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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

SubjectAuthor
* move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
|+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
|| `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKdruck
||  +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||  |+- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKdruck
||  | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||  |  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKdruck
||  |   `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||  +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJohn-Paul Stewart
||  |`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||  `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKBob Latham
|+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKTheo
||`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|| +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|| |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|| | `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRichard Kettlewell
|| +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|| +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJohn-Paul Stewart
|| `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
||  `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.302
| `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|   `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|    +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|    `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJan Panteltje
|     +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |+- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |   +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |   |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |   | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |   |  +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJan Panteltje
|     |   |  |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |   |  | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|     |   |  |  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |   |  |   `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|     |   |  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |   |   +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|     |   |   |`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|     |   |   `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRobert Riches
|     |   `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|     `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|      +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJan Panteltje
|      `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|       +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|       +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|       `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |  +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        |  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        |   +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |   |+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|        |   ||`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        |   || `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|        |   ||  `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |   |+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|        |   ||`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|        |   |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|        |   | +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |   | |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|        |   | | `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|        |   | |  +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|        |   | |  `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|        |   | `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
|        |   `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKTauno Voipio
|        `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKJan Panteltje
|         `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
|          `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDennis Lee Bieber
|           `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK23k.304
+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRobert Heller
|+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRobert Heller
|||+* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKComputer Nerd Kev
||||`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
|||| `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||  `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKComputer Nerd Kev
||||   +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKCarlos E.R.
||||   |`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
||||   | `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||   `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||    `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRich
||||     `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRobert Heller
||||      `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||       `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKRobert Heller
||||        `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||         `* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDave
||||          +* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
||||          |`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||||          +- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDennis Lee Bieber
||||          `- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
|||+- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKAhem A Rivet's Shot
|||`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKThe Natural Philosopher
||`- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid W. Hodgins
|`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKPancho
+- Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKDavid Taylor
`* Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISKmm0fmf

Pages:123456789
Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

<uadus2$58da$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:05:21 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 16:05 UTC

On 01/08/2023 20:21, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 7/31/23 16:36, druck wrote:
>>
>> On Bullseye and later the largest amount of logging activity to disc is
>> bloody systemd's journald, which by default will grow /var/log/journal/*
>> to 2GB, taking up valuable space on SD cards and severely reducing their
>> write life.
>>
>> Two things you can do; first as fucking Peottering always knows best,
>> there is no way of turning off journald and just using the god given
>> rsyslog, but you can stop journald logging to disc and just keep it in
>> RAM instead by adding the following to /etc/systemd/journald.conf
>>
>> Storage=volatile
>> RuntimeMaxUse=32M
>> RuntimeMaxFileSize=32M
>> ForwardToConsole=no
>> ForwardToWall=no
>>
>> Secondly stop systemd spamming /var/log/syslog with all sorts of crap
>> you have no interest in. Create a file called
>> /etc/rsyslog.d/drop.systemd.conf containing
>>
>> # Drop messages from f***ing systemd
>> :programname,startswith,"systemd" stop
>
> Thanks for posting that!
>
> I'm not the OP, but I still found that info immensely useful for a
> totally different reason. And I'm probably not the only one who doesn't
> want to waste a day sifting through the systemd and journalctl docs to
> figure it out for myself.
>
Yup. excellent advice.

Now my /var/log isn't being used at all

oot@heating-controller:/var/ramlog# du -sh /var/log
92K /var/log
root@heating-controller:/var/ramlog# ls -l
total 21224
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21280021 Aug 2 16:42 access.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 119049 Aug 2 16:39 auth.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 88082 Aug 2 16:39 daemon.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 3119 Aug 1 11:05 debug
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 31171 Aug 2 15:39 error.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 31714 Aug 1 11:05 kern.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 30892 Aug 1 11:05 messages
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Aug 1 11:05 other_vhosts_access.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 133829 Aug 2 16:39 syslog

But ramlog is. My server instructs the browser to to do an ajax poll
every second

# ls -l /var/ramlog
total 21240
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21296720 Aug 2 16:45 access.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 119049 Aug 2 16:39 auth.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 88082 Aug 2 16:39 daemon.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 3119 Aug 1 11:05 debug
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 31171 Aug 2 15:39 error.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 31714 Aug 1 11:05 kern.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 30892 Aug 1 11:05 messages
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Aug 1 11:05 other_vhosts_access.log
-rw-r----- 1 root adm 133829 Aug 2 16:39 syslog

Next step is to turn off such verbose logging from apache...ah
simply comment out the line dictating access logs in the sites-enabled
location and no more access..log.
its getting there.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

