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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

SubjectAuthor
* A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
|`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Carlos E.R.
| ||`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Andreas Kohlbach
| |`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| | `* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Pancho
| |  |+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Richard Kettlewell
| |  ||+- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  ||`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  || |+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || ||+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Pancho
| |  || |||`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || ||| +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || ||| |+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Pancho
| |  || ||| ||`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || ||| || `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  || ||| |`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  || ||| | `* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Chris Schram
| |  || ||| |  `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Robert Riches
| |  || ||| `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jim H
| |  || ||+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.David W. Hodgins
| |  || |||`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || ||| `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  || ||`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.scott
| |  || |`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Carlos E.R.
| |  || +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Ahem A Rivet's Shot
| |  || |`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Jörg Lorenz
| |  || `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.MarioCCCP
| |  |`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |  `* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |   `* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Rich
| |    `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Rich
+* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.23k.304
|`* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Computer Nerd Kev
| +* Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.The Natural Philosopher
| |`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.24k.305
| `- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.24k.305
`- Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.Andy Burns

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A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub50gn$q4ed$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 10:54:30 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 09:54 UTC

Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
a result of a write operation, however.

There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.

So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.

In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
would *without disk caching*...

Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
*knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
the SD card *at all*.

And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
information.

I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.

As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.

So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
-noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
application.

And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
Zero.

--
"If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub59ad$d4ul$1@solani.org>

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 14:24:45 +0200
Organization: Camembert Normand au Lait Cru
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In-Reply-To: <ub50gn$q4ed$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Jörg Lorenz - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:24 UTC

Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
> a result of a write operation, however.
>
> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>
> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>
> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
> would *without disk caching*...
>
> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
> the SD card *at all*.
>
> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
> information.
>
> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>
> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>
> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
> application.
>
> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
> Zero.

What exactly is your question?

--
Manus manum lavat

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub5jl6$spt4$9@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:21:10 +0100
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 15:21 UTC

On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>
>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>
>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>
>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>> would *without disk caching*...
>>
>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>> the SD card *at all*.
>>
>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>> information.
>>
>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>
>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>
>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>> application.
>>
>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>> Zero.
>
> What exactly is your question?
>
My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"

This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
research into some general practical conclusions.

If you are not interested in it, just skip it.

--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 17:48:39 +0200
Organization: Camembert Normand au Lait Cru
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 15:48 UTC

Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>
>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>
>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>
>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>
>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>
>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>> information.
>>>
>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>
>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>
>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>> application.
>>>
>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>> Zero.
>>
>> What exactly is your question?
>>
> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"

Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?

> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
> research into some general practical conclusions.
>
> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.

I'll ask when I am interested.

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<v7aiqjx0f8.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 20:11:43 +0200
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In-Reply-To: <ub5l8n$db98$1@solani.org>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 18:11 UTC

On 2023-08-11 17:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>>
>>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>>
>>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>>
>>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>>
>>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>>
>>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>>> application.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>>> Zero.
>>>
>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>
>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>
> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?

Not correct.

As we are in a Linux group, you might remember that Linus posted his
first kernel here (on comp.os.minix) and it was not a question.

>
>> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
>> research into some general practical conclusions.
>>
>> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.
>
> I'll ask when I am interested.
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub5tnp$ud9f$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ric...@example.invalid (Rich)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Rich - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 18:13 UTC

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
[snip long research summary]
>>>
>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>> Zero.
>>
>> What exactly is your question?
>>
> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"

Well, you were responded to by Jörg -- it has a mental defect where it
can't help but be a prime asshole. That mental defect earned it a
permanant position in my killfile. I only saw it's response because of
your response.

> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
> research into some general practical conclusions.

And condensing a few hundred scattered individual articles in the two
groups into a single place for future reference. It was a useful
summary post, even if Jörg had an issue.

> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.

Indeed, some can't seem to 'get' that simple bit of logic into their
thick heads.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 22:07:34 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 21:07 UTC

On 11/08/2023 16:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 11/08/2023 13:24, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 11:54 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Doing the research reveals the true case about wear on flash memory
>>>> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
>>>> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
>>>> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
>>>> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
>>>> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
>>>> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
>>>> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
>>>> a result of a write operation, however.
>>>>
>>>> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
>>>> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
>>>> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent but unread cells.
>>>> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
>>>> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.
>>>>
>>>> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
>>>> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>>>>
>>>> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
>>>> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
>>>> would *without disk caching*...
>>>>
>>>> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
>>>> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes) as valid. I cannot
>>>> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
>>>> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
>>>> the SD card *at all*.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
>>>> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
>>>> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
>>>> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
>>>> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
>>>> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
>>>> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
>>>> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
>>>> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
>>>> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
>>>> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>>>>
>>>> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
>>>> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
>>>> card: The exception being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
>>>> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>>>>
>>>> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
>>>> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
>>>> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
>>>> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
>>>> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
>>>> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
>>>> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
>>>> application.
>>>>
>>>> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
>>>> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
>>>> Zero.
>>>
>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>
>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>
> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

>> This is information for Pi people using SD cards. Condensing a mornings
>> research into some general practical conclusions.
>>
>> If you are not interested in it, just skip it.
>
> I'll ask when I am interested.
>
Well, next time why not shut the fuck up when you are not.

You don't get to decide policy.

All you have is a keyboard and a killfile. It's very democratic. You can
only create your own safe space, you cant dictate it for anyone else

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2023 23:33:41 +0200
Organization: Camembert Normand au Lait Cru
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 21:33 UTC

Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?

Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Pancho - Fri, 11 Aug 2023 22:03 UTC

On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
>> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
>> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>
> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>
When is an identity real, and when is it fake?

Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or something,
it is not.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 00:10 UTC

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 20:11:43 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> On 2023-08-11 17:48, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 17:21 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

You all forgot how to trim postings? :-/

>>>> What exactly is your question?
>>>>
>>> My question is "Why did you think that a post has to be a question?"
>> Because the posting otherwise is unsoliceted spam?
>
> Not correct.
>
> As we are in a Linux group, you might remember that Linus posted his
> first kernel here (on comp.os.minix) and it was not a question.

Part was.

| [...] PS. Could someone please try to finger me from overseas, as I've
| installed a "changing .plan" (made by your's truly), and I'm not certain
| it works from outside? It should report a new .plan every time.

<https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~awb/linux.history.html>

But I agree, announcements may be okay, if they are on topic.

F'up2 colm.
--
Andreas

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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 by: 23k.304 - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 05:22 UTC

On 8/11/23 5:54 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Doing the research reveals  the true case about wear on flash memory
> style devices and that is that substantially reads do *not* damage the
> cells at all, at least no more than reading, say, DRAM. It is block
> erases and writes that do and so, paradoxically, when used as a PROM,
> probably wear levelling is entirely unnecessary. And if done
> gratuitously may actually reduce lifetime. By 'gratuitously;, I mean
> that it is done when there is no write operation in progress.
> I cannot see any reason why one would shuffle blocks around *except* as
> a result of a write operation, however.
>
> There appears to be one aspect of read operations that *does* disturb
> the data (read distrurbance), and that is that read operations can
> minutely affect the state of physically adjacent  but unread cells.
> However this is generally at least an order of magnitude below write
> damage, and is normally dealt with by error correction.

This is substantially correct. Reading from an SD/SSD *can*
result in re-writes, thus shortening the life of the medium.
How MUCH/OFTEN ... well, it depends.

The BEST IDEA is to shift EVERY relevant file that
might possibly try to be read/writ to/from an SD off
into RAM as quickly as possible. Depending on your
distro you might be able to shift the entire OS to
RAM. Some "live" distros are kinda like this already.
A Pi with 4+ gb of RAM may be adequate enough for
this approach.

In any case, SDs are "smart" devices, they have a
controller to manage various needs. They are not
just "stupid" memory space even though they try
to *appear* as such to the user.

A few of my applications involve like a DECADE
of reliability. As such the hidden tricks of SDs
becomes relevant (as do memory leaks).

> So smart SSDS with good wear levelling will *occasionally* rewrite read
> only blocks, but this is in terms of hundreds of thousands of reads.
>
> In my particular application the reads to reasonably static
> configuration files will exceed 32 million per annum, or rather they
> would *without disk caching*...
>
> Now I am unaware as to how long Linux will regard a read only file that
> is fully cached (my files are less than 1kBytes)  as valid.  I cannot
> see *any* reason why re-reading file data that the operating systems
> *knows* has not changed, would result in any actual 'physical' reads to
> the SD card *at all*.
>
> And in fact in my particular application one code and data is loaded,
> even changing the configurations files should not result in a physical
> read, as the disk cache itself used to do the writing will retain the
> information.
>
> I think the summary of all of this research is significant for PI users
> running Linux in what may be generally classed as 'read often, write
> seldom' accesses to an SD card, and that is that by far and away the
> greatest protection the card has is the Linux disk buffering algorithm
> itself, provided that constant reads do not exceed its capacity. In a
> typical 24x7 applications there is no reason why, post boot, any SD
> reads should happen *at all*, once the disk cache is full. It also shows
> the absolutely vital role that '-noatime' plays in protecting read only
> files that are read continuously from producing unwanted writes.
>
> As far as writes go there will (nearly) always be a 1:1 correlation
> eventually between writes to the linux file system and writes to the SD
> card: The exception  being data that us rewritten to the same disk file
> cache before it gets flushed to physical storage.
>
> So the general rule in utilising the SD card in the most effective
> manner, is to reduce writes to a minimum by firstly mounting the card
> -noatime, and secondly using RAM disks to do any logging that you can't
> turn off, and for all operations where ephemeral data are being recorded
> and read, but which do not need to survive a reboot. Then, having a
> superfluity of RAM available for disk caching will reduce SD *reads* to
> essentially zero. No matter how often the file system is accessed by the
> application.
>
> And in fact using iostat on my running application shows no (physical)
> reads or writes *AT ALL*. As evinced by the rock steady light on the Pi
> Zero.
>
>
>

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:43:16 +0100
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:43 UTC

Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> writes:
> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry
>>> Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What on earth do
>>> you think that spam acrually IS?
>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>
> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>
> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or
> something, it is not.

TNP’s been consistently posting under the same identity since, hmm, the
1990s I think? I think I’d call it a nom de plume.

At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
devices seems on topic here to me.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:09 UTC

On 11/08/2023 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
>> is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups?
>> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>
> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>
No-one could possibly be called Jörg Lorenz.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:14 UTC

On 11/08/2023 23:03, Pancho wrote:
> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry Pis
>>> is spam, in  linux and raspberry  Pi newsgroups?
>>> What on earth do you think that spam acrually IS?
>>
>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>
> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>
> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or something,
> it is not.

I have been using nyms since before the usenet was in the internet. Why?
Because I realised back in the 1980s that employers can peer into your
private discussions, and I didn't like it. I lost a job through not
being religious enough once.
What I have to say is what I have to say, regardless of whether it can
be connected to who I am as far as the electoral register, the bank and
the taxman are concerned.
There are some deeply weird and disturbed people on the internet as well
as elsewhere. I don't want my house set on fire or my tyres slashed any
more than already.
If you don't like it, just kill file me and STFU.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:19 UTC

On 12/08/2023 08:43, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> writes:
>> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry
>>>> Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What on earth do
>>>> you think that spam acrually IS?
>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>
>> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>>
>> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or
>> something, it is not.
>
> TNP’s been consistently posting under the same identity since, hmm, the
> 1990s I think? I think I’d call it a nom de plume.
>
It was earlier than that actually Richard. Before we met. It was pretty
much my 'social media' identity from the word go.

Curiously my experiences with Usenet absolutely put me off any
involvement with twitter or facebook.

> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
> devices seems on topic here to me.
>
I think so, It was something I didn't know the full answer to, and
judging by the responses, the same was true of others. Everyone had a
bit of the picture, but the whole practical issue with respect to using
PIs was not available. I tried to summarise what everyone had
contributed into the salient issues.

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:10 UTC

Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@Proton.Me> writes:
>> On 8/11/23 22:33, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 23:07 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>>> Oh? You think that unsolicited information about Linux and rasberry
>>>> Pis is spam, in linux and raspberry Pi newsgroups? What on earth do
>>>> you think that spam acrually IS?
>>> Postings from anonymous Trolls with fake identities.
>>
>> When is an identity real, and when is it fake?
>>
>> Surely it is only fake if it is pretending to be someone, or
>> something, it is not.
>
> TNP’s been consistently posting under the same identity since, hmm, the
> 1990s I think? I think I’d call it a nom de plume.
>
> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
> devices seems on topic here to me.

This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
particular.

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:55 UTC

On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:

>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>
> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
> particular.
>
If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi, and since all PIs other than the
Pico run off primarily an SD card, and primarily run Linux, it is of
extreme relevance to them.

It also touches on aspects of the Linux operating system - its logging,
and its file system behaviour, and its file cacheing, that are of
considerable interest to people who may not appreciate how deeply these
affect its performance.

Of course if you simply want to gaze at a glass terminal and pretend you
are back in the days of a PDP11, it's of no interest to you at all.

But don't judge everyone else by your own standards

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:48 UTC

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:10:50 +0200
Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
> particular.

This group is about the Raspberry Pi range of SBCs almost all of
which use SD cards for primary storage and far from all of which run Linux.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:09 UTC

Am 12.08.23 um 11:48 schrieb Ahem A Rivet's Shot:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:10:50 +0200
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>
>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>> particular.
>
> This group is about the Raspberry Pi range of SBCs almost all of
> which use SD cards for primary storage and far from all of which run Linux.

comp.os.linux.misc

Stop this X-posting! Get it?

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=6957&group=comp.sys.raspberry-pi#6957

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:11:10 +0200
Organization: Camembert Normand au Lait Cru
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:11 UTC

Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>
>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>
>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>> particular.
>>
> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,

comp.os.linux.misc

Stop this X-posting! Get it?

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub7mo4$17pmd$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:26:12 +0100
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 by: Pancho - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:26 UTC

On 12/08/2023 11:11, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 11:55 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>> On 12/08/2023 10:10, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 12.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
>>
>>>> At any rate, chatter about the longevity characteristics of storage
>>>> devices seems on topic here to me.
>>>
>>> This is a general hardware question and not of any relevance to Linux in
>>> particular.
>>>
>> If you look at the headers, assuming you can read, you will see that its
>> cross posted to comp.sys.raspberry-pi,
>
> comp.os.linux.misc
>
> Stop this X-posting! Get it?
>
>

Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.

I'm interested.

If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
that isn't on topic.

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub7nkr$bgb$1@solani.org>

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:41:31 +0200
Organization: Camembert Normand au Lait Cru
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:41 UTC

Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>
> I'm interested.
>
> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
> that isn't on topic.

Discussions with fake identities are futile.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub7nud$bgb$2@solani.org>

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Jörg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:46:37 +0200
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 by: Jörg Lorenz - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:46 UTC

Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>
>> I'm interested.
>>
>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>> that isn't on topic.
>
> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
anonymous people.

--
Alea iacta est

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub7o1o$17pmd$3@dont-email.me>

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:48:24 +0100
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 by: Pancho - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:48 UTC

On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>
>>> I'm interested.
>>>
>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>> that isn't on topic.
>>
>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>
> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
> anonymous people.
>

Why are you talking to me?

Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.

<ub7oqh$1a037$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: A bit more on SD and SSD...wear characteristics.
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:01:37 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sat, 12 Aug 2023 11:01 UTC

On 12/08/2023 11:46, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 12.08.23 um 12:41 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
>> Am 12.08.23 um 12:26 schrieb Pancho:
>>> Looking at previous postings, it seems about average "on topic" for
>>> comp.os.linux.misc, it is 100% on topic for comp.sys.raspberry-pi.
>>>
>>> I'm interested.
>>>
>>> If you want to criticise, there is loads of other shit that we discuss
>>> that isn't on topic.
>>
>> Discussions with fake identities are futile.
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>
> Before and after Covid I have no intention to talk to masked and
> anonymous people.
>

Well why don't you STFU then?
You have no way of knowing who here is using their real name, or even if
they have a real name. Many people have more than one name they commonly
use.

As for publishing a real email address, you must be bonkers. I have
enough spam as it is.

--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

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