On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:33:20 -0400, "Newyana2"
<Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
>| Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64
>| Cable modem: Motorola MB7220 V1.0 (2016)
>| Router: Netgear N600Wireless Router Model WNDR3400v3 (2020)
>|
>
> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.

You said you don't want to buy anything from Amazon, so I thought I
would mention that it's $45 there--75% of the Microcenter price.

On 8/28/2023 1:58 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:33:20 -0400, "Newyana2"
> <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> "David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64
>> | Cable modem: Motorola MB7220 V1.0 (2016)
>> | Router: Netgear N600Wireless Router Model WNDR3400v3 (2020)
>> |
>>
>> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>> gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>> highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>> over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.
>
> You said you don't want to buy anything from Amazon, so I thought I
> would mention that it's $45 there--75% of the Microcenter price.
>

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/tp-link-archer-ax10-ax1500-wi-fi-6-router

4 x GbE , GbE WAN port

755 Mbps close, 215 Mbps far 5GHz band

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/tp-link-archer-ax11000-next-gen-tri-band-gaming-router

8 x GbE LAN , a 2.5GbE WAN port

831 Mbps close, 328 Mbps far 5GHz band

The cheap one then, does the basics just fine.

I like their "household" test, as there's a better
chance it reflects greenfield behavior of real devices.

The ax11000 seems to have a cooling plate and thermal tape inside.
For cooling the core (likely a quad core ARM). There should really
be holes top and bottom on these things, for better convection cooling.
You use thermal tape on a cooler plate, if there are multiple chips
of variable height and the thermal tape takes the mechanical tolerance
into account.

It's really hard, on the inside views, to tell whether these use
CMOS radios. Bipolar radio chains might last for more years. Maybe
that's why people rate these things for 3 to 5 year usage or something
(the assumption the radios aren't done with separate chips).

For the even-higher frequency 5GHz band, some of that is optional
in the sense that the router checks for radars in the area, and
if it senses a radar using the band, it's supposed to avoid using
the band in question. The vanilla 5GHz band, would always be available
(radars would not use that band, as it would be too noisy, like a pincushion).
So again, the first unit is good enough (operates on vanilla band).

For both units, you would data mine the Newegg customer reviews,
for signs of reliability problems. I would not be surprised, if
you paid $500 for a mesh router with a forest of antenna on it,
the inside of the thing would be toasty hot.

Paul

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 07:28:50 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 15:42:01 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Newegg is much easier to shop on than Amazon,
>
>
>That's not my experience at all. I don't find a big difference between
>them, but if I had to choose which one I thought was easier to shop
>on, I'd choose Amazon.

Interesting, they're day and night for me. Newegg respects my choice of
category, while Amazon is constantly in "here's something we think you may like'
mode.

If I search for 'external hard drive' on Newegg, that's all I see. After some
scrolling and paging, I reach the end of the list. I can change the sorting
method and it actually sorts the list on the selected method, but it never
expands the list of products. On Amazon, the same search starts off with
external hard drives, but if I change the sorting method or scroll too many
pages into the results it throws away my intended search and shows me rain
gauges, miter saw blades, auto parts, etc. If I click back to Featured as the
sort, I see the hard drives again. Frustrating, so I shop on a site that knows
how to do that properly, then I check Amazon (and the camel site) to sanity
check the price.

I've found that clicking into the category on the left doesn't help the Amazon
situation. As soon as I change the sort or as soon as I go too many pages into
the results, the things I want to see start falling away and I begin to see
kitchen sink strainers, sandpaper, plumbing parts, etc. It sounds like your
experience is different, but it happens to me on two computers and a smart
phone, and to my wife on one computer and a smart phone.

>On the other hand, perhaps that's because I have much more experience
>shopping on Amazon, not just for computer-related things,

If I know exactly what I want and if Amazon carries it, I'm very likely to find
it, but they never show just that one item. They've got the algorithm down to a
science. Never let a customer leave a page without offering something
additional. Sometimes it's semi-hidden down in the section where they say,
"Customers who bought item X also bought item Y", and the boxes are pre-checked
for my convenience, but in addition to a stick of RAM they're telling me most
people bought an engine air filter for their car. I don't even see how the two
are related.

>>where search results for 'router' will eventually include household napkins and
>>gardening shears if you scroll far enough,
>
>
>Do you change the category from "All" to "Computers"? I just tried it
>here with that setting. I didn't scroll through all the Router pages,
>but, I went through several and never saw anything but computer
>routers,

I suppose you could jump to the last page and see what's there. I never have to
go that far before they drift away from what I want to see.

>> but before I pull the trigger I check
>>both sites. I also use https://camelcamelcamel.com to see if the current price
>>is a good price or not. I use two features there, price history and 'alert me if
>>the price drops'.
>
>
>More often than not, when I shop on the internet, it's for something I
>want or need now, so "alert me if the price drops" is not usually a
>good choice for me. Yes, I could perhaps save a few dollars if I were
>more patient, but it's unlikely to be more than a very few.

Back when I was buying the Linksys WRT-54gl WiFi router by the dozen, if the
price temporarily dropped $10 or $20 per item, I could save a hundred or two per
order, so I learned to check the price history, at least. I'll pay the going
rate if I need something right away, but mostly I don't need things right away.

Speaking of getting things right away, before I moved I lived within 3 miles of
an Amazon warehouse. If I ordered something during the day, most things showed
up at the house within an hour. Sometimes orders would show up in less than 30
minutes. That's faster than if I were to go to a store and do the shopping
myself.

On 8/28/2023 10:33 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
> | Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64
> | Cable modem: Motorola MB7220 V1.0 (2016)
> | Router: Netgear N600Wireless Router Model WNDR3400v3 (2020)
> |
>
> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
> gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
> highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
> over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.

Replace a 3-year-old router but keep a 7-year-old modem?

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Beyond Meat, Impossible Meat, and other such meat substitutes
represent the ultimate in ultra-processed foods, which my doctor
told me to avoid. Real meat is natural. Beyond Meat and
Impossible Meat are definitely not natural.

On 8/28/2023 3:21 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 8/28/2023 10:33 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
>> "David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64
>> | Cable modem: Motorola MB7220 V1.0 (2016)
>> | Router: Netgear N600Wireless Router Model WNDR3400v3 (2020)
>> |
>>
>> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>> gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>> highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>> over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.
>
> Replace a 3-year-old router but keep a 7-year-old modem?
>

By the way, the router is somewhat new because a leaking roof during a
rain storm dripped directly into my prior router. It shorted out. By
punching holes in the wall between the adjacent attic space and my home
office, I rerouted both the modem and router into the office. I also
had the 30+ year old roof replaced.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Beyond Meat, Impossible Meat, and other such meat substitutes
represent the ultimate in ultra-processed foods, which my doctor
told me to avoid. Real meat is natural. Beyond Meat and
Impossible Meat are definitely not natural. (However, natural foods
might not be good for you. Look at how many people die of natural
causes. :) )

"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote

> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.

| You said you don't want to buy anything from Amazon, so I thought I
would mention that it's $45 there--75% of the Microcenter price.

And free shipping? Thank you, Ken. You're a dear. But it's
worth $15 to me not to sell my soul. :)

Lots of people love Amazon, and I can understand why. But
it won't last. At some point they'll have such a monopoly that
they'll start gouging. When that day comes, there won't be
any stores left to compete. So I'd rather give the business to
local stores.

This happens repeatedly with monopolies. CVS/Walgreens.
Home Depot. They start out cheap. People love it. The mom
and pop stores go out of business. Then the prices go up and
the selection goes down.

I've been shopping at Whole Foods since before the first guy
started the chain. I still shop there and at two small, local
natural food stores. Not surprisingly, under Amazon, WF is
gradually switching to their own brands, reducing options, charging
more for name brands, labeling produce dishonestly, reducing
local produce, and replacing reputable suppliers with big corporate
operations, like Driscoll's frankenberries. This summer they didn't
even have ripe strawberries for sale. Only frankenberries grown
in Mexico or the Southwest; a weird Driscoll's hybrid berry that's
orange.
The health foods movement of the 70s has come full circle.
Amazon has killed the industry and we now need new, creative
health food stores again to bring back good food for humans...

And that's not even getting into other Amazon problems: all the
wasteful packaging, the abuse of employees, the coercion of sellers
who are forced to charge higher prices from their own websites,
etc. Amazon is a plague.

So I can understand your reasoning. I also think that common
decency is worth a couple of bucks. I hope that Bezos's operation
collapses and fails big time.

