On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>
>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about? Copying the hardware or
>>> the software?
>>
>> 🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>
>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>
>>
>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued? We're all using IBM clones aren't we?
>>
>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to PCI.
>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>
> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. 🙂
>
> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>
> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>
> Is there REALLY such a thing?

I've never observed it, it is possible. My BIOS has protection against it, so thre must be threats out there. The first answer in Quora is correct:

****
Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
Detection:
1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
****

I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it. If it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used to have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS. I assume Macs are similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can you press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the OS like on a PC? I know there are some keys which do special things before the OS loads when the OS is needing fixed.

On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>
>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>>> the software?
>>>
>>>    🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>>
>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>
>>>
>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>> we?
>>>
>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>> PCI.
>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>
>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. 🙂
>>
>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>
>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>
>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>
> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection against
> it, so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in Quora is
> correct:
>
> ****
> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software
> into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
> Detection:
> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
> ****
>
> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it.  If
> it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used to
> have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I assume Macs are
> similar?  I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can you
> press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the OS like on a
> PC?  I know there are some keys which do special things before the OS
> loads when the OS is needing fixed.

As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
But I'm willing to learn!

I found this, which you may wish to explore:-

https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode#:~:text

On 3/27/2023 4:36 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:58:47 +0100, James McDougal
> <JMD@address.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>
>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>> the software?
>>
>>   🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>
>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>
> The sentence was "IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel"
> technology".
>
> Since OS/2 AFAIK is a software OS, I couldn't see hardware being
> within it.
>

"IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it."

You stopped reading, so you missed "in the motherboard". Motherboard is
hardware.

Maybe I should have used "with it" instead of "within it".

>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>> we?
>>
>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>> PCI.
>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>
> Pity that other proprietary company doesn't go the same way - Apple.
>
> IBM are still screwing everyone around.  World Community Grid has had
> a lot of trouble converting from IBM servers to generic ones.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 11:11:37 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:

> On 3/27/2023 4:36 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:58:47 +0100, James McDougal
>> <JMD@address.is.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>
>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about? Copying the hardware or
>>>> the software?
>>>
>>> 🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>>
>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>
>> The sentence was "IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel"
>> technology".
>>
>> Since OS/2 AFAIK is a software OS, I couldn't see hardware being
>> within it.
>>
>
> "IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it."
>
> You stopped reading, so you missed "in the motherboard". Motherboard is
> hardware.
>
> Maybe I should have used "with it" instead of "within it".

I understood what you said but didn't believe you, since I thought OS/2 was just an operating system.

>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued? We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>> we?
>>>
>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>> PCI.
>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>
>> Pity that other proprietary company doesn't go the same way - Apple.
>>
>> IBM are still screwing everyone around. World Community Grid has had
>> a lot of trouble converting from IBM servers to generic ones.
>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:23:26 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about? Copying the hardware or
>>>>> the software?
>>>>
>>>> 🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>>>
>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued? We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>>> we?
>>>>
>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>>> PCI.
>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>
>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. 🙂
>>>
>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>
>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>
>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>
>> I've never observed it, it is possible. My BIOS has protection against
>> it, so thre must be threats out there. The first answer in Quora is
>> correct:
>>
>> ****
>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software
>> into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>> Detection:
>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>> ****
>>
>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it. If
>> it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used to
>> have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS. I assume Macs are
>> similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can you
>> press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the OS like on a
>> PC? I know there are some keys which do special things before the OS
>> loads when the OS is needing fixed.
>
> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac..
> But I'm willing to learn!
>
> I found this, which you may wish to explore:-
>
> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode#:~:text

They say "On older PCs" which is wrong, they all have a BIOS you can go into and change settings.

They say "UEFI, or unified extensible firmware interface, is the name of the firmware in macOS that does the same job as BIOS on most Windows machines" which is also bollocks, modern PCs also use UEFI, but that doesn't stop there being a big menu of things to fiddle with. How else would you tweak stuff and overclock stuff?

