On 2/20/23 09:31, Alan Browne wrote:
> My first "serious" job was assisting an engineer who wrote navigation
> s/w for military aircraft.  All in assembler.
Assembly !!!! OH Dude !!!!

On 2/20/23 09:28, Alan Browne wrote:
> I'm convinced that 25% or more of people do nothing on their computers
> beyond the browser - so from that POV, the OS is meaningless.

You hit that nail on the head!
Worst case I came was a woman (won't call
her a lady, as she was not), who had me
do some networking on several computers
in her home office. Her computer was a giant
iMac, costing several thousands of dollars.
She bragged and bragged and bragged about
it all the time I was there.
When I had finished with the job, I placed
a text file in her documents folder with
all the user names and passwords to the various
things I had done. I showed her where and how to
read the file. And I printed it out too!!!!
A few weeks later she calls me cursing about
hiding her passwords. So I opened up her
documents and showed her them. She proceeded
to take a picture of the contents of the file
with her iPhone.
Yikes!!! And she spent how many thousands of
dollars just to use Safari, which sucks.
I should have known better when my file was
the ONLY file in her documents folder.
Back to you point. Most folks would do well
with a tablet.

On 2/20/23 09:47, DanS wrote:
> The worst is trying to troubleshoot an issue...especially with help from Linux-based
> newsgroups >
> The condescendig attitudes and insults hurled at you just because you
used the 'non-
> Linux' term for something, or because you didn't want to spend 8
hours searching the
> web for answers all the while typing out cryptic commands rife with
command-line
> paramters that you struggle with to get correct, for hours on end
with no solution is
> sight!!

It is a different culture. And I agree with you about the
Linux newsgroups. They are filled with complete ass
holes. When they do such, they are displaying that they do not know
much about the subject itself. They are poster children for the
Dunning-Kruger effect

https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740

I have seen a tiny bit of this on these Windows Newsgroups,
but my kill file fixed that in a hurry. With the
Linux newsgroups, after you get your killfile set up,
there is no one left as the Dunning-Kruger has
driven all the good people off.

Fortunately, if you go to the distro's forums, it is
total mensches helping folks. The Fedora group is
a shining example. Totally the opposite of the
Linux newsgroups.

As soon as you get use to the command line, you will
find it a lot easier to use most of the time than
the GUI's, but not all the time. Use what works
for you. That is part of the power of Linux.

What fries me is M$'s forums. Don't get me started.
I have given up swearing for the day. Come here
first. Go there only as a LAST RESORT.

On 2/20/23 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-20 20:10, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-02-20 12:47, DanS wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The worst is trying to troubleshoot an issue...especially with help
>>> from Linux-based newsgroups.
>>>
>>> The condescendig attitudes and insults hurled at you just because you
>>> used the 'non-Linux' term for something,
>>
>> ... something like using the wrong word on a serious sail boaters tub.
>> You'd think the boat would sink if you used the word "right" or "rope"
>> instead of "line".
>
> Not everybody is insulting.
>
> This is Usenet, some people seem to love hurling insults, no matter what
> group.
>
> Try to post an amateur photo to a photo group.
>

Carlos,

He is right about the Linux newsgroups. They
are ass holes.

The distro's forums, on the other hand, are
wonderful.

-T

On 2023-02-21 06:14, T wrote:
> On 2/20/23 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-20 20:10, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-20 12:47, DanS wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The worst is trying to troubleshoot an issue...especially with help
>>>> from Linux-based newsgroups.
>>>>
>>>> The condescendig attitudes and insults hurled at you just because
>>>> you used the 'non-Linux' term for something,
>>>
>>> ... something like using the wrong word on a serious sail boaters
>>> tub. You'd think the boat would sink if you used the word "right" or
>>> "rope" instead of "line".
>>
>> Not everybody is insulting.
>>
>> This is Usenet, some people seem to love hurling insults, no matter
>> what group.
>>
>> Try to post an amateur photo to a photo group.
>>
>
>
> Carlos,
>
> He is right about the Linux newsgroups.  They
> are ass holes.

I participate in several Linux newsgroups. Are you saying I am an ass hole?

>
> The distro's forums, on the other hand, are
> wonderful.
>
> -T

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 21/02/2023 05:12, T wrote:
>
> As soon as you get use to the command line, you will
> find it a lot easier to use most of the time than
> the GUI's, but not all the time.  Use what works
> for you.  That is part of the power of Linux.
>

That may be, but folks please discover the power of Windows that is
PowerShell?

Most Windows users completely skip this, and miss productivity
advantages from automation scripting in that environment.

In an ideal world, there would be much more discussion of that in these
newsgroups, but given that GUI interfaces tempt users to point and
click, game playing is as far as most get.

--
Adrian C

On 2/21/23 02:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-21 06:14, T wrote:
>> On 2/20/23 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-20 20:10, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-20 12:47, DanS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The worst is trying to troubleshoot an issue...especially with help
>>>>> from Linux-based newsgroups.
>>>>>
>>>>> The condescendig attitudes and insults hurled at you just because
>>>>> you used the 'non-Linux' term for something,
>>>>
>>>> ... something like using the wrong word on a serious sail boaters
>>>> tub. You'd think the boat would sink if you used the word "right" or
>>>> "rope" instead of "line".
>>>
>>> Not everybody is insulting.
>>>
>>> This is Usenet, some people seem to love hurling insults, no matter
>>> what group.
>>>
>>> Try to post an amateur photo to a photo group.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Carlos,
>>
>> He is right about the Linux newsgroups.  They
>> are ass holes.
>
> I participate in several Linux newsgroups. Are you saying I am an ass hole?
>
Of course not!

