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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: Printing to PDF

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Printing to PDFMajorLanGod
+- Re: Printing to PDFBig Al
+- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
+- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
`* Re: Printing to PDFStan Brown
 +* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
 |`* Re: Printing to PDFAnt
 | `* Re: Printing to PDFknuttle
 |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
 |   `- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
 +* Re: Printing to PDFknuttle
 |+- Re: Printing to PDFMajorLanGod
 |+- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
 |`- Re: Printing to PDFStan Brown
 `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
  `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
   `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
    `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
     `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
      `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       +* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       |`* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | +* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |`* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | | +- Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | | `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       | |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |   +- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       | |   `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | |    `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |     `* Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | |      `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       | |       `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       | `* Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
       |  `* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
       |   `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne
       `* Re: Printing to PDFKen Blake
        +* Re: Printing to PDFPaul
        |`- Re: Printing to PDFCarlos E.R.
        `- Re: Printing to PDFAlan Browne

Pages:12
Re: Printing to PDF

<nf9h0ihihkv2vppabol32t5d09gatj9qvn@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 08:26:16 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:26 UTC

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:13:08 -0500, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

>On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>> nothing.
>
>One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>
>-It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>-It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>-It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>(Business and personal).

I do none of these.

>etc.

>So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.

Yes, I understand, and agree. Many people create pdf files for those,
and other, reasons. But I was replying to Carlos's saying "Then you
don't know what **you** are missing"

As said " **I** almost never 'print to pdf.' "

It's amazing how often an argument (or at least a disagreement) can
start over next to nothing. I'll repeat once more why I entered this
thread: "I was only mildly interested in seeing what the size
difference was between the two "printers." Because of that mild
interest, I posted my results with the thought that others here might
be interested in someone else's experience. That's all. I had nothing
else in mind--certainly not whether I should create pdf files. End of
thread, as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Printing to PDF

<tuade4$100v3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 11:34:14 -0500
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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 16:34 UTC

On 3/8/2023 10:26 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:13:08 -0500, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>> nothing.
>>
>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>>
>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>> (Business and personal).
>
>
> I do none of these.
>
>
>> etc.
>
>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>
>
> Yes, I understand, and agree. Many people create pdf files for those,
> and other, reasons. But I was replying to Carlos's saying "Then you
> don't know what **you** are missing"
>
> As said " **I** almost never 'print to pdf.' "
>
> It's amazing how often an argument (or at least a disagreement) can
> start over next to nothing. I'll repeat once more why I entered this
> thread: "I was only mildly interested in seeing what the size
> difference was between the two "printers." Because of that mild
> interest, I posted my results with the thought that others here might
> be interested in someone else's experience. That's all. I had nothing
> else in mind--certainly not whether I should create pdf files. End of
> thread, as far as I'm concerned.
>

When someone else has a workflow, you should respect that.

They may still need help with it. And you can provide that help.

They don't always need a comparison to your situation. I'm not
invoicing anyone, but I can understand the operation of invoicing
and I can try to make it better.

I don't think it's acceptable for any computer company
to make shitty output on purpose. Especially when "mounds"
of technology exist to do it right. I don't know how much of
this is some sort of fight with Adobe, and how much of this
is some legal detail about font handling. You'll notice some
PDF reading, being removed from browsers, and the assent of
some Adobe rent-seeking behavior in their Acrobat Reader. Whether
lawyers are behind this, who knows.

ATM (Adobe Type Manager) used to be included as part of the OS.
It required a lot of patches during Windows Update, and must
have been a major pain in the ass for Microsoft. Prior to that,
we could buy private copies, and I think there was a freebie of
it included for Acrobat usage. It could synthesize fonts
(make fonts you don't own, out of Sans and Serif). But I
don't know what the legal posture of all this was, and whether
it was defensible.

