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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: Question about Windows 10

SubjectAuthor
* Question about Windows 10Johnny
+* Re: Question about Windows 10Andy Burns
|`* Re: Question about Windows 10Johnny
| `- Re: Question about Windows 10Paul
+* Re: Question about Windows 10Ken Blake
|`- Re: Question about Windows 10Paul
`* Re: Question about Windows 10T
 `* Re: Question about Windows 10Johnny
  `* Re: Question about Windows 10T
   `* Re: Question about Windows 10Johnny
    `- Re: Question about Windows 10T

1
Question about Windows 10

<20230325083009.7ee0530c@mx>

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From: joh...@invalid.net (Johnny)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 08:30:09 -0500
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 by: Johnny - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:30 UTC

I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that likes
Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it

Re: Question about Windows 10

<k88clnF28duU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:52:56 +0000
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In-Reply-To: <20230325083009.7ee0530c@mx>
 by: Andy Burns - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:52 UTC

Johnny wrote:

> I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
> turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that likes
> Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it

Depends, is it a major brand (HP, Lenovo, Dell)? If so, the licence for
Windows could be tied into the BIOS of the machine.

Re: Question about Windows 10

<20230325090116.3d326dc8@mx>

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From: joh...@invalid.net (Johnny)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 09:01:16 -0500
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 by: Johnny - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:01 UTC

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:52:56 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Johnny wrote:
>
> > I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
> > turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that
> > likes Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it
>
> Depends, is it a major brand (HP, Lenovo, Dell)? If so, the licence
> for Windows could be tied into the BIOS of the machine.
>

It's a Dell Optiplex sff 7050.

Re: Question about Windows 10

<ms1u1id2bco7ro7gqhgjba1eefv1su96on@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 07:42:27 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:42 UTC

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 08:30:09 -0500, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

>
>
>I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
>turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that likes
>Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it

Can you? Yes.

May it be used by that other person? Almost certainly not. If the
computer came with Windows, it's almost certainly an OEM copy (Dell,
HP, etc.) and if so the Windows license is tied to the first computer
it's installed on. It may never be moved to another.

Re: Question about Windows 10

<tvn78c$28ipv$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:24:46 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <20230325090116.3d326dc8@mx>
 by: Paul - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:24 UTC

On 3/25/2023 10:01 AM, Johnny wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:52:56 +0000
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Johnny wrote:
>>
>>> I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
>>> turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that
>>> likes Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it
>>
>> Depends, is it a major brand (HP, Lenovo, Dell)? If so, the licence
>> for Windows could be tied into the BIOS of the machine.
>>
>
> It's a Dell Optiplex sff 7050.
>

Then the license key is a Refurbisher key, and tied to the
machine in some way.

You don't resell a Dell (apparently) like a home user would
resell a machine.

You go to some Microsoft web page. You enter "Old key" which came
with the OEM machine. This could be the COA sticker value on the
machine originally. As the refurbisher, you remove the COA sticker
by scratching it off. No evidence of the original license is to
be displayed on the machine.

Microsoft gives you a new Windows 10 key. The existence of that
key, is tied to the COA key from the old setup. A COA is not adhered
to the machine (the Refurbisher kit from Microsoft does not include
a new COA). But the new Win10 key was used during the installation
of the Refurbisher OS, so the key is recorded in the usual
place in the Registry (encoded, not in 25-character plaintext --
the encoding method is well known, and was posted in the WindowsXP
group decades ago :-) ).

If you tried to transfer the key to another machine, the
key has already been "seen" during the Refurbisher install.
The Microsoft server has a hardware hash recorded against
that key.

*******

You can try moving it.

The big refurbisher companies (that take delivery of a
thousand off-lease computers), they don't screw around,
like leaving the network cable disconnected during install.
They have to get the new key value into the OS *somehow*,
because the physical drive is the "transport mechanism"
for the key.

This is all from observing what came with my refurbished PC.
No COA on the machine. Old COA scratched off. I got media
with mine (a hologram DVD) since at one time, the
Refurbisher Kit did come with media. But the Win10
Refurbisher kit is just a cardboard card with a new
key value printed on it. Microsoft no longer packs a
hologram DVD in those kits.

Each Refurbisher Kit costs a nominal sum of money,
and it might even be possible you could get a
legit "bargain" key off the Internet for less.