"Apple doesn’t allow users to navigate UEFI and adjust settings before the macOS loads" - ah now we get down to it. Apple controls everything, you don't get a say on how your own property functions.

So what you need to do is download the BIOS for your mac and reflash it from within the OS. I bet you can't, and you have to pay an Apple shop a billion pounds to do it for you, because they couldn't possibly trust end users to do that.

Get a PC.

on 3/27/2023, David Brooks supposed :
> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, ? Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>>>> the software?
>>>>
>>>>    ? :rolls_eyes:
>>>>
>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones aren't we?
>>>>
>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>>> PCI.
>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>
>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. ?
>>>
>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>
>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>
>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>
>> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection against it,
>> so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in Quora is correct:
>>
>> ****
>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software into
>> the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>> Detection:
>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>> ****
>>
>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it.  If it's
>> a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used to have to
>> load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I assume Macs are similar? 
>> I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can you press a key at
>> power on to get to basic settings before the OS like on a PC?  I know there
>> are some keys which do special things before the OS loads when the OS is
>> needing fixed.
>
> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
> But I'm willing to learn!

Do you mean CMOS?

https://www.macworld.com/article/224955/how-to-reset-a-macs-nvram-pram-and-smc.html

In article <op.12goyulkmvhs6z@ryzen.home>, Commander Kinsey
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> > As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
> > But I'm willing to learn!
> >
> > I found this, which you may wish to explore:-
> >
> > https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode#:~:text
>
> They say "On older PCs" which is wrong, they all have a BIOS you can go into
> and change settings.

it's not wrong. older pcs have bios and newer ones have uefi. they're
not the same, although they do similar things.

as for macs -
68k macs don't have anything
powerpc macs have open firmware
intel macs have uefi
apple silicon macs have an apple bootloader.

> They say "UEFI, or unified extensible firmware interface, is the name of the
> firmware in macOS that does the same job as BIOS on most Windows machines"
> which is also bollocks, modern PCs also use UEFI, but that doesn't stop there
> being a big menu of things to fiddle with. How else would you tweak stuff
> and overclock stuff?

other methods.

> "Apple doesn¹t allow users to navigate UEFI and adjust settings before the
> macOS loads" - ah now we get down to it. Apple controls everything, you
> don't get a say on how your own property functions.

that's false. apple does not stop anyone from doing anything they want
to their hardware.

> So what you need to do is download the BIOS for your mac and reflash it from
> within the OS. I bet you can't, and you have to pay an Apple shop a billion
> pounds to do it for you, because they couldn't possibly trust end users to do that.

even a billion pounds won't help, because macs don't have a bios to
reflash.

On 3/27/2023 6:58 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 11:11:37 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>
>> On 3/27/2023 4:36 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:58:47 +0100, James McDougal
>>> <JMD@address.is.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>>>> the software?
>>>>
>>>>   🙄 :rolls_eyes:
>>>>
>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>
>>> The sentence was "IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel"
>>> technology".
>>>
>>> Since OS/2 AFAIK is a software OS, I couldn't see hardware being
>>> within it.
>>>
>>
>> "IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in the
>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it."
>>
>> You stopped reading, so you missed "in the motherboard". Motherboard is
>> hardware.
>>
>> Maybe I should have used "with it" instead of "within it".
>
> I understood what you said but didn't believe you, since I thought
> OS/2 was just an operating system.
>

Before OS/2, all the IBM PC "DOS", and "Win 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x" for
IBM's PC line of computers were made by Microsoft.

IBM's OS/2 came out together with the micro-channel. Micro-channel is
the connector on the motherboard that accepts plug-in cards, much like
the PCIe today. IBM's goal was to wrestle back the ownership of its own
PC line of computers from Microsoft and clone makers.

IBM failed to choke Microsoft and clone makers off because Microsoft
formed a consortium with hardware manufacturers to develop new
technologies for the PC and  made the new PCs substantially different
from IBM's original design. Bill Gates, with the help of Chinese
manufacturing capacity, became the world's richest man by robbing IBM
and made Microsoft Windows the dominant computer operating system in
consumer and business applications.

