive CPU cooler and difficult to remove and
>>> shuffle around. At this point, I'd be willing to pay a good tech to
>>> complete the diagnoses necessary so I could effect repairs. (I live
>>> in Albuquerque, NM and don't know of any such person around here.)
>>> Any ideas on how to proceed would be most welcome.
>>
>> Note: The following is pure hypothesis. I'm only doing this to
>>        demonstrate how hard it is for a programmer to get this right.
>>        It doesn't matter how much money you pay, chance of error is
>> large.
>>
>>        We are, for example, relying on the Tech Writer at Asus, to have
>>        labeled the channels correctly. We are relying upon Intel doing
>>        something reasonable in the decoder.
>>
>> https://images.hothardware.com/static/articleimages/Item1811/intel-x79-blockdiagram.png
>>
>>     [Picture]  "DRAM labeling according to Asus"
>>
>>      https://i.postimg.cc/W3mzg45k/P9-X79-layout.jpg
>>
>> By not installing the second fan on the dual tower cooler,
>> both DIMM sets are equally accessible. The dual tower cooler
>> does not really need the second fan.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> With all DRAM pages open, it behaves like a dual channel
>> board, even though it is a four channel CPU. It should try
>> to interleave on all DIMMs, like this, in a recurring pattern.
>> The more DRAM pages a CPU can keep open, the faster it goes
>> (on memory-bound work). How the pages interleave (the pivot),
>> is immaterial for MEMTEST problems. Some strides in memory
>> work faster than others, and that is how you figure out where
>> pivots were placed. The pivot could be A11-A12 or so, or
>> on four channels A12-A13, and since the number of pages changed,
>> it could be even higher now. The pivot does not matter when
>> decoding addresses for memory failures. Each generation of memory,
>> has a different number of page registers inside.
>>
>>      A1(MS) B1(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
>> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>>      C1(MS) D1(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
>> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>>      A2(MS) B2(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
>> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>>      C2(MS) D2(LS)   64byte Line Size, Burst-of-4 times 16 bytes (each
>> DIMM 8 bytes wide)
>>      ...
>>      pattern repeats, in attempt to keep pages open.
>>      Pages can close, considerably slowing down access (like during
>> purely random access)
>>
>> 8D305543C = 37,900,080,188
>>
>> 90F292834 = 38,909,061,172     Expected: 40404040   Actual: C0404040
>>
>> The next error would be at 256 bytes later, if one chip was "blown".
>> The next failure address would be:
>>
>> 90F292934
>>
>> We have to develop a decoder for the bits. The 34 is what needs to be
>> decoded.
>> Let us see what we can cook up.
>>
>>    0011 0100
>>    \/\/ ||\/
>>     | | || +---- index the 32 bit data word C0404040. This should stay
>> at 00 always, on a failure.
>>     | | |+------ which half of DIMM, upper or lower
>>     | | +------- upper or lower channel (A1 or B1, A1 is one, B1 is zero)
>>     | +--------- burst of four is immaterial with regard to which
>> chip, only matters to bit identification
>>     +----------- A1B1, C1D1, A2B2, C2D2 pair of indexing bits
>>
>> Error is on:
>>
>>     A1B1
>>     On B1
>>     Upper half of B1 (32 bit wide chunk)
>>     The C0404040 tells us it is the upper byte (byte lane 7 I suppose)
>>
>> I suspect B1 :-) Hahaha. Or it could be Colonel Mustard in the
>> drawingroom.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> What we do, is after seeing one of these errors, we test one DIMM at
>> a time. Total of eight tests.
>>
>> The annoying part is, of course the stupid thing passes. With flying
>> colours.
>> I hardly need to tell you that.
>>
>> Place a single DIMM in any of A1/B1/C1/D1 (end of channel) and text
>> the 8GB stick.
>> A detected error then, is unambiguous. DO NOT change memory timings.
>> Do not
>> reach in and switch on XMP for example, if previously it was off.
>>
