On 1/12/2024 10:38 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/12/24 17:22, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/12/2024 8:58 AM, acm@muc.de wrote:
>>> olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1/12/2024 6:23 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>> On 1/12/24 16:08, immibis wrote:
>>>>>> I found some of Olcott's papers, notably this one:
>>>>>> https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCDAD-2.pdf
>>>>>> where he says that "true" means "provable" and "false" means "the
>>>>>> inverse is provable".
>>>
>>>>>> Olcott apparently rejects the fact "P(I) halts or P(I) doesn't halt"
>>>>>> and claim there are some programs which don't halt and don't not
>>>>>> halt.
>>>
>>>>> olcott doesn't even understand what 'halt' means (I tried, he did not
>>>>> answer). Not only this one, he gets lots of basic meaning of terms
>>>>> wrong
>>>>> or defined in his way (actually not really defined, because his
>>>>> definition can change depending on situation, he does not understand
>>>>> 'define' neither).
>>>
>>>>> So, be careful, nothing he says means what is usually meant.
>>>
>>>
>>>> computation that halts… “the Turing machine will halt whenever it
>>>> enters
>>>> a final state” (Linz:1990:234)
>>>
>>>> Halting means reaching a final state and terminating normally.
>>>
>>> No, it means reaching a final state.  Being aborted is such a final
>>> state.
>>
>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>> 02 {
>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>> 07 }
>>
>> Unless D correctly simulated by H can possibly reach its
>> own line 06 (final state) it never halts.
>>
>
> it can because H can return 0

You must not be very good at software engineering if
you believe that D correctly simulated by H can return
any value to the simulated D.

What programming languages are you an expert of?
If the answer is {none} that explains your confusion.

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

On 1/12/24 1:53 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/12/2024 10:38 AM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/12/24 17:22, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/12/2024 8:58 AM, acm@muc.de wrote:
>>>> olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/12/2024 6:23 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/12/24 16:08, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>> I found some of Olcott's papers, notably this one:
>>>>>>> https://philpapers.org/archive/OLCDAD-2.pdf
>>>>>>> where he says that "true" means "provable" and "false" means "the
>>>>>>> inverse is provable".
>>>>
>>>>>>> Olcott apparently rejects the fact "P(I) halts or P(I) doesn't halt"
>>>>>>> and claim there are some programs which don't halt and don't not
>>>>>>> halt.
>>>>
>>>>>> olcott doesn't even understand what 'halt' means (I tried, he did not
>>>>>> answer). Not only this one, he gets lots of basic meaning of terms
>>>>>> wrong
>>>>>> or defined in his way (actually not really defined, because his
>>>>>> definition can change depending on situation, he does not understand
>>>>>> 'define' neither).
>>>>
>>>>>> So, be careful, nothing he says means what is usually meant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> computation that halts… “the Turing machine will halt whenever it
>>>>> enters
>>>>> a final state” (Linz:1990:234)
>>>>
>>>>> Halting means reaching a final state and terminating normally.
>>>>
>>>> No, it means reaching a final state.  Being aborted is such a final
>>>> state.
>>>
>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>> 02 {
>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>> 07 }
>>>
>>> Unless D correctly simulated by H can possibly reach its
>>> own line 06 (final state) it never halts.
>>>
>>
>> it can because H can return 0
>
> You must not be very good at software engineering if
> you believe that D correctly simulated by H can return
> any value to the simulated D.
>
> What programming languages are you an expert of?
> If the answer is {none} that explains your confusion.
>

And you have failed at your software endineering if you think that an H
that DOES correctly simulate this input can ever answer the question and
be a correct decider.

An H can only answer based on a correct simulation if it isn't the H
that D was built on, since your assumption was that the H that D was
built on doesn't abort its simulaition.

You seem to forget the fundamental nature of programs that they do what
they are programmed to do, and don't have free-will to actually make a
free determination of what they will do.

On 1/12/24 19:53, olcott wrote:
> On 1/12/2024 10:38 AM, immibis wrote:
>>
>> it can because H can return 0
>
> You must not be very good at software engineering if
> you believe that D correctly simulated by H can return
> any value to the simulated D.

You must not be very good at software engineering if you think a correct
simulation can behave differently from a direct execution.

On 1/13/2024 6:10 AM, immibis wrote:
> On 1/12/24 19:53, olcott wrote:
>> On 1/12/2024 10:38 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>
>>> it can because H can return 0
>>
>> You must not be very good at software engineering if
>> you believe that D correctly simulated by H can return
>> any value to the simulated D.
>
> You must not be very good at software engineering if you think a correct
> simulation can behave differently from a direct execution.

01 int D(ptr x) // ptr is pointer to int function
02 {
03 int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
04 if (Halt_Status)
05 HERE: goto HERE;
06 return Halt_Status;
07 }

It is an easily verified fact the D correctly simulated by H
cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and terminate normally.

*NO AMOUNT OF BLUSTER OR DISHONEST DODGE CAN POSSIBLY AVOID THIS*

--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

On 1/13/24 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 1/13/2024 6:10 AM, immibis wrote:
>> On 1/12/24 19:53, olcott wrote:
>>> On 1/12/2024 10:38 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> it can because H can return 0
>>>
>>> You must not be very good at software engineering if
>>> you believe that D correctly simulated by H can return
>>> any value to the simulated D.
>>
>> You must not be very good at software engineering if you think a
>> correct simulation can behave differently from a direct execution.
>
> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
> 02 {
> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
> 04   if (Halt_Status)
> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
> 06   return Halt_Status;
> 07 }
>
> It is an easily verified fact the D correctly simulated by H
> cannot possibly reach its own line 06 and terminate normally.
>
> *NO AMOUNT OF BLUSTER OR DISHONEST DODGE CAN POSSIBLY AVOID THIS*
>

It is an easily verified fact that no H that actually correctly
simulates its input D ever answers.

So, H isn't a decider.

The H that answers, didn't do a correct simulation of its exact input,
and thus fails to be your H and your whole world just blew itself up.