So, you've probably read by now that a sequel Monkey Island game has
been announced, head by the series' original creator, Ron Gilbert
himself. While details on the game are scarce, apparently this is a
sequel to "Monkey Island 2" (the last game Gilbert helmed), leaving
the status of the later games somewhat in doubt. The new games,
Gilbert has opined, will be intentionally obtuse and difficult, as a
throwback to the older titles.

Honestly, I can't say I'm too excited about this. I enjoyed the
original games, and concede they were both influential, imaginative
and fun titles, I never thought the early games themselves were as
great as some people insist. The puzzles were lame (and often
illogical), and a lot of the humor was more of the "hey, aren't we all
such oddball characters" rather than proper jokes. Amusing, but an
increasingly thin foundation on which to rest a comedy game (later
games improved in this area dramatically).

The most notable thing about the games was more that they were moving
away from the idea that games should be punishingly challenging. The
original "Secret of Monkey Island" was a far friendlier and generally
more FUN game than Sierra or Infocom titles; it was a game that WANTED
you to finish it, as opposed to one that did everything it could to
prevent you from reaching the end. This, more than its cartoony world
or wacky dialogue, is what made the game so memorable. Stripped of
that novelty and played without nostalgia, the original Monkey Island
game in fact aren't all that much fun anymore. They're in fact rather
shallow and devoid of gut-busting laughs. In fact, now that the ideals
it promoted have become commonplace and expected the original "Secret
of Monkey Island" is - dare I say it? - actually a bit boring.

"Monkey Island 2" improved on the first; it added even more oddball
characters and more - and better told - comedy, and "Curse of Monkey
Island" took the idea and just ran with it. But even by the third
game, the franchise was starting to feel a bit stale; it was the same
joke being said over and over again. "Escape From Monkey Island" had
its moments, but it was becoming increasingly tired; the episodic
adventures created a decade later were just treading water. I can
appreciate how and what the original did, and loved the works that
followed it, but honestly? I don't need to revisit Guybrush
Threepwood's Caribbean. I've been there, seen that, got the souvenir
mug.

So, yeah, "Return to Monkey Island"? No thanks, not me. I'm happy to
go somewhere new with Ron Gilbert - "Thimbleweed Park" was a blast,
"Deathspank" was interesting (if a bit heavy on 'its funny because
it's weird' vibe Gilbert seems to love so much)... heck, I even
enjoyed his Pajama Sam and other kiddie titles just because they were
so imaginative. But I'm happy to leave Threepwood in the past. He's
done good work but like a good pirate treasure, let's leave him
buried.

IMHO, YMMV, of course.

Nice, but not my genre.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> So, you've probably read by now that a sequel Monkey Island game has
> been announced, head by the series' original creator, Ron Gilbert
> himself. While details on the game are scarce, apparently this is a
> sequel to "Monkey Island 2" (the last game Gilbert helmed), leaving
> the status of the later games somewhat in doubt. The new games,
> Gilbert has opined, will be intentionally obtuse and difficult, as a
> throwback to the older titles.

> Honestly, I can't say I'm too excited about this. I enjoyed the
> original games, and concede they were both influential, imaginative
> and fun titles, I never thought the early games themselves were as
> great as some people insist. The puzzles were lame (and often
> illogical), and a lot of the humor was more of the "hey, aren't we all
> such oddball characters" rather than proper jokes. Amusing, but an
> increasingly thin foundation on which to rest a comedy game (later
> games improved in this area dramatically).

> The most notable thing about the games was more that they were moving
> away from the idea that games should be punishingly challenging. The
> original "Secret of Monkey Island" was a far friendlier and generally
> more FUN game than Sierra or Infocom titles; it was a game that WANTED
> you to finish it, as opposed to one that did everything it could to
> prevent you from reaching the end. This, more than its cartoony world
> or wacky dialogue, is what made the game so memorable. Stripped of
> that novelty and played without nostalgia, the original Monkey Island
> game in fact aren't all that much fun anymore. They're in fact rather
> shallow and devoid of gut-busting laughs. In fact, now that the ideals
> it promoted have become commonplace and expected the original "Secret
> of Monkey Island" is - dare I say it? - actually a bit boring.