If the machine was even newer, it would have the
original key recorded in the ACPI table known as
"MSDM". Rather than use a SLIC table. Your Dell
probably used a SLIC table and was roughly Windows 7
era. If the machine had been a year newer, the
SLIC authorization would have been replaced
with a "good for one OS" MSDM key. Win8 and Win10
and Win11 use MSDM. The key is stored in the BIOS and
each BIOS image is unique in the sense of having
the MSDM value imprinted in it.

You can check your machine for an MSDM, from Linux.
Because Linux can dump ACPI tables. If there is no MSDM
table, then it is not a Windows 8 machine and it
was sent by Dell as a Windows 7 (SLIC) machine.

*******

If you plug the drive into another machine, yes, Windows 10
is very flexible, and it will download drivers until
Device Manager is populated. Only a few drivers are
missing (no Hauppauge TV tuner drivers were given to Microsoft).

But when it checks the license key, it may find the key is
registered against the SFF. And since the level of license
is more likely to be "System Builder" than to be "Retail, fully
flexible", I expect it to whine and fail to activate, The OS
will *still* run, and only the Personalization settings page
will fail to work.

Hardly anyone manages to buy "Retail" kits, which are
transferable. And most of the high volume licensing
schemes are valid only for the original machine. There
is no reason for the Refurbisher to be transferable...
unless it was not registered during installation phase.
The means by which the key exists, is still well-known
to Microsoft, so they can figure it out if they wanted to.
It's "supposed to be on an SFF of the Dell persuasion".

Paul

Re: Question about Windows 10

<tvn822$28n0v$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 12:38:28 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 16:38 UTC

On 3/25/2023 10:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 08:30:09 -0500, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
>> turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that likes
>> Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it
>
>
> Can you? Yes.
>
> May it be used by that other person? Almost certainly not. If the
> computer came with Windows, it's almost certainly an OEM copy (Dell,
> HP, etc.) and if so the Windows license is tied to the first computer
> it's installed on. It may never be moved to another.

A refurbished PC has a non-Dell OS on it. And, a new key.
There are no Dell Toys in the new OS. The Win10 image
is as plain and ordinary, as the image I have on my
machine here.

These come with the Refurbisher Kit.

If you are a professional refurbisher, you buy kits from
Microsoft, enter the old key, are given a new key. In a sense,
the machine is no longer a Dell, from a licensing perspective.
The authorization no longer depends on the SLIC or the MSDM
in the machine.

Some legal terms in the original royalty OEM licensing, forbid
a big company from "selling on the original license". That's
why there is an additional procedure to be followed. Since the OS
is not a Dell, Dell does not provide technical support in the
event of problems. Joy Systems might be the only avenue of
response, if that, as they're an example of one of the large
refurbisher companies. The Chinese guy down town, he has
probably processed fifty or so used PCs that way, and has a cabinet
full of the Win7 Hologram DVDs that used to come with a
Refurbisher Kit. Even he followed the rules :-)

Microsoft has two ways to determine where that key came from:

1) Key is traceable to the Win7 COA value, which the refurbisher
person typed in, when ordering a Refurb Kit with new key.
2) When the OOBE happens, the hardware hash of the machine should
be recorded on the Microsoft server. And that, combined with the
new key value, gives the digital entitlement to that particular
machine. If the install was done, with the network cable
disconnected, then it is unclear whether the key has a hash
recorded against it. But because of (1), Microsoft knows...
That's if they care or not. If (2) had been done improperly,
then as far as the license server is concerned, it could activate.
But in the long term, they could audit what is going on, and
disable that entry from (2), using the info from (1) as evidence.
The evidence trail is "weaker" by relying on (1), but it's
still possible your transfer of goods will eventually fail.

Paul

Re: Question about Windows 10

<tvne4i$29jp7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: T...@invalid.invalid (T)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 11:22:10 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In-Reply-To: <20230325083009.7ee0530c@mx>
 by: T - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 18:22 UTC

On 3/25/23 06:30, Johnny wrote:
>
>
> I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
> turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that likes
> Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it
>

If it is a OEM key, no. It is meant for one
machine and one machine only. And often
it is stored in bios somewhere.

If you have a license sticker somewhere on
the computer and it is NOT OEM, then yes, but
your friend will curse you trying to get it
unlocked. It is a call to M$.

Also, know that you can run W10 and W11 without
a license. It will just turn off certain features,
such as wall paper and screen saver. Your friend
can then go to the M$ Store and pay for a license.

If you are going to install MX linux on the
SSD drive, I have found that Linux is a lot
happier if you have a blank drive to start with.
Otherwise it tried to preserve what is on the
drive and attempts to install dual boot and such.
And really fights with you if you tell it to erase
the drive.