<uadv2j$58da$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:08:51 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 16:08 UTC

On 01/08/2023 21:30, druck wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 11:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Where in RAM does it keep it, or is that only known the the Great
>> Poettering, who has provided some buggy tool to access it?
>
> It's stored in /run/log/journal (/run is tmpfs in RAM)
>
> Despite the configuration specifying a maximum journal size of 32M and
> even 512MB Pi's having a 64MB /run, if you do a df /run and see it at
> 100% it's down to bloody journald, and you have to use Peottering,s
> buggy tool to manually clear out the crap.
>
Its looking OK.
root@heating-controller:/run/log/journal# ls -la
total 0
drwxr-sr-x+ 3 root systemd-journal 60 Aug 1 11:05 .
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 60 Aug 1 11:05 ..
drwxr-s---+ 2 root systemd-journal 80 Aug 2 06:05
5804893eb1ba4979aa14b83e642e215c
root@heating-controller:/run/log/journal# du -sh *
6.3M 5804893eb1ba4979aa14b83e642e215c
root@heating-controller:/run/log/journal#

> journal --vacuum-files=1
>
>> successfuly got systemd journal to cease to exist on disk, and moved
>> nearly everything to a ram log.
>> As the man falling past the 13th floor yelled: 'so far. so good!'
>
> If you aiming for uptimes of 80+ days or more, then bung that command in
> a weekly or monthly cron job, as things can get a bit temperamental if
> /run is full.
>
I will bear that in mind
But power failures are relatively common here when the wind blows

> ---druck
>

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:09:46 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 16:09 UTC

On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
> On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
>> This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.
>>
>
> +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
> find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.
>
> TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
> tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year, or
> whatever.
>
This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough to
do that.

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:25:36 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 16:25 UTC

On 01/08/2023 23:56, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 21:48, druck wrote:
>> On 01/08/2023 08:08, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> Cron job reboots it every morning so I don't worry about ramdisk
>>> filling up.
>>>
>>> It's been running like this on the same SDCARD for 2+ years.
>>
> [snip]
>
>> My suggestion is to look at the logging levels of various processes,
>> and ensure everything has a suitable log rotate configuration, so the
>> size of your logging directory is kept pretty static over time without
>> having to reboot. Particularly as booting does lots of logging, and
>> once that is rotated out, the size may go down slightly.
>>
>
> I think you are right. I really should set it up better than it is. It's
> a classic "round tuit" problem as it works acceptably as is.  I suppose
> the problem with Pi's and the like is they feel disposable along with
> their SD Cards and once you have something working the urge to do the
> job properly wanes. And you can always just stick the backup SD Card in
> and reboot!
>
This pi will be running my central heating. It will be tucked away in a
boiler cupboard. The existing controller keeps crashing during power
cuts so I decided that with a $5000 heating bill, making a rock sold
controller to have different temperatures at different times might
easily save me $1000 a year (as well as allowing me to hit the
controller via the bedroom laptop and turn bathroom heaters on before I
get out of bed).

And by not continuously writing to the SD card with log files the chance
of a non booting unit is really rather small. In fact it is hardly
writing to the SD card AT ALL. now.

Its going slower than I hoped but i haven't met any major issues on the
controller - the Zero W.

The Pico Ws to measure temperature and oil tank levels may be more of a
challenge. But the existing Wireless oil tank gauge sucks - hasn't got
the range, but to my surprise, holding up the mobile next to the oil
tank showed two fairly weak, but potentially useable WiFi points in the
house.

WE shall see.Having a machine far more capable than a PDP/11 cost less
than £25 with the SD card, and less than £50 all in with power supply
relays and hopefully 3D printed box, is stunning for basic networked
process control

Looking forward to hacking the Picos in due course. Ive been working on
the simplest and cheapest electronics that will, if the Pi instructs it,
shut all power down to the Pi and draw at most a few microamps until a
capacitor charges up again, when it will restore power and reboot the
PICO..my existing oil tank monitor wakes up once an hour. For a second
or two. The battery lasts for years.

