with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>> wrote:

*SKIP*
>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI

Your request can't be fullfilled. See below.

> OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set up
> a RAID6 array.

I'm aware of existance of this technology(TM). However, it doesn't have
any value *for me*. Thus, I'm not wasting time for leisure purposes.

> Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird params you could
> literally spend and hour researching. I did this about a year ago on a
> Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky setting after funky setting
> and you're never quite sure if you got it all right.

Because of above mentioned lack of value, I can't judge personaly what
that means. But, I see, it's impressive. At least for you.

However, it should be mentioned, somehow I doubt it would impress me.

> Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows all
> the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows (and
> will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might want to
> pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes adjustments
> if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the button. All over
> in literally five minutes.

And now I have an epiphany to regurgitate, thank you very much. Here it
comes.

Gui-people and termianl-people (it's not exactly like this, but it's
clearest separation I can make on spot; config-people?) are two
distinct tribes (or religions, if I may).

Terminal-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
reasons). But environment they've got isn't perfect. What leads to
correcting configs, looking and asking for (and eventual reading)
documentation, digging up configs and tools, and then accepting
marginally satisfing state of one component of The Perfect Environment.
Then something changes deep inside and all that house of cards falls
apart. However it should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal
utility are produced.

Gui-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
reasons). But environment they stumble at at first isn't perfect. What
leads to checking buttons, fiddling with gauges, looking and asking for
opinions, and digging up alternative environments. Then one day comes
realization that this one isn't The Perfect Environment anymore (because
it's too lively (and goes weird) or dies). Time has come to declare
something else The Perfect Environment (at least for now). However it
should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal utility are selected
and otherwise exposed (to terminal-people).

Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
been realized yet).

*CUT*

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On 26/11/2021 09:02, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).

When I drive a manual, I double de clutch and learn to heel and toe. And
use the clutch for inching when parking.

When I drive an auto, I learn to left foot brake to foll the box into
downshifts. And use the brake for inching when parking.

Does anyone actually care?
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 11/26/21 4:02 AM, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
>> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>>> wrote:
>
> *SKIP*
>>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
>
> Your request can't be fullfilled. See below.
>
>> OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set up
>> a RAID6 array.
>
> I'm aware of existance of this technology(TM). However, it doesn't have
> any value *for me*. Thus, I'm not wasting time for leisure purposes.
>
>> Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird params you could
>> literally spend and hour researching. I did this about a year ago on a
>> Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky setting after funky setting
>> and you're never quite sure if you got it all right.
>
> Because of above mentioned lack of value, I can't judge personaly what
> that means. But, I see, it's impressive. At least for you.
>
> However, it should be mentioned, somehow I doubt it would impress me.
>
>> Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows all
>> the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows (and
>> will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might want to
>> pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes adjustments
>> if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the button. All over
>> in literally five minutes.
>
> And now I have an epiphany to regurgitate, thank you very much. Here it
> comes.
>
> Gui-people and termianl-people (it's not exactly like this, but it's
> clearest separation I can make on spot; config-people?) are two
> distinct tribes (or religions, if I may).

I'm an atheist here ... each approach is good for what
it's good for. Sometimes CL is indicated, sometimes a
GUI is a lot faster/better.

'C' has its place, Python has its place. BASH scripts
have their place. Sometimes FORTRAN has its place. I
often use FP/Lazarus for GUI apps because GTK/QT are
just awful. I've converted Python apps to BASH and
vice-versa because of need or sheer simplicity.

In short, it's better to be utilitarian rather than
'religious' in this sphere.

Some of the older crowd (which technically includes me)
are "Command-Line Forever" and claim you're supposed to
suffer that approach for, well, for SOME reason. The
young GUI crowd will diss them - but often have NO idea
what to do if the GUI can't quite do it for them. Alas
I sometimes suspect that the CL-Forever group sticks
with that for job security ... 10 hours of magic incantations
rather than 10 minutes worth of GUI almost anybody can
understand - until their pointy-haired bosses catch on and
fire their asses for wasting time ..........

Now the DEEP people - those who work on kernals and such -
the ones who produce those 25 options for CL commands -
I give them the greatest respect. They don't Google
the answers, Google taps THEM for the answers. It's a
whole other level of understanding, the nuts and bolts.

> Terminal-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
> reasons). But environment they've got isn't perfect. What leads to
> correcting configs, looking and asking for (and eventual reading)
> documentation, digging up configs and tools, and then accepting
> marginally satisfing state of one component of The Perfect Environment.
> Then something changes deep inside and all that house of cards falls
> apart. However it should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal
> utility are produced.
>
> Gui-people are looking for The Perfect Environment (for unspecified
> reasons). But environment they stumble at at first isn't perfect. What
> leads to checking buttons, fiddling with gauges, looking and asking for
> opinions, and digging up alternative environments. Then one day comes
> realization that this one isn't The Perfect Environment anymore (because
> it's too lively (and goes weird) or dies). Time has come to declare
> something else The Perfect Environment (at least for now). However it
> should be mentioned, sometimes tools of marginal utility are selected
> and otherwise exposed (to terminal-people).
>
> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).
>
> *CUT*
>

Le 21-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>
> OK ... look up ALL the steps you have to take - on the CL - to set
> up a RAID6 array. Lots and lots of LONG fiddly commands with weird
> params you could literally spend and hour researching. I did this
> about a year ago on a Centos box. Steps, steps, steps - funky
> setting after funky setting and you're never quite sure if you
> got it all right.

Don't write "you", write "I". Because the fact you are not confident
with the command line doesn't imply I am not confident.

> Now - fire up OpenSUSE and set one up with the YAST2 GUI. It knows
> all the files that need to be tweaked and does it for you, it knows
> (and will TELL you) about the various options and if/why you might
> want to pick set X over set Y. It knows what disks you have, makes
> adjustments if they's not QUITE the same size. Then you click the
> button. All over in literally five minutes.
>
> I would say that's a very good example of how a GUI can pull lots
> of various bits together in an easy-to-understand/use fashion.

It's a good example of something you don't know. So the GUI gave you a
way to do something you wouldn't be able to do without understanding
what you do. It's OK, you are right to do some things the easy way.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 26-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
> with <vZqdnXVFfOGpGQf8nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> 166p1 wrote:
>> On 11/21/21 4:04 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 20-11-2021, Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> a écrit :
>>>> with <slrnsphf1t.1ap.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain> Stéphane CARPENTIER
>>>> wrote:
>
> *SKIP*
>>> I want an example, not a philosophical discussion between GUI and CLI
>
> Your request can't be fullfilled. See below.

Yes, I realise it.

> Shortly, when distinction is religious in nature, no amount (or value)
> of arguments could possibly swing opponent or impress undecided (there's
> no such thing as "undecided", decision has been made already it hasn't
> been realized yet).

It's not religious, I have nothing against the GUI, I'm using one
myself. But I was looking for example of things really faster on GUI
than on CLI. Which mean someone who is confident in both ways can provide
me an example of something really more effective on the GUI. But all I
have are people who don't know the CLI and so have to fall back on the
GUI because that's the only way for them to achieve their purpose. There
is nothing wrong with it for me. It's just I won't find a real example.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 27-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>
> I'm an atheist here ... each approach is good for what
> it's good for. Sometimes CL is indicated, sometimes a
> GUI is a lot faster/better.

It was your first claim, I asked you for an example, but all I get was
to use the GUI when you don't master the CLI. It's a good reason to fall
back on the GUI, but that's all.

> Some of the older crowd (which technically includes me)
> are "Command-Line Forever"

I don't believe it.

> and claim you're supposed to suffer that approach for,

There are nothing to suffer. There are things to learn. And once
learned, it's more efficient. It's not the same thing.

> I sometimes suspect that the CL-Forever group sticks
> with that for job security ... 10 hours of magic incantations
> rather than 10 minutes worth of GUI almost anybody can
> understand - until their pointy-haired bosses catch on and
> fire their asses for wasting time ..........

That's nonsense. You where unable to provide me an example which could
be accomplished in minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
CLI. All you were able to provide is an example in which you are not
confident with a CLI. What took you minutes with a GUI and who would
take you hours with a CLI would take seconds for someone who masters the
CLI.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
> CLI.
well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them
to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern
match, that find or grep etc would be able to match

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Le 22-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
> On 11/21/21 11:45 AM, Eric Pozharski wrote:
>>
>> And rightfully so. Unfortunately, GUI-people don't keep up with this
>> discussion.
>
> I provided a good example of where a GUI can
> cut hours off of a CL task.

No you provided a good example of what would take *you* hours and let
you believe it would take *anyone* hours. But it's wrong. It would take
minutes for the first time and seconds the other times, because it would
be scripted, for someone who manage the CLI.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 27-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
>> CLI.
> well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them
> to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern
> match, that find or grep etc would be able to match

OK, that can be faster, but it would not request hours. With the
autocomplete key it's fast to choose the files you want on the command
line.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 27/11/2021 10:07, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 27-11-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> On 27/11/2021 09:33, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> minutes with a GUI and who would require hours with a
>>> CLI.
>> well one thing is the ability to select a subset of files and move them
>> to a new directory or delete them without there being an obvious pattern
>> match, that find or grep etc would be able to match
>
> OK, that can be faster, but it would not request hours. With the
> autocomplete key it's fast to choose the files you want on the command
> line.
>
No, it isn't. At the leasts it's highly convenient to have two console
windows one displaying the list of what is there and another to perform
commands in.
In fact I switch fairly seamlessly between GUI and console for many
tasks - GUI is much faster to find files, but editing, as root, needs a
root console or it gets complicated with continuous need to enter sudo
passwords etc.
There is no 'best' - its all dependent on circumstances extant at the time.
I am glad I am fluent in both.

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 11/12/21 00:16, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:42:36 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>> On 11/10/21 17:46, 166p1 wrote:
>>> On 11/10/21 12:38 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>   Unfortunately, still a fairly common - and vexing -
>>>   problem. Lots of reasons it can happen, and again
>>>   it takes a certain amount of give and take to
>>>   hopefully find a solution beyond "wipe the install
>>>   and start over" (the MS favorite "solution" - great
>>>   if you've got nothing but built-in MS software in
>>>   there ...).
>>>   I had a similar annoying issue recently on an MX
>>>   with LXDE and XFCE in there - the screen brightness
>>>   would go very dark partway through boot and none
>>>   of the GUI controls would "stick". Finally had to
>>>   kind of brute-force it by re-writing an obscure
>>>   lowish-level config file every time during boot,
>>>   replacing the defective default being set
>>>   *somewhere*.
>>>   The underlying system is still fairly simple, but
>>>   the GUI stuff is huge now, convoluted, lots of
>>>   interactions.
>>
>> Yes but without the GUI er, Desktop Environment people
>> such as myself would have to really work hard to learn to use
>> Linux. I am 84.25 yoa and not really capable of that effort
>> except on a piece-meal solve a particular problem.
>
> In my opinion that does not depend on age but prior computer experience.
>
> OK, I was in my 30s when I was "forced" to start on the bare command line
> in Linux due to hardware constrains (400 MB free on my "massive 1300 MB
> (that is MEGA folks, not GIGA) hard disk after the Windows 95
> installation). Today I am happy about that I had to deal with the
> Linux-command line right from the start.
>
And I was in my 40s when I bought my Commodore 64 a few years older for
the Commodore 64/128. On the first I learned to do formatting
codes for the text I was writing in Paper Clip. On the 128 I learned
about CPM and got addicted to roguelike adventure games. I learned
about GEOS which was too slow even from the 512 KB ram disk. Then I
got an Amiga 1000 used and added a expansion box and got a hard disk.
On the Amiga my ourput increased due to the GUI and I learned enough
about CLI on the Amiga to format diskettes and copy Disks of the Month
for the A/CWest UGs doing them 4 at a time.
In about 2005 I got my first laptop which came with XP and which
was usable but very slow so I moved on to Mandriva with which i was able
to set up KDE to resemble an Amiga Workbench and use Dolphin as an
addictional two panel File Manager which as SID 1.3 and 2.0 I had
learned to use on the Amiga. I also used Midnight Commander to explore
the file tree Now 18 years later I am using PCLinuxOS to do my
computing, I do a column for a mid-West UG and try to maintain a
library for the SF-LUG. Sadly when I was still in my 40s I had and
infection that resulted in refractory Post Virual Fatigue syndrome with
the associated Brain Fog. So when I say learning all the the Terminal
commands that might be useful to me I am not kidding. I got it when
i was moving he Amiga from Dialup BBSes to the internet and could not
begin to understand the configuration file on the IP/TP Stack. I had
to buy a copy of Miami with a Gui configuration. If I overexercise
like walking twice around a block I suffer Brain Fog to some extent.
I have given up Roguelike games because I have better(?) things to
do with my time. Also when BF is strong I cannot remember to keep
my characters alive.
So GUI very useful for someone in my condition but also
use a few simple CLI commands to help me administer my machines.
[bliss *.* ~]$ uname -a
Linux 5.15.5-pclos1 #1 SMP Thu Nov 25 12:40:07 CST 2021 x86_64 x86_64
x86_64 GNU/Linux

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com