>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued? We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>>> we?
>>>>
>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>>> PCI.
>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>
>>> Pity that other proprietary company doesn't go the same way - Apple.
>>>
>>> IBM are still screwing everyone around.  World Community Grid has had
>>> a lot of trouble converting from IBM servers to generic ones.
>>

"FromTheRafters" wrote:
> David Brooks laid this down on his screen :
>> On 26/03/2023 04:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> https://i.imgur.com/HZlXAyx.jpg
>>> It's a screengrab from a TV program. OS/2? Something fictitious?
>>
>> I'm fairly sure that it is Windows 3.1

Definitely not.

> Looks a lot like this:
>
> http://www.tech2u.com.au/training/tech2u/win98_1/disk.html

Or more like this:
https://i.ibb.co/WnFJTtG/drive-w2k.png

That's from Windows 2000, has the "Hardware" tab and "File System" is
a separate line of text. Windows XP changed the disk icon (top left)
to a 3D perspective view.

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwalkers

<quote>
Goofs

When Major Samantha Carter is looking through a computer at Dr. Richard
Flemming's house, she looks at the system properties, which displays
the used disk space as 0.0 and 100% of the disk space pie chart as free
space. Even with no additional information, a computer that has any
type of operating system on it would still occupy some disk space with
the OS, drivers, and other operating tools. It is possible, however,
that she was checking a partition or secondary hard drive, which can be
empty. Furthermore, the free space in bytes converts to 8.6 GB, yet the
screen shows 9.6 GB free.
</quote>

Another difference from the Win dialog is the "used" and "free" space
lines are capitalized and swapped around.

That properties dialog is just wrong and has to be faked (inspired by
Win2k). It could be on any OS (likely Mac or Win) using an appropriate
skin for the desktop and window furniture.

On 27/03/2023 12:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
> on 3/27/2023, David Brooks supposed :
>> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, ? Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>>>>> the software?
>>>>>
>>>>>    ? :rolls_eyes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones
>>>>>> aren't we?
>>>>>
>>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA
>>>>> to PCI.
>>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>>
>>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. ?
>>>>
>>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>>
>>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>>
>>> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection
>>> against it, so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in
>>> Quora is correct:
>>>
>>> ****
>>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software
>>> into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>>> Detection:
>>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>>> ****
>>>
>>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it.  If
>>> it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used
>>> to have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I assume
>>> Macs are similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings -
>>> can you press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the
>>> OS like on a PC?  I know there are some keys which do special things
>>> before the OS loads when the OS is needing fixed.
>>
>> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
>> But I'm willing to learn!
>
> Do you mean CMOS?
>
> https://www.macworld.com/article/224955/how-to-reset-a-macs-nvram-pram-and-smc.html

No, Sir!

I learnt about that within the first two years of owning my /first/
iMac! (bought 2009)

Thanks anyway!

--
David

Apd explained :
> "FromTheRafters" wrote:
>> David Brooks laid this down on his screen :
>>> On 26/03/2023 04:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> https://i.imgur.com/HZlXAyx.jpg
>>>> It's a screengrab from a TV program. OS/2? Something fictitious?
>>>
>>> I'm fairly sure that it is Windows 3.1
>
> Definitely not.
>
>> Looks a lot like this:
>>
>> http://www.tech2u.com.au/training/tech2u/win98_1/disk.html
>
> Or more like this:
> https://i.ibb.co/WnFJTtG/drive-w2k.png

Yes.

> That's from Windows 2000, has the "Hardware" tab and "File System" is
> a separate line of text. Windows XP changed the disk icon (top left)
> to a 3D perspective view.
>
> https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwalkers
>
> <quote>
> Goofs
>
> When Major Samantha Carter is looking through a computer at Dr. Richard
> Flemming's house, she looks at the system properties, which displays
> the used disk space as 0.0 and 100% of the disk space pie chart as free
> space. Even with no additional information, a computer that has any
> type of operating system on it would still occupy some disk space with
> the OS, drivers, and other operating tools. It is possible, however,
> that she was checking a partition or secondary hard drive, which can be
> empty. Furthermore, the free space in bytes converts to 8.6 GB, yet the
> screen shows 9.6 GB free.
> </quote>

Somebody in the graphics crew is having a little fun I suspect. There
are many things in movies and TV shows that you are just not supposed
to notice.

> Another difference from the Win dialog is the "used" and "free" space
> lines are capitalized and swapped around.
>
> That properties dialog is just wrong and has to be faked (inspired by
> Win2k). It could be on any OS (likely Mac or Win) using an appropriate
> skin for the desktop and window furniture.

I looked at 2003 server and IIRC it had two rows of tabs. I even looked
at 98ME but saw no images for 2000.

David Brooks explained on 3/27/2023 :
> On 27/03/2023 12:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> on 3/27/2023, David Brooks supposed :
>>> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, ? Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware or
>>>>>>> the software?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    ? :rolls_eyes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>>>>> we?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>>>>> PCI.
>>>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>>>
>>>> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection against
>>>> it, so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in Quora is
>>>> correct:
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software
>>>> into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>>>> Detection:
>>>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>>>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it.  If
>>>> it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used to
>>>> have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I assume Macs are
>>>> similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can you
>>>> press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the OS like on a
>>>> PC?  I know there are some keys which do special things before the OS
>>>> loads when the OS is needing fixed.
>>>
>>> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
>>> But I'm willing to learn!
>>
>> Do you mean CMOS?
>>
>> https://www.macworld.com/article/224955/how-to-reset-a-macs-nvram-pram-and-smc.html
>
> No, Sir!
>
> I learnt about that within the first two years of owning my /first/ iMac!
> (bought 2009)
>
> Thanks anyway!

Then what do you mean by "equivalent to BIOS settings" if not storage
in NVRAM?

On 27/03/2023 15:04, FromTheRafters wrote:
> David Brooks explained on 3/27/2023 :
>> On 27/03/2023 12:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> on 3/27/2023, David Brooks supposed :
>>>> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, ? Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the
>>>>>>>> hardware or
>>>>>>>> the software?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    ? :rolls_eyes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones
>>>>>>>> aren't we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from
>>>>>>> ISA to PCI.
>>>>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>>>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection
>>>>> against it, so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in
>>>>> Quora is correct:
>>>>>
>>>>> ****
>>>>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original
>>>>> software into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>>>>> Detection:
>>>>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>>>>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it.
>>>>> If it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you
>>>>> used to have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I
>>>>> assume Macs are similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS
>>>>> settings - can you press a key at power on to get to basic settings
>>>>> before the OS like on a PC?  I know there are some keys which do
>>>>> special things before the OS loads when the OS is needing fixed.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
>>>> But I'm willing to learn!
>>>
>>> Do you mean CMOS?
>>>
>>> https://www.macworld.com/article/224955/how-to-reset-a-macs-nvram-pram-and-smc.html
>>
>> No, Sir!
>>
>> I learnt about that within the first two years of owning my /first/
>> iMac! (bought 2009)
>>
>> Thanks anyway!
>
> Then what do you mean by "equivalent to BIOS settings" if not storage in
> NVRAM?

PLease see if there is anything here which will help you:-

https://www.google.com/search?q=there+is+*NO*+equivalent+to+BIOS+settings+on+a+Mac.+

--
David

On 3/26/23 23:25, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

> It's also badly done, the boot drive is empty, yet the OS is running?

Why do you assume this is the boot drive. Its labeled "DOCUMENTS" and
the boot drive is not always C.

BTW, I once had a Windows installation (I think it was w2k) that booted
from E.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Faith is the glorification of ignorance." -- Jeff Dee

"FromTheRafters" wrote:
> Apd explained :
>> "FromTheRafters" wrote:
>>> Looks a lot like this:
>>>
>>> http://www.tech2u.com.au/training/tech2u/win98_1/disk.html
>>
>> Or more like this:
>> https://i.ibb.co/WnFJTtG/drive-w2k.png
>
> Yes.
[...]
>> Furthermore, the free space in bytes converts to 8.6 GB, yet the
>> screen shows 9.6 GB free.
>> </quote>
>
> Somebody in the graphics crew is having a little fun I suspect. There are
> many things in movies and TV shows that you are just not supposed to
> notice.

Probably. That drama "The Undeclred War" I wrote about last year did a
resonable job.

>> That properties dialog is just wrong and has to be faked (inspired by
>> Win2k). It could be on any OS (likely Mac or Win) using an appropriate
>> skin for the desktop and window furniture.
>
> I looked at 2003 server and IIRC it had two rows of tabs. I even looked at
> 98ME but saw no images for 2000.

That image is from my own system. Win2k server has a "Quota" tab
described here:
<https://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=21481&seqNum=6>

The link to figure 3 shows the file system is NTFS. Those extra tabs
and options will be because of that and other services that are
active.

After serious thinking David Brooks wrote :
> On 27/03/2023 15:04, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> David Brooks explained on 3/27/2023 :
>>> On 27/03/2023 12:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> on 3/27/2023, David Brooks supposed :
>>>>> On 27/03/2023 09:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:29:00 +0100, David Brooks
>>>>>> <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/03/2023 07:58, James McDougal wrote:
>>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:26:34 +0100, ? Mighty Wannabe ✅ <.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IBM made the OS/2, and within it the "micro-channel" technology in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> motherboard, and vowed to sue any clone maker who dared copy it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What exactly did they threaten to sue about?  Copying the hardware
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> the software?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    ? :rolls_eyes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sue about copying IBM's proprietary "micro-channel" technology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So how come everyone wasn't sued?  We're all using IBM clones aren't
>>>>>>>>> we?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The clones did not use Micro Channel. The clones advanced from ISA to
>>>>>>>> PCI.
>>>>>>>> Micro Channel had only a small niche market, and PCI won the day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You obviously know about computers! Thank you for your answer. ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you answer the question which I asked previously?
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <T56RL.1060071$gGD7.255827@fx11.iad>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-detect-and-get-rid-of-malware-which-resides-in-my-computers-firmware-and-internal-electronics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there REALLY such a thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never observed it, it is possible.  My BIOS has protection against
>>>>>> it, so thre must be threats out there.  The first answer in Quora is
>>>>>> correct:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ****
>>>>>> Removal is the "easier" part: You either flash back original software
>>>>>> into the firmware, exchange the firmware or you can't.
>>>>>> Detection:
>>>>>> 1. Symptoms (it behaves differently from original software)
>>>>>> 2. Byte by Byte firmware comparison with original one.
>>>>>> ****
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would simply flash it with the same as already should be on it. If
>>>>>> it's a PC motherboard BIOS, this can be done within Windows, you used
>>>>>> to have to load it on using a USB stick within the BIOS.  I assume Macs
>>>>>> are similar? I've never actually been in a Mac's BIOS settings - can
>>>>>> you press a key at power on to get to basic settings before the OS like
>>>>>> on a PC?  I know there are some keys which do special things before the
>>>>>> OS loads when the OS is needing fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I'm aware there is *NO* equivalent to BIOS settings on a Mac.
>>>>> But I'm willing to learn!
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean CMOS?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.macworld.com/article/224955/how-to-reset-a-macs-nvram-pram-and-smc.html
>>>
>>> No, Sir!
>>>
>>> I learnt about that within the first two years of owning my /first/ iMac!
>>> (bought 2009)
>>>
>>> Thanks anyway!
>>
>> Then what do you mean by "equivalent to BIOS settings" if not storage in
>> NVRAM?
>
>
> PLease see if there is anything here which will help you:-
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=there+is+*NO*+equivalent+to+BIOS+settings+on+a+Mac.+

https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode

==================
BIOS mode only exists on PCs, right? Well, sort of. Although the Mac
doesn’t have a bios mode, it has something similar. In this article,
we’ll get into what BIOS mode is, its equivalent on the Mac, and how to
enter and use it.
==================

Yep, it helps.