--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
Lines: 196
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 16:47 UTC

On 02/08/2023 05:41, 23k.304 wrote:
> On 7/31/23 5:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 31/07/2023 02:54, 23k.302 wrote:
>>> On 7/29/23 2:42 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>> On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
>>>>>> So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> find/var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> which reproduces/var/log/foo/bar/  to/tmp/var/log/foo/bar/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Theo
>>>>> Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
>>>>> mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is*immediately*
>>>>> populated and directories created, then all should work?
>>>> Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk won't
>>>> automatically start using it.  The process will still have the open
>>>> file
>>>> handle to the original, disk-based file instead.  So you'll either need
>>>> to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot sequence
>>>> to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll
>>>> need
>>>> to signal those daemons reopen their logs.  Most do that in response to
>>>> SIGHUP.  Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs, so
>>>> its
>>>> configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
>>>> mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.
>>>
>>>
>>>    Hmm ... MIGHT be able to make that work with minimal
>>>    pain using systemd. It has 'depends on','run after' and
>>>    such params. He could init the ramdisk REALLY early in a
>>>    quasi-structured/quasi-safe environment.
>>>
>>>    Not everyone likes systemd - but it DOES have its uses.
>>>
>>>    Another trick is to just make the ramdisk whenever and
>>>    then make /var/log into a symlink/mountpoint. Yes, there'd
>>>    be some early stuff still in the real /var/log, but maybe
>>>    that's not important for him.
>>>
>>>    However I'd rec ramdisks for where they're more useful.
>>>    I have an app that does a lot of image manipulation
>>>    before the results are shown via PHP/Apache on a Pi.
>>>    I don't want any of that to be reading/writing to the
>>>    SD card - too slow AND burns it out - but I did want
>>>    access to be "normal", like with any 'real' drive. A
>>>    small ramdisk was by far the best/easiest solution.
>>
>> I use them in this and my other pi-zero  context as fundamentally
>> simple interprocess communicators. So in my Hifi Project, a daemon
>> reads the icecast info off radio streams and writes it to a file in a
>> temporary file system.
>>
>> The web server then has access to that to let me know what misc is
>> being played, via ajax calls from the web servers radio interface.
>>
>> As long as only one process is writing them, this is a very simple and
>> effective way to transfer data from one daemon to another.
>
>   Agreed. If you CAN keep it simple, DO keep it simple.
>   Remember YOU might have to debug/enhance it a few
>   years LATER  :-)
>
Oh, I learnt my code writing contract assembler for people who wanted it
well commented enough that the stupidest permie could fix it years later.
Or myself. Sometimes I look at stuff I wrote and marvel at ait.

I am not a computer scientist. Elegance isn't in my nature. I am a
software and other sorts of engineer, and making it work, and keep on
working at the lowets possible prices is burned into my soul

"An engineer is someone who can do for five bob what any damned fool can
do for a quid"

>   Things like Pi's are special cases - not blazing fast,
>   not a lot of RAM, run off SD cards/eMMC that have to be
>   protected from re-write fatigue. If the need for space
>   isn't excessive, and simplicity is worthwhile (almost
>   always) then a RAMdisk is often your best solution.
>
Ha! compared with a Z80 with 48k of usable RAM or a 6809, they ARE
blazingly fast. I cut my teeth writing C and assembler for those, stuff
that was burned into ROM.
There is so much on this zero ROM - 16GB! And I have ram coming out of
my ears.

>   Because of the filesystem overhead, RAMdisks just MIGHT
>   not be fast enough ... then you have to go to "less simple"
>   approaches alas. To each app, its own.
>
My access requrements are measured in seconds, not micro seconds.

>> In the current project which involves driving 4 mains relays using a
>> daemon that collects various bits of information in order to decide
>> when to switch them on, it is used to store the relay state, so again
>> ajax calls from the web server can determine not what *should be on,
>> but what is *actually* on.
>
>   Cool stuff
>
>> I am sure the semaphores messages and pipes might have done the job,
>> but simply recreating  a file ion a ramdisk every few seconds works fine.
>
>   "Pipes" are a kind of cheat - really just "invisible" R/W files.
>   I used them kinda extensively on some forking servers I wrote a
>   couple of years ago in Python and 'C' to make data gathered by
>   new forks accessible to the mother process. They WORK just fine
>   and are commonly used and I *think* a tad faster than a RAMdisk,
>   but still ...
>
Oh there surely are faster, but who is in a hurry? a central heating
controller changes states every few HOURS. and if the users browser view
of that is a second behind, frankly who gives a damn?

Like wise room temperatures and tank oil levels are not things that
change much in an hour...

>   I'm fond of such 'servers' - even cobbled together a good
>   "pre-forked" one - supposedly the highest-capacity/speed -
>   for both TCP and UDP - but never had a good high-volume
>   reason to use them. The best was almost like a 'chat' app,
>   non-sync bi-directional where the queen server process could
>   initiate, even push, tasks and messages to the clients. Fun !
>
>   Hmm ... now apparently some possible servants of Xi here
>   are calling me a "troll" because I repeated a few things
>   (said by HS/NSA/CIA) they didn't WANT to hear about
>   CCP sabotage-ware infiltrating almost everything in
>   our important infrastructure/military systems and
>   'devices' (which are almost entirely Linux/Unix-based).
>   One day soon they ARE gonna get a big wake-up call ... but
>   meanwhile denial means they won't DO anything about it  :-)
>
The problem is that no one knows what is really happening, and although
the political narratives that are spun for consumption by hoi polloi,
are obviously not the real truth, no one knows what is. Not even the
spinners.