>> There is a good chance, single DIMM tests will pass.
>>
>> Next, you test A1A2 DIMMS in A1A2 again, by themselves. But if a
>> failure is
>> detected with this 2DPC case, we don't really know which DIMM. And if
>> we install
>> one DIMM only again, it might well pass.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> My system isn't bodged very much. Only VCCSA (memory controller) was
>> bumped a tiny bit.
>> At this speed I'm using, it should hardly need to be bumped.
>>
>> CPU VCore   1.098V
>>
>> CPU VCCSA   1.277V  (set to 1.250 manually, code yellow)
>>
>> DRAM        1.652  (CHA, CHB) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed
>> 1.65V
>>              1.659  (CHC, CHD) Auto, it sets itself to CPU_MAX_allowed
>> 1.65V
>>                                There's not much point running at only
>> 1.5V, which would be silly.
>>                                XMP can control this, and it would use
>> 1.65V as well.
>>                                Intel says to not use more than 1.65V,
>> which is where the number comes from.
>>
>> CPU PLL     1.807V  (usually higher than VCore and a separate supply
>> pin provided, auto value)
>>
>> VTTCPU      1.062V  ???  (A terminator voltage, but is this for DMI ?
>> Not sure.)
>>
>> PCH 1.1V    1.110V
>> PCH 1.5V    1.501V
>>
>> VTTDDR              CHA,CHB    This one and the ones below it, are not
>> measured.
>>                      CHC,CHD    The terminator voltage value is not
>> exactly mid-rail.
>>
>> The only thing I bumped then, was VCCSA, by a little bit.
>> That was in the hope I could get more than 1866MHz (on 2400 DIMMs)
>> while doing non-XMP manual tuning (since officially, using the XMP with
>> 8 DIMMs is undefined and bus loading predicts it won't work
>> and will throw errors). It did throw errors at 2400, so I immediately
>> got it out of my head, it was ever going to run eight sticks
>> at 2400. It quite happily runs four 4GB sticks (SS) at 2400.
>>
>> DDR3 still shows bus loading effects.
>>
>> On my DDR4 machine, I just jammed'er on XMP and... it worked!
>> And it passed the tests! I got a good chuckle out of that, I
>> can tell you, after the hell of tuning the X79.
>
> Above you expressed surprise that the addresses did not start or end on
> an obvious hex break point. The log says that it was truncated to 500
> total errors. When Memtest was running, I believe it said there were
> 10000(?) errors; who knows whether that is hex or decimal. I also have
> no idea how it selected the cut points in the errors list.
>
> Other points: I've been running with XMP since day one, i.e., for a long
> time. I told the firmware to use the XMP option recommended by G.SKILL
> and I have left all memory timings to that specification. The memory
> according to an ASUS utility runs at 2400 (it's design target) plus or
> minus a trivial amount (e.g., .1) when the CPU changes its clock. I
> presume speed change is based on a scale that allows memory and CPU
> clock ratios to be a simple rational number.
>
> I also have not touched memory voltages and set virtually everything
> else to automatic, i.e., let the firmware set it; and I have not tried
> to overclock the CPU so its max cycle rate is 3.9GHz with all sites (2
> per core) running with the same clock.
>
> Unfortunately, I understand only a little about modern hardware and age
> has robbed me of the dexterity necessary to go through extensive swap
> cycles that included removing and remounting the CPU multiple times.
>
> In the early middle 1960s, I sent some time developing hardware
> diagnostics, mostly for peripherals. I worked with the fellows who did
> CPU and memory work though. I remember that those diagnostics would some
> times identify a basic component, its exact location, and instruct the
> tech to replace it. It was my hope that a today's diagnostic would give
> results such as: replace CPU; replace motherboard; replace memory
> modules in slots x, y, and z. Even at this chunk size, the information
> would be very useful.
>
> My goal is to keep this machine and another running for another 4-6
> months then build replacements out of more modern hardware.

