On 1/6/22 9:57 AM, Joe Beanfish wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:20:33 -0500, 1.AAC0832 wrote:
>> On 1/5/22 10:10 AM, Aragorn wrote:
>>> On 05.01.2022 at 00:51, 1.AAC0832 scribbled:
>>>
>>>> On 1/4/22 2:20 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 04.01.2022 at 00:21, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/3/22 6:57 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02.01.2022 at 21:36, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Octopi can install it just as well. Why switch to CLI ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because...
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. It's more verbose and more flexible.
>>>>
>>>> Not relevant to me. I just want it DONE, easily.
>>>
>>> Well, so do I, and I find it easiest to use the CLI. ;)
>>>
>>>>> 2. If you completely log out of the GUI first and run the update
>>>>> process from a character-mode virtual console, then the least
>>>>> amount of shared libraries will be in use, and then there
>>>>> won't be any surprises if they get overwritten by the update.
>>>>
>>>> This is true. However it's my practice to REBOOT after any
>>>> "major" update - esp if the kernel/initrafmfs are involved.
>>>
>>> Yes, mine too, although I sometimes need to delay that by about ten
>>> minutes — among other things, in order to deal with any .pacnew files.
>>>
>>> But it may also happen that you get a small update with only a couple
>>> of packages, which cannot be held back until the next major update due
>>> to security reasons. So then I try to avoid a reboot.
>>>
>>>> GAWD will they all DUMP the horrible awful apocalyptic
>>>> Gnome-4 desktop sometime soon ?????????
>>>
>>> Well, you mention RedHat and Oracle (which is a RedHat derivative).
>>> GNOME is primarily being developed AT RedHat, and it is therefore
>>> somewhat logical that they choose that as the default desktop
>>> environment for RedHat, CentOS and Fedora.
>>
>>
>> Started Oracle, thought I'd installed Centos by
>> mistake :-)
>>
>> Such a HORRIBLE and USELESS interface !
>>
>> KDE is obese, but it'd be a HUGE improvement.
>>
>> Actually, XFCE seems to be the "standard" default
>> desktop these days - not too big, not too small.
>> RHEL and clones should REALLY consider it .....
>
> I bailed on fvwm when I tired of fiddling config files. I bailed on
> gnome when it went for the fisher-price appearance and dropped
> configurability. I bailed on KDE when it became crashware. I'm about
> to bail on XFCE because it's going GTK. Gonna try out LXQT for
> my next desktop iteration.

GTK ain't THAT bad ... unless you try to find good cocs
on how to USE it. Frankly, TKinter is easier for making
GUIs and the "how-tos" are endless.

I tried LXQT a couple of times and didn't like it. It was
still in "evolution" though ...

Whatever it is these days, I install good old LXDE. Just
enough GUI and minimal BS ... especially if you use the
apt "--no-install-recommends" flag in the Debs.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:12:45 -0500, 1.AAC0832 wrote:

> On 1/6/22 9:57 AM, Joe Beanfish wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:20:33 -0500, 1.AAC0832 wrote:
>>> On 1/5/22 10:10 AM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>> On 05.01.2022 at 00:51, 1.AAC0832 scribbled:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/4/22 2:20 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04.01.2022 at 00:21, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/3/22 6:57 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 02.01.2022 at 21:36, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Octopi can install it just as well. Why switch to CLI ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. It's more verbose and more flexible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not relevant to me. I just want it DONE, easily.
>>>>
>>>> Well, so do I, and I find it easiest to use the CLI. ;)
>>>>
>>>>>> 2. If you completely log out of the GUI first and run the update
>>>>>> process from a character-mode virtual console, then the least
>>>>>> amount of shared libraries will be in use, and then there
>>>>>> won't be any surprises if they get overwritten by the update.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is true. However it's my practice to REBOOT after any
>>>>> "major" update - esp if the kernel/initrafmfs are involved.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, mine too, although I sometimes need to delay that by about ten
>>>> minutes — among other things, in order to deal with any .pacnew files.
>>>>
>>>> But it may also happen that you get a small update with only a couple
>>>> of packages, which cannot be held back until the next major update due
>>>> to security reasons. So then I try to avoid a reboot.
>>>>
>>>>> GAWD will they all DUMP the horrible awful apocalyptic
>>>>> Gnome-4 desktop sometime soon ?????????
>>>>
>>>> Well, you mention RedHat and Oracle (which is a RedHat derivative).
>>>> GNOME is primarily being developed AT RedHat, and it is therefore
>>>> somewhat logical that they choose that as the default desktop
>>>> environment for RedHat, CentOS and Fedora.
>>>
>>>
>>> Started Oracle, thought I'd installed Centos by
>>> mistake :-)
>>>
>>> Such a HORRIBLE and USELESS interface !
>>>
>>> KDE is obese, but it'd be a HUGE improvement.
>>>
>>> Actually, XFCE seems to be the "standard" default
>>> desktop these days - not too big, not too small.
>>> RHEL and clones should REALLY consider it .....
>>
>> I bailed on fvwm when I tired of fiddling config files. I bailed on
>> gnome when it went for the fisher-price appearance and dropped
>> configurability. I bailed on KDE when it became crashware. I'm about
>> to bail on XFCE because it's going GTK. Gonna try out LXQT for
>> my next desktop iteration.
>
>
> GTK ain't THAT bad ... unless you try to find good cocs
> on how to USE it. Frankly, TKinter is easier for making
> GUIs and the "how-tos" are endless.
>
> I tried LXQT a couple of times and didn't like it. It was
> still in "evolution" though ...
>
> Whatever it is these days, I install good old LXDE. Just
> enough GUI and minimal BS ... especially if you use the
> apt "--no-install-recommends" flag in the Debs.

I object to the latest GTK making every program it's own window manager
and not having the window manager's borders/style/controls and doing
whatever they please in the way of window behaviors instead of how
I have my window manager configured.

On 1/7/22 12:30 PM, Joe Beanfish wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:12:45 -0500, 1.AAC0832 wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/22 9:57 AM, Joe Beanfish wrote:
>>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 00:20:33 -0500, 1.AAC0832 wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/22 10:10 AM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>> On 05.01.2022 at 00:51, 1.AAC0832 scribbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/4/22 2:20 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04.01.2022 at 00:21, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/3/22 6:57 PM, Aragorn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 02.01.2022 at 21:36, 1.AAC0831 scribbled:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Octopi can install it just as well. Why switch to CLI ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. It's more verbose and more flexible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not relevant to me. I just want it DONE, easily.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, so do I, and I find it easiest to use the CLI. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. If you completely log out of the GUI first and run the update
>>>>>>> process from a character-mode virtual console, then the least
>>>>>>> amount of shared libraries will be in use, and then there
>>>>>>> won't be any surprises if they get overwritten by the update.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is true. However it's my practice to REBOOT after any
>>>>>> "major" update - esp if the kernel/initrafmfs are involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, mine too, although I sometimes need to delay that by about ten
>>>>> minutes — among other things, in order to deal with any .pacnew files.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it may also happen that you get a small update with only a couple
>>>>> of packages, which cannot be held back until the next major update due
>>>>> to security reasons. So then I try to avoid a reboot.
>>>>>
>>>>>> GAWD will they all DUMP the horrible awful apocalyptic
>>>>>> Gnome-4 desktop sometime soon ?????????
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, you mention RedHat and Oracle (which is a RedHat derivative).
>>>>> GNOME is primarily being developed AT RedHat, and it is therefore
>>>>> somewhat logical that they choose that as the default desktop
>>>>> environment for RedHat, CentOS and Fedora.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Started Oracle, thought I'd installed Centos by
>>>> mistake :-)
>>>>
>>>> Such a HORRIBLE and USELESS interface !
>>>>
>>>> KDE is obese, but it'd be a HUGE improvement.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, XFCE seems to be the "standard" default
>>>> desktop these days - not too big, not too small.
>>>> RHEL and clones should REALLY consider it .....
>>>
>>> I bailed on fvwm when I tired of fiddling config files. I bailed on
>>> gnome when it went for the fisher-price appearance and dropped
>>> configurability. I bailed on KDE when it became crashware. I'm about
>>> to bail on XFCE because it's going GTK. Gonna try out LXQT for
>>> my next desktop iteration.
>>
>>
>> GTK ain't THAT bad ... unless you try to find good cocs
>> on how to USE it. Frankly, TKinter is easier for making
>> GUIs and the "how-tos" are endless.
>>
>> I tried LXQT a couple of times and didn't like it. It was
>> still in "evolution" though ...
>>
>> Whatever it is these days, I install good old LXDE. Just
>> enough GUI and minimal BS ... especially if you use the
>> apt "--no-install-recommends" flag in the Debs.
>
> I object to the latest GTK making every program it's own window manager
> and not having the window manager's borders/style/controls and doing
> whatever they please in the way of window behaviors instead of how
> I have my window manager configured.

I can understand that perfectly. Maybe it's why there's
still so much GTK2 stuff being made ?

The horrible truth though is that platforms for adding
GUIs to "traditional" languages don't exactly grow on
trees. They're complicated and that means a lot of people
doing lot of work for a long time essentially for free.

I've just taken to using Lazarus/FPC for anything that
needs a GUI. It's also possible - but not super-easy -
to use html/cgi/php to make web-based GUIs. Did one
just recently, but it's relatively crude-looking because
eye-candy was too much of a pain. Laz, I think, uses
GTK2 ... but there's also some QT capability under the
hood now. Good 3rd-gen RAD system.