I myself know for example, that there couldn't have been any weapons of
mass destruction *directly threatening British interests* in Iraq, and
that our prime minister lied about that. I spent a couple of years
designing missile parts and know in principle where the bleeding edge
is, and it sure ain't in Iraq.

I know that Covid injections do not put goverment control chips in your
brain, They don't need to. They have the mass mediafor that :-)

I know the moon landings were real, because there wasn't the technology
then to fake it.

I know that 911 was a simple case of structural failure in a fire,
because everything about it is consistent with my knowledge of
structural engneering.

I dont know who apart from lee harvey oswald, might have shot JFK , or
why. |Jury still out.

I know that 'renewable' energy is a greater disaster than any climate
change, and I know that climate change is largely natural with very
little man made components. Because I did the years of research. And the
problem is within my pay garde as an engineer with a good STEM background

I don't know who runs the world banks, but I an fairly sure its not
Jews, or Lizards.
I am however sure that they haven't a clue what they are doing.

>   ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
>   Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
>   very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
>   then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
>   it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
>   vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
>   anyhow so ....


Click here to read the complete article
Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: wlfr...@ix.netcom.com (Dennis Lee Bieber)
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Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: Dennis Lee Bieber - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:08 UTC

On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:25:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:

>And by not continuously writing to the SD card with log files the chance
>of a non booting unit is really rather small. In fact it is hardly
>writing to the SD card AT ALL. now.
>
I wonder if studying the boot configuration files of a Pi-Star system
might not be of use. Pi-Star is a system for working with internet linked
digital Amateur radio nodes, using a low-power radio board on top.

By default, Pi-Star runs with the main (SD) drive set up in READ_ONLY.
All logging, etc., is in RAM.

pi-star@pi-star-3b(ro):~$ df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/root 15213412 1955360 12604368 14% /
devtmpfs 464768 0 464768 0% /dev
tmpfs 498048 0 498048 0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 32768 7632 25136 24% /run
tmpfs 5120 0 5120 0% /run/lock
tmpfs 32768 0 32768 0% /sys/fs/cgroup
tmpfs 65536 8 65528 1% /tmp
tmpfs 16 4 12 25% /var/lib/logrotate
tmpfs 32 16 16 50% /var/lib/dhcpcd5
tmpfs 65536 10740 54796 17% /var/log
tmpfs 64 0 64 0% /var/lib/php/sessions
tmpfs 16 0 16 0% /var/lib/sudo
tmpfs 1024 72 952 8% /var/cache/samba
tmpfs 4096 2176 1920 54% /var/lib/samba/private
tmpfs 1024 0 1024 0% /var/lib/nginx/body
/dev/mmcblk0p1 64456 51112 13344 80% /boot
tmpfs 99608 0 99608 0% /run/user/1000
pi-star@pi-star-3b(ro):~$

Biggest problem is that it is a few OS versions (Debian) behind.

>
>WE shall see.Having a machine far more capable than a PDP/11 cost less
>than £25 with the SD card, and less than £50 all in with power supply
>relays and hopefully 3D printed box, is stunning for basic networked
>process control
>

Heck -- some years ago there were instructions on how to set up two
R-Pi as a VAXCluster (back when the hobby version of OpenVMS was a free
package). Unfortunately, that is now a 404 page.

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: new...@druck.org.uk (druck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: druck - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:15 UTC

On 02/08/2023 17:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 21:30, druck wrote:
>> If you aiming for uptimes of 80+ days or more, then bung that command
>> in a weekly or monthly cron job, as things can get a bit temperamental
>> if /run is full.
>>
> I will bear that in mind
> But power failures are relatively common here when the  wind blows
We are more likely to have power failures when the wind doesn't blow!
---druck

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: druck - Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:32 UTC

On 01/08/2023 23:56, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 21:48, druck wrote:
>> On 01/08/2023 08:08, mm0fmf wrote:
>> My suggestion is to look at the logging levels of various processes,
>> and ensure everything has a suitable log rotate configuration
> I think you are right. I really should set it up better than it is. It's
> a classic "round tuit" problem as it works acceptably as is.
Yes it works, right up to when it doesn't :-)
>  I suppose
> the problem with Pi's and the like is they feel disposable along with
> their SD Cards and once you have something working the urge to do the
> job properly wanes. And you can always just stick the backup SD Card in
> and reboot!
That's why I set up the nightly differential backups, which write the
changes to an image file of the SD card, so if the card fails I can just
write the image to a new SD card and be back up and running in minutes.
That's fine for my Pi's at home, but now I have them running services at
several other locations, which I may not be able to get to for weeks. So
I've set them up far more carefully to avoid using up the SD write life,
and have invested and trying out the Samsung and SanDisk high endurance
variants.
---druck

