I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.

I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

If you still don't see them, refresh your newsgroups list.

> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564

In Agent 1.91: Online >> Refresh Groups List

If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

ζητεῖτε καὶ εὑρήσετε

On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
> OK.
> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>
> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>

I would do a Clean Install.

That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.

The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.

But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.

slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"

Cloning a partition, would copy that number.

Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.

What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.

You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.

Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.

I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.

Paul

In message <lea5gi5mg772pbpgmhf9lkvf3kqqhia24i@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
2023 18:43:02, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>
>Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
>Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11
[]
>If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.

I don't think you will ...

>Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
>some years ago.
>
.... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The thing about smut is it harms no one and it's rarely cruel. Besides, it's a
gleeful rejection of the dreary and the "correct".
- Alison Graham, RT 2014/10/25-31

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <lea5gi5mg772pbpgmhf9lkvf3kqqhia24i@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
>2023 18:43:02, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
DEL

>>
>... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
>the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
>many years ago.
>>

That's when people and not corporations owned the Internet.

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <lea5gi5mg772pbpgmhf9lkvf3kqqhia24i@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
> 2023 18:43:02, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
> >On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
> >
> >Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
> >Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11
> []
> >If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.
>
> I don't think you will ...
>
> >Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
> >some years ago.
> >
> ... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
> the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
> many years ago.

Google Groups indeed does not carry alt.comp.os.windows-10 and
alt.comp.os.windows-11, but *does* have some (relatively) recent groups,
for example:

<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>

I don't have any other example, but guess that Google Groups adds Big
Eight groups like comp.*, but no alt.* groups.

BTW, while several search facilities of Google Groups have been
removed over time, the are still some *per group* methods and you can
reference threads and articles in a specific group:

[Courtesy Marcel Logen in news.software.readers:]

[FS:This will give you a search window at the top of the article list:]

<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers>

<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/jKhjVTx6bT8>
<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/jKhjVTx6bT8/m/4Zry0MsJAQAJ>
g = group
c = thread (conversation)
m = message
Unfortunately, it is not possible to see the original message-id of a
message.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <lea5gi5mg772pbpgmhf9lkvf3kqqhia24i@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
> 2023 18:43:02, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>
>> Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
>> some years ago.
>>
> ... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
> the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
> many years ago.

Nonsense.

There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.

So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
at some time.

To give a few examples:

* microsoft.public.windows.vista.security -- added to Google Groups in January 2007
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windows.vista.security>

* mozilla.support.firefox -- added to Google Groups in January 2006
<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.firefox>

* nz.tech -- newsgroup created February 2003
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.tech>

* nz.soc.maori -- newsgroup created December 2002
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.soc.maori>

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

ζητεῖτε καὶ εὑρήσετε

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

>I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>OK.
>I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>
>I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.

If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

In message <j7s5gi5bu4c8tmjfn1blchbfmvuk8i7t0k@4ax.com> at Fri, 15 Sep
2023 00:19:33, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[]
>> ... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
>> the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
>> many years ago.
>
>Nonsense.
>
>There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
>back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.
>
>So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
>at some time.

Well, I did say "I don't think": I'd picked that up somewhere.
>
>To give a few examples:
[]
Maybe as another suggested it does ones in "the big 8", or another
possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
automatically as they appear.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If, after hearing my songs, just one human being is inspired to say something
nasty to a friend, or perhaps to strike a loved one, it will all have been
worth the while. - Liner notes, "Songs & More Songs By Tom Lehrer", Rhino
Records, 1997.

In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>>I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>OK.
>>I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>
>>I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>
>
>If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>who previously owned it.
>
>If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

Though gfretwell's statement that he doesn't have the PIN suggests it
was a more informal arrangement, and your advice is sound. Though in
practice I wonder what proportion of such second-hand machines actually
_do_ have problems - malware, or just some broken configuration - that
it would fix.

You should check your tyre pressures (and your tyre condition) once a
[insert interval of choice here]. But how many of us do ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If, after hearing my songs, just one human being is inspired to say something
nasty to a friend, or perhaps to strike a loved one, it will all have been
worth the while. - Liner notes, "Songs & More Songs By Tom Lehrer", Rhino
Records, 1997.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:32:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
>2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>OK.
>>>I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>
>>>I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>
>>
>>If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>>with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>>who previously owned it.
>>
>>If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.
>
>Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
>small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
>evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
>they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a matter of being trustworthy. Even
if it was already done, not everyone does it correctly, and the most
prudent course is to do it yourself. And even if the previous owner
was a close relative or friend, they could be infected without
realizing it.

Are there some situations when reinstalling cleanly isn't necessary?
Yes, of course. But you can never know for sure, and in my opinion
it's better to be safe than sorry.

>Though gfretwell's statement that he doesn't have the PIN suggests it
>was a more informal arrangement, and your advice is sound. Though in
>practice I wonder what proportion of such second-hand machines actually
>_do_ have problems - malware, or just some broken configuration - that
>it would fix.

Again, not all. Yes, it's not always necessary. But in my opinion,
it's not worth taking a risk and not reinstalling cleanly.

Note that I said "playing with fire," not "you will certainly get
burnt."

>You should check your tyre pressures (and your tyre condition) once a
>[insert interval of choice here]. But how many of us do ...

My car does it automatically. That's a feature I like a lot. But even
if it didn't, that's a very different situation. Doing something like
that periodically requires remembering to do it. Reinstalling Windows
cleanly on a used computer is something that needs to be done once,
immediately when you first get it.

<gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:

> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
> OK.
> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>
> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

On 14/09/2023 15:32, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
> In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
> 2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>> would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?

I haven't tried to do this, but it may help. You need an installation
media such as a DVD or USB-Stick:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=how+change+forgotten+password+of+Administrator+account+in+Win10&docid=603522125798397830&mid=1C754D6C196DD9545FC71C754D6C196DD9545FC7&view=detail&FORM=VDRVRV&ajaxhist=0

>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.

Yes, there will be. You need to get in to read the Product Activation
Key before you overwrite or reinstall. If you simply overwrite, the two
systems will have not just the same activation keys, which will give you
activation problems, but also the same security keys, which may give you
further problems, though these days I'm not entirely sure what, as in
the past this was considered more of a potential source of problems than
recently it seems to be. You can use this software to read the
Activation Key:
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html

>> If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>> with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>> who previously owned it.
>>
>> If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Yes, in the vast majority of cases. An exception might be ...

> Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
> small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
> evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
> they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

Yes, that last point is valid if you don't have all the software or
driver reinstallation media, but then at least you should run a scan
with more than one anti-malware program.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 9/14/2023 10:32 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>> OK.
>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>> would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>
>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>
>>
>> If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>> with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>> who previously owned it.
>>
>> If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.
>
> Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher

If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.

If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
detect.

One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
information and password. This implies the machine has not
been used, since its Clean Install.

If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
there was just one hit.

Paul

On 9/14/2023 8:19 AM, Ralph Fox wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <lea5gi5mg772pbpgmhf9lkvf3kqqhia24i@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep
>> 2023 18:43:02, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> writes
>>
>>> Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
>>> some years ago.
>>>
>> ... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
>> the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
>> many years ago.
>
> Nonsense.
>
> There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
> back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.
>
> So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
> at some time.
>
> To give a few examples:
>
> * microsoft.public.windows.vista.security -- added to Google Groups in January 2007
> <https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windows.vista.security>
>
> * mozilla.support.firefox -- added to Google Groups in January 2006
> <https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.firefox>
>
> * nz.tech -- newsgroup created February 2003
> <https://groups.google.com/g/nz.tech>
>
> * nz.soc.maori -- newsgroup created December 2002
> <https://groups.google.com/g/nz.soc.maori>

The Google Groups policy has changed over time.

The policy today, is "standard server policy" as seen on the free servers.

1) Big 8 signed newgroup() messages are honored.

2) Control messages in alt.* are "almost turned off".
A signed message into whatever passes for control,
for an alt.* group would work, but who would it
have to be signed by ? Alt groups do not go through
the Request For Commends and Vote procedures, like
a prospective Big-8 group would. Control was switched off
in alt.* because randos were creating vanity groups.

The spool from Dejanews wasn't the only archival content.
There may have been some other historical collections
added (just a group or two kind of thing). This is
why, you might see a "date gap" in a group, which is
the difference between a historical collection, then
the gap, then the Dejanews collection. If you see posts
that were added, that were "close to the beginning of time",
those probably aren't Dejanews.

I don't know the history of "comp.mobile.android",
but since that is in the Big-8 hierarchy, it would
have gone through a Request For Comments, followed
by a Vote. And then someone on the Big-8 board, would
have sent out a signed newgroup() for it.

It might sit in a queue in the server, until an
administrator approved it and it moved into the spool.
it might also need to be hooked up from a peering
perspective. Since Google does not have a lot of humans,
it's hard to say how the poor server managed that on its own :-)
Based on the amount of Drug Spam coming from Google,
the human at Google must be of small stature, and unable
to reach the keyboard.

Paul

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
> > I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
> > OK.
> > I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
> > would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
> > Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
> > cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
> > on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
> >
> > I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>
> Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
> hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
> media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
> fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.

As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

> The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
> (hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
> product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
> fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
> license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
> erase the drives if no license were included).

Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.

Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:54:34 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/14/2023 10:32 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>> OK.
>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>> would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>
>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>>> with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>>> who previously owned it.
>>>
>>> If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.
>>
>> Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher
>
>If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.
>
>If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
>refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
>A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
>The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
>the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
>does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
>so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
>it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
>detect.
>
>One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
>OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
>information and password. This implies the machine has not
>been used, since its Clean Install.
>
>If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
>well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
>started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
>That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
>there was just one hit.
>
> Paul

Ya' know, after reading all this stuff about how it seems I still
don't own a computer after buying it - tnx, Redmond, I think I'll move
up and stay with Win 7 from my present XP which is beginning to be
denied access to too many sites these days.

I'm a year from 90, so I figure if XP lasted this long, Win 7 will
probably outlive me. I cannot believe this crap about Pin Numbers and
the rest of the nonsense I've read about 10-11 and how Redmond tries
to own you.

Gawd, It's incredible what has happened to the Internet since the days
of DOS and very early Windows.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:24:02 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/14/2023 1:15 AM, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>> OK.
>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>
>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>
>
>I would do a Clean Install.
>
>That way, the install serial number will be different
>on the two machines.
>
>The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
>
>But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
>number is assigned as the software install serial number.
>
> slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
> # "Installation ID"
>
>Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
>
>Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
>I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
>made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
>
>What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
>involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
>canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
>more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
>so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
>could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
>Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
>or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
>is the most pathological test case I could think of.
>
>You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
>but my personal preference would be a clean install.
>
>Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
>I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
>enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
>without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
>"device list" against that MSA account.
>
>I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
>as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
>remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
>the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
>removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
>BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
>EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
>even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
>may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
>The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
>that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
>The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
>
> Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:49:47 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

><gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>> OK.
>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>
>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>
>Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
>hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
>media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
>fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
>
>The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
>(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
>product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
>fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
>license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
>erase the drives if no license were included).

This is an auction house that sold machines from a travel agent. I
doubt any of them know anything about the software or they would have
formatted the C:.
The one I could get into seemed to have all of the customer data wiped
and I didn't bother to look into the recycle bin. I added myself as an
admin and deleted the existing account. about 13,000 files were
deleted, If I had the key I would reload it but I don't.
I would put 7 on this but I can't find the drivers. This machine was
shipped with 10 Home-S.
Since the one is toast anyway if I can't get the PIN, I might go on a
driver search for 7. I am just looking for a travel machine to stream
from. I don't plan on doing anything productive with it.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:52:13 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>You can use this software to read the
>Activation Key:
>https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html

That looks interesting and I suppose it will work OK with the one I am
into but the one I can't get into poses the same problem. I wonder if
it will run from the OS on the Achronis disk?

On 14 Sep 2023 18:02:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>> > I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>> > OK.
>> > I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>> > would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>> > Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>> > cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>> > on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>> >
>> > I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>
>> Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
>> hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
>> media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
>> fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
>
> What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
>'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
>setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
>
> As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
>the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
>but not the same as a fresh install.
>
>> The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
>> (hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
>> product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
>> fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
>> license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
>> erase the drives if no license were included).
>
> Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
>don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
>Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
>product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
>gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
>
> Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
>the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
>laptop.

I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
they did do some cleanup tho.
If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 13:22:00 -0500, Cliff@TotallyInvalidated.org
wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:54:34 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On 9/14/2023 10:32 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> In message <3p46gil210fnmetvdjqhq5ml30lgvnkakf@4ax.com> at Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:07:16, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> writes
>>>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 01:15:00 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>> OK.
>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>> would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
>>>> with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
>>>> who previously owned it.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.
>>>
>>> Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher
>>
>>If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.
>>
>>If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
>>refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
>>A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
>>The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
>>the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
>>does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
>>so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
>>it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
>>detect.
>>
>>One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
>>OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
>>information and password. This implies the machine has not
>>been used, since its Clean Install.
>>
>>If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
>>well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
>>started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
>>That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
>>there was just one hit.
>>
>> Paul
>
>Ya' know, after reading all this stuff about how it seems I still
>don't own a computer after buying it - tnx, Redmond, I think I'll move
>up and stay with Win 7 from my present XP which is beginning to be
>denied access to too many sites these days.
>
>I'm a year from 90, so I figure if XP lasted this long, Win 7 will
>probably outlive me. I cannot believe this crap about Pin Numbers and
>the rest of the nonsense I've read about 10-11 and how Redmond tries
>to own you.
>
>Gawd, It's incredible what has happened to the Internet since the days
>of DOS and very early Windows.