In article <tvseto$39kcn$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

>
> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>
> ==================
> BIOS mode only exists on PCs, right? Well, sort of. Although the Mac
> doesn¹t have a bios mode, it has something similar. In this article,
> we¹ll get into what BIOS mode is, its equivalent on the Mac, and how to
> enter and use it.
> ==================
>
> Yep, it helps.

similar is not the same, and macs don't have anything close to bios
mode for pcs. it also depends on which mac.

as i said, 68k macs don't have anything, powerpc macs have open
firmware (and one could use its command line to for those so inclined),
intel macs have uefi (without any bios compatibility mode as was common
on windows pcs) and apple silicon has apple's own bootloader, each with
different options.

nospam submitted this idea :
> In article <tvseto$39kcn$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
> <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>>
>> ==================
>> BIOS mode only exists on PCs, right? Well, sort of. Although the Mac
>> doesn¹t have a bios mode, it has something similar. In this article,
>> we¹ll get into what BIOS mode is, its equivalent on the Mac, and how to
>> enter and use it.
>> ==================
>>
>> Yep, it helps.
>
> similar is not the same,

Equivalent function.

In article <tvsl1e$3am8f$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> >> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
> >>
> >> ==================
> >> BIOS mode only exists on PCs, right? Well, sort of. Although the Mac
> >> doesn¹t have a bios mode, it has something similar. In this article,
> >> we¹ll get into what BIOS mode is, its equivalent on the Mac, and how to
> >> enter and use it.
> >> ==================
> >>
> >> Yep, it helps.
> >
> > similar is not the same,
>
> Equivalent function.

only with intel macs with uefi, and there's no menu interface or bios
mode.

for 68k/powerpc/apple silicon, it ranges from nonexistent to very
different.

on 3/27/2023, nospam supposed :
> In article <tvsl1e$3am8f$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
> <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>>>> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>>>>
>>>> ==================
>>>> BIOS mode only exists on PCs, right? Well, sort of. Although the Mac
>>>> doesn¹t have a bios mode, it has something similar. In this article,
>>>> we¹ll get into what BIOS mode is, its equivalent on the Mac, and how to
>>>> enter and use it.
>>>> ==================
>>>>
>>>> Yep, it helps.
>>>
>>> similar is not the same,
>>
>> Equivalent function.
>
> only with intel macs with uefi, and there's no menu interface or bios
> mode.

But there are still "settings" stored in NVRAM.

> for 68k/powerpc/apple silicon, it ranges from nonexistent to very
> different.

I'm not arguing about terminology here, firmware code needs access to
stored, possibly user supplied, settings during the boot axis yet
before disk access. Call it whatever you want, but if it were not
possibly 'user supplied' data it would not need to be in battery or
capacitor 'keep alive' voltage NVRAM as ROM would suffice.

I posted that particular URL because it was the second hit in the
google search URL BD supplied and it disagreed with him.

In article <tvt46e$3den5$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> >>> similar is not the same,
> >>
> >> Equivalent function.
> >
> > only with intel macs with uefi, and there's no menu interface or bios
> > mode.
>
> But there are still "settings" stored in NVRAM.

nvram (and pram in earlier macs) is different than uefi, and it can be
accessed and modified from the command line (and apps in classic mac
os).

at the command prompt, type
nvram -p
to see what's stored there.

don't modify anything without knowing *exactly* what it's going to do,
and even then, don't.

> > for 68k/powerpc/apple silicon, it ranges from nonexistent to very
> > different.
>
> I'm not arguing about terminology here, firmware code needs access to
> stored, possibly user supplied, settings during the boot axis yet
> before disk access. Call it whatever you want, but if it were not
> possibly 'user supplied' data it would not need to be in battery or
> capacitor 'keep alive' voltage NVRAM as ROM would suffice.

it's for persistent settings.

> I posted that particular URL because it was the second hit in the
> google search

lots of stuff that comes up in a search isn't completely accurate, and
sometimes not accurate at all.

> URL BD supplied and it disagreed with him.

quite a bit does.

On 3/27/2023 11:34 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 3/26/23 23:25, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> It's also badly done, the boot drive is empty, yet the OS is running?
>
> Why do you assume this is the boot drive. Its labeled "DOCUMENTS" and the boot drive is not always C.
>
> BTW, I once had a Windows installation (I think it was w2k) that booted from E.
>

The drive having "0 bytes" used on it, I found that amusing.

It might be able to say "0 bytes" if it was RAW, but
since the label says FAT32, then immediately the used space
has to be >0 . RAW partitions say "0 for everything".

And sure, an OS does not have to install to C: .

It can install to D: or E: if it wants. The drive letter
is discovered during first boot. If the determination is
wrong, then it has to continue using that drive letter
on subsequent boots. That's because some of the resources it
needs, are identified by drive letter.

Paul

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:
> On 3/26/23 23:25, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> [snip]

> > It's also badly done, the boot drive is empty, yet the OS is running?

> Why do you assume this is the boot drive. Its labeled "DOCUMENTS" and
> the boot drive is not always C.

> BTW, I once had a Windows installation (I think it was w2k) that booted
> from E.

Yep. I did too.
--
"He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation." --Colossians 1:22. Tech. issues & Apple's update slammy day again. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

nospam laid this down on his screen :
> In article <tvt46e$3den5$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
> <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>
>>>>> similar is not the same,
>>>>
>>>> Equivalent function.
>>>
>>> only with intel macs with uefi, and there's no menu interface or bios
>>> mode.
>>
>> But there are still "settings" stored in NVRAM.
>
> nvram (and pram in earlier macs) is different than uefi, and it can be
> accessed and modified from the command line (and apps in classic mac
> os).
>
> at the command prompt, type
> nvram -p
> to see what's stored there.
>
> don't modify anything without knowing *exactly* what it's going to do,
> and even then, don't.
>
>>> for 68k/powerpc/apple silicon, it ranges from nonexistent to very
>>> different.
>>
>> I'm not arguing about terminology here, firmware code needs access to
>> stored, possibly user supplied, settings during the boot axis yet
>> before disk access. Call it whatever you want, but if it were not
>> possibly 'user supplied' data it would not need to be in battery or
>> capacitor 'keep alive' voltage NVRAM as ROM would suffice.
>
> it's for persistent settings.

Yes, user and OS changeable 'persistent' settings before disk access is
made. ROM is even more persistent than NVRAM.

>> I posted that particular URL because it was the second hit in the
>> google search
>
> lots of stuff that comes up in a search isn't completely accurate, and
> sometimes not accurate at all.
>
>> URL BD supplied and it disagreed with him.
>
> quite a bit does.

There's a good chance that even an Apple computer still 'stores' such
'settings' in CMOS. This terminology has nothting to do with BIOS vs.
UEFI or whether or not there is a capacitor or a battery or a user
interface like the various old 'CMOS Setup' programs in BIOSes did.

I thought that his statement indicated a misunderstanding on his part,
and I still do.

In article <tvthjk$3ibl2$1@dont-email.me>, FromTheRafters
<FTR@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

>
> There's a good chance that even an Apple computer still 'stores' such
> 'settings' in CMOS. This terminology has nothting to do with BIOS vs.
> UEFI or whether or not there is a capacitor or a battery or a user
> interface like the various old 'CMOS Setup' programs in BIOSes did.

one of my pet peeves is the term cmos is used for pc nonvolatile
memory. it was originally cmos, but it isn't anymore.

cmos is a process, as are nmos, pmos, ttl, ecl and assorted others.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS>

in any event, mac os x, being unix based, stores a lot of stuff in
assorted config files. welcome to the 1970s. very little is stored in
nvram because nvram didn't exist back then.

> I thought that his statement indicated a misunderstanding on his part,
> and I still do.

everything david says indicates a grave misunderstanding of the world.