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 03:40:45 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 02:40 UTC

On 02/08/2023 21:15, druck wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 17:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 01/08/2023 21:30, druck wrote:
>>> If you aiming for uptimes of 80+ days or more, then bung that command
>>> in a weekly or monthly cron job, as things can get a bit
>>> temperamental if /run is full.
>>>
>> I will bear that in mind
>> But power failures are relatively common here when the  wind blows
>
> We are more likely to have power failures when the wind doesn't blow!
>
> ---druck

Ah, well the qualifier 'local' versus 'national' comes into play here,
and it's not exactly true either

high wind leads to far more fluctuation in generation as the wind can
stop wuite quickly, and if all the other generators are shut down,m
there ain't nuthin' left.

People are coming to realise that renewable energy is a far greater
threat to civilisation than climate change, man made or not, could ever
be...

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 02:47 UTC

On 02/08/2023 21:32, druck wrote:
> That's why I set up the nightly differential backups, which write the
> changes to an image file of the SD card, so if the card fails I can just
> write the image to a new SD card and be back up and running in minutes.
>
> That's fine for my Pi's at home, but now I have them running services at
> several other locations, which I may not be able to get to for weeks. So
> I've set them up far more carefully to avoid using up the SD write life,
> and have invested and trying out the Samsung and SanDisk high endurance
> variants.

Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
eliminating failure in the first place?
I will take an SD card image once the design is finalised, but fir now
the Piz are outside my nightly backup regime simply because they are not
changing, and such changes as there are are simply a mater of remounting
my server on a fresh pi and saying 'make;make install'

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: dwhodg...@nomail.afraid.org (David W. Hodgins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: David W. Hodgins - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 02:56 UTC

On Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:47:44 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
> eliminating failure in the first place?

Keeping backups comes from experience. Hardware fails, even sd cards, and
people make mistakes when deleting things.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: 23k.304 - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 06:15 UTC

On 8/2/23 12:47 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 05:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>> On 7/31/23 5:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 31/07/2023 02:54, 23k.302 wrote:
>>>> On 7/29/23 2:42 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>>>> On 7/30/23 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 30/07/2023 10:24, Theo wrote:
>>>>>>> So all you really need to do is reproduce the directory structure:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> find/var/log -type d -exec mkdir -p "/tmp/{}" \;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which reproduces/var/log/foo/bar/  to/tmp/var/log/foo/bar/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Theo
>>>>>> Now that is interesting, and if I leave the old /var/log there, and
>>>>>> mount a ramdisk over it, provided that the ramdisk is*immediately*
>>>>>> populated and directories created, then all should work?
>>>>> Any process that has a log file open before you mount the ramdisk
>>>>> won't
>>>>> automatically start using it.  The process will still have the open
>>>>> file
>>>>> handle to the original, disk-based file instead.  So you'll either
>>>>> need
>>>>> to be sure to mount the ramdisk sufficiently early in the boot
>>>>> sequence
>>>>> to ensure that no daemons have opened their logfiles yet, or you'll
>>>>> need
>>>>> to signal those daemons reopen their logs.  Most do that in
>>>>> response to
>>>>> SIGHUP.  Logrotate often uses that mechanism after rotating logs,
>>>>> so its
>>>>> configuration can help you figure out what needs to be done after
>>>>> mounting the ramdisk if programs are still logging to disk.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Hmm ... MIGHT be able to make that work with minimal
>>>>    pain using systemd. It has 'depends on','run after' and
>>>>    such params. He could init the ramdisk REALLY early in a
>>>>    quasi-structured/quasi-safe environment.
>>>>
>>>>    Not everyone likes systemd - but it DOES have its uses.
>>>>
>>>>    Another trick is to just make the ramdisk whenever and
>>>>    then make /var/log into a symlink/mountpoint. Yes, there'd
>>>>    be some early stuff still in the real /var/log, but maybe
>>>>    that's not important for him.
>>>>
>>>>    However I'd rec ramdisks for where they're more useful.
>>>>    I have an app that does a lot of image manipulation
>>>>    before the results are shown via PHP/Apache on a Pi.
>>>>    I don't want any of that to be reading/writing to the
>>>>    SD card - too slow AND burns it out - but I did want
>>>>    access to be "normal", like with any 'real' drive. A
>>>>    small ramdisk was by far the best/easiest solution.
>>>
>>> I use them in this and my other pi-zero  context as fundamentally
>>> simple interprocess communicators. So in my Hifi Project, a daemon
>>> reads the icecast info off radio streams and writes it to a file in a
>>> temporary file system.
>>>
>>> The web server then has access to that to let me know what misc is
>>> being played, via ajax calls from the web servers radio interface.
>>>
>>> As long as only one process is writing them, this is a very simple
>>> and effective way to transfer data from one daemon to another.
>>
>>    Agreed. If you CAN keep it simple, DO keep it simple.
>>    Remember YOU might have to debug/enhance it a few
>>    years LATER  :-)
>>
> Oh, I learnt my code writing contract assembler for people who wanted it
> well commented enough that the stupidest permie could fix it years later.
> Or myself. Sometimes I look at stuff I wrote and marvel at ait.