I'm with you brother. I still have a W/98 machine and an XP machine.
Everything else (about 8 of them) os W/7.
The PIN is pretty much like the log on password that has been around
for years tho. It does sound like Redmond is still serious about
authentification on 10 tho.
7 and XP are wide open. If you have a key that works, you are in, no
matter how many machines you use it on. They used to do a hardware
match but not now. I have 4 W/7 machines running on the same key but I
also have 2 shrink wrapped copies..

On 14/09/2023 20:41, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:52:13 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> You can use this software to read the
>> Activation Key:
>> https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html
>
> That looks interesting and I suppose it will work OK with the one I am
> into but the one I can't get into poses the same problem. I wonder if
> it will run from the OS on the Achronis disk?

It may work in what is known as the Pre-Execution Environment (acronym
PXE I think) that the setup programs run on, but I don't know because I
haven't tried that. However, if it doesn't, you can still try following
the fairly simple instructions in the video I linked to get into the PC
so you can run Product Key Scanner there.

I've used both 32/64-bit versions to save the product keys on all my PC
builds from 32-bit XP down to 64-bit Win 7/10, so that if necessary I
can rebuild any PC from scratch without losing the ability to
authenticate anything.

Also, if I buy a used PC with a build on it, extracting and saving a
copy of the product keys is one of the very first things I do.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

<gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:

> On 14 Sep 2023 18:02:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>> > I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>> > OK.
>>> > I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>> > would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>> > Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>> > cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>> > on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>> >
>>> > I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>
>>> Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
>>> hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
>>> media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
>>> fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
>>
>> What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
>>'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
>>setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
>>
>> As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
>>the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
>>but not the same as a fresh install.
>>
>>> The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
>>> (hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
>>> product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
>>> fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
>>> license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
>>> erase the drives if no license were included).
>>
>> Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
>>don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
>>Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
>>product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
>>gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
>>
>> Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
>>the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
>>laptop.
>
> I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
> was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
> looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
> I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
> was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
> they did do some cleanup tho.
> If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
you.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11

Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial. You can bypass entering the
product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
add the product key later. Don't know about Win11.

As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work. Could be you
get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
your laptop that was pre-validated. Companies aren't going to waste
time going through the manual validation process.

On 14/09/2023 22:18, VanguardLH wrote:
> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> On 14 Sep 2023 18:02:31 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>>> <gfretwell@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
>>>>> I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
>>>>> OK.
>>>>> I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
>>>>> would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
>>>>> Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
>>>>> cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
>>>>> on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.
>>>>
>>>> Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
>>>> hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
>>>> media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
>>>> fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
>>>
>>> What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
>>> 'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
>>> setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
>>>
>>> As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
>>> the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
>>> but not the same as a fresh install.
>>>
>>>> The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
>>>> (hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
>>>> product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
>>>> fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
>>>> license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
>>>> erase the drives if no license were included).
>>>
>>> Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
>>> don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
>>> Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
>>> product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
>>> gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
>>>
>>> Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
>>> the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
>>> laptop.
>>
>> I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
>> was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
>> looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
>> I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
>> was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
>> they did do some cleanup tho.
>> If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.
>
> You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
> you.
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
> https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11

Depending on what machine is used to do the downloads, or rather what OS
is on the machine, he may have to do some registry tweaks or similar to
get the Media Creation Tool to work:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/media-creation-tool-error-code-0x80072f8f-0x20000/4f8bbe1c-b5af-4cc9-958e-c6c8f3f0b524
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/update-to-enable-tls-1-1-and-tls-1-2-as-default-secure-protocols-in-winhttp-in-windows-c4bd73d2-31d7-761e-0178-11268bb10392

> Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial. You can bypass entering the
> product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
> add the product key later. Don't know about Win11.
>
> As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work. Could be you
> get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
> your laptop that was pre-validated. Companies aren't going to waste
> time going through the manual validation process.

He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there
is no Product Key sticker.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk