We have discussed, some time ago, how to deal with the article numbers
Elsevier journals have introduced, and someone suggested a pretty good
solution for citation in BibTeX, using page = {<no>:1--11} (for
example. But whoever maintains BibTeX, could they add article number as
an item?
--
Dieter Britz

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:46:02 PM UTC+12, db wrote:
> We have discussed, some time ago, how to deal with the article numbers
> Elsevier journals have introduced, and someone suggested a pretty good
> solution for citation in BibTeX, using page = {<no>:1--11} (for
> example. But whoever maintains BibTeX, could they add article number as
> an item?
> --
> Dieter Britz
Should that be page = {<no>:1-11} or page = {<no>:1--11} ?

On 18/04/2023 22:33, jfh wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:46:02 PM UTC+12, db wrote:
>> We have discussed, some time ago, how to deal with the article numbers
>> Elsevier journals have introduced, and someone suggested a pretty good
>> solution for citation in BibTeX, using page = {<no>:1--11} (for
>> example. But whoever maintains BibTeX, could they add article number as
>> an item?

It wouldn't be bibtex's maintainer, but the individual maintainers of
all the biblio styles. These .bst files are written in a unique language
used only for bibtex styles, and there is a declining number of people
interested in learning it.

> Should that be page = {<no>:1-11} or page = {<no>:1--11} ?

But bibtex is being replaced by biblatex, which is heavily supported and
written in LaTeX code, so there are *lots* of people able to help and
support.

Peter

On 18.04.2023 23.53, Peter Flynn wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 22:33, jfh wrote:
>> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:46:02 PM UTC+12, db wrote:
>>> We have discussed, some time ago, how to deal with the article numbers
>>> Elsevier journals have introduced, and someone suggested a pretty good
>>> solution for citation in BibTeX, using page = {<no>:1--11} (for
>>> example. But whoever maintains BibTeX, could they add article number as
>>> an item?
>
> It wouldn't be bibtex's maintainer, but the individual maintainers of
> all the biblio styles. These .bst files are written in a unique language
> used only for bibtex styles, and there is a declining number of people
> interested in learning it.
>
>> Should that be page = {<no>:1-11}  or  page = {<no>:1--11}  ?

I use the double hyphen, was advised to do so many years ago, not sure
why. Something to do with the length of the hyphen, I think.
>
> But bibtex is being replaced by biblatex, which is heavily supported and
> written in LaTeX code, so there are *lots* of people able to help and
> support.
>
> Peter

I don't know biblatex, maybe I should. But there must still be style
files for the form of the citation? The page = bla bla is a fix
suggested by someone here a couple of years ago, but it's a bit
klutzy and a new entry like article = or articlenumber = would be
better, I reckon.

--
Dieter Britz

db wrote:
> I use the double hyphen, was advised to do so many years ago, not sure
> why. Something to do with the length of the hyphen, I think.

I believe that's wrong in most cases. "--" is the typographic n-dash,
*not* a hyphen and is correct for the output. In bibtex's source the
ASCII hyphen/minus/dash is used and translated to the output by the
style. Please correct me, if wrong.

Here though you do not use a standard page range styles can deal with
but a pre-formatted output, so no translation applies and the n-dash has
to be given.

(In German we have "Gedankenstrich" and mathematical "Bis-Strich". Both
are longe than the hyphen "Bindestrich". There may be more correct
English terms than n-dash, that I'm not aware of.)

--
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/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

On 20/04/2023 08:15, db wrote:
> On 18.04.2023 23.53, Peter Flynn wrote:
[snip]>> But bibtex is being replaced by biblatex, which is heavily
>> supported and written in LaTeX code, so there are *lots* of people
>> able to help and support.
>
> I don't know biblatex, maybe I should.

It seems to be the future. Another big advantage: it handles Unicode, so
no more messing with \"{a} for ä.

> But there must still be style
> files for the form of the citation?

Lots, but they're written in LaTeX, not a specialist language.

> The page = bla bla is a fix suggested by someone here a couple of
> years ago, but it's a bit klutzy and a new entry like article = or
> articlenumber = would be better, I reckon.
Elsevier says:

>> Regardless of reference style, always include the article number
>> where the page number (or page range) would otherwise go.

I no longer cite anything published by Elsevier, and I see no valid
reason for adding to their hegemony by using their article number
instead of the DOI. However, if you are compelled by other forces to do
so, the biblatex manual recommends (p.19)

>> eid field (literal) The electronic identifier of an @article.
>> This field may replace the pages field for journals deviating
>> from the classic pagination scheme of printed journals by only
>> enumerating articles or papers and not pages.

So eid = {number} seems to be the way. But if you have a page reference
(eg from a paper copy of the journal) then it's probably good to give
that as well.

Peter

On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 9:43:40 AM UTC+12, Peter Flynn wrote:
> On 20/04/2023 08:15, db wrote:
> > On 18.04.2023 23.53, Peter Flynn wrote:
> [snip]>> But bibtex is being replaced by biblatex, which is heavily
> >> supported and written in LaTeX code, so there are *lots* of people
> >> able to help and support.
> >
> > I don't know biblatex, maybe I should.
> It seems to be the future. Another big advantage: it handles Unicode, so
> no more messing with \"{a} for ä.
> > But there must still be style
> > files for the form of the citation?
> Lots, but they're written in LaTeX, not a specialist language.
> > The page = bla bla is a fix suggested by someone here a couple of
> > years ago, but it's a bit klutzy and a new entry like article = or
> > articlenumber = would be better, I reckon.
> Elsevier says:
>
> >> Regardless of reference style, always include the article number
> >> where the page number (or page range) would otherwise go.
>
> I no longer cite anything published by Elsevier, and I see no valid
> reason for adding to their hegemony by using their article number
> instead of the DOI. However, if you are compelled by other forces to do
> so, the biblatex manual recommends (p.19)
>
> >> eid field (literal) The electronic identifier of an @article.
> >> This field may replace the pages field for journals deviating
> >> from the classic pagination scheme of printed journals by only
> >> enumerating articles or papers and not pages.
>
> So eid = {number} seems to be the way. But if you have a page reference
> (eg from a paper copy of the journal) then it's probably good to give
> that as well.
>
> Peter

I like revealing how many pages an article occupies even if its publisher thinks that's not important. Elsevier is not the only culprit. My .bib file has a lot of things like
note = {(14 pp)}
for use with BibTeX but I'm thinking of changing to things like
pages = {666:1--14}

Peter Flynn wrote:
> I see no valid reason for adding to their hegemony

I agree to the principle, but it's not for me to choose. And in this
worldd of publish or perish authors can't afford to be picky either. But
it's beside the point anyway, article numbers are no longer used by
Elsevier alone if they ever were, PONE and some journals from the nature
group come to mind first, there are more.

--
/¯\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Straße 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
 X in | D-50829 Köln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

On 21/04/2023 06:44, Axel Berger wrote:
> Peter Flynn wrote:
>> I see no valid reason for adding to their hegemony
>
> I agree to the principle, but it's not for me to choose. And in this
> worldd of publish or perish authors can't afford to be picky either. But
> it's beside the point anyway, article numbers are no longer used by
> Elsevier alone if they ever were, PONE and some journals from the nature
> group come to mind first, there are more.

Agreed, but I see no merit in polluting the page datum when the eid
field exists. If you're stuck using bibtex, though, you get no choice.

Peter