PDF is an archival/distribution format. In addition, it accepts dual-representation.
You can store a Word-compatible chunk inside the file, such that a
recipient can actually open the original file if they want. But if
they don't want to do that (and not every author dreams of giving
away source), the PDF reader will just ignore the extraneous info.
I've not run into anyone in the wild, using that capability
(Word-in-PDF).

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:17 UTC

On 2023-03-08 02:03, Paul wrote:
> On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents
>>>> electronically.
>>>>
>>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>>> (Business and personal).
>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>>
>>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export
>>> or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>>>
>>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by
>>> just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The
>>> application can optimize for that.
>>>
>>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and
>>> vector graphics and fonts.
>>
>> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes
>> reported.
>> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far
>> smaller.
>> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I
>> receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>>
>> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many
>> MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>>
>
> Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.
>
> https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html

Agreed. So I printed that to file from Google Chrome via the Mac PDF
printer and got 174KB. Which seems nominal.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s933dlx0ep39tb7/Alan%27s-checklist.docx

(Download it and print to pdf, do not print it from the Dropbox site).

Is a short Word doc.
3 pages with a simple graphic, no colour.

Here it PDF's to 82 KB

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:20 UTC

On 2023-03-08 07:16, Paul wrote:
>
>
> Why did it do that ?
>
> You would expect if this was some kind of philosophical statement,
> all pages would be composed exactly the same way.

As the release date approaches they ship what "works" not what works
properly.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

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 by: Alan Browne - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 17:24 UTC

On 2023-03-08 10:26, Ken Blake wrote:

> else in mind--certainly not whether I should create pdf files. End of
> thread, as far as I'm concerned.

.... I wonder why you didn't abandon it much earlier ...

Farewell ...

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

<tualmd$11r0a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 13:55:12 -0500
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 by: Paul - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 18:55 UTC

On 3/8/2023 12:17 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 02:03, Paul wrote:
>> On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>>>>>
>>>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>>>> (Business and personal).
>>>>>
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>>>
>>>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The application can optimize for that.
>>>>
>>>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and vector graphics and fonts.
>>>
>>> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes reported.
>>> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far smaller.
>>> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>>>
>>> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>>>
>>
>> Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.
>>
>> https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html
>
> Agreed.  So I printed that to file from Google Chrome via the Mac PDF printer and got 174KB.  Which seems nominal.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/s933dlx0ep39tb7/Alan%27s-checklist.docx
>
> (Download it and print to pdf, do not print it from the Dropbox site).
>
> Is a short Word doc.
> 3 pages with a simple graphic, no colour.
>
> Here it PDF's to 82 KB
>
>

My best "path" for this one, would be LibreOffice save as PDF. 93.5K

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/MTLPZy5d/alan-test-doc.gif

The copy of LO Writer is on the other machine, and I'm all the
time moving stuff around between shares.

You can also open a URL in LO Writer, but it's not exactly
all that "compatible". That only works for the
simplest of objects. If you fed it the Yahoo News
page, it would not end well. Even browsers don't pass
that test.

But at least this conversion, there weren't any extra steps.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

<bm7ndjxpe4.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 21:27:23 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <Qq3OL.1011956$8_id.1006166@fx09.iad>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:27 UTC

On 2023-03-08 18:17, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 02:03, Paul wrote:
>> On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents
>>>>> electronically.
>>>>>
>>>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>>>> (Business and personal).
>>>>>
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>>>
>>>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to
>>>> export or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal
>>>> files.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by
>>>> just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The
>>>> application can optimize for that.
>>>>
>>>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and
>>>> vector graphics and fonts.
>>>
>>> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes
>>> reported.
>>> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far
>>> smaller.
>>> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I
>>> receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>>>
>>> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting
>>> many MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>>>
>>
>> Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.
>>
>> https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html
>
> Agreed.  So I printed that to file from Google Chrome via the Mac PDF
> printer and got 174KB.  Which seems nominal.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/s933dlx0ep39tb7/Alan%27s-checklist.docx
>
> (Download it and print to pdf, do not print it from the Dropbox site).
>
> Is a short Word doc.
> 3 pages with a simple graphic, no colour.
>
> Here it PDF's to 82 KB

Ok, trying with LibreOffice in Linux.