Click here to read the complete article

In message <u7ssm3$3e8sg$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 2 Jul 2023 16:11:12,
Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes
[]
>My machine now seems to be rock stable again after a week or more of
>consistent blue screens with "inconsistent" reasons. I am now convinced
>that the error is confined to a pair of memory sticks or the slots they
>are in.
>
>The firmware, windows, and the ASUS "AI Suite 3" utility now all agree
>that I have 48GB of memory. There is actually 64GB plugged on the
>motherboard. All of the testing and pounding that diagnostics have done
>probably convinced the firmware not to count two of the eight sticks.

Or, the two (?) sticks (or slots) have degraded from intermittent to not
working at all.
>
>My remaining problem is that I can't tell from the information
>available to me what the two slots are. When I look at firmware options
>preboot, I find that it has timings for all four slot pairs. (Probably
>an artifact of using XMP.)

You _could_ try setting all to very conservative settings and seeing if
it comes back to 64 GB reported.
>
>At this point, I'd like to remove the two sticks that either are not
>working or that are plugged into two slots that are failed. I can work
>for several more months and wont really rue the memory decrease. The
>reason for wanting to remove them is that the hardware is more likely
>to go from latent bad to aggressive bad with the current state.

Agreed.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Less rules means fewer grammar? - Marjorie in UMRA, 2014-1-28 13:14

On 7/2/2023 7:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <u7ssm3$3e8sg$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 2 Jul 2023 16:11:12, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes
> []
>> My machine now seems to be rock stable again after a week or more of consistent blue screens with "inconsistent" reasons. I am now convinced that the error is confined to a pair of memory sticks or the slots they are in.
>>
>> The firmware, windows, and the ASUS "AI Suite 3" utility now all agree that I have 48GB of memory. There is actually 64GB plugged on the motherboard. All of the testing and pounding that diagnostics have done probably convinced the firmware not to count two of the eight sticks.
>
> Or, the two (?) sticks (or slots) have degraded from intermittent to not working at all.
>>
>> My remaining problem is that I can't tell from the information available to me what the two slots are. When I look at firmware options preboot, I find that it has timings for all four slot pairs. (Probably an artifact of using XMP.)
>
> You _could_ try setting all to very conservative settings and seeing if it comes back to 64 GB reported.
>>
>> At this point, I'd like to remove the two sticks that either are not working or that are plugged into two slots that are failed. I can work for several more months and wont really rue the memory decrease. The reason for wanting to remove them is that the hardware is more likely to go from latent bad to aggressive bad with the current state.
>
> Agreed.
> []

Channel failures seemed to start with the three channel systems (LGA1366).
That's from a time before Jeffs four channel system (LGA2011 ?).

Rather than the LGA (Land Grid Array) lever being loose and some contacts not
being made, it seemed to be related to a voltage problem. Some
voltage not quite right, seemed to contribute to a portion of
the DIMM set, not being detected or commissioned or something.

I don't remember all the details, except the "non-intuitive" nature
of the failure. Makes no sense. why should a voltage adjustment,
cause some DIMMs to wink out.

Now, there *is* a mechanism, of sorts.

Modern DIMMs have SPD tables, an EEPROM on each DIMM.

Years ago, someone presented evidence that the SPD
on their DIMM, did not match the RAM chip installation
pattern. The SPD was telling a "lie". Well, the BIOS was not
fooled one bit. It does a power of two storage test. It
writes a value on boundaries, then goes back afterwards and
tries to read the values back, This allows the BIOS to "measure"
the size of the DIMM. So if the SPD said it was 8GB, the
BIOS would measure and get 4GB as the value. And, it would
use 4GB when setting things up.

The DIMMs undoubtedly all report in, in this case. All eight SPD
chips can be read OK. But when the BIOS sized the DIMMs, it may have
chucked away a port of the memory map. Because the memory was not
reliably able to save the values the BIOS was writing.

A boundary test is very fast, so users don't have to worry about
that affecting their boot time.

That's a portion of a potential mechanism, but it still does not
explain the "why" part of it.