I erase drives with a live USB stick and dd
("#" means root user. You can use sudo if you like)

# dd bs=1M if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX

Where X is your target drive.

If you are installing from a Live USB, this
is pretty easy to with a command shell just
before you start the installer.

Or you can use gparted from most Live USB's.
But I like dd better for this as /dev/zero
turns off all the charges on your ssd drive
and improves life. And from my own tests,
/dev/zero is also the fastest.

-T

Re: Question about Windows 10

<20230325135922.246dfc4f@mx>

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From: joh...@invalid.net (Johnny)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:59:22 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Johnny - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 18:59 UTC

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 11:22:10 -0700
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 3/25/23 06:30, Johnny wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have a new computer with Windows 10. The computer has not been
> > turned on yet. Can I take the ssd out and give to someone that
> > likes Windows 10? If not I will just install MX Linux on it
> >
>
>
> If it is a OEM key, no. It is meant for one
> machine and one machine only. And often
> it is stored in bios somewhere.
>
> If you have a license sticker somewhere on
> the computer and it is NOT OEM, then yes, but
> your friend will curse you trying to get it
> unlocked. It is a call to M$.

I"ll just forget it.

>
> Also, know that you can run W10 and W11 without
> a license. It will just turn off certain features,
> such as wall paper and screen saver. Your friend
> can then go to the M$ Store and pay for a license.
>
> If you are going to install MX linux on the
> SSD drive, I have found that Linux is a lot
> happier if you have a blank drive to start with.
> Otherwise it tried to preserve what is on the
> drive and attempts to install dual boot and such.
> And really fights with you if you tell it to erase
> the drive.

During installation, MX Linux's first option is to erase and install
using the whole drive.

>
> I erase drives with a live USB stick and dd
> ("#" means root user. You can use sudo if you like)
>
> # dd bs=1M if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX
>
> Where X is your target drive.
>
> If you are installing from a Live USB, this
> is pretty easy to with a command shell just
> before you start the installer.
>
> Or you can use gparted from most Live USB's.
> But I like dd better for this as /dev/zero
> turns off all the charges on your ssd drive
> and improves life. And from my own tests,
> /dev/zero is also the fastest.
>
> -T
>
>

Re: Question about Windows 10

<tvnktd$2apnv$3@dont-email.me>

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From: T...@invalid.invalid (T)
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Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:17:49 -0700
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 by: T - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:17 UTC

On 3/25/23 11:59, Johnny wrote:
> During installation, MX Linux's first option is to erase and install
> using the whole drive.

Same with Fedora. For some reason, it never works.
You think it is erased, but then get told there is
no free space left on the drive. GGRRRRR.

I do like to dd /dev/zero to reset all my charges, so
it works out anyway.

Just out of curiosity, what GUI are you using?

I adore both MATE and Xfce. KDE is too bloated for
me and Gnome is weird to the point of being unusable.
MATE is very stable but not as configurable as Xfce.

Re: Question about Windows 10

<20230325153212.11532d9e@mx>

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From: joh...@invalid.net (Johnny)
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Subject: Re: Question about Windows 10
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:32:12 -0500
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 by: Johnny - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:32 UTC

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 13:17:49 -0700
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 3/25/23 11:59, Johnny wrote:
> > During installation, MX Linux's first option is to erase and install
> > using the whole drive.
>
> Same with Fedora. For some reason, it never works.
> You think it is erased, but then get told there is
> no free space left on the drive. GGRRRRR.

I have a 500 GB ssd. It shows 2% used.

>
> I do like to dd /dev/zero to reset all my charges, so
> it works out anyway.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what GUI are you using?

Xfce. It's their default, but you can get KDE and Fluxbox.

If you decide to try it, you can move the panel to the bottom using the
Tool MX Tweak, if you want to. Just type tweak in the menu.

https://mxlinux.org/

>
> I adore both MATE and Xfce. KDE is too bloated for
> me and Gnome is weird to the point of being unusable.
> MATE is very stable but not as configurable as Xfce.

Re: Question about Windows 10

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In-Reply-To: <20230325153212.11532d9e@mx>
 by: T - Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:38 UTC

On 3/25/23 13:32, Johnny wrote:
> If you decide to try it, you can move the panel to the bottom using the
> Tool MX Tweak, if you want to. Just type tweak in the menu.

Hmmmm. I just use the Xfce setting dialogs for that.
Xfce is cool stuff.

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