Came across an embedded app I wrote about six years
ago. It had its uses and then was obsolete. A big 'C'
program for an Arduino Mega... lots of sensors, interrupts,
data-polishing, what you'd expect. Even after such a
relatively short period I did indeed "marvel" at its
complexity and how it got through a bunch of issues -
and I *wrote* the damned thing in about a month !
How'd I *do* that ???

> I am not a computer scientist. Elegance isn't in my nature. I am a
> software and other sorts of engineer, and making it work, and keep on
> working at the lowets possible prices is burned into my soul
>
> "An engineer is someone who can do for five bob what any damned fool can
> do for a quid"

"What Works" is usually MUCH more important than "What
is theoretically correct". I do not plan/diagram
apps, I just GO for it. Gotta kinda hold the whole thing
in your head so you can see every interaction/dependency.
Always a buzz ! Gets all those old neurons working !

Yea, "computational theory" has its place - but in the
real world ...... shit, I don't even use most of those
"advanced" tricks in Python - too obscure and of little
advantage except to decrease transparency.

It's all 'C' under the hood. All the new "tricks"/"shortcuts/
"methods" are really the Same Old Shit, same (or more) number
of cpu cycles and bytes - just a lot less transparent. "Ease"
and "sophistication" are so often illusions and it's getting
worse and worse.

The "AI's" will soon take over, writing everything THEIR way,
according to THEIR logic. Won't be long after that mere humans
are incapable of understanding/verifying what they create.
It all becomes "magic".

>>    Things like Pi's are special cases - not blazing fast,
>>    not a lot of RAM, run off SD cards/eMMC that have to be
>>    protected from re-write fatigue. If the need for space
>>    isn't excessive, and simplicity is worthwhile (almost
>>    always) then a RAMdisk is often your best solution.
>>
> Ha! compared with a Z80 with 48k of usable RAM or a 6809, they ARE
> blazingly fast. I cut my teeth writing C and assembler for those, stuff
> that was burned into ROM.
> There is so much on this zero ROM - 16GB! And I have ram coming out of
> my ears.

Well, "blazingly fast", except by modern desktop/server measures :-)

PI's are kind of in the gap between microcontrollers and
"real" modern CPU boards. The power-consumption kinda
pisses me off though ... you can basically turn a PIC
or Arduino OFF until some important event happens, thus
making them battery/solar-friendly. NOT so with PI's.

PIs can be good for a lot of applications - but their
limits MUST be considered. They are NOT high-end Xeons,
more like 10 year old laptops.

>>    Because of the filesystem overhead, RAMdisks just MIGHT
>>    not be fast enough ... then you have to go to "less simple"
>>    approaches alas. To each app, its own.
>>
> My access requrements are measured in seconds, not micro seconds.

Makes it easy ! This is OFTEN the case.

>>> In the current project which involves driving 4 mains relays using a
>>> daemon that collects various bits of information in order to decide
>>> when to switch them on, it is used to store the relay state, so again
>>> ajax calls from the web server can determine not what *should be on,
>>> but what is *actually* on.
>>
>>    Cool stuff
>>
>>> I am sure the semaphores messages and pipes might have done the job,
>>> but simply recreating  a file ion a ramdisk every few seconds works
>>> fine.
>>
>>    "Pipes" are a kind of cheat - really just "invisible" R/W files.
>>    I used them kinda extensively on some forking servers I wrote a
>>    couple of years ago in Python and 'C' to make data gathered by
>>    new forks accessible to the mother process. They WORK just fine
>>    and are commonly used and I *think* a tad faster than a RAMdisk,
>>    but still ...
>>
> Oh there surely are faster, but who is in a hurry? a central heating
> controller changes states every few HOURS. and if the users browser view
> of that is a second behind, frankly who gives a damn?

Well, 'device controllers' run at their own pace but
things like comm servers need to run a lot faster and
be prepared for LOTS of clients at the same time. At
the time I was interested in all practical variants and
thus took some skeleton code I found and blew it out
into full real apps.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

<uafida$2100$1@solani.org>

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From: ali...@comet.invalid (Jan Panteltje)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 06:44:57 GMT
Message-ID: <uafida$2100$1@solani.org>
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 06:44 UTC

On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:

>
>
>>   ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
>>   Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
>>   very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
>>   then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
>>   it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
>>   vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
>>   anyhow so ....
>
>As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
>the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.

To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.

>Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
>does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
>reliability.
>
>The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
>reduce stress on it.

For many things Pi is too much power, much can be done with a simple PIC 18F14K22
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
take scope_pic or freq_pic from that site.
*IF* you like to code in asm :-)
Only milli-amps curent consumption
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/

So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'
I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 06:47 UTC

On a sunny day (Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:56:57 -0400) it happened "David W.
Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
<op.182yg7sza3w0dxdave@hodgins.homeip.net>:

>On Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:47:44 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
>> eliminating failure in the first place?
>
>Keeping backups comes from experience. Hardware fails, even sd cards, and
>people make mistakes when deleting things.
>
>Regards, Dave Hodgins

+1

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 09:08 UTC

On 03/08/2023 07:44, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Aug 2023 17:47:56 +0100) it happened The Natural
> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uae1bt$5slp$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>>
>>
>>>   ANYway, /var/log CAN be moved to a RAMdisk if you want.
>>>   Not 100% sure WHY you'd want to, but it CAN. If a few
>>>   very early logs get 'lost' as you re-direct /var/log
>>>   then that MIGHT not be all so important. If you want
>>>   it all on RAMdisk then you don't CARE if it all
>>>   vanishes on reboot. I very rarely look in /var/log
>>>   anyhow so ....
>>
>> As I said, whoever you are, the less writing to an SD drive there is,
>> the less chance there is of file system corruption when the power goes out.
>
> To avoid restarts on power failure use a UPS (I do) or just a simple battery circuit
> was it not called 'battery hat' or something? with the Pi.
>
>
Restarts are not a problem really. the whole central heating system dies
when the power goes out anyway.

If I wanted to run through that I'd UPS the whole damned thing.

>
>> Its simply a natural habit to ensure than whatever an embedded system
>> does is the minimum necessary to get the job done with the maximum
>> reliability.
>>
>> The SD card looks like it might be the weakest link. So I am trying to
>> reduce stress on it.
>
> So much bloat these days just to say 'hello world'

no argument there. Was there even at the time of MSDOS. I once traced
through the code that ran when you hit a key on the keyboard. Thousands
of instructions

> I designed a ram disk for the Z80, wrote a CP/M clone too
> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html
>
>
Neat stuff

--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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 by: Pancho - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 09:43 UTC

On 02/08/2023 17:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
>> On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
>>> This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.
>>>
>>
>> +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
>> find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.
>>
>> TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
>> tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year, or
>> whatever.
>>
> This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough to
> do that.
>

OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do active
wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them. I seem to
remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file that was the
problem rather than logs.

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 16:44 UTC

On 2023-08-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
> eliminating failure in the first place?

That's old hat for anyone who's had to work with M$ products.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

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 by: Allodoxaphobia - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 17:42 UTC

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 16:44:42 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-08-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
>> eliminating failure in the first place?
>
> That's old hat for anyone who's had to work with M$ products.

For many years scientists have tried to perfect fault tolerant systems.
Meanwhile, Microsoft profits by exploiting fault tolerant customers.

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 17:50 UTC

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 03:47:44 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
> eliminating failure in the first place?

I've seen that as a programming design philosophy. The idea is that
it should be possible to kill the program at any time without depending on
it going through some cleanup/finish code it can just stop without losing
anything. The startup code always goes through the crash recovery and
everything necessary to recover must be flushed to disc before
acknowledging an input.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:57 UTC

On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 17:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
>>> On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
>>>> This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
>>> find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.
>>>
>>> TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
>>> tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year, or
>>> whatever.
>>>
>> This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough to
>> do that.
>>
>
> OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
> conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do active
> wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them. I seem to
> remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file that was the
> problem rather than logs.

That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
information?
Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
rarely' filesystem.
Phew.
Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:58 UTC

On 03/08/2023 17:44, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-08-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Interesting philosophy. accept failure and plan round it rather than
>> eliminating failure in the first place?
>
> That's old hat for anyone who's had to work with M$ products.
>
Well that's why we eliminated M$ - and installed Linux, innit?

