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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

SubjectAuthor
* Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFStan Brown
+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAndy Burnelli
|+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAnt
||`* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFwasbit
|| `* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAndy Burnelli
||  `- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFwasbit
|`- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFStan Brown
+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFVanguardLH
|+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFVanguardLH
||`* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFStan Brown
|| `- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFVanguardLH
|`* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAndy Burns
| `* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFVanguardLH
|  `* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFCarlos E.R.
|   `* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
|    `- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFCarlos E.R.
+- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFBill
+- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFMichael Logies
|`* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFwasbit
| +* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFcroy
| |`- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
| `- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFKen Blake
+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAmmammata
|+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFVanguardLH
||`* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFAmmammata
|| `* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFCarlos E.R.
||  `- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
|`- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
+- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
+* Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFMr. Man-wai Chang
|`- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFPaul
`- Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDFZaghadka

Pages:12
Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

<ttr55n$d8f3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 16:41:10 -0500
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 by: Paul - Thu, 2 Mar 2023 21:41 UTC

On 3/2/2023 11:16 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 3/1/2023 9:05 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> But since then, I've noticed that Microsoft print to PDF creates
>> ridiculously large files. A four-page all-text Web page is several
>> MB, for instance. I delved into the settings, and there's a setting
>> for print-to-file quality. Hooray, thought I, I'll just set it to
>> lower quality, which will still be fine for all my files that are
>> read on screen. But the print quality setting has only one choice:
>> 600 DPI! That seems particularly inane.
>
> Because it printed to an image, which was then converted back into PDF?
>
> I think the quality setting mattered. Not sure whether CutePDF actually convert text in the input document to actually text fonts in a PDF.

Microsoft stores this inside a PDF, when the PDF is made.

Notice to store this page, takes 1 megabyte of data.

This file was extracted using the mutool extract command on a
PDF file from a browser web page.

https://i.postimg.cc/KzwLVVV9/image-0026.jpg

That is to give you some idea what has happened to the text. The
text is rendered inside the JPG and has jagged edges.

While you can overlay text strings over top of that (similar to
how OCR is done and injected into a PDF), they can just leave
the images if they want and not bother with fonts.

mutool extract arstechica-via-microsoft.pdf

Paul

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

<ttr8pg$dj8k$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 17:42:55 -0500
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 by: Paul - Thu, 2 Mar 2023 22:42 UTC