> "Monkey Island 2" improved on the first; it added even more oddball
> characters and more - and better told - comedy, and "Curse of Monkey
> Island" took the idea and just ran with it. But even by the third
> game, the franchise was starting to feel a bit stale; it was the same
> joke being said over and over again. "Escape From Monkey Island" had
> its moments, but it was becoming increasingly tired; the episodic
> adventures created a decade later were just treading water. I can
> appreciate how and what the original did, and loved the works that
> followed it, but honestly? I don't need to revisit Guybrush
> Threepwood's Caribbean. I've been there, seen that, got the souvenir
> mug.

> So, yeah, "Return to Monkey Island"? No thanks, not me. I'm happy to
> go somewhere new with Ron Gilbert - "Thimbleweed Park" was a blast,
> "Deathspank" was interesting (if a bit heavy on 'its funny because
> it's weird' vibe Gilbert seems to love so much)... heck, I even
> enjoyed his Pajama Sam and other kiddie titles just because they were
> so imaginative. But I'm happy to leave Threepwood in the past. He's
> done good work but like a good pirate treasure, let's leave him
> buried.

> IMHO, YMMV, of course.

--
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I did buy the Secret of Monkey Island: Special Edition a couple of years
ago as I had heard so much about it. Honestly I can't say I particularly
liked it. It's not that I think it's bad but the humour fell rather flat
on me as it seemed to be more of the wacky variety than what I think of
as funny. Take that away and you're just left with a point-and-click
adventure. I actually preferred the humour in The Cave, also by Gilbert,
as it didn't come across as though is was supposed to laughing funny but
more just to bring a little smile to your face.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 4:55:12 PM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

The only thing I remember was the insult duel, that was fun.

> So, yeah, "Return to Monkey Island"? No thanks, not me. I'm happy to
> go somewhere new with Ron Gilbert - "Thimbleweed Park" was a blast,
> "Deathspank" was interesting (if a bit heavy on 'its funny because
> it's weird' vibe Gilbert seems to love so much)... heck, I even
> enjoyed his Pajama Sam and other kiddie titles just because they were
> so imaginative. But I'm happy to leave Threepwood in the past. He's
> done good work but like a good pirate treasure, let's leave him
> buried.

Deathspank looks possibly interesting. I love a funny game, but the
gameplay has to be there or it gets boring fast, and unfortunately
a lot of funny games don't do that part well, and you get stuck
and never get very far. Looking at you Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy.

It can also get a bit much, sprinkled around instead of trying to
make everything funny seems to work better. Fallouts 1 & 2
did that real well.

- Justisaur

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 06:43:01 -0700 (PDT), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 4:55:12 PM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>The only thing I remember was the insult duel, that was fun.

The insult duel /was/ fun, but most of its humor came from what an
outlandishly weird idea it was, and how lame the actual insults were.
It was a one-note joke that worked in the first game (and even there
it was a bit overplayed), but it unfortunately has become a hallmark
of the franchise, and at this point any yuks it earns are more from a
nostalgic "hey, I remember the first time I did this, wasn't that
fun?" than any intrinisic humor.

(But given how subjective humor is, take the above comment with a
grain of salt).

> Looking at you Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>Galaxy.

"Hitchhiker's" was just /mean/. I mean, it had wonderfully clever and
witty writing, and some of its puzzles were fiendishly challenging (I
remember the Babel fish puzzle fondly), but it was a perfect example
of the sort of game that didn't want you to 'win'. It was a game quite
content with 90% of its players never seeing more than a quarter of
its content, an idea birthed from the purposely punishing difficulty
of coin-op games which made money by preventing you from progressing.

It's why LucasArts games felt like such a breath of fresh air. In an
era where games were infamous for their tricks of preventing you from
winning becaues of a tiny mistake you made ten hours prior, "Secret of
Monkey Island" instead had a much more relaxed play-style. In almost
every other respect, I think "Hitchhikers" was the better game...
better written, funnier, move involved puzzles -but "Monkey' was
the more fun. And since these were games - things that nominally
people play for enjoyment - its no wonder "Monkey" is looked upon so
fondly.

>It can also get a bit much, sprinkled around instead of trying to
>make everything funny seems to work better. Fallouts 1 & 2
>did that real well.
>
>- Justisaur

>So, you've probably read by now that a sequel Monkey Island game has
>been announced,

Yet another famous franchise I haven't played any of, sigh.

rms

On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:55:05 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>IMHO, YMMV, of course.

I am looking forward to it. Adventure games used to be my bread and
butter but I basically stopped playing them in favor of RPGs and
strategy games but I still play them from time to time. This thread
reminded me that I need to play Thimbleweed Park since I have it
sitting in my Epic Library.

And in other adventure game comeback news... Ken and Roberta Williams
are also working on a game now.

On 06/04/2022 01:11, Mike S. wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:55:05 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> IMHO, YMMV, of course.
>
> I am looking forward to it. Adventure games used to be my bread and
> butter but I basically stopped playing them in favor of RPGs and
> strategy games but I still play them from time to time. This thread
> reminded me that I need to play Thimbleweed Park since I have it
> sitting in my Epic Library.
>
> And in other adventure game comeback news... Ken and Roberta Williams
> are also working on a game now.

I used to enjoy adventure games from my Speecy 48k days with the likes
of Planet of Death, Sherlock and Valhalla. They fell out of favour with
me when the likes of The Forth Protocol and The Lords of Midnight came
along which I felt started really using the power of a computer to
create more complex games which were still adventure games at their heart.

Infocom games, well I have played Hitch Hiker's Guide to The Galaxy but
frankly it was just way too hard to enjoy.

The general problem I have with adventure games (including
point-and-click) is that there's a lack of balance when creating puzzles
in that I either get the answer straight away or you just end up
randomly doing things hoping you can second guess what the designer was
thinking.

As always though, horses for courses and all that.

Regarding the humor it is totally objective, I still fire up the
originals from time to time and love the humor, but YMMV.. and I dont
mind playing decent adventure games. Looking forward to it.

On 06/04/2022 09:28, Werner P. wrote:
> Regarding the humor it is totally objective, I still fire up the
> originals from time to time and love the humor, but YMMV.. and I dont
> mind playing decent adventure games. Looking forward to it.
>

Oh I agree and for me I think I'd go as far to say that personally I
don't think games are a very good medium for it as generally comedy is a
passive activity for the 'audience'. Things such as drama, tension,
intrigue etc. I think can work as being an active participant can
actually increase them as you're more engaged with what's happening.

Just my thoughts obviously.

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 09:13:57 +0100, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>The general problem I have with adventure games (including
>point-and-click) is that there's a lack of balance when creating puzzles
>in that I either get the answer straight away or you just end up
>randomly doing things hoping you can second guess what the designer was
>thinking.

I wish I had your problem. I was never any good at adventure game
puzzles, any of them, even the easier ones. I always factored in the
cost of the hint book as part of the purchase price back in the day. I
sucked at these kinds of games, but I enjoyed them anyway.

And I agree completely, Hitchhikers was too hard to be any fun. But I
never finished a single text or graphic adventure game without outside
help of some kind.

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 10:28:19 +0200, "Werner P." <werpu@gmx.at> wrote:

>Regarding the humor it is totally objective, I still fire up the
>originals from time to time and love the humor, but YMMV.. and I dont
>mind playing decent adventure games. Looking forward to it.

I agree with this.. I have the remasters of the original two always
installed and ready to go.

Am 06.04.22 um 11:21 schrieb JAB:
> On 06/04/2022 09:28, Werner P. wrote:
>> Regarding the humor it is totally objective, I still fire up the
>> originals from time to time and love the humor, but YMMV.. and I dont
>> mind playing decent adventure games. Looking forward to it.
>>
>
> Oh I agree and for me I think I'd go as far to say that personally I
> don't think games are a very good medium for it as generally comedy is a
> passive activity for the 'audience'. Things such as drama, tension,
> intrigue etc. I think can work as being an active participant can
> actually increase them as you're more engaged with what's happening.
>
> Just my thoughts obviously.
>
Not necessarily so, humorous games just have become somewhat forgotten.
Monkey Island, the Space Quests, Leisure Suite Larry were huge back then.
Also on the action side never forget games like Earthworm Jim or BCs
Quest for Tires, which transported cartoon humor. Then do not forget the
first 2 fallouts where the humor came in in small doses but totally
unexpected and really hit you hard.

I just wished more comedic games were made.. I prefer laughter any day
over flying limbs and blood.

On 06/04/2022 13:41, Mike S. wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 09:13:57 +0100, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The general problem I have with adventure games (including
>> point-and-click) is that there's a lack of balance when creating puzzles
>> in that I either get the answer straight away or you just end up
>> randomly doing things hoping you can second guess what the designer was
>> thinking.
>
> I wish I had your problem. I was never any good at adventure game
> puzzles, any of them, even the easier ones. I always factored in the
> cost of the hint book as part of the purchase price back in the day. I
> sucked at these kinds of games, but I enjoyed them anyway.
>
> And I agree completely, Hitchhikers was too hard to be any fun. But I
> never finished a single text or graphic adventure game without outside
> help of some kind.

One of the best puzzle style games I've played (not an adventure) is The
Talos Principle as it did a really good job of introducing you to how
puzzles are solved while at the same time it didn't feel like there was
the case of you get it or you don't. To put it simply it was the sitting
back and putting thought into what do I need to do which for me I just
don't get from you're average adventure game.

As for hint books, or the modern equivalent - google, I try to avoid
them for most of the games I play as I know that when I do it once I'm
likely to then fall into that will be my goto when I get stuck and then
I think am I actually playing a game.

On 06/04/2022 14:19, Werner P. wrote:
> Am 06.04.22 um 11:21 schrieb JAB:
>> On 06/04/2022 09:28, Werner P. wrote:
>>> Regarding the humor it is totally objective, I still fire up the
>>> originals from time to time and love the humor, but YMMV.. and I dont
>>> mind playing decent adventure games. Looking forward to it.
>>>
>>
>> Oh I agree and for me I think I'd go as far to say that personally I
>> don't think games are a very good medium for it as generally comedy is
>> a passive activity for the 'audience'. Things such as drama, tension,
>> intrigue etc. I think can work as being an active participant can
>> actually increase them as you're more engaged with what's happening.
>>
>> Just my thoughts obviously.
>>
> Not necessarily so, humorous games just have become somewhat forgotten.
> Monkey Island, the Space Quests, Leisure Suite Larry were huge back then.
> Also on the action side never forget games like Earthworm Jim or BCs
> Quest for Tires, which transported cartoon humor. Then do not forget the
> first 2 fallouts where the humor came in in small doses but totally
> unexpected and really hit you hard.
>
> I just wished more comedic games were made.. I prefer laughter any day
> over flying limbs and blood.

As you say humour is very subjective and for me I just don't find what I
think is humorous translates well to the medium of computer games. One
that did get me from a slight smile to an actual chuckle was Tales From
The Borderlands but that only just about qualifies as a game.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

> "Hitchhiker's" was just /mean/. I mean, it had wonderfully clever and
> witty writing, and some of its puzzles were fiendishly challenging (I
> remember the Babel fish puzzle fondly), but it was a perfect example
> of the sort of game that didn't want you to 'win'.

Yes, I remember it was still fairly easy to get through to the point
where you escape the Vogon ship and end up on the Heart of Gold. You
were kind of rail roaded to that point since there was an immediate
death waiting if you didn't do the right thing and there weren't that
many things to do. Escape your house, escape earth, escape the
Vogons. But as I recall I got nowhere with the puzzles after that and
lost interest.