"David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote

| > Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
| > gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
| > highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
| > over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.
| | Replace a 3-year-old router but keep a 7-year-old modem?
|

I was basing that on Paul and others saying that your modem
is much faster than your router. I've never actually bought a modem.
Maybe I should. I've just accepted what the cable company
gives us. They're sneaky. Last time we dealt with them they offered
us a discount if we kept their modem. So I figure they're going
to charge us for it one way or the other, by hook or by crook.

A test just now says I'm getting 80 Mbps. So about 10 MBps.
I guess that's not very fast, but it's plenty to stream movies
and anything else I need to do. Netflix says I need about 5 Mbps.

Is a namebrand modem faster than what a cable company provides?

On 8/28/2023 6:21 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 8/28/2023 10:33 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
>> "David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64
>> | Cable modem: Motorola MB7220 V1.0 (2016)
>> | Router: Netgear N600Wireless Router Model WNDR3400v3 (2020)
>> |
>>
>> Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>> gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>> highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>> over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.
>
> Replace a 3-year-old router but keep a 7-year-old modem?
>

Each part of your network stack, connects to something,
and that something follows standards.

Some standards have excellent backward compatibility.

For DOCSIS, your homework assignment might start here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

Datamining a site like dslreports.com , may give pointers
on particular aspects. They even have representatives from
some of the companies, who can comment on technical issues.
Which is more than you would expect from the regular phone support.
The phone support will "baffle you with bullshit".

And it helps to know a few things.

1) Contract rate. Mine is 15/1
2) Technology capability of standard used. Mine is 24/1
(Requires common denominator on both ends)

And you will frequently hear of problems with (2), where
the equipment (at the ISP), chooses not to do the correct things.
While some things might be blamed on the "busy hour" or "loading",
in some cases, the pattern is, the equipment never switches to the
good mode. Tracking down a DSLReport thread, may explain how an ISP
can configure the equipment, to behave in a non-standard way.

*******

It's the same with Wifi (which you're not using). That is kind of a
deep topic, as the user has the potential to interact with the mess
a lot more. Buying faster Wifi, does not guarantee a faster result.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_6

On a laptop, you might need to buy a new Wifi module. And the module
might only be compatible, if the number of coax cables which lead
to antennas, matches the number of connectors on the new module.
The reason for the coax cables, is the module may be buried deep
in the machine, and the usage of a patch antenna on the PCB
(in place of coax), the signal may not make it out of the machine.
The manufacturer of the laptop, provides coax that lead to
the antennas they fitted.

When I needed GbE for the LAN here, I didn't buy a new router, I
just bought a network switch for $39.99. None of the computers (yet),
have faster than GbE fitted. For my usage pattern, two separate 10GbE
cards (plugged into desktops) and no router or switch upgrade, would
give the improvement I need.

Paul

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 21:16:28 -0400, "Newyana2"
<Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote
>
>| > Why not just get a new router? I bought a TP-LINK Archer AX1500
>| > gigabit router 3 years ago because it was middle-of-the-road and
>| > highly rated. They're still selling at Microcenter for $60. You can pay
>| > over $300, but I don't know of any reason you'd need to.
>|
>| Replace a 3-year-old router but keep a 7-year-old modem?
>|
>
> I was basing that on Paul and others saying that your modem
>is much faster than your router. I've never actually bought a modem.
>Maybe I should. I've just accepted what the cable company
>gives us.

Gives? You mean rents?

I never rent from the cable company. It doesn't take long before it
turns out to have been cheaper to buy my own.

>They're sneaky. Last time we dealt with them they offered
>us a discount if we kept their modem. So I figure they're going
>to charge us for it one way or the other, by hook or by crook.
>
> A test just now says I'm getting 80 Mbps. So about 10 MBps.
>I guess that's not very fast, but it's plenty to stream movies
>and anything else I need to do. Netflix says I need about 5 Mbps.

Glad it's enough for you. I get 240 Mbps DL and 12 Mbps UL. That's
usually OK, but now and then I wish it were faster.

> Is a namebrand modem faster than what a cable company provides?
>

"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote

>Maybe I should. I've just accepted what the cable company
>gives us.

| Gives? You mean rents?

Yes, but as I said, they gave us a discount to rent. If we
bought a modem then they'd likely jack the price up. The
trouble is that their prices are not regulated. Once a year
they jack it up and we call them. Then they somehow find
a way to give us the regular price back.

I also need a modem with phone because we're buying a
phone line through them. Those seem to be rare. I recently
moved my own phone to Axvoice VOIP, which is significantly
cheaper. But that's another case where cable companies
cheat. They could charge us more for Internet if we cancel
the phone line. There are no rules and no clear prices.

| Glad it's enough for you. I get 240 Mbps DL and 12 Mbps UL. That's
| usually OK, but now and then I wish it were faster.

It turns out that our modem is rated for 343 Mbps download.
So it's not a limitation with that. And it's all hardwired to every
room, so it's not a wifi issue. But I'm not bothered. At one
point we were specifically buying their lowest rate because it
was plenty more than we actually needed. I remember the days
of 4 minutes per MB. I don't have a problem with waiting a few
minutes on the rare occasions that I download something big.
But in general I don't wait. I don't play video games. Movie streaming
works fine. Software downloads generally take seconds. Websites
typically load almost instantly. (I'm running NoScript and a good
HOSTS file.) Any limitation is typically on the server end.

On 8/29/2023 12:26 PM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote
>
>> Maybe I should. I've just accepted what the cable company
>> gives us.
>
> | Gives? You mean rents?
>
> Yes, but as I said, they gave us a discount to rent. If we
> bought a modem then they'd likely jack the price up. The
> trouble is that their prices are not regulated. Once a year
> they jack it up and we call them. Then they somehow find
> a way to give us the regular price back.
>
> I also need a modem with phone because we're buying a
> phone line through them. Those seem to be rare. I recently
> moved my own phone to Axvoice VOIP, which is significantly
> cheaper. But that's another case where cable companies
> cheat. They could charge us more for Internet if we cancel
> the phone line. There are no rules and no clear prices.
>
>
> | Glad it's enough for you. I get 240 Mbps DL and 12 Mbps UL. That's
> | usually OK, but now and then I wish it were faster.
>
> It turns out that our modem is rated for 343 Mbps download.
> So it's not a limitation with that. And it's all hardwired to every
> room, so it's not a wifi issue. But I'm not bothered. At one
> point we were specifically buying their lowest rate because it
> was plenty more than we actually needed. I remember the days
> of 4 minutes per MB. I don't have a problem with waiting a few
> minutes on the rare occasions that I download something big.
> But in general I don't wait. I don't play video games. Movie streaming
> works fine. Software downloads generally take seconds. Websites
> typically load almost instantly. (I'm running NoScript and a good
> HOSTS file.) Any limitation is typically on the server end.

*Channels (DOCSIS 3.0)*
*Max Theoretical Speed*
4x4 172 Mbps
8x4 343 Mbps <=== quoted number is just the downstream (the channel capacity up/down, is not equal)
16x4 686 Mbps
24x8 1000 Mbps
32x8 1400 Mbps

*Channels (DOCSIS 3.1)*
32x8 10,000 Mbps (could be 4096 QAM, would need damn good signal quality)

8×4 = (8 downstream, 4 upstream)

Using speedtest.net , you should be able to verify
a rough approximation to your contract-rate.

On mine, equipment can do 24/1 theoretical, but the
contract is 15/1 and speedtest.net reads maybe 15/0.8
or sometimes 15/0.6 . I think when the installer was
in my basement, it magically did 15/1 that day. Musta
had extra Cheez Whiz in the line.

*******

There are two aspects to home Internet.

1) Sustained transfer rate, to impress your friends.
2) Ping time, which affects DNS resolves and makes
web browser either work, or be miserable.

If you were on Hughes Satellite, it's (2) that absolutely
destroys your fun. Starlink is OK, because it's in LEO
rather than GEO. And with any luck, your wired ISP will
be able to do better than either of them.

My ping to the dns.x.y of my ISP is 13 milliseconds.
Maybe your router config page shows that address. I got
the address of mine, off DSLreports.com :-) The previous
ISP, their closest piece of equipment was 50-60 milliseconds away.
My DNS works good enough, that my web experience is actually
dominated by my antique download rate.

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| Using speedtest.net , you should be able to verify
| a rough approximation to your contract-rate.
|

Using speedtest I just got 87. Last night with PCMag
I got 80. Contract speed? Beats me. I seem to remember
we once paid for the bottom tier of 50, but I have no
idea how they figure it now. It's way faster than I really
need.

I'm not worried about DNS. That's negligible. I have a brother
in the country who just got Musk's sateellite dish. Supposedly
very fast. But $600 to buy and $90/month at the current price.
No bargain. But he's delighted. He's got no home cell service
and used to have internet via dish, which failed on cloudy days. :)