>>
>> The distro's forums, on the other hand, are
>> wonderful.
>>
>> -T
>

On 2/21/23 03:12, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 21/02/2023 05:12, T wrote:
>>
>> As soon as you get use to the command line, you will
>> find it a lot easier to use most of the time than
>> the GUI's, but not all the time.  Use what works
>> for you.  That is part of the power of Linux.
>>
>
> That may be, but folks please discover the power of Windows that is
> PowerShell?
>
> Most Windows users completely skip this, and miss productivity
> advantages from automation scripting in that environment.
>
> In an ideal world, there would be much more discussion of that in these
> newsgroups, but given that GUI interfaces tempt users to point and
> click, game playing is as far as most get.
>

Never cared much for Power Shell. But it has its
uses at times.
I program mostly in Raku, which is cross platform.
One size fits all. Well, mostly.

On 19/2/2023 9:14 am, T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ages ago someone in these parts mentioned that
> they did not like Linux because they could not
> figure out who was using a particular port.
>
> I just had to trace one down. You just have to
> use the command line:
>

Win 10 has Subsystem For Linux!

T wrote:

> Never cared much for Power Shell.
> I program mostly in Raku, which is cross platform.

So is powershell, though I've never used it on Linux or macOS

On 2/21/2023 6:12 AM, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 21/02/2023 05:12, T wrote:
>>
>> As soon as you get use to the command line, you will
>> find it a lot easier to use most of the time than
>> the GUI's, but not all the time.  Use what works
>> for you.  That is part of the power of Linux.
>>
>
> That may be, but folks please discover the power of Windows that is PowerShell?
>
> Most Windows users completely skip this, and miss productivity advantages from automation scripting in that environment.
>
> In an ideal world, there would be much more discussion of that in these newsgroups, but given that GUI interfaces tempt users to point and click, game playing is as far as most get.
>

It's easier to sell languages, if you can provide a link to a manual.

https://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/gawk.pdf

While that manual appears to be lengthy (and it is), the
first part of the manual is the same as the older versions.
The "language" part is only a half of the manual. I don't even
have a copy of the gawk.exe, that corresponds to that version
of the manual. A person may use archive.org to find earlier
manual versions.

That's a language that uses associative arrays as its core.
Which is both a strength and a weakness. Some coding patterns
are almost impossible to understand, like various variations
of sort(). You'll want to scream when you try to sort. They
even added asort() to the language, but it's still not enough
if you've come from another procedural language.

And that to me, is the salient part of language sales.

1) Provide a manual.
2) Do a capsule summary of strengths and weaknesses,
so an individual does not attempt to code a "weakness"
pattern as their first programming assignment.

In my high school, we used to teach each other programming languages.
Not the whole language. Just a flavoring or a smattering of the
language. For example Algol and Cobol and English-like expressions.
The students arranged this, without any help or interaction from
teachers. I was surprised, for a generation with relatively poor
exposure to computers, how many languages we knew collectively.
One of the high school students was already working as a private
"computer consultant", and I think he dropped out of high school
at some point, to stick to his new business. He just... disappeared.

The high school curriculum provided no organized opportunity for learning
about computers. But we had an APL terminal (with the correct Greek
typeball), and usage of the university mainframe for Fortran programming.
One of the students ported Eliza to APL and Eliza would "talk to us"
like ChatGPT, only in the corny Eliza style :-/ Eliza was certainly nothing
to be proud of (smells of if-then-else), compared to the Skynet
we have now. Since this version is from 2005, someone has probably
fiddled with it a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA#/media/File:ELIZA_conversation.png

One of the students even hacked our passwords. So we got to learn
early on, what a computer asshole is :-) Things have kinda gone
downhill since then. Maybe it's the same guy ???

Paul

On 2/21/23 02:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-21 06:14, T wrote:
>> On 2/20/23 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Carlos,
>>
>> He is right about the Linux newsgroups.  They
>> are ass holes.
>
> I participate in several Linux newsgroups. Are you saying I am an ass hole?
Obviously not. You are a mensch.
Since you speak Spanish, the best way to describe
the jerks over on the Linux newsgroups would be
¿Quién es más macho?

On 2023-02-24 07:46, T wrote:
> On 2/21/23 02:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-21 06:14, T wrote:
>>> On 2/20/23 11:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Carlos,
>>>
>>> He is right about the Linux newsgroups.  They
>>> are ass holes.
>>
>> I participate in several Linux newsgroups. Are you saying I am an ass
>> hole?
>
> Obviously not.  You are a mensch.
>
> Since you speak Spanish, the best way to describe
> the jerks over on the Linux newsgroups would be
>
> ¿Quién es más macho?

There are very fine people at newsgroups, with some jerks, same as in
Windows groups. There is, of course, a different culture. I know both. I
don't come to a Windows group saying Windows is crap. I some times
compare how to do things differently in the other system, people
converse nicely.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 21/02/2023 17:21, Andy Burns wrote:
> T wrote:
>
>> Never cared much for Power Shell. I program mostly in Raku, which is
>> cross platform.
>
> So is powershell, though I've never used it on Linux or macOS

I'm currently coding PowerShell on Linux for a web project that is a bit
similar in inception to Jekyll without using Ruby.

Light years ahead of Bash or Cmd.

--
Adrian C

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in
news:k5jkpqFsbmpU2@mid.individual.net:

>> He is right about the Linux newsgroups.  They
>> are ass holes.
>
> I participate in several Linux newsgroups. Are you saying I
> am an ass hole?

Probably not.

Don't get me wrong, it's not _everyone_ in [pick your favorite Linux newsgroup that isn't
an 'advocay' group], but enough of them.

Perhaps it's just my impression of them, _my_ takeaway...