Export to PDF; using jpeg compression for images at 85%, and 300DPI.

And print to PDF.

cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> ls -lh Alan\'s-checklist*
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 77K Mar 8 21:20 Alan's-checklist (print).pdf
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 1,9M Mar 8 21:15 Alan's-checklist.docx
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 104K Mar 8 21:18 Alan's-checklist.pdf
cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>

cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist\
\(print\).pdf
Title: Alan's-checklist.docx
Creator: LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
Producer: LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
CreationDate: Wed Mar 8 21:20:27 2023 CET
Custom Metadata: no
Metadata Stream: no
Tagged: no
UserProperties: no
Suspects: no
Form: none
JavaScript: no
Pages: 3
Encrypted: no
Page size: 612 x 792 pts (letter)
Page rot: 0
File size: 78293 bytes
Optimized: no
PDF version: 1.4
cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist.pdf
Author: Alan Browne
Creator: Writer
Producer: LibreOffice 7.4
CreationDate: Wed Mar 8 21:18:52 2023 CET
Custom Metadata: no
Metadata Stream: yes
Tagged: yes
UserProperties: no
Suspects: no
Form: none
JavaScript: no
Pages: 3
Encrypted: no
Page size: 612 x 792 pts (letter)
Page rot: 0
File size: 105568 bytes
Optimized: no
PDF version: 1.6
cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>

>
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf
> name type encoding emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 19 0
> CAAAAA+Carlito TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 29 0
> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 24 0
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts Alan\'s-checklist.pdf
> name type encoding emb sub uni object ID
> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 123 0
> CAAAAA+Carlito TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 133 0
> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic TrueType WinAnsi yes yes yes 128 0
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>

I tried the export choosing 600DPI, and the size is the same as with
300DPI, 104K.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

<lv7ndjxpe4.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 21:32:21 +0100
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <lv7ndjxpe4.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
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In-Reply-To: <tuade4$100v3$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 8 Mar 2023 20:32 UTC

On 2023-03-08 17:34, Paul wrote:
> PDF is an archival/distribution format. In addition, it accepts
> dual-representation.
> You can store a Word-compatible chunk inside the file, such that a
> recipient can actually open the original file if they want. But if
> they don't want to do that (and not every author dreams of giving
> away source), the PDF reader will just ignore the extraneous info.
> I've not run into anyone in the wild, using that capability

It can also include the LibreOffice file.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Printing to PDF

<tuc66l$1cbic$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 03:43:01 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 174
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In-Reply-To: <bm7ndjxpe4.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
 by: Paul - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 08:43 UTC