On 3/2/2023 2:49 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-01 16:59, Ammammata wrote:
>> on 01/03/2023, VanguardLH supposed :
>>> But a "web page", while all HTML is all text, is not a per se text file.
>>
>> yes, I missed 'web', so I tried again using https://www.rsssf.org/ home page
>> it's about 30kb text, plus 2 images
>> final PDF is 709 Kb
>>
>> then I tried another one, text only: https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html
>> it's about 70kb text, the PDF is 440kb
>>
>> same page using firefox "save to pdf" id 202kb
>
> in my Linux, that page in FF, print to pdf, takes 92K.
>
> cer@Telcontar:~> pdfinfo Czechoslovakia\ -\ List\ of\ Second\ Level\ League\ Tables\ 1970-1993.pdf
> Creator:         Mozilla Firefox
> Producer:        cairo 1.17.4 (https://cairographics.org)
> CreationDate:    Thu Mar  2 20:36:05 2023 CET
> Custom Metadata: no
> Metadata Stream: no
> Tagged:          no
> UserProperties:  no
> Suspects:        no
> Form:            none
> JavaScript:      no
> Pages:           34
> Encrypted:       no
> Page size:       842 x 596 pts (A4)
> Page rot:        0
> File size:       93402 bytes
> Optimized:       no
> PDF version:     1.5
> cer@Telcontar:~>
>> cer@Telcontar:~> pdffonts Czechoslovakia\ -\ List\ of\ Second\ Level\ League\ Tables\ 1970-1993.pdf name                                 type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>> EKUGVP+CairoFont-0-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     10  0
>> XKTWLQ+CairoFont-1-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     11  0
>> VBPJMM+CairoFont-2-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     12  0
>> KPTDZI+CairoFont-3-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     13  0
>> LMXPCR+CairoFont-4-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes    219  0
>> cer@Telcontar:~>
>
>
>
> However, the first link takes 2.3 MB.
>
> cer@Telcontar:~> pdfinfo The\ Introduction\ Page\ of\ the\ RSSSF\ --\ The\ Rec.Sport.Soccer\ Statistics\ Foundation..pdf
> Creator:         Mozilla Firefox
> Producer:        cairo 1.17.4 (https://cairographics.org)
> CreationDate:    Thu Mar  2 20:39:18 2023 CET
> Custom Metadata: no
> Metadata Stream: no
> Tagged:          no
> UserProperties:  no
> Suspects:        no
> Form:            none
> JavaScript:      no
> Pages:           15
> Encrypted:       no
> Page size:       842 x 596 pts (A4)
> Page rot:        0
> File size:       2379266 bytes
> Optimized:       no
> PDF version:     1.5
> cer@Telcontar:~>
>
>> cer@Telcontar:~> pdffonts The\ Introduction\ Page\ of\ the\ RSSSF\ --\ The\ Rec.Sport.Soccer\ Statistics\ Foundation..pdf name                                 type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>> DYOJIG+CairoFont-0-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     56  0
>> FASZWM+CairoFont-1-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     57  0
>> VLAWPN+CairoFont-2-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     58  0
>> DPTQJF+CairoFont-3-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     59  0
>> YBVYQL+CairoFont-4-0                 Type 1C           WinAnsi          yes yes yes     60  0
>> EAHOKH+CairoFont-1-1                 CID Type 0C       Identity-H       yes yes yes   1717  0
>> cer@Telcontar:~>

The best I can do on the text table, was to load the HTML
link into LibreOffice Writer, then Export As PDF and that was a 98 KB PDF.
It uses LiberationSerif font (plain and bold) for rendering,
using its own TrueType font. So that might be a similar Cairo
print path.

While I haven't examined it for Type42 fonts, there probably
aren't any, given the size of the file.

Saving the text table link as a Web Page Complete, is a 71KB .htm file.
No Javascript. Some kind of miracle. Who knew you could make web pages
without Javascript.

Czech text table test:

Web 71KB
PDF with TTfont (LO) 98KB
XPS 350KB
Postscript (Type42 fonts) 699KB ==> ps2pdf13 (Courier, TimesRoman, TTfont) 171 KB

Paul

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

<ttr8t5$dj8k$2@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 17:44:53 -0500
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 by: Paul - Thu, 2 Mar 2023 22:44 UTC

On 3/2/2023 10:57 AM, croy wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:45:13 +0000, wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Nice programme. I've used it for several years instead of PDF-Exchange &
>> PDF Creator because it does so much in one small programme.
>
> One small programme... only 288 MB.

Check for QT4 or QT5 ?

That's the first thing I look for, when there is bloat.
QT makes it easy to be cross-platform, but things like
internationalization tend to blow up the size.

Paul

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
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 by: Paul - Thu, 2 Mar 2023 22:56 UTC

On 3/2/2023 2:31 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-01 09:45, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> I did a search using Startpage.  I printed the web page.  Results I got:
>>>>
>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (original, color): 970 KB
>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (simplified, color): 75 KB
>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (original, no color): 542 KB
>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (simplified, no color): 75 KB
>>>>
>>>> - Microsoft to PDF (original, color): 1.77 MB
>>>> - Microsoft to PDF (simplified, color): 198 KB
>>>
>>> For web pages, most browsers now have built-in save/print to PDF too.
>>>
>>> I like bullzip, the reason I started using it many years ago, was for
>>> the ability to merge a 'watermark' PDF with the output, the
>>> equivalent of pre-printed letterhead or invoice stationery ... not
>>> needed nowadays as accounts packages can directly email PDF versions.
>>
>> I mentioned (in a reply to myself) the Save to PDF in web browsers about
>> 2-1/2 hours before your reply.  I only tested Firefox.  I omitted
>> testing Edge/Chrome and Chrome.  In Firefox, color mode for output was
>> disabled (as it is for the Microsoft to PDF printer).
>>
>> It is not just the output file size that matters.  Some PDF printer
>> output is less sharp.  They've not used more gray scale to make
>> characters sharper, and they compressed more which degrades quality.
>> So, getting a smaller output .pdf file could likely mean less quality in
>> the output.  I didn't bother to measure or review quality of output.  My
>> eyes are too old, and my opinion on quality likely skewed.
>
> PDF output can be a rendered photo, or not. And photos are generated thinking of the "printer" resolution. This effects file size.
>
> You can render a page of text as text with format, or as a photo. That affects size.
>
> Fonts can be embedded, or not.
>
> Things like "the background is yellow" are small, but if rendered as photo are huge.

You can place images with resolutions *higher* than the print engine
in a file, and the print engine knows what to do.

Setting a resolution option as part of the printing process, does
not necessarily "cap" everything that comes along.

Both PostScript and PDF have transformation matricies, so they
can scale anything up or down arbitrarily. The matrix also allows
rotation, and if you're really clever, you can rotate the stupid
image so it does not even hit the paper (been there, bought the
Tshirt). A rotation of -90 degrees makes the image "disappear".

Adobe has a couple of manuals, up around 1000 pages or so each,
and it contains the entire Postscript and PDF languages and
how the matrix math works. That's where you learn such things.
These manuals can be downloaded for free (at one time, they were
printed and bound, and I have one of those back when you couldn't
get them as a PDF).

If some matrix operators had gone missing in a print, your
print job might appear in a 1" x 1" square on the paper.

Paul

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
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 by: VanguardLH - Fri, 3 Mar 2023 02:42 UTC

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Firefox's Save to PDF. That also disables the color mode
>> option,
>
> By "disables the option" do you mean "forces color mode," like
> Microsoft Print to PDF?

Yep. The Color button is disabled meaning you cannot click on it to
select black & white.

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2023 00:09:07 -0600
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 3 Mar 2023 06:09 UTC

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 17:05:30 -0800, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Stan Brown
wrote:

>
>When I got my Windows 10 computer late in 2021, I saw that Windows
>included Microsoft Print to PDF, so I didn't bother installing
>CutePDF, which I use on my Windows 8.1 laptop.
>
>But since then, I've noticed that Microsoft print to PDF creates
>ridiculously large files. A four-page all-text Web page is several
>MB, for instance. I delved into the settings, and there's a setting
>for print-to-file quality. Hooray, thought I, I'll just set it to
>lower quality, which will still be fine for all my files that are
>read on screen. But the print quality setting has only one choice:
>600 DPI! That seems particularly inane.
>
><https://www.technibble.com/forums/threads/dont-use-the-microsoft-
>print-to-pdf-printer.86229/> says DPI can't be changed, and that
>color/B&W is set to color, which also can't be changed. No wonder the
>files are big!
>
>Googling for
> "Microsoft print to PDF" change dpi
>turned up a bunch of software programs, but nothing native to
>Windows. If I'm going to install something third party it may as well
>be one I'm familiar with.
>
>So it's back to CutePDF for me.

Thanks for the heads up. I never noticed what a pig it was until you
brought it up because disk sizes are so huge.

I went for CutePDF too, because I used to use PrimoPDF but it's old and
throwing up a lot of web errors (even though it works). Primo is nice
because you can customize size and quality on the spot.

Thank you for posting something useful to these groups!

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

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Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
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In-Reply-To: <tto9gm$1jluj$1@paganini.bofh.team>
 by: wasbit - Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:44 UTC

On 01/03/2023 19:37, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> wasbit wrote:
>
>> On 01/03/2023 04:54, Ant wrote:
>>> Andy Burnelli <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I just realized "shrink pdf file size" isn't on that list.
>>>> It needs to be added.
>>>
>>>> Anyone know of freeware expressly to shrink PDF file sizes?
>>>> [_] Shrink PDF file size (Adobe Acrobat Writer payware)
>>>
>>> https://reducepdfsize.com/ (old, but works for me)
>>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>

No, I didn't.

Michael Logies posted in alt.comp.os.windows-10
Very popular in germany:
https://www.pdf24.org/

I replied
Nice programme. I've used it for several years instead of PDF-Exchange &
PDF Creator because it does so much in one small programme.
Both PDF24 & PDF Creator have compression options

- https://www.pdf24.org/
- https://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

--
Regards
wasbit

Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF

<8et8djxrpt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=69432&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#69432

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Warning about Microsoft Print to PDF
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 11:06:32 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <ttr9jn$dleg$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:06 UTC

On 2023-03-02 23:56, Paul wrote:
> On 3/2/2023 2:31 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-01 09:45, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I did a search using Startpage.  I printed the web page.  Results I
>>>>> got:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (original, color): 970 KB
>>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (simplified, color): 75 KB
>>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (original, no color): 542 KB
>>>>> - Bullzip PDF Printer (simplified, no color): 75 KB
>>>>>
>>>>> - Microsoft to PDF (original, color): 1.77 MB
>>>>> - Microsoft to PDF (simplified, color): 198 KB
>>>>
>>>> For web pages, most browsers now have built-in save/print to PDF too.
>>>>
>>>> I like bullzip, the reason I started using it many years ago, was for
>>>> the ability to merge a 'watermark' PDF with the output, the
>>>> equivalent of pre-printed letterhead or invoice stationery ... not
>>>> needed nowadays as accounts packages can directly email PDF versions.
>>>
>>> I mentioned (in a reply to myself) the Save to PDF in web browsers about
>>> 2-1/2 hours before your reply.  I only tested Firefox.  I omitted
>>> testing Edge/Chrome and Chrome.  In Firefox, color mode for output was
>>> disabled (as it is for the Microsoft to PDF printer).
>>>
>>> It is not just the output file size that matters.  Some PDF printer
>>> output is less sharp.  They've not used more gray scale to make
>>> characters sharper, and they compressed more which degrades quality.
>>> So, getting a smaller output .pdf file could likely mean less quality in
>>> the output.  I didn't bother to measure or review quality of output.  My
>>> eyes are too old, and my opinion on quality likely skewed.
>>
>> PDF output can be a rendered photo, or not. And photos are generated
>> thinking of the "printer" resolution. This effects file size.
>>
>> You can render a page of text as text with format, or as a photo. That
>> affects size.
>>
>> Fonts can be embedded, or not.
>>
>> Things like "the background is yellow" are small, but if rendered as
>> photo are huge.
>
> You can place images with resolutions *higher* than the print engine
> in a file, and the print engine knows what to do.

True, but the images are bigger, occupy more file space. Depends on the
situation whether you want a small file or big.

>
> Setting a resolution option as part of the printing process, does
> not necessarily "cap" everything that comes along.
>
> Both PostScript and PDF have transformation matricies, so they
> can scale anything up or down arbitrarily. The matrix also allows
> rotation, and if you're really clever, you can rotate the stupid
> image so it does not even hit the paper (been there, bought the
> Tshirt). A rotation of -90 degrees makes the image "disappear".
>
> Adobe has a couple of manuals, up around 1000 pages or so each,
> and it contains the entire Postscript and PDF languages and
> how the matrix math works. That's where you learn such things.
> These manuals can be downloaded for free (at one time, they were
> printed and bound, and I have one of those back when you couldn't
> get them as a PDF).
>
> If some matrix operators had gone missing in a print, your
> print job might appear in a 1" x 1" square on the paper.
>
>    Paul
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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