Why ISO was retired — Barry Kauler (the Puppy Linux creator)

https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired.html

https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired-part-2.html

Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 15:43:46 Uhr schrieb Andrei Z.:

> Why ISO was retired — Barry Kauler (the Puppy Linux creator)
>
> https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired.html
>
> https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired-part-2.html
>

Thanks. A very interesting and informative article.

Andrei Z. <no-email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Why ISO was retired -- Barry Kauler (the Puppy Linux creator)
>
> https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired.html
>
> https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired-part-2.html

Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
drive.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
Kev:

> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> drive.

Is is really cheaper?
I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned DVD
is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating systems
have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful anymore and
produces a huge amount of waste.

On 16.12.2021 at 19:52, Marco Moock scribbled:

> Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
> Kev:
>
> > Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> > without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> > drive.
>
> Is is really cheaper?
> I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
> supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned
> DVD is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating
> systems have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful
> anymore and produces a huge amount of waste.

That's why Gandalf invented CD-rw/DVD-rw/DVD+rw, Preciousss. :p

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

On 16/12/2021 18:52, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
> Kev:
>
>> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>> drive.
>
> Is is really cheaper?
> I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
> supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned DVD
> is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating systems
> have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful anymore and
> produces a huge amount of waste.
>
well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2021, um 19:35:11 Uhr schrieb The Natural
Philosopher:

> well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?
I really bothers me if I need to buy DVDs and wasting them after 6
months if Ubuntu STS is outdated. I use USB disks that are 10+ years.
Much cheaper and more comfortable. For older computers that can't boot
up from USB I have a super grub 2 CD. With that I boot from the USB
disk.

At Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:52:46 +0100 Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote:

>
> Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
> Kev:
>
> > Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> > without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> > drive.
>
> Is is really cheaper?
> I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
> supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned DVD
> is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating systems
> have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful anymore and
> produces a huge amount of waste.

It is a matter of penny wise and pound foolish -- one blank optical disk might
be less than a $1, but it is single use. A $10 USB drive can be used over and
over again (way more then 10 times). Mayby a higher capital cost, but
reusable. OTOH, for one-time long term storage (or really medium term
storage), than an optical disk might be cheaper -- but cloud storage might be
cheaper still.

>
>
>

--
Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> At Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:52:46 +0100 Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote:
>> Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
>> Kev:
>> > Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>> > without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>> > drive.
>>
>> Is is really cheaper?
>> I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
>> supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned DVD
>> is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating systems
>> have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful anymore and
>> produces a huge amount of waste.
>
> It is a matter of penny wise and pound foolish -- one blank optical disk might
> be less than a $1, but it is single use. A $10 USB drive can be used over and
> over again (way more then 10 times). Mayby a higher capital cost, but
> reusable.

For the $15-$20 which tends to be the minimum USB drive price here
in Australia unless you buy from a dodgy Ebay type or watch out for
a once-a-year special (I tried the Chinese Ebay seller type once and
the stick stopped being readable after the first attempted write,
so that's not a reliable option so far as I'm concerned), I bought a
pack of 110 no-name (litterally, they're just shiny on both sides)
CD-ROMs from a discount store many years ago and have been slowly
working through them since.

Yes, I could have just bought _one_ USB flash drive, but the
inconvenience of having to write an image to it every time I wanted
to boot a different distro means that buying at least five would be
the only way to really get close to the convenience of my current
system.

I don't deny that this is my personal usage though. There are also
cases where new versions have issues (eg. no 32-bit support in new
System Rescue CD releases) which means I keep using the old version
as well as the new - that would be an extra $15-$20 cost each time
it happened if I went with USB drives. Some people might not care
about 32-bit, only ever boot one OS/distro, and insist on it being
the very latest version (the article author may be a prime example,
presumably liking to always boot his own distro), for them there
would be no advantage to CDs/DVDs. ISO caters to both of us,
whereas disk image files just cater to those others, though I agree
that the simplicity of an image file would be otherwise desireable.