On 3/8/2023 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 18:17, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-03-08 02:03, Paul wrote:
>>> On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents electronically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>>>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>>>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>>>>> (Business and personal).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>>>>
>>>>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to export or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate optimal files.
>>>>>
>>>>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results by just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer. The application can optimize for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size and vector graphics and fonts.
>>>>
>>>> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes reported.
>>>> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far smaller.
>>>> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>>>>
>>>> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting many MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.
>>>
>>> https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html
>>
>> Agreed.  So I printed that to file from Google Chrome via the Mac PDF printer and got 174KB.  Which seems nominal.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/s933dlx0ep39tb7/Alan%27s-checklist.docx
>>
>> (Download it and print to pdf, do not print it from the Dropbox site).
>>
>> Is a short Word doc.
>> 3 pages with a simple graphic, no colour.
>>
>> Here it PDF's to 82 KB
>
> Ok, trying with LibreOffice in Linux.
>
> Export to PDF; using jpeg compression for images at 85%, and 300DPI.
>
> And print to PDF.
>
>
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> ls -lh Alan\'s-checklist*
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users  77K Mar  8 21:20 Alan's-checklist (print).pdf
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 1,9M Mar  8 21:15 Alan's-checklist.docx
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 104K Mar  8 21:18 Alan's-checklist.pdf
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>
>
>
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf
> Title:           Alan's-checklist.docx
> Creator:         LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
> Producer:        LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
> CreationDate:    Wed Mar  8 21:20:27 2023 CET
> Custom Metadata: no
> Metadata Stream: no
> Tagged:          no
> UserProperties:  no
> Suspects:        no
> Form:            none
> JavaScript:      no
> Pages:           3
> Encrypted:       no
> Page size:       612 x 792 pts (letter)
> Page rot:        0
> File size:       78293 bytes
> Optimized:       no
> PDF version:     1.4
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist.pdf
> Author:          Alan Browne
> Creator:         Writer
> Producer:        LibreOffice 7.4
> CreationDate:    Wed Mar  8 21:18:52 2023 CET
> Custom Metadata: no
> Metadata Stream: yes
> Tagged:          yes
> UserProperties:  no
> Suspects:        no
> Form:            none
> JavaScript:      no
> Pages:           3
> Encrypted:       no
> Page size:       612 x 792 pts (letter)
> Page rot:        0
> File size:       105568 bytes
> Optimized:       no
> PDF version:     1.6
> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>
>
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf name                                 type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold                  TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes     19  0
>> CAAAAA+Carlito                       TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes     29  0
>> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic                TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes     24  0
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts Alan\'s-checklist.pdf name                                 type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>> ------------------------------------ ----------------- ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold                  TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes    123  0
>> CAAAAA+Carlito                       TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes    133  0
>> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic                TrueType          WinAnsi          yes yes yes    128  0
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>
>
> I tried the export choosing 600DPI, and the size is the same as with 300DPI, 104K.
>
>

And when you do a

mutool extract Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf

how many JPEG files do you get in the extraction ?

The source .docx has 732x621 TIFF at 96 dpi. It will likely
appear pixelated whether you select 300 or 600 DPI output.
The quality setting for the image, may affect the storage needed.

My LO is using Lossless compression at the moment. The
mutool extraction for the one image, consists of two images.

Alans-checklist.pdf 95,846 bytes

image-0010.png 732x621 at 24 bit 48,581 bytes 8 bit color
image-0013.png 732x621 at 8 bit 1,654 bytes (an "all-white" image) 8 bit grayscale

And that's because the TIFF in the .docx is 32 bit
and the software assumes 8 bits of that is annotation plane.

When I switch to lossy 85% compression, the extracted image
from the PDF appears to be larger, but who really knows
how mutool is doing this (the images stored in a PDF don't
typically have a file extension notion, they're streams with
properties). At least the PDF (logically) is smaller.

Alans-checklist.pdf 87,057 bytes lossy 85%

image-0010.png 732x621 at 24 bit 88,903 bytes 8 bit color
image-0012.png 732x621 at 8 bit 1,654 bytes (an "all-white" image) 8 bit grayscale

The ancient Acrobat Distiller, had quality settings for 24 bit
and 8 bit images, as separate settings. And that's because the
compression options used for those are different (indexed color
versus full color). A GIF image that had been used in a document,
could be programmed to receive a different treatment than
a 24-bit BMP image.

Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method
used for the source image in the docx. That would save on the insignificant 1,654 byte
thing being present. I've never seen an annotation plane handled this way.
Normally, if it is empty and "white", you just toss the annotation plane and move on.