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

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 by: Rich - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 19:50 UTC

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
>> OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
>> conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do
>> active wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them.
>> I seem to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file
>> that was the problem rather than logs.
>
> That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
> information?
> Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
> writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
> rarely' filesystem.

The problem with the ext4 journal and a SD card /without wear leveling/
is the journal is in a fixed location on the disk, so any write
anywhere that is journaled also becomes a write onto the journal area
of the disk. So the flash cells underlying the area of the journal see
far more writes than the rest of the cells, and wear out sooner.

Now, *with wear leveling* those journal writes that are logically to
the same blocks on the disk get spread all over the flash cells via the
wear leveling controller, mitigating the issue of a lot of writes
happening to the same blocks on the disk. The write amplification
issue is still present in any case.

But agreed, as you've reduced the number of writes to a bare minimum,
you likely won't need to worry about whether your sd card has, or does
not have, a wear leveling controller. Few to zero writes means little
to no wear.

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
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 by: David W. Hodgins - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 20:20 UTC

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:57:22 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
> information?
> Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
> writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
> rarely' filesystem.
> Phew.
> Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
> would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..

I'm using 11 GB of a 32 GB sd card using ext4 on an rpi 4b. A little slow to boot
but otherwise performance pretty good. It's running kde plasma, with no workarounds
to avoid extra writes, just disabling things I don't like in plasma like desktop
effects and most background services.

# free -m
total used free shared buff/cache available
Mem: 3831 1289 1141 49 1400 2305
Swap: 6696 0 6696

It's currently running konversation and guvcview for a camera, but I've used
firefox on it too. Firefox is slow, but not unusable.

I use it mainly for konversation so I can do things on my main desktop system
while discussing things in irc.

I have some spare sd cards just in case and keep regular backups on my main
system. I've been running it with the same sd card since Feb. 2021.

The sd cards are in packages labeled Lexar high-performance 633x microSDHC UHS-I.

I have no idea if that does wear leveling.

The rpi 4b has much better performance than I expected given that it's using
an sd card. I was going to try xfce4 with it, but after seeing it's performance
decided to try kde plasma.

Using something like f2fs would probably be better, but ext4 is working fine for
me. Knock on wood. :-)

Regards, Dave Hodgins

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 by: Pancho - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 22:28 UTC

On 8/3/23 19:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/08/2023 10:43, Pancho wrote:
>> On 02/08/2023 17:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 01/08/2023 21:47, Pancho wrote:
>>>> On 7/29/23 19:45, Robert Heller wrote:
>>>>> This is in fact the default behaviour for Armbian on my Banana Pi M64.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1, :-)  I was just thinking, I spent ages undoing this, in order to
>>>> find out why my system was crashing. But I'm running Armbian.
>>>>
>>>> TNP, FFS, SD cards cost buttons. Pack of two 32GB for less than a
>>>> tenner. If you are worried about wear, clone a new one every year,
>>>> or whatever.
>>>>
>>> This product may end up in places where the user isn't smart enough
>>> to do that.
>>>
>>
>> OK, I remember looking at this back in December and coming to the
>> conclusion it was hopeless. Micro SD cards (probably) don't do active
>> wear levelling + I wasn't clear what IO actually killed them. I seem
>> to remember, someone suggesting it was the EXT4 journal file that was
>> the problem rather than logs.
>
> That is a slightly terrifying thought...does anyone have any more
> information?
> Mm. It would seem that while journalling multiplies the number of
> writes, it wont impact what amounts to a read-only or 'write very
> rarely' filesystem.
> Phew.
> Obviously of you are wring huge amounts of data over and over again you
> would probably attach an SSD via USB anyway..
>

I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.
Meaning the SD card dies well below any quoted TB Written endurance stat.

But.., I appear to have been wrong, some micro SD cards do, indeed, do
wear levelling, the Kingston Industrial for example. But it is pricey
£24 quid for £64 GB (32 GB even more expensive).

Due to this high cost of the industrial SD, for my rPi, I still arrive
at the same conclusion, yearly replacement of a cheap SD.

Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: move /var/log to a RAMDISK
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:59:25 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 3 Aug 2023 22:59 UTC

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 23:28:06 +0100
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> wrote:

> I guessed that the worry was that the journal was a smallish single
> file, used as a circular buffer (maybe 128MB). So, without wear
> levelling, the same few blocks would be getting hit all the time.

Remember write amplification - flash storage uses very large blocks
1MB or more so small writes involve copying most of a block, writing a new
one with the changes and queing the old one to be wiped.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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