That said, I keep all the CD/DVD images archived in the excess
capacity of one of my data-backup USB HDDs to avoid (slow/costly
for me) repeat downloads. Maybe I should use that Ventoy tool so I
could boot from the USB HDD instead? Except that I don't want to
mess about with my backup drive excessively, and buying another one
costs much more than a discount CD stack. There are lots of
options, but CDs just work for me at the moment.

Actually the gist of this is really that discount junk shops in
Australia sometimes sell bulk CD/DVD packs, but never USB drives. :)

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 12/16/21 12:12, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:52:46 +0100 Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 15. Dezember 2021, um 21:38:13 Uhr schrieb Computer Nerd
>> Kev:
>>
>>> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>>> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>>> drive.
>>
>> Is is really cheaper?
>> I don't think so. I can buy a USB drive for about 10 $ in any
>> supermarket and I can use that for many purposes. A one-time burned DVD
>> is only usable for a short time for me (most Linux operating systems
>> have semi-annual/annual releases) and then it is not useful anymore and
>> produces a huge amount of waste.
>
> It is a matter of penny wise and pound foolish -- one blank optical
disk might
> be less than a $1, but it is single use. A $10 USB drive can be used
over and
> over again (way more then 10 times). Mayby a higher capital cost, but
> reusable. OTOH, for one-time long term storage (or really medium term
> storage), than an optical disk might be cheaper -- but cloud storage
might be
> cheaper still.

I used to buy DVD R/W disks and used them several times, I
switched to using Flash Drives because that was the desire of the
active LUG members, When we have in person meetings againg I will
probably not be there as I since I turned 84 I find myself less
capable of the required exertions.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Am 16.12.21 um 20:48 schrieb Marco Moock:
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2021, um 19:35:11 Uhr schrieb The Natural
> Philosopher:
>
>> well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?
> I really bothers me if I need to buy DVDs and wasting them after 6
> months if Ubuntu STS is outdated. I use USB disks that are 10+ years.
> Much cheaper and more comfortable. For older computers that can't boot
> up from USB I have a super grub 2 CD. With that I boot from the USB
> disk.

The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
for more.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 16.12.21 um 21:12 schrieb Robert Heller:
> It is a matter of penny wise and pound foolish -- one blank optical disk might
> be less than a $1, but it is single use.

Obviously you are not familiar with the -rw-Versions.
They can be used a couple of times.

But optical mass-storage medias are over for more than 10 years. Too
small and too slow.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 16/12/2021 19:48, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2021, um 19:35:11 Uhr schrieb The Natural
> Philosopher:
>
>> well at a few cents a piece of plastic who is really that bothered?
> I really bothers me if I need to buy DVDs

I was given a pack of 100 some years ago. Their ONLY use is in
installing Linux these days.

> and wasting them after 6
> months if Ubuntu STS is outdated.

How many do you want?

> I use USB disks that are 10+ years.

And cost far more than a pack of 100 DVDRWs...

less that $25 US at the time of typing...

> Much cheaper and more comfortable. For older computers that can't boot
> up from USB I have a super grub 2 CD. With that I boot from the USB
> disk.
>
When all you have is a hammer...

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> writes:

> It is a matter of penny wise and pound foolish -- one blank optical disk might
> be less than a $1, but it is single use.

Well, yes, but if you have a stack of DVD-Rs in the closet and they're
already paid for? Other benefit is that you can use a marker on the disk
and it'll match the contents for perpetuity.

> A $10 USB drive can be used over and over again (way more then 10
> times).

Downside with that is that the USB sticks accumulate stuff on them, for
me at least. I have a bunch in the drawer. Some I've labeled so I know
what's on there but most are unlabeled... Plug in, look what's on it,
does it matter, is the same data somewhere else or can I just overwrite?
Of course, if it is a labeled stick then I have to make a new label too.
Kinda had the same issue with rewritable opticals too.

Still, not using DVDs for much anything any more since they are slow and
bulky. Live Linux on USB has the possible benefit of persistence too. I
don't know if that works with rewritable opticals, I remember in the
decade before last Windows 7's support for using a DVD+RW like a big
floppy disk was handy. Very slow but handy nevertheless. In my office
back then I could always grab a DVD+RW from the office supply closet but
there were no USB sticks.

In fact, I think I'll leave my old Plextor out when I get a new case
since I have my mind set on something like Fractal Design's Define 7.

On 16/12/2021 22.35, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Yes, I could have just bought_one_ USB flash drive, but the
> inconvenience of having to write an image to it every time I wanted
> to boot a different distro means that buying at least five would be
> the only way to really get close to the convenience of my current
> system.

on openSUSE, the image is often read-write if put on an USB. This is
useful for a live, being able to write files, even to add packages to
it. Can't be done on CD :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
> for more.

Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with cheap usb drives that
had less capacity or speed than they were supposed to have, I've never encountered
problems with them. I still have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb
drive that I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still works
fine.

I've only switched to newer usb drives as that one is only usb2, and the newer
usb3 drives are much faster.

I'm a heavy smoker. Optical drives don't last long before they start producing
read/write errors, whether using RO or RW discs. I've stopped replacing the drives
and use usb sticks only.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

>
> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> drive.
>

The point of the articles is to argue against the use of the
ISO format to distribute bootable OS installations. Nothing
more.

It seems that many here interpret the articles as an argument
against iso9660 in general, but that's not true.

I use hybrid iso/udf filesystems (since iso9664 is limited
to 4.7 G) to store 25-50 G of data on Blu-Ray disks. Given
that all Blu-Ray drives are made to read/burn any optical
media back to lowly and limited CDs the death of ISO has
been greatly exagerated.

The argument is still about optical longevity. I just
pulled some 13-yo DVDs off the shelf and they could be
read without any glitch. They'll doubtless last another
13 years. The Taiyo-Yuden brand and M-Disc

Optical DVD-RAM disks can support Linux ext3 filesystems
but these are a truly vanishing breed. I still have many
left that are full of data.

Aside: the second article shows several images of the hoakiest
looking windows and icons that I have ever beheld. Is this
an actual GNU/Linux system? I would hope not because such
visual garbage would be certain to repel any user.

On 12/17/21 11:23, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
>> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
>> for more.
>
> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with cheap
> usb drives that
> had less capacity or speed than they were supposed to have, I've never
> encountered
> problems with them. I still have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology
> DT101 G2 usb
> drive that I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it
> still works
> fine.
>
> I've only switched to newer usb drives as that one is only usb2, and the
> newer
> usb3 drives are much faster.
>
> I'm a heavy smoker. Optical drives don't last long before they start
> producing
> read/write errors, whether using RO or RW discs. I've stopped replacing
> the drives
> and use usb sticks only.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins

It may be the smoking that cuts down on the life of your optical drives.

bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 12/17/21 11:28, Diego Garcia wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>>
>> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>> drive.
>>
>
> The point of the articles is to argue against the use of the
> ISO format to distribute bootable OS installations. Nothing
> more.
>
> It seems that many here interpret the articles as an argument
> against iso9660 in general, but that's not true.
>
> I use hybrid iso/udf filesystems (since iso9664 is limited
> to 4.7 G) to store 25-50 G of data on Blu-Ray disks. Given
> that all Blu-Ray drives are made to read/burn any optical
> media back to lowly and limited CDs the death of ISO has
> been greatly exagerated.
>
> The argument is still about optical longevity. I just
> pulled some 13-yo DVDs off the shelf and they could be
> read without any glitch. They'll doubtless last another
> 13 years. The Taiyo-Yuden brand and M-Disc
>
> Optical DVD-RAM disks can support Linux ext3 filesystems
> but these are a truly vanishing breed. I still have many
> left that are full of data.
>
> Aside: the second article shows several images of the hoakiest
> looking windows and icons that I have ever beheld. Is this
> an actual GNU/Linux system? I would hope not because such
> visual garbage would be certain to repel any user.
>
>

That is Puppy Linux or maybe EasyOS. It works very well and
not everyone has the same tastes in Desktop Environments. I hate
Gnome and whatever the DE was for Canonical when they stopped using
Gmome and before they returned to Gnome.

I have never adopted Puppy but it resembles somewhat
the basic Amiga Workbench, I used a File Manager named SID 1.3
and 2.0 versions which was fully customizable to avoid using
the Amiga Workbench. Now on PCLinuxOS KDE 5 I use Dolphin
for nearly all of my work on the KDE and it is not as
adaptable as SID in either version but it works fine for
me.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:10:05 -0500, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> It may be the smoking that cuts down on the life of your optical drives.

Likely my own too. :-) I know it's the smoking. A drive typically lasts about 6
months for me before it has to be replaced. My non-smoking relatives and friends
do not have that problem.

Usb drives are not affected.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 17/12/2021 20.23, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:08:14 -0500, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> The reliablity of USB-sticks is unacceptable for serious use.
>> Chreap crap. For the one-time installation of an ISO-image ok, but not
>> for more.
>
> Despite the widespread problems that happened some time ago with
> cheap usb drives that had less capacity or speed than they were
> supposed to have, I've never encountered problems with them. I still
> have a 9 year old 16GB Kingston Technology DT101 G2 usb drive that
> I've overwritten with iso images close to 100 times, and it still
> works fine.

That is not that surprising. It is only 100 write operations.

But, for example, opening an office document directly on a stick wears
it more.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 17/12/2021 20.28, Diego Garcia wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>>
>> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
>> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
>> drive.
>>
>
> The point of the articles is to argue against the use of the
> ISO format to distribute bootable OS installations. Nothing
> more.

That's an interesting idea. I have read now the links, which I had
opened for reading when I had the chance, his proposal is curious.

What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

At Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:00:39 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> On 17/12/2021 20.28, Diego Garcia wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:38:13 +0000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Personally I still use CDs/DVDs because they're cheaper. PCs
> >> without a disc drive can still be connected to a USB CD/DVD
> >> drive.
> >>
> >
> > The point of the articles is to argue against the use of the
> > ISO format to distribute bootable OS installations. Nothing
> > more.
>
> That's an interesting idea. I have read now the links, which I had
> opened for reading when I had the chance, his proposal is curious.
>
> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?

All newer/modern servers generally have the same bare metal boot options as
desktop machines -- eg they have much the same boot firmware (BIOS or whatever
its called these days) as desktop machines.

OTOH, *virtual machines* often are installed from "virtual" optical disks,
which generally get "mapped" to ISO9660 image files.

>

--
Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 16/12/2021 22.35, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Yes, I could have just bought_one_ USB flash drive, but the
>> inconvenience of having to write an image to it every time I wanted
>> to boot a different distro means that buying at least five would be
>> the only way to really get close to the convenience of my current
>> system.
>
> on openSUSE, the image is often read-write if put on an USB. This is
> useful for a live, being able to write files, even to add packages to
> it. Can't be done on CD :-p

That's useful if you want to do actual work on the live-booted OS,
but personally I like to know that it's brought back to a
clean-slate condition on each reboot, and can't be messed up by
a driver installation or faulty hardware. For my usual purpose of
testing or data recovery, the read-only aspect is a prime
advantage. If I want to do real work then that's a different
matter and I'll install the OS properly.

Knowing that you can hit the power button at any time without
risking the boot media is very freeing when testing dodgy hardware
or experimenting with drivers. As is the ability to quickly switch
to trying another distro when one hangs during boot on a particular
machine - no waiting for a USB drive to be rewritten.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 2021-12-17 16:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> What about servers, do they prefer to install from CD or from usb?

Network booting is also an option when installing an operating system on
a server.