But we're miles away from the grocery list test case at a gigabyte :-)
There must have been some giant pictures of cabbages in there :-)

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

<n8todjxf4s.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=69603&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#69603

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:41:43 +0100
Lines: 260
Message-ID: <n8todjxf4s.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
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In-Reply-To: <tuc66l$1cbic$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:41 UTC

On 2023-03-09 09:43, Paul wrote:
> On 3/8/2023 3:27 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-08 18:17, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-08 02:03, Paul wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/2023 11:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-07 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-03-08 01:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-03-07 18:23, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I almost never "print to pdf," I know I'm missing almost
>>>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the most practical ways to store and send documents
>>>>>>> electronically.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -It's how I invoice - and very often how I'm invoiced.
>>>>>>> -It's how I send quotations and proposals.
>>>>>>> -It's how I prep my info for the accountant at tax time
>>>>>>> (Business and personal).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, maybe that's not for you, but it's definitely for many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In most cases, it is best if the application has the option to
>>>>>> export or save to pdf, whereas print to PDF doesn't generate
>>>>>> optimal files.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The difference is that when printing, you can get perfect results
>>>>>> by just generating images at the pixel resolution of the printer.
>>>>>> The application can optimize for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But when saving or exporting, there is an interest on small size
>>>>>> and vector graphics and fonts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been reading the thread and I'm astonished at the file sizes
>>>>> reported.
>>>>> Those I generate with the in-OS Mac print to pdf are far, far, far
>>>>> smaller.
>>>>> I gen invoices on the order of 100 - 200 kB ... max! And those I
>>>>> receive from utilities and others are also sub MB (100 - 300 kB).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, not sure what is going on with other posters machines getting
>>>>> many MB files ... 9 .. 100 MB - but it's clearly bloated.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good benchmarks, require samples we can share.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.rsssf.org/tablest/tsjsl2hist.html
>>>
>>> Agreed.  So I printed that to file from Google Chrome via the Mac PDF
>>> printer and got 174KB.  Which seems nominal.
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/s933dlx0ep39tb7/Alan%27s-checklist.docx
>>>
>>> (Download it and print to pdf, do not print it from the Dropbox site).
>>>
>>> Is a short Word doc.
>>> 3 pages with a simple graphic, no colour.
>>>
>>> Here it PDF's to 82 KB
>>
>> Ok, trying with LibreOffice in Linux.
>>
>> Export to PDF; using jpeg compression for images at 85%, and 300DPI.
>>
>> And print to PDF.
>>
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> ls -lh Alan\'s-checklist*
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users  77K Mar  8 21:20 Alan's-checklist (print).pdf
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 1,9M Mar  8 21:15 Alan's-checklist.docx
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 104K Mar  8 21:18 Alan's-checklist.pdf
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>>
>>
>>
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist\
>> \(print\).pdf
>> Title:           Alan's-checklist.docx
>> Creator:         LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
>> Producer:        LibreOffice 7.4.3.2
>> CreationDate:    Wed Mar  8 21:20:27 2023 CET
>> Custom Metadata: no
>> Metadata Stream: no
>> Tagged:          no
>> UserProperties:  no
>> Suspects:        no
>> Form:            none
>> JavaScript:      no
>> Pages:           3
>> Encrypted:       no
>> Page size:       612 x 792 pts (letter)
>> Page rot:        0
>> File size:       78293 bytes
>> Optimized:       no
>> PDF version:     1.4
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdfinfo Alan\'s-checklist.pdf
>> Author:          Alan Browne
>> Creator:         Writer
>> Producer:        LibreOffice 7.4
>> CreationDate:    Wed Mar  8 21:18:52 2023 CET
>> Custom Metadata: no
>> Metadata Stream: yes
>> Tagged:          yes
>> UserProperties:  no
>> Suspects:        no
>> Form:            none
>> JavaScript:      no
>> Pages:           3
>> Encrypted:       no
>> Page size:       612 x 792 pts (letter)
>> Page rot:        0
>> File size:       105568 bytes
>> Optimized:       no
>> PDF version:     1.6
>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts
>>> Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf name
>>> type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>>> ------------------------------------ -----------------
>>> ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>>> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold                  TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes     19  0
>>> CAAAAA+Carlito                       TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes     29  0
>>> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic                TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes     24  0
>>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads> pdffonts
>>> Alan\'s-checklist.pdf name
>>> type              encoding         emb sub uni object ID
>>> ------------------------------------ -----------------
>>> ---------------- --- --- --- ---------
>>> BAAAAA+Carlito-Bold                  TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes    123  0
>>> CAAAAA+Carlito                       TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes    133  0
>>> DAAAAA+Carlito-Italic                TrueType
>>> WinAnsi          yes yes yes    128  0
>>> cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads>
>>
>>
>> I tried the export choosing 600DPI, and the size is the same as with
>> 300DPI, 104K.
>>
>>
>
> And when you do a
>
>    mutool extract Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf
>
> how many JPEG files do you get in the extraction ?

