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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: Printing to PDF

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Printing to PDFMajorLanGod
+- Re: Printing to PDFBig Al
+- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
+- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
`* Re: Printing to PDFStan Brown
 +* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
 |`* Re: Printing to PDFAnt
 | `* Re: Printing to PDFknuttle
 |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
 |   `- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
 +* Re: Printing to PDFknuttle
 |+- Re: Printing to PDFMajorLanGod
 |+- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
 |`- Re: Printing to PDFStan Brown
 `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
  `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
   `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
    `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
     `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
      `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       +* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       |`* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | +* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |`* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | | +- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | | `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       | |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |   +- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       | |   `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | |    `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |     `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | |      `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |       `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       |   `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
        +* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
        |`- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
        `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne

Pages:12
Re: Printing to PDF

<XnsAFBF93F3F54BFlonelydad58.gmail.co@85.12.62.225>

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
From: lonelyda...@gmail.com (MajorLanGod)
Organization: Me, Myself & I, Inc
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 by: MajorLanGod - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 20:32 UTC

I do most of my grocery shopping online, and keep a copy of my orders 'as
sent' and 'as received'. I had some free time yesterday so I decided to
test some of the things that had bean discussed in that thread recently.

I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
be using from now on.

Re: Printing to PDF

<tu5krp$2ec6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Bea...@invalid.com (Big Al)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 16:10:17 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Big Al - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 21:10 UTC

On 3/6/23 15:32, this is what MajorLanGod wrote:
> I do most of my grocery shopping online, and keep a copy of my orders 'as
> sent' and 'as received'. I had some free time yesterday so I decided to
> test some of the things that had bean discussed in that thread recently.
>
> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
> be using from now on.I like PDFCreator.
https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator
--
Al

Re: Printing to PDF

<KYsNL.1814120$GNG9.180134@fx18.iad>

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 21:31 UTC

On 2023-03-06 15:32, MajorLanGod wrote:
> I do most of my grocery shopping online, and keep a copy of my orders 'as
> sent' and 'as received'. I had some free time yesterday so I decided to
> test some of the things that had bean discussed in that thread recently.
>
> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will

Wow milli-bits. That is very compact. ;-)

> be using from now on.

This 100 MB number is absurd. 1 GB? Wonkers

Mac Word. 2 page Word doc with a complex table on 2nd page (pasted from
excel).

Printed to PDF using the system print (which includes print to PDF).

91 KB.

My cell phone bill, sent by them: 8 pages, colour, tons of
detail/graphics: 271 KB.

Hydro: 3 pages. Dense stuff, lots of detail and graphics:

71 KB.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

<tu5m9t$2mjr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2023 16:34:53 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul - Mon, 6 Mar 2023 21:34 UTC

On 3/6/2023 3:32 PM, MajorLanGod wrote:
> I do most of my grocery shopping online, and keep a copy of my orders 'as
> sent' and 'as received'. I had some free time yesterday so I decided to
> test some of the things that had bean discussed in that thread recently.
>
> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
> be using from now on.
>

Well, it's actually a race. There can be big image files stuffed into
the PDF that bloat it. But what surprised me, was how big and clumsy
the Type42 font definitions are. They're huge.

Any tool which has the capability to convert one sorry-ass font
implementation, into a proper font implementation, that is
guaranteed to save space.

You know, there was a time, when font calls were like three fucking
lines and that was it. Oh, to be back in those days again. Now, fonts
are delivered in the bucket of a backhoe. The reason the font definition
could be so short back then, is you didn't put the actual font in the
file. The destination computer coughed up the font (Adobe Type Manager ATM).
And the font did not need to be subsetted (where only the necessary letters
are stored in the font matrix). Modern documents use a subsetted font,
which means, even when a "proper" definition is done, it's ruined
by the need to "sparsify" the font table.

This command, converts binary PDF to ascii PDF. You can open
the output.pdf as a text file (like in Notepad, if the file is
small enough). This is how I take note of how many object
calls there are in a PDF. The output.pdf still loads in Acrobat Reader,
but it will be at least twice as big as input.pdf. This command is
for *analysis*, not printing. It makes the format of the
file, slightly more human-readable.

mutool convert -F pdf -O decompress,clean -o output.pdf input.pdf

This command, converts the file into its component parts. The Type42
fonts don't seem to extract.

mutool extract input.pdf # Do this in a separate folder, because there
# can be a lot of files created by this.

I'm using 1.19.0 at the moment.

https://mupdf.com/releases/index.html

mupdf-1.19.0-windows.zip

https://mupdf.com/downloads/archive/mupdf-1.19.0-windows.zip

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

<MPG.3e70ef15daa55c3799008c@news.individual.net>

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800
Organization: Oak Road Systems
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 by: Stan Brown - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:50 UTC

On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
> be using from now on.
>

1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Re: Printing to PDF

<6AINL.1822354$GNG9.824371@fx18.iad>

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 by: Alan Browne - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:17 UTC

On 2023-03-07 09:50, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>> be using from now on.
>>
>
> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.

9MB is ridiculously bad. I'm getting complex invoices from providers, 8
pages long, with tons of detail and colour graphics all in under 300KB.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

<tu7lsb$ev1e$1@dont-email.me>

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From: keith_nu...@yahoo.com (knuttle)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:39:54 -0500
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 by: knuttle - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 15:39 UTC

On 3/7/2023 9:50 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>> be using from now on.
>>
>
> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>
Even 9 MB seems high. I have a 169 letter size page, single spaced file
that takes 2.5MB. There are no images just text.

I have several other PDF documents with a similar number of pages and a
similar file sizes.

I use CutePDFwrite, SourceForge's PDF Creator, and the PDF create that
is a modual in Wordperfect to create my PDF files.

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 16:35 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>> be using from now on.
>>
>
>1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.

Out of curiosity, I just went to WordPerfect, found an old three-page
letter with two proportional fonts and one B&W graphic. I "printed"
it twice:

Microsoft Print to PDF - 195KB
PDF24 - 63KB

Re: Printing to PDF

<9nekdjxn3o.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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 by: Carlos E.R. - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:08 UTC

On 2023-03-07 17:35, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>> be using from now on.
>>>
>>
>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>
>
> Out of curiosity, I just went to WordPerfect, found an old three-page
> letter with two proportional fonts and one B&W graphic. I "printed"
> it twice:
>
> Microsoft Print to PDF - 195KB
> PDF24 - 63KB

You should check the output to verify what fonts the files are actually
using and compare that list with the original text. And then, are the
fonts embedded or assumed to be on the destination system.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

<XnsAFC089F622B20lonelydad58.gmail.co@85.12.62.225>

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
From: lonelyda...@gmail.com (MajorLanGod)
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 by: MajorLanGod - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:33 UTC

knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:tu7lsb$ev1e$1@dont-email.me:

> On 3/7/2023 9:50 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my
>>> files were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad
>>> and looked at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the
>>> entire TEXT document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as
>>> 'Plain PDF' the size dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say,
>>> I know what option I will be using from now on.
>>>
>>
>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>
> Even 9 MB seems high. I have a 169 letter size page, single spaced
> file that takes 2.5MB. There are no images just text.
>
> I have several other PDF documents with a similar number of pages and
> a similar file sizes.
>
> I use CutePDFwrite, SourceForge's PDF Creator, and the PDF create that
> is a modual in Wordperfect to create my PDF files.
>
OK, I was too lzy to go back and look at the exact numbers. The file I
tested dropped from 735mb to 106mb, which is still a significant amount.

Re: Printing to PDF

<qibf0i1r7a80nk9odiv1c76gqvriinn3nl@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 14:38:48 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 21:38 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:08:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-03-07 17:35, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800, Stan Brown
>> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>
>>
>> Out of curiosity, I just went to WordPerfect, found an old three-page
>> letter with two proportional fonts and one B&W graphic. I "printed"
>> it twice:
>>
>> Microsoft Print to PDF - 195KB
>> PDF24 - 63KB
>
>You should check the output to verify what fonts the files are actually
>using and compare that list with the original text.

They look the same. That's all the checking I want to do. I was only
mildly interested in seeing what the size difference was between the
two "printers."

>And then, are the
>fonts embedded or assumed to be on the destination system.

Don't know and don't care.

Re: Printing to PDF

<05pkdjxaqf.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 23:06:56 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 22:06 UTC

On 2023-03-07 22:38, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:08:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-03-07 17:35, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>>
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity, I just went to WordPerfect, found an old three-page
>>> letter with two proportional fonts and one B&W graphic. I "printed"
>>> it twice:
>>>
>>> Microsoft Print to PDF - 195KB
>>> PDF24 - 63KB
>>
>> You should check the output to verify what fonts the files are actually
>> using and compare that list with the original text.
>
> They look the same. That's all the checking I want to do. I was only
> mildly interested in seeing what the size difference was between the
> two "printers."
>
>
>
>> And then, are the
>> fonts embedded or assumed to be on the destination system.
>
>
> Don't know and don't care.

Then you don't know what you are missing...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Ant - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 22:47 UTC

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-03-07 09:50, Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
> >> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
> >> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
> >> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
> >> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
> >> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
> >> be using from now on.
> >>
> >
> > 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
> > And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
> > 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.

> 9MB is ridiculously bad. I'm getting complex invoices from providers, 8
> pages long, with tons of detail and colour graphics all in under 300KB.

How's the quality when zoomed in though?
--
"For by [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." --Colossians 1:16. Finally, the warm sun is back again, but it's playing peek a boo and won't fully come out of its cloud closet.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Re: Printing to PDF

<hohf0ils4ti10u35sc9eicej4mjp9i6rt5@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 7 Mar 2023 23:23 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 23:06:56 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-03-07 22:38, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:08:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 17:35, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 06:50:32 -0800, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Out of curiosity, I just went to WordPerfect, found an old three-page
>>>> letter with two proportional fonts and one B&W graphic. I "printed"
>>>> it twice:
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft Print to PDF - 195KB
>>>> PDF24 - 63KB
>>>
>>> You should check the output to verify what fonts the files are actually
>>> using and compare that list with the original text.
>>
>> They look the same. That's all the checking I want to do. I was only
>> mildly interested in seeing what the size difference was between the
>> two "printers."
>>
>>
>>
>>> And then, are the
>>> fonts embedded or assumed to be on the destination system.
>>
>>
>> Don't know and don't care.
>
>Then you don't know what you are missing...

Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
nothing.

Re: Printing to PDF

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:05:31 -0500
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 by: knuttle - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 00:05 UTC

On 3/7/2023 5:47 PM, Ant wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-03-07 09:50, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>
>> 9MB is ridiculously bad. I'm getting complex invoices from providers, 8
>> pages long, with tons of detail and colour graphics all in under 300KB.
>
> How's the quality when zoomed in though?
I previously said I had several 157 page documents and that were
contained with in a 2.5 MB file.

Using Adobe Reader, I zoomed to 6400%, and still had clear will formed
characters with no blur. These are not images converted to PDF files
but truly printed text documents.

The quality of the text in images is depended on the resolution of the
original image.

Re: Printing to PDF

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 00:13 UTC

On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:

> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
> nothing.

One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.

-It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
-It's how I send quotations and proposals.
-It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
(Business and personal).

etc.

So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 01:52 UTC

On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>> nothing.
>
> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>
> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
> (Business and personal).
>
> etc.
>
> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.

In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export or
save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.

The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by
just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The
application can optimize for that.

But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and
vector graphics and fonts.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 02:05 UTC

On 3/7/2023 10:39 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 9:50 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>> be using from now on.
>>>
>>
>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>
> Even 9 MB seems high.  I have a 169 letter size page, single spaced file that takes 2.5MB.  There are no images just text.
>
> I have several other PDF documents with a similar number of pages and a similar file sizes.
>
> I use CutePDFwrite, SourceForge's PDF Creator, and the PDF create that is a modual in Wordperfect to create my PDF files.

The programs wishing to print, are part of the problem.

Web browsers are using poor print engines. They started
out broken. The developers finished the development of them.
The browser makers decided to switch engines or have more than
one engine inside the browser. It's hard to keep track of which one
of these makes poor quality output.

For example, on a test page (too hard to use for benching because
content is animated), the first two pages were rendered as bitmaps
with no real fonts. On the last page of the document, the browser
"breaks down" and emits one line of real font characters and embeds
small images from the web content, as if it was composing a real
print page. Why was the browser not consistent, from end to end
in the print. Who knows :-/ The first two pages, really bloated
out the output.

LibreOffice tends to share the same engines. (It was using
Cairo when Firefox was using Cairo.) I don't know if the
other names are Skia and Pango, or what they are.

What we need to compare to, is some of the older applications
that haven't been "ruined by FOSS".

Maybe a Wordpad print would be interesting.

Benchmark print job (offered as a bench, in a previous thread)

https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html

1) Load URL in LibreOffice Writer 6.3.3 [LibreOffice_6.3.3_Win_x64.msi]
2) Save as .docx (Wordpad W10 can read some of it)
3) Wordpad - PDF Creator printer [PDFCreator-5_0_3-Setup.exe]
wordpad.prn Level 3 Postscript 7,528,205 bytes Type42, 2 fonts per page, 27 pages
4) Ghostscript 9.53.3 ps2pdf13 wordpad.prn wordpad.gs.pdf [gs9533w64.exe]
wordpad.gs.pdf 119,255 bytes

The fonts still have an impact, but not nearly as bad.

extracting font-0008.ttf 48K (SegoeUI?)
extracting font-0010.cff 5K Helvetica Bold
extracting font-0012.cff 6K Helvetica
extracting font-0014.ttf 31K (SegoeUISymbol?)
extracting font-0120.cff 4K Helvetica Oblique

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 04:20 UTC

On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>> nothing.
>>
>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents
>> electronically.
>>
>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>> (Business and personal).
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>
> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export or
> save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>
> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by
> just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The
> application can optimize for that.
>
> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and
> vector graphics and fonts.

I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes reported.
Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far smaller.
I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I receive
from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).

So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many
MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:03 UTC

On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>>>
>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>> (Business and personal).
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>
>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>>
>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The application can optimize for that.
>>
>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and vector graphics and fonts.
>
> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes reported.
> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far smaller.
> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>
> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>

Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.

https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html

Wordpad+PDFCreator 27 pages 119,255 bytes (different margin size)

Original source (Web Page Complete) 71KB
Save as PDF from LO 98KB
Save as Microsoft XPS 350KB
Print to Postscript, ps2pdf13 171KB

Part of the problem, is what the tool itself, uses
to create the "impression" to be printed. It is
probably injecting fonts for each of 23 pages.

Seamonkey to MS PrintToPDF 498KB Tabloid 15 pages
507KB Letter 23 pages

*******

The documents that are 100MB, these

1) Come from a browser.
2) Each page is rendered as a pixmap at some DPI resolution.
3) Alternately, may use a Type42 font, injected on each and every page,
multiple fonts potentially on one page.

But to carry out tests with color images, we need content
that stands still and is not animated, so the results can
be reproduced by everyone.

The Yahoo News page, is one of the least reproducible pages
going, so would be an extra-poor candidate for a color print test.
It has multiple flaws, as far as consistency is concerned.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:13 UTC

On 3/7/2023 7:05 PM, knuttle wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 5:47 PM, Ant wrote:
>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 09:50, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of my files
>>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and looked
>>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF' the size
>>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option I will
>>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>
>>> 9MB is ridiculously bad.  I'm getting complex invoices from providers, 8
>>> pages long, with tons of detail and colour graphics all in under 300KB.
>>
>> How's the quality when zoomed in though?
> I previously said I had several 157 page documents and that were contained with in a 2.5 MB file.
>
> Using Adobe Reader, I zoomed to 6400%, and still had clear will formed characters with no blur.  These are not images converted to PDF files but truly printed text documents.
>
> The quality of the text in images is depended on the resolution of the original image.

For a PDF document, if a TrueType font, or any font with
mathematically defined (spline curve or quadratic curve) glyphs,
as you zoom in, the "math" allows infinite resolution and no jaggies.
Jaggies might result, if the engine doing the job, had some
limit on its floating point representations.

If a bitmap font was used, then it starts to look bad when you zoom in.
Over the decades, we've had our share of bitmap fonts. Back when you
were using 24x80 terminals and there were no "high resolution" graphics
screens, those were bitmap (matrix) fonts.

If a web browser prints out, and it stores the entire page as a bitmap at
a fixed resolution, when you zoom in that far, you can see the jaggies
because it is an image. And no math with spline curves, redraws the
edges of letters to perfection.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 11:22 UTC

On 2023-03-08 08:13, Paul wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 7:05 PM, knuttle wrote:
>> On 3/7/2023 5:47 PM, Ant wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-07 09:50, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 20:32:39 GMT, MajorLanGod wrote:
>>>>>> I had been using 'Microsoft Print to Pdf', and as posted most of
>>>>>> my files
>>>>>> were around 1gb. When I loaded one of those files into Notepad and
>>>>>> looked
>>>>>> at it, it looks like Microsoft Print to PDF rendered the entire TEXT
>>>>>> document as a bitmap. When I resaved the receipt as 'Plain PDF'
>>>>>> the size
>>>>>> dropped to a litte over 100mb. Needless to say, I know what option
>>>>>> I will
>>>>>> be using from now on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
>>>>> And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
>>>>> 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
>>>
>>>> 9MB is ridiculously bad.  I'm getting complex invoices from
>>>> providers, 8
>>>> pages long, with tons of detail and colour graphics all in under 300KB.
>>>
>>> How's the quality when zoomed in though?
>> I previously said I had several 157 page documents and that were
>> contained with in a 2.5 MB file.
>>
>> Using Adobe Reader, I zoomed to 6400%, and still had clear will formed
>> characters with no blur.  These are not images converted to PDF files
>> but truly printed text documents.
>>
>> The quality of the text in images is depended on the resolution of the
>> original image.
>
> For a PDF document, if a TrueType font, or any font with
> mathematically defined (spline curve or quadratic curve) glyphs,
> as you zoom in, the "math" allows infinite resolution and no jaggies.
> Jaggies might result, if the engine doing the job, had some
> limit on its floating point representations.
>
> If a bitmap font was used, then it starts to look bad when you zoom in.
> Over the decades, we've had our share of bitmap fonts. Back when you
> were using 24x80 terminals and there were no "high resolution" graphics
> screens, those were bitmap (matrix) fonts.
>
> If a web browser prints out, and it stores the entire page as a bitmap at
> a fixed resolution, when you zoom in that far, you can see the jaggies
> because it is an image. And no math with spline curves, redraws the
> edges of letters to perfection.

Right.

The thing is, if you are "printing" then it may be faster to send a
bitmap to the printer at its native resolution. That PDF can be saved
instead, but it is, probably, optimized for printing.

Whereas saving or exporting to PDF should optimize for rendering lines,
curves, shapes, fonts, etc, at destination instead. Saves disk space
(needs more CPU power) and can be rendered at any resolution.

That would explain the sizes differences observed. Specially in Windows
if they use the GDI method.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

<7f8mdjxq0u.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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In-Reply-To: <62UNL.64430$Kqu2.49498@fx01.iad>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 11:34 UTC

On 2023-03-08 05:20, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents
>>> electronically.
>>>
>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>> (Business and personal).
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>
>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export
>> or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>>
>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by
>> just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The
>> application can optimize for that.
>>
>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and
>> vector graphics and fonts.
>
> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes reported.
> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far smaller.
> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I receive
> from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).

I get invoices of 700K. I see one utility most recent invoice has gone
from 800K to 1.3M. Another utility stays at 180K tops. I generate
invoices that go from 100K to 800K, depending on the images I have to
include.

I insert images captured from other PDFs, which means a bitmaps at
screen resolution. I don't know if it would be possible to capture the
original font work instead, I have not seen it.

>
> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many
> MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.

Bitmaps for printing.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:16:26 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:16 UTC

On 3/8/2023 6:34 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>
> Bitmaps for printing.
>

What bothers me, is the implementation is inept.

Page 1 and 2 are bitmaps. Fine.

Page 4 switched back to using a real font for the title bar,
and inserted sub-page sized images at the end. So the browser
gave up on doing full-page bitmaps.

Why did it do that ?

You would expect if this was some kind of philosophical statement,
all pages would be composed exactly the same way.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:13:01 -0800
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 by: Stan Brown - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:13 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:39:54 -0500, knuttle wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 9:50 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> > [quoted text muted]
> > 1 gigabyte? Really? Even for Microsoft Print to PDF that seems high.
> > And reducing to a hundred megabytes? I thought I was doing badly with
> > 9 MB for a four-page monospaced typed letter.
> >
> Even 9 MB seems high.
>

Of course it does. It's why I no longer use Microsoft Print to PDF,
as I said in the thread I started about MS-PtP just a week ago.

But that's a hundred years ago in Usenet time.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

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