Even though Jeff sees 48GB, he should check CPU-Z and see if all
eight SPD tables are presented or not, in the SPD section. Adjust VCCSA
(System Agent, the memory controller) by a tiny bit, then see if
the next POST reports a different qty of memory.

Paul

On 7/2/2023 6:59 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 7/2/2023 7:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <u7ssm3$3e8sg$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 2 Jul 2023 16:11:12,
>> Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes
>> []
>>> My machine now seems to be rock stable again after a week or more of
>>> consistent blue screens with "inconsistent" reasons. I am now
>>> convinced that the error is confined to a pair of memory sticks or
>>> the slots they are in.
>>>
>>> The firmware, windows, and the ASUS "AI Suite 3" utility now all
>>> agree that I have 48GB of memory. There is actually 64GB plugged on
>>> the motherboard. All of the testing and pounding that diagnostics
>>> have done probably convinced the firmware not to count two of the
>>> eight sticks.
>>
>> Or, the two (?) sticks (or slots) have degraded from intermittent to
>> not working at all.
>>>
>>> My remaining problem is that I can't tell from the information
>>> available to me what the two slots are. When I look at firmware
>>> options preboot, I find that it has timings for all four slot pairs.
>>> (Probably an artifact of using XMP.)
>>
>> You _could_ try setting all to very conservative settings and seeing
>> if it comes back to 64 GB reported.
>>>
>>> At this point, I'd like to remove the two sticks that either are not
>>> working or that are plugged into two slots that are failed. I can
>>> work for several more months and wont really rue the memory decrease.
>>> The reason for wanting to remove them is that the hardware is more
>>> likely to go from latent bad to aggressive bad with the current state.
>>
>> Agreed.
>> []
>
> Channel failures seemed to start with the three channel systems (LGA1366).
> That's from a time before Jeffs four channel system (LGA2011 ?).
>
> Rather than the LGA (Land Grid Array) lever being loose and some
> contacts not
> being made, it seemed to be related to a voltage problem. Some
> voltage not quite right, seemed to contribute to a portion of
> the DIMM set, not being detected or commissioned or something.
>
> I don't remember all the details, except the "non-intuitive" nature
> of the failure. Makes no sense. why should a voltage adjustment,
> cause some DIMMs to wink out.
>
> Now, there *is* a mechanism, of sorts.
>
> Modern DIMMs have SPD tables, an EEPROM on each DIMM.
>
> Years ago, someone presented evidence that the SPD
> on their DIMM, did not match the RAM chip installation
> pattern. The SPD was telling a "lie". Well, the BIOS was not
> fooled one bit. It does a power of two storage test. It
> writes a value on boundaries, then goes back afterwards and
> tries to read the values back, This allows the BIOS to "measure"
> the size of the DIMM. So if the SPD said it was 8GB, the
> BIOS would measure and get 4GB as the value. And, it would
> use 4GB when setting things up.
>
> The DIMMs undoubtedly all report in, in this case. All eight SPD
> chips can be read OK. But when the BIOS sized the DIMMs, it may have
> chucked away a port of the memory map. Because the memory was not
> reliably able to save the values the BIOS was writing.
>
> A boundary test is very fast, so users don't have to worry about
> that affecting their boot time.
>
> That's a portion of a potential mechanism, but it still does not
> explain the "why" part of it.
>
> Even though Jeff sees 48GB, he should check CPU-Z and see if all
> eight SPD tables are presented or not, in the SPD section. Adjust VCCSA
> (System Agent, the memory controller) by a tiny bit, then see if
> the next POST reports a different qty of memory.
I ran CPU-Z: it showed what looks like 64GB on the memory tab; on the
SPD tab it it offers information for all slots/sticks. Any idea what
that means and how I tell which pair is failing?
--
Jeff Barnett

On 7/3/2023 12:24 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 7/2/2023 6:59 PM, Paul wrote:
>> On 7/2/2023 7:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> In message <u7ssm3$3e8sg$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 2 Jul 2023 16:11:12, Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes
>>> []
>>>> My machine now seems to be rock stable again after a week or more of consistent blue screens with "inconsistent" reasons. I am now convinced that the error is confined to a pair of memory sticks or the slots they are in.
>>>>
>>>> The firmware, windows, and the ASUS "AI Suite 3" utility now all agree that I have 48GB of memory. There is actually 64GB plugged on the motherboard. All of the testing and pounding that diagnostics have done probably convinced the firmware not to count two of the eight sticks.
>>>
>>> Or, the two (?) sticks (or slots) have degraded from intermittent to not working at all.
>>>>
>>>> My remaining problem is that I can't tell from the information available to me what the two slots are. When I look at firmware options preboot, I find that it has timings for all four slot pairs. (Probably an artifact of using XMP.)
>>>
>>> You _could_ try setting all to very conservative settings and seeing if it comes back to 64 GB reported.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I'd like to remove the two sticks that either are not working or that are plugged into two slots that are failed. I can work for several more months and wont really rue the memory decrease. The reason for wanting to remove them is that the hardware is more likely to go from latent bad to aggressive bad with the current state.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>> []
>>
>> Channel failures seemed to start with the three channel systems (LGA1366).
>> That's from a time before Jeffs four channel system (LGA2011 ?).
>>
>> Rather than the LGA (Land Grid Array) lever being loose and some contacts not
>> being made, it seemed to be related to a voltage problem. Some
>> voltage not quite right, seemed to contribute to a portion of
>> the DIMM set, not being detected or commissioned or something.
>>
>> I don't remember all the details, except the "non-intuitive" nature
>> of the failure. Makes no sense. why should a voltage adjustment,
>> cause some DIMMs to wink out.
>>
>> Now, there *is* a mechanism, of sorts.
>>
>> Modern DIMMs have SPD tables, an EEPROM on each DIMM.
>>
>> Years ago, someone presented evidence that the SPD
>> on their DIMM, did not match the RAM chip installation
>> pattern. The SPD was telling a "lie". Well, the BIOS was not
>> fooled one bit. It does a power of two storage test. It
>> writes a value on boundaries, then goes back afterwards and
>> tries to read the values back, This allows the BIOS to "measure"
>> the size of the DIMM. So if the SPD said it was 8GB, the
>> BIOS would measure and get 4GB as the value. And, it would
>> use 4GB when setting things up.
>>
>> The DIMMs undoubtedly all report in, in this case. All eight SPD
>> chips can be read OK. But when the BIOS sized the DIMMs, it may have
>> chucked away a port of the memory map. Because the memory was not
>> reliably able to save the values the BIOS was writing.
>>
>> A boundary test is very fast, so users don't have to worry about
>> that affecting their boot time.
>>
>> That's a portion of a potential mechanism, but it still does not
>> explain the "why" part of it.
>>
>> Even though Jeff sees 48GB, he should check CPU-Z and see if all
>> eight SPD tables are presented or not, in the SPD section. Adjust VCCSA
>> (System Agent, the memory controller) by a tiny bit, then see if
>> the next POST reports a different qty of memory.
> I ran CPU-Z: it showed what looks like 64GB on the memory tab;
> on the SPD tab it it offers information for all slots/sticks.
> Any idea what that means and how I tell which pair is failing?

I first started with Memtest, but did not see anything in
the Version 6 beta I've got, for displaying that sort of detail.
I edited the source once on Memtest and made my own copy, and
remember references to E820 in there. That was back in my NForce2 days,
when I was measuring the speed difference between single channel and dual channel
memory spaces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E820

Using Linux, I booted and opened a terminal.

dmesg | less

BIOS-e820 gives a memory map.

I'll save you the effort.
And write a summary.

BIOS-e820 3GB low memory
1GB memory "hole", no memory here, IO address maps here
61GB high memory, with memory hole hoisted above 4GB

3GB + 61GB = 64GB memory (address map is 65GB wide, which includes the 1GB hole).

The problem is, the E820 reports the 61GB as one contiguous range,
with no breakdown into "sticks". It does not show "holes".

Memtest relies upon BIOS calls, for the information it needs.
It avoids testing any range that E820 marks as "Reserved".

To futz with registers directly (chip select programming),
that would be an infinite amount of work for the memtest crew.
There might be a couple hundred memory controllers by now,
each one different. By adhering to a standard API, the E820
interface takes a lot of pain out of the mapping process (likely
a linear map from virtual to physical).

You can see even here, the user is flummoxed.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1391630/ubuntu-does-not-detect-new-ram-but-bios-does

He installs 4x4GB? and this is what he sees in Ubuntu.

Total online memory: 8G
Total offline memory: 0B

The missing memory is not considered offline. Presumably
because the BIOS hid the corpses :-/

There are even ways to disable memory, by editing the BCD,
but we know you did not do that. That is useful for testing
sub-population, without pulling DIMMs.

Paul

On 7/3/2023 12:24 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:

> I ran CPU-Z: it showed what looks like 64GB on the memory tab;
> on the SPD tab it it offers information for all slots/sticks.
> Any idea what that means and how I tell which pair is failing?

CPU-Z can dump a text file. One of the tabs has various Save options.
The file is saved as <machinename>.txt , so mine is BLUEWAVE.txt

In it, there is the DMI recording info for RAM subsystem. DMI is
an area of BIOS flash, maintained by the BIOS, and used in corporate
settings for "inventory control". It is used in conjunction with
door closure switches as a means of detecting tampering with box contents.
At work, there was a scheme to upload DMI on a regular basis,
but the project was abandoned as unworkable.

DMI Physical Memory Array
location Motherboard
usage System Memory
correction None
max capacity 96 GB <=== presumably, this is total address space, and = 64GB RAM + video card mapping
max# of devices 8

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelA_Dimm1 <=== this motherboard names the DIMMs
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB <=== I think these are SPD values, but it could be BIOS-sizing value too...
This is what I want you to check out.

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelA_Dimm2
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelB_Dimm1
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelB_Dimm2
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelC_Dimm1
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelC_Dimm2
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelD_Dimm1
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

DMI Memory Device
designation ChannelD_Dimm2
format DIMM
type DDR3
total width 64 bits
data width 64 bits
size 8 GB

Paul

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 7/2/2023 3:21 AM, Ant wrote:
> > Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 7/1/2023 11:46 PM, Ant wrote:
> >>> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>>> Didn't WIndows 7 come with its own memtest? Also, memtest86+: https://memtest.org/
> >>>
> >>>> I've certainly seen an option somewhere, but think it's an option from
> >>>> the install DVD, which the OP may not have - I can't check without
> >>>> rebooting this PC, which wouldn't be convenient ATM.
> >>>
> >>> I booted my old original 64-bit W7 Home Premium (English)'s ISO in
> >>> VirtualBox and didn't see it. Same for my old installed, updated 64-bit
> >>> W7 HPE SP1 VM. Where the frak did I see it? Maybe my brain is broken! :(
> >>>
> >
> >> It's in there. Tested in a VM. Just the DVD (no need to install or anything).
> >
> >> [Picture]
> >
> >> https://i.postimg.cc/c4vmRB5z/brain-is-OK.gif
> >
> >> It may try and stuff the result in the Eventvwr of the C: drive OS.
> >> I was running it the other day, and was not sitting at the computer
> >> when it finished, and the fun part was finding the log entry.
> >> (You can launch it from a running Windows as well.)
> >
> > Oh, in System Recovery. I didn't check in there. I used to think it was in the text menu (F8).
> >

> It is :-)

> But that is generally on the installed OS, when you use the
> traditional Black Screen boot menu. It's the boot menu that
> also has F8 for Safe Mode. The memory test is below the F8 line.

> See, you have an excellent memory.

Uh, I don't see it in my updated 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 VM: https://pasteboard.co/bUjA2VxTgJc2.gif
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