Hum. I didn't know the tool, I am installing it now.

[...]

No jpgs.

cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads/ppp> mutool extract
.../Alan\'s-checklist\ \(print\).pdf
extracting image-0010.png
extracting image-0012.png
extracting font-0017.ttf
extracting font-0022.ttf
extracting font-0027.ttf
cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads/ppp> l
total 132
drwxr-xr-x 2 cer users 113 Mar 9 12:34 ./
drwxr-xr-x 28 cer users 24576 Mar 8 21:27 ../
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 16720 Mar 9 12:34 font-0017.ttf
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 6872 Mar 9 12:34 font-0022.ttf
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 21248 Mar 9 12:34 font-0027.ttf
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 48581 Mar 9 12:34 image-0010.png
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer users 1654 Mar 9 12:34 image-0012.png
cer@Telcontar:~/Download/Firefox_downloads/ppp>

>
> The source .docx  has 732x621 TIFF at 96 dpi. It will likely
> appear pixelated whether you select 300 or 600 DPI output.
> The quality setting for the image, may affect the storage needed.
>
> My LO is using Lossless compression at the moment. The
> mutool extraction for the one image, consists of two images.
>
>    Alans-checklist.pdf                 95,846 bytes
>
>    image-0010.png  732x621 at 24 bit   48,581
> bytes                          8 bit color
>    image-0013.png  732x621 at  8 bit    1,654 bytes (an "all-white"
> image)   8 bit grayscale


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Printing to PDF

<yqlOL.259388$mmyc.114722@fx37.iad>

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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 13:46 UTC

On 2023-03-09 03:43, Paul wrote:

> Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method

I didn't have to do anything to get that size other than use the print
to PDF option. No settings. No adjustments.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

<tucvb2$1gqt1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 10:52:03 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <yqlOL.259388$mmyc.114722@fx37.iad>
 by: Paul - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 15:52 UTC

On 3/9/2023 8:46 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-09 03:43, Paul wrote:
>
>> Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method
>
> I didn't have to do anything to get that size other than use the print to PDF option.  No settings.  No adjustments.
>

Back in your .docx, if you work on your TIFF,
the resultant PDF drops to 77,291 bytes. I don't
know where that TIFF came from, but it's a bit weird.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

<CnqOL.1374847$iS99.1335641@fx16.iad>

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 19:24 UTC

On 2023-03-09 10:52, Paul wrote:
> On 3/9/2023 8:46 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-03-09 03:43, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method
>>
>> I didn't have to do anything to get that size other than use the print
>> to PDF option.  No settings.  No adjustments.
>>
>
> Back in your .docx, if you work on your TIFF,
> the resultant PDF drops to 77,291 bytes. I don't
> know where that TIFF came from, but it's a bit weird.

I'm only on this thread because of the absurd numbers posted in the many
MB pdf files that were produced.

A diff between the 82KB I get and the 77KB you get might have piqued me
in 1995.

Today it's just interesting.

But in a use sense today it's really noise. Esp. if I have to trade
"tinker time" to get that difference.

What's weird about the TIIF?

As to it: I used an ancient copy of Visio under WinXP (in a VM) for that
simple drawing (.vsd). I just (now) fired up WinXP + Visio. It has a
..TIF export in the filesave options. That's likely how I moved it to
Word on the Mac (But I don't recall - that doc is 2017).

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Re: Printing to PDF

<tudopd$1l8h5$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: Printing to PDF
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 by: Paul - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:06 UTC

On 3/9/2023 2:24 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-03-09 10:52, Paul wrote:
>> On 3/9/2023 8:46 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-09 03:43, Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method
>>>
>>> I didn't have to do anything to get that size other than use the print to PDF option.  No settings.  No adjustments.
>>>
>>
>> Back in your .docx, if you work on your TIFF,
>> the resultant PDF drops to 77,291 bytes. I don't
>> know where that TIFF came from, but it's a bit weird.
>
> I'm only on this thread because of the absurd numbers posted in the many MB pdf files that were produced.
>
> A diff between the 82KB I get and the 77KB you get might have piqued me in 1995.
>
> Today it's just interesting.
>
> But in a use sense today it's really noise.  Esp. if I have to trade "tinker time" to get that difference.
>
> What's weird about the TIIF?
>
> As to it: I used an ancient copy of Visio under WinXP (in a VM) for that simple drawing (.vsd).  I just (now) fired up WinXP + Visio.  It has a .TIF export in the filesave options.  That's likely how I moved it to Word on the Mac (But I don't recall - that doc is 2017).
>

Of the tools I used, one complained that the ICC profile was old.
The others did not report an issue.

One tool reported the image had 884 colors. Another tool reported
on the order of 7500 colors. Whether these were side effects of
ICC, I could not tell.

The image is 32 bit, but there's nothing in the annotation plane,
so it could be stored as a 24 bit file without loss of information.
And the number of colors (via color reduction), could be low enough
that the image could be stored as 8 bit indexed without a problem.

Paul

Re: Printing to PDF

<pTtOL.259392$mmyc.151967@fx37.iad>

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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:23:01 -0500
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 by: Alan Browne - Thu, 9 Mar 2023 23:23 UTC

On 2023-03-09 18:06, Paul wrote:
> On 3/9/2023 2:24 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-03-09 10:52, Paul wrote:
>>> On 3/9/2023 8:46 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-09 03:43, Paul wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Alan may be able to get a smaller print, just by altering the method
>>>>
>>>> I didn't have to do anything to get that size other than use the
>>>> print to PDF option.  No settings.  No adjustments.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Back in your .docx, if you work on your TIFF,
>>> the resultant PDF drops to 77,291 bytes. I don't
>>> know where that TIFF came from, but it's a bit weird.
>>
>> I'm only on this thread because of the absurd numbers posted in the
>> many MB pdf files that were produced.
>>
>> A diff between the 82KB I get and the 77KB you get might have piqued
>> me in 1995.
>>
>> Today it's just interesting.
>>
>> But in a use sense today it's really noise.  Esp. if I have to trade
>> "tinker time" to get that difference.
>>
>> What's weird about the TIIF?
>>
>> As to it: I used an ancient copy of Visio under WinXP (in a VM) for
>> that simple drawing (.vsd).  I just (now) fired up WinXP + Visio.  It
>> has a .TIF export in the filesave options.  That's likely how I moved
>> it to Word on the Mac (But I don't recall - that doc is 2017).
>>
>
> Of the tools I used, one complained that the ICC profile was old.
> The others did not report an issue.
>
> One tool reported the image had 884 colors. Another tool reported
> on the order of 7500 colors. Whether these were side effects of
> ICC, I could not tell.
>
> The image is 32 bit, but there's nothing in the annotation plane,
> so it could be stored as a 24 bit file without loss of information.
> And the number of colors (via color reduction), could be low enough
> that the image could be stored as 8 bit indexed without a problem.

All that seems very weird to me as I composed the image and the doc w/o
colour. (I say that ... Visio does do colour so the export may have had
a colour palette in it though unused).

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

Pages:12
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor