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computers / alt.comp.os.windows-10 / Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

SubjectAuthor
* I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft AMinoru Osaka
+- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toGraham J
+* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
|+* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoMinoru Osaka
||+* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toJohnny
|||`* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toPaul
||| `- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
||+- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
||`- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need towasbit
|`* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoPeter
| +- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
| `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toPaul
|  `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
|   +* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoAndy Burnelli
|   |`* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
|   | +* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toPaul
|   | |`* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoAndy Burnelli
|   | | +* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
|   | | |`- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoAndy Burnelli
|   | | `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toAndy Burns
|   | |  `- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoAndy Burnelli
|   | `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toAndy Burns
|   |  `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
|   |   `- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toAndy Burns
|   `- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toCarlos E.R.
+* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toPaul
|`- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoFromTheRafters
+- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
+* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoAnt
|`* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoKen Blake
| `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toPaul
|  `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoKen Blake
|   `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoFrank Slootweg
|    `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoKen Blake
|     `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoFrank Slootweg
|      +* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoKen Blake
|      |`- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoFrank Slootweg
|      `* Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toManuram
|       `- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a MicrosoFrank Slootweg
`- Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need toMr. Man-wai Chang

Pages:12
Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<k8dihnFqlfoU1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=70102&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#70102

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11 alt.comp.os.windows-10 alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.mb-net.net!open-news-network.org!news.mind.de!news.boerde.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to
establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:03:50 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <tvr3is$8ot7$1@paganini.bofh.team>
 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:03 UTC

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> when the "N" archives used exactly those monikers, namely:
> <https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narchive.com>
> <https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.windows7.general.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.msdos.batch.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.os.linux.narchive.com>
> <https://comp.mobile.android.narchive.com>
> <https://comp.mobile.ipad.narchive.com>
> <https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narchive.com>
> <https://alt.comp.freeware.narchive.com>
> etc.

I presume you mean narkive.com rather than narchive.com in all those
URLs? unfortunately narkive seems to have thinned-down to under 20
groups,not including any of the above, can that be right?

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<23j8fjxb2m.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=70106&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#70106

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to
establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:42:26 +0200
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In-Reply-To: <k8dhq3FqhgtU1@mid.individual.net>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:42 UTC

On 2023-03-27 14:51, Andy Burns wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> It is not my fault that google groups is broken. And it was not me who
>> said that alt.comp.os.windows-10 is in google groups but
>> alt.comp.os.windows-11 is not.
>
> neither a.c.o.w10 or a.c.o.w11 exist in google groups, but a.c.m.w does
> exist
>
> <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
>

I'll try to remember.

However, my upstream doesn't have alt.comp.microsoft.windows. In fact,
nothing "alt.comp.microsoft"

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<mnb32i1l27foamjs7a0gm70iprg1hs2fg6@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 07:59:30 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:59 UTC

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
>
>Or better. Don't upgrade. :)

I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<k8drv2Fs3h1U1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=70116&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#70116

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to
establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 16:44:32 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <23j8fjxb2m.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:44 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> my upstream doesn't have alt.comp.microsoft.windows. In fact, nothing
> "alt.comp.microsoft"

My main server NIN doesn't, I have a secondary account on giganews which
does

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<tvsear$d7op$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=70117&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#70117

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.net (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:56:27 -0700
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 15:56 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:

>> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narchive.com>
>
> Site not found.

Thanks for checking that where the "N" archives have never been reliable.
I use them only when I can't use the "G" archives (mostly for Windows).
>> What I had created were tinyurl links which were the best I could do then:
>
> One more reason not to use tiny URLs.
> Albeit they work in this case.

The main reason for using the tinyurls is that Google DejaNews archives
used hard-to-remember links with "/forum/#!forum/" inside of them.

Years after I painstakingly created all the tinyurls, Google simplified
the web-search URL to just "g", which basically retired the tinyurls.

>> <https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10>
>
> Redirects to <http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=52>

Yup. Frank Slootweg and I made the decision, years ago, to link it
to that since the Windows-10 newsgroup isn't on the "G" archives.

>> <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
>
> This one works.

Yup. That's why I recommended all significant threads (e.g., tutorials)
be cross posted to alt.comp.microsoft.windows (for archival & search use).

>> In summary, I "think" Google _does_ add groups when _they_ see fit.
>> They just do NOT see fit to add Windows variants as archived groups.

Andy Burns & Grant Taylor know more about it than I do, as shown here.
*Grant Taylor*
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.freeware/c/SInASENSXmg/m/bqz2rD6wAgAJ>
*Andy Burns*
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/c/UEmWBLlelto/m/P2jJpv8pBwAJ>

Bear in mind the intent of these web-searchable URLs is to search but
not necessarily to post (which I'm sure you can do, but I don't do that).

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<tvsf5l$db40$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.net (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 09:10:44 -0700
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 16:10 UTC

Andy Burns wrote:

> I presume you mean narkive.com rather than narchive.com in all those
> URLs? unfortunately narkive seems to have thinned-down to under 20
> groups,not including any of the above, can that be right?

Darn. My mistake. Yes. Narkive.
(I thought I had tested them, but errors crept in somehow.)

I use narkive as the search engine of last resort as it's unreliable.

Google groups is my first web-archives search engine for most newsgroups
(but it doesn't work for Windows-10 and Windows-11 as you are well aware).

Then comes pc-banter.
Last is the google normal search engine.

In almost all cases, you have to already know what exists to find it.

I mostly use the search engine to search before asking a question, or, on
technical groups, to search for a detailed answer that I need to brush up
upon.
--
Sometimes I use it to prove iKooks wrong since they never remember anything
we've discussed (iKooks are moronic revanchists in the most shocking ways).

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<tvt3de$3d7uh$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to
establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400
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 by: Paul - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 21:55 UTC

On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
>>
>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
>
>
> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
>

I think you're dead wrong. And this is why.

This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E

Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
have the technical capability to do that.

The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.

Excessive virtualization and foolery, is how you get in a mess like that.

Not publishing a detailed block diagram model of your OS, is how
you get in a mess like that. There is no security through obscurity.
None whatsoever.

There comes a point, where if you put enough crap into an OS,
it becomes a liability for everyone. Company and users.

Reporting incidents through the Feedback Hub, is a piss poor
mode of alerting someone to what has happened. There is no guarantee
every report has been read by a human.

Paul

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<h3942it1c0abj0p2horvskejrg6d11o0kk@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 16:45:00 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 27 Mar 2023 23:45 UTC

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>>
>>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
>>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
>>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
>>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
>>>
>>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
>>
>>
>> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
>> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
>>
>
>I think you're dead wrong.

OK, we all have different opinions and different preferences. See
below for a couple of comments.

> And this is why.
>
>This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.
>
>http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E
>
>Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
>have the technical capability to do that.
>
>The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.

I don't use the Windows task manager. Instead I use the third-party
Task Manager Deluxe, which I think is much better.

I don't think everything built into Windows 11 is great, nor did I
think everything in any prior version was great. So I use third-party
utilities and application programs whenever I think they are better
than what comes with Windows or what Microsoft offers separately. I
won't bother to list them all, but there are a bunch besides Task
Manager Deluxe, starting with Start11, Winaero Tweaker, and Firefox.

But I do think it's best to stay up-to-date with Windows versions,
primarily because sooner or later some hardware or program or an
updated version of a program you run is released and you want or need
it. And when that happens, you may find that it won't run with an
older Windows version.

Another reason is that if you let a version or two go by before you
upgrade to the latest version, most people will find it harder to
adapt to all the changes in the new version. Getting changes a little
at a time is easier.

>Reporting incidents through the Feedback Hub, is a piss poor
>mode of alerting someone to what has happened. There is no guarantee
>every report has been read by a human.

Yes, I agree.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<u01i7g.mss.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: 29 Mar 2023 12:33:29 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:33 UTC

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
> >>
> >>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
> >>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
> >>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
> >>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
> >>>
> >>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
> >>
> >>
> >> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
> >> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
> >>
> >
> >I think you're dead wrong.
>
>
> OK, we all have different opinions and different preferences. See
> below for a couple of comments.
>
> > And this is why.
> >
> >This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.
> >
> >http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E
> >
> >Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
> >have the technical capability to do that.
> >
> >The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.
>
> I don't use the Windows task manager. Instead I use the third-party
> Task Manager Deluxe, which I think is much better.
>
> I don't think everything built into Windows 11 is great, nor did I
> think everything in any prior version was great. So I use third-party
> utilities and application programs whenever I think they are better
> than what comes with Windows or what Microsoft offers separately. I
> won't bother to list them all, but there are a bunch besides Task
> Manager Deluxe, starting with Start11, Winaero Tweaker, and Firefox.

So basically you're saying you need third-party utilities/programs to
un-break stuff in the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the
earlier version(s)! :-( I think you just made Paul's point.

> But I do think it's best to stay up-to-date with Windows versions,
> primarily because sooner or later some hardware or program or an
> updated version of a program you run is released and you want or need
> it. And when that happens, you may find that it won't run with an
> older Windows version.

And *if* such a thing happens, which isn't all that likely, it's early
enough to consider 'upgrading' to a newer Windows version. BTW, "an
updated version of a program you run" is even less important/common,
because in most cases you can just continue to use the 'old' working
version.

> Another reason is that if you let a version or two go by before you
> upgrade to the latest version, most people will find it harder to
> adapt to all the changes in the new version. Getting changes a little
> at a time is easier.

'True', but it's probably better to have a week of horror instead of
many years of constant annoyance from changing/breaking stuff.

But yes, I have 'upgraded' too, but only because 1) a new machine came
with Windows 11 (and most likely could not be 'downgraded' to 8.1) and
2) the wife's 8.1 machine ran out of (Extended) support , so I 'had' to
'upgrade' it to 10).

> >Reporting incidents through the Feedback Hub, is a piss poor
> >mode of alerting someone to what has happened. There is no guarantee
> >every report has been read by a human.
>
> Yes, I agree.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<bo392iprth7l1jqovtpsm9tnit2qu23c5l@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:04:28 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:04 UTC

On 29 Mar 2023 12:33:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
>> >>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
>> >>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
>> >>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
>> >>>
>> >>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
>> >> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I think you're dead wrong.
>>
>>
>> OK, we all have different opinions and different preferences. See
>> below for a couple of comments.
>>
>> > And this is why.
>> >
>> >This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.
>> >
>> >http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E
>> >
>> >Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
>> >have the technical capability to do that.
>> >
>> >The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.
>>
>> I don't use the Windows task manager. Instead I use the third-party
>> Task Manager Deluxe, which I think is much better.
>>
>> I don't think everything built into Windows 11 is great, nor did I
>> think everything in any prior version was great. So I use third-party
>> utilities and application programs whenever I think they are better
>> than what comes with Windows or what Microsoft offers separately. I
>> won't bother to list them all, but there are a bunch besides Task
>> Manager Deluxe, starting with Start11, Winaero Tweaker, and Firefox.
>
> So basically you're saying you need third-party utilities/programs to
>un-break stuff in the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the
>earlier version(s)! :-( I think you just made Paul's point.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I wasn't talking about broken stuff. Yes, occasionally something
doesn't work the way it's supposed to, but in my experience that's
been rare.

What I was talking about was stuff that doesn't work the way *I* would
like it to. Note the stress on "I." Just because I don't like the way
something works doesn't mean everybody doesn't. Some people like
changes that I dislike. As an example, I know several people who like
and use Edge, even though I think it's the worst of all browsers.

So whenever I can make things more to my liking with third-party
utilities/programs (continuing my example above, I use Firefox instead
of Edge) that's what I do.

And there's nothing special about Windows in this regard. The same is
often true of new version of most software. I don't like all changes
and when I can set things more to my liking with third-party
utilities/programs, that's what I do. As an example, I use many
Firefox extensions.

There's not a single program I have ever used, by Microsoft or anyone
else, in which everything is completely the way I would like it to be.
If I were in change of designing them, I would make a number of
changes,

And note that there would certainly be some people who wouldn't like
the changes I would make. We're all different, work in different ways,
and have different likes and dislikes. That's why options in programs
are good; in a sense, using a third party utility/program is
exercising an option that just wasn't built in.

You said "need" above. No I don't "need" to do that. I do it because I
want to and prefer the result if I do.

>
>> But I do think it's best to stay up-to-date with Windows versions,
>> primarily because sooner or later some hardware or program or an
>> updated version of a program you run is released and you want or need
>> it. And when that happens, you may find that it won't run with an
>> older Windows version.

> And *if* such a thing happens, which isn't all that likely,

On the contrary, I think it's virtually guaranteed for most people.
The only questions are what hardware, what software, and when does it
happen.

>it's early
>enough to consider 'upgrading' to a newer Windows version. BTW, "an
>updated version of a program you run" is even less important/common,
>because in most cases you can just continue to use the 'old' working
>version.

True of many programs, but far from all.

>> Another reason is that if you let a version or two go by before you
>> upgrade to the latest version, most people will find it harder to
>> adapt to all the changes in the new version. Getting changes a little
>> at a time is easier.
>
> 'True', but it's probably better to have a week of horror

What you might find "a week of horror," for many other people might be
many weeks of continuous problems trying to figure out to how to do
things.

>instead of
>many years of constant annoyance from changing/breaking stuff.

I've been running Windows 11 since it was first released--about a year
and a half now.. I have had *no* constant annoyance. Almost no
annoyances at all. don't remember having any problems with something
breaking and the things that were changed that I wanted back the way
they were, I adjusted by choosing options and using third-party
software almost from day 1.

Yes, it would have been better if those options were built into
Windows; an example is the inability to have a vertical task bar
without using a third-party program. Perhaps that could be called an
annoyance, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a very minor annoyance
since it can be fixed so easily and so quickly.

Yes, I know there are some people who refuse to use third-party
programs and are therefore stuck with whatever is built into Windows.
Sometimes they can't use a third-party program because their employee
forbids, so yes, those thing that I consider minor can be very major
for them. But for home users of Windows 11, refusal to use a
third-party program is just foolishness as far as I'm concerned.
Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on producing quality software and in
many cases they are way behind the competition in my opinion.

Is Windows 11 perfect? No. Far from it. Yes, I wish it had been
designed more to my liking, but it's been easy to adjust it more to my
liking and I'm generally happy with it.

> But yes, I have 'upgraded' too, but only because 1) a new machine came
>with Windows 11 (and most likely could not be 'downgraded' to 8.1) and

Couldn't you clean install 8.1?

>2) the wife's 8.1 machine ran out of (Extended) support , so I 'had' to
>'upgrade' it to 10).

Had to? Not as far as I'm concerned.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<u04cl0.j98.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Thu, 30 Mar 2023 14:16 UTC

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On 29 Mar 2023 12:33:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
> >> >>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
> >> >>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
> >> >> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I think you're dead wrong.
> >>
> >>
> >> OK, we all have different opinions and different preferences. See
> >> below for a couple of comments.
> >>
> >> > And this is why.
> >> >
> >> >This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.
> >> >
> >> >http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E
> >> >
> >> >Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
> >> >have the technical capability to do that.
> >> >
> >> >The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.
> >>
> >> I don't use the Windows task manager. Instead I use the third-party
> >> Task Manager Deluxe, which I think is much better.
> >>
> >> I don't think everything built into Windows 11 is great, nor did I
> >> think everything in any prior version was great. So I use third-party
> >> utilities and application programs whenever I think they are better
> >> than what comes with Windows or what Microsoft offers separately. I
> >> won't bother to list them all, but there are a bunch besides Task
> >> Manager Deluxe, starting with Start11, Winaero Tweaker, and Firefox.
> >
> > So basically you're saying you need third-party utilities/programs to
> >un-break stuff in the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the
> >earlier version(s)! :-( I think you just made Paul's point.
>
> No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
>
> I wasn't talking about broken stuff. Yes, occasionally something
> doesn't work the way it's supposed to, but in my experience that's
> been rare.
>
> What I was talking about was stuff that doesn't work the way *I* would
> like it to. Note the stress on "I." Just because I don't like the way
> something works doesn't mean everybody doesn't. Some people like
> changes that I dislike. As an example, I know several people who like
> and use Edge, even though I think it's the worst of all browsers.
>
> So whenever I can make things more to my liking with third-party
> utilities/programs (continuing my example above, I use Firefox instead
> of Edge) that's what I do.
>
> And there's nothing special about Windows in this regard. The same is
> often true of new version of most software. I don't like all changes
> and when I can set things more to my liking with third-party
> utilities/programs, that's what I do. As an example, I use many
> Firefox extensions.

"I don't like all changes" is what I meant by "to un-break stuff in
the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the earlier
version(s)!". Many and even most changes are for no good reason and - as
also you've said - they *change* things, instead of offering new
functionality and leaving the old functionality in tact.

> There's not a single program I have ever used, by Microsoft or anyone
> else, in which everything is completely the way I would like it to be.
> If I were in change of designing them, I would make a number of
> changes,
>
> And note that there would certainly be some people who wouldn't like
> the changes I would make. We're all different, work in different ways,
> and have different likes and dislikes. That's why options in programs
> are good; in a sense, using a third party utility/program is
> exercising an option that just wasn't built in.
>
> You said "need" above. No I don't "need" to do that. I do it because I
> want to and prefer the result if I do.

Effectively, people *do* need to do that or be forced to live with the
changed and often decreased/worse functionality. The change is forced on
us, whether we like it or not.

> >> But I do think it's best to stay up-to-date with Windows versions,
> >> primarily because sooner or later some hardware or program or an
> >> updated version of a program you run is released and you want or need
> >> it. And when that happens, you may find that it won't run with an
> >> older Windows version.
>
> > And *if* such a thing happens, which isn't all that likely,
>
> On the contrary, I think it's virtually guaranteed for most people.
> The only questions are what hardware, what software, and when does it
> happen.

I don't think it's all that likely. People often 'upgrade' because
they think they have to or/and they throw their hands in the air at the
first minor hurdle.

Anyway, I haven't had any real compatibility problems yet in two
decades. But yes, that's anecdotal (non-)evidence and so is yours, so we
better leave it at YMMV.

> >it's early
> >enough to consider 'upgrading' to a newer Windows version. BTW, "an
> >updated version of a program you run" is even less important/common,
> >because in most cases you can just continue to use the 'old' working
> >version.
>
> True of many programs, but far from all.

I'll settle for "most"! :-)

> >> Another reason is that if you let a version or two go by before you
> >> upgrade to the latest version, most people will find it harder to
> >> adapt to all the changes in the new version. Getting changes a little
> >> at a time is easier.
> >
> > 'True', but it's probably better to have a week of horror
>
> What you might find "a week of horror," for many other people might be
> many weeks of continuous problems trying to figure out to how to do
> things.

Well, the new version is supposed to be "better", "improved", etc.,
isn't it? So it should be a piece of cake! :-) Just kidding.

FWIW, I jumped from 8.1. to 11, so a *BIG* jump and it only took about
a week.

> >instead of
> >many years of constant annoyance from changing/breaking stuff.
>
>
> I've been running Windows 11 since it was first released--about a year
> and a half now.. I have had *no* constant annoyance. Almost no
> annoyances at all. don't remember having any problems with something
> breaking and the things that were changed that I wanted back the way
> they were, I adjusted by choosing options and using third-party
> software almost from day 1.

I wasn't referring to just Windows 11, but to the whole Windows
lifecycle, i.e. from XP on. For me that's 20 years. From 8.1, it's 8
years.

As to breaking things, I lost track on how many things Windows 11
broke in my five months of (real) use. Most things broke in the last
month (granted, I delayed 22H2 because of extended (3 month) absence).
And by broken I also mean (substantially) changed functionality which
needs fixing or working around.

This month list from the top of my head:

- Broken Command Prompt windows (Windows Terminal instead of Windows
Console Host).
- Totally changed Notepad,
- Icons stuck (can not be moved) on Taskbar.
- Windows Update restarting the system without warning (on the Taskbar).
- Internet access broken by new driver (installed by Windows Update)
or/and 'something' changing an advanced driver property.

> Yes, it would have been better if those options were built into
> Windows; an example is the inability to have a vertical task bar
> without using a third-party program. Perhaps that could be called an
> annoyance, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a very minor annoyance
> since it can be fixed so easily and so quickly.
>
> Yes, I know there are some people who refuse to use third-party
> programs and are therefore stuck with whatever is built into Windows.
> Sometimes they can't use a third-party program because their employee
> forbids, so yes, those thing that I consider minor can be very major
> for them. But for home users of Windows 11, refusal to use a
> third-party program is just foolishness as far as I'm concerned.
> Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on producing quality software and in
> many cases they are way behind the competition in my opinion.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<4t8b2i9m9h1mm62aqt1pqs7g7bchrrbfk9@4ax.com>

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 08:45:33 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Thu, 30 Mar 2023 15:45 UTC

On 30 Mar 2023 14:16:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Mar 2023 12:33:29 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:55:59 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 3/27/2023 10:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:33:12 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> In alt.comp.microsoft.windows Minoru Osaka <minoru.osaka@asahi.net> wrote:
>> >> >>>> I have Windows 10 Home & Pro - which is nagging me to move to Windows 11.
>> >> >>>> I do NOT wish to establish a Microsoft Account under any circumstances.
>> >> >>>> If I move to Windows 11 (on Pro or Home) - must I establish a M$ Account?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Or better. Don't upgrade. :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I completely disagree. In my opinion, for almost everyone, it's almost
>> >> >> always the best choice to run on the latest version of Windows.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I think you're dead wrong.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> OK, we all have different opinions and different preferences. See
>> >> below for a couple of comments.
>> >>
>> >> > And this is why.
>> >> >
>> >> >This is what happens when reach exceeds grasp.
>> >> >
>> >> >http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3CXnsAFD496534B6Fnilch1%40wheedledeedle.moc%3E
>> >> >
>> >> >Windows 7 would not do that, because it does not
>> >> >have the technical capability to do that.
>> >> >
>> >> >The Task Manager is no longer sufficient to keep control of your machine.
>> >>
>> >> I don't use the Windows task manager. Instead I use the third-party
>> >> Task Manager Deluxe, which I think is much better.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think everything built into Windows 11 is great, nor did I
>> >> think everything in any prior version was great. So I use third-party
>> >> utilities and application programs whenever I think they are better
>> >> than what comes with Windows or what Microsoft offers separately. I
>> >> won't bother to list them all, but there are a bunch besides Task
>> >> Manager Deluxe, starting with Start11, Winaero Tweaker, and Firefox.
>> >
>> > So basically you're saying you need third-party utilities/programs to
>> >un-break stuff in the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the
>> >earlier version(s)! :-( I think you just made Paul's point.
>>
>> No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
>>
>> I wasn't talking about broken stuff. Yes, occasionally something
>> doesn't work the way it's supposed to, but in my experience that's
>> been rare.
>>
>> What I was talking about was stuff that doesn't work the way *I* would
>> like it to. Note the stress on "I." Just because I don't like the way
>> something works doesn't mean everybody doesn't. Some people like
>> changes that I dislike. As an example, I know several people who like
>> and use Edge, even though I think it's the worst of all browsers.
>>
>> So whenever I can make things more to my liking with third-party
>> utilities/programs (continuing my example above, I use Firefox instead
>> of Edge) that's what I do.
>>
>> And there's nothing special about Windows in this regard. The same is
>> often true of new version of most software. I don't like all changes
>> and when I can set things more to my liking with third-party
>> utilities/programs, that's what I do. As an example, I use many
>> Firefox extensions.
>
> "I don't like all changes" is what I meant by "to un-break stuff in
>the newer Windows version, which wasn't broken in the earlier
>version(s)!".

OK. I didn't take it that way,

>Many and even most changes are for no good reason

We completely agree on that. They need to have a substantial number of
changes, or else nobody will upgrade, Almost nobody wants to upgrade
to something that's essentially the same as what they are running.

One other point: I think Microsoft wanted to make Windows more like
smart phones and tablets, because if it continued being very
different, many young people would never use it.

>and - as
>also you've said - they *change* things, instead of offering new
>functionality and leaving the old functionality in tact.

Yes, yes, yes! Offer new functionality as an option, or even make it
the default and keep the old functionality as an option. *Never*
remove old functionality, since if you do, it will undoubtedly piss
off many people. That goes for Microsoft and all other software
companies.

>> There's not a single program I have ever used, by Microsoft or anyone
>> else, in which everything is completely the way I would like it to be.
>> If I were in change of designing them, I would make a number of
>> changes,
>>
>> And note that there would certainly be some people who wouldn't like
>> the changes I would make. We're all different, work in different ways,
>> and have different likes and dislikes. That's why options in programs
>> are good; in a sense, using a third party utility/program is
>> exercising an option that just wasn't built in.
>>
>> You said "need" above. No I don't "need" to do that. I do it because I
>> want to and prefer the result if I do.
>
> Effectively, people *do* need to do that or be forced to live with the
>changed and often decreased/worse functionality. The change is forced on
>us, whether we like it or not.

We disagree. Many people continue to use older versions of Windows.

>> >> But I do think it's best to stay up-to-date with Windows versions,
>> >> primarily because sooner or later some hardware or program or an
>> >> updated version of a program you run is released and you want or need
>> >> it. And when that happens, you may find that it won't run with an
>> >> older Windows version.
>>
>> > And *if* such a thing happens, which isn't all that likely,
>>
>> On the contrary, I think it's virtually guaranteed for most people.
>> The only questions are what hardware, what software, and when does it
>> happen.
>
> I don't think it's all that likely. People often 'upgrade' because
>they think they have to

Alas, yes. That's true of *many* people. They think they do but they
seldom have to.

> or/and they throw their hands in the air at the
>first minor hurdle.

Alas, yes. Instead of finding out how to fix it.

..
> Anyway, I haven't had any real compatibility problems yet in two
>decades.

I haven't either, but I stay up-to-date with all my software, and even
replace things like older printers and scanners periodically.

But not everyone does what I (and you?) do, and sooner or later, they
run into compatibility problems. As an example, I've often seen
questions in the newsgroups and forums like "I Just upgraded to the
new version of Windows and now my (old) XXXX printer doesn't work.
What can I do?" The answer, of course, is "buy a new printer that's
supported in the new version of Windows."

>But yes, that's anecdotal (non-)evidence and so is yours, so we
>better leave it at YMMV.

>> >it's early
>> >enough to consider 'upgrading' to a newer Windows version. BTW, "an
>> >updated version of a program you run" is even less important/common,
>> >because in most cases you can just continue to use the 'old' working
>> >version.
>>
>> True of many programs, but far from all.
>
> I'll settle for "most"! :-)

Depends of how old the program version is. If it's a recent version,
but not the current one, yes, most. If it's a lot older, few.

>> >> Another reason is that if you let a version or two go by before you
>> >> upgrade to the latest version, most people will find it harder to
>> >> adapt to all the changes in the new version. Getting changes a little
>> >> at a time is easier.
>> >
>> > 'True', but it's probably better to have a week of horror
>>
>> What you might find "a week of horror," for many other people might be
>> many weeks of continuous problems trying to figure out to how to do
>> things.
>
> Well, the new version is supposed to be "better", "improved", etc.,
>isn't it? So it should be a piece of cake! :-) Just kidding.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<u04f3r$v2ph$1@dont-email.me>

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From: MR...@invalid.invalid (Manuram)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to
establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:00:00 +0100
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 by: Manuram - Thu, 30 Mar 2023 17:00 UTC

On 30/03/2023 15:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> I don't think it's all that likely. People often 'upgrade' because
> they think they have to or/and they throw their hands in the air at the
> first minor hurdle.
People are not quite as stupid as you think they are. People keep buying
new stuff and invariably they get new things installed in it.

General users don't go out of their way to upgrade their machine. They
have better things to do than to spend an hour or two upgrading their
machine. They might have somebody in the house who is keeping track of
the systems but upgrading normally takes place when the machine goes to
the technician for repair. The technician might say that there is a new
Windows Operating system so I have decided to upgrade your machine
because it is free.

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<u04qhf.714.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.neodome.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
Date: 30 Mar 2023 18:13:42 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:13 UTC

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On 30 Mar 2023 14:16:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
> >Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
[...]

We indeed agree more than we disagree and if/when we 'disagree' we do
so amably! :-)

Just to clarify one minor, but important, point:

> >> I've been running Windows 11 since it was first released--about a year
> >> and a half now.. I have had *no* constant annoyance. Almost no
> >> annoyances at all. don't remember having any problems with something
> >> breaking and the things that were changed that I wanted back the way
> >> they were, I adjusted by choosing options and using third-party
> >> software almost from day 1.
> >
> > I wasn't referring to just Windows 11, but to the whole Windows
> >lifecycle, i.e. from XP on. For me that's 20 years. From 8.1, it's 8
> >years.
>
> I started with Windows 2.0 and have run every version since then,
> except for the NT versions (an aside: I even ran Windows 3.11, and not
> just WFWG 3.11). For me if's 30+ years. My comment applies to all
> those versions.

With "from XP on", I meant the real Windows versions, based on the NT
architecture, not the 'toys' which came before that.

FYI, I used Windows from Windows 1.0 (aka Windows 286 or 386), so
that's also 30++ years (Wikipedia says that it was released on November
20, 1985). Touched some of the 9X etc. versions and used the NT
versions.

And before (and after) the Microsoft Windows versions, I used
windowing [1] software on UNIX systems.

[1] It also had "Windows" in the name, but Microsoft extorted 'us' and
others to give up use of the term Windows, so that they (MS) could
trademark it.

[...]

Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?

<u04sjv.eoc.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-11,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Subject: Re: I have Windows 10 - to move to Windows 11 - do I need to establish a Microsoft Account?
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:49 UTC

[Newsgroups restored. Don't strip newsgroups without (very good) reason.]

Manuram <MR@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/03/2023 15:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > I don't think it's all that likely. People often 'upgrade' because
> > they think they have to or/and they throw their hands in the air at the
> > first minor hurdle.
>
> People are not quite as stupid as you think they are.

Easy does it! You might want to get that mindreader of yours fixed. I
never said they are stupid.

> People keep buying
> new stuff and invariably they get new things installed in it.

True, but I fail to see how that's relevant to my point(s).

> General users don't go out of their way to upgrade their machine. They
> have better things to do than to spend an hour or two upgrading their
> machine. They might have somebody in the house who is keeping track of
> the systems but upgrading normally takes place when the machine goes to
> the technician for repair. The technician might say that there is a new
> Windows Operating system so I have decided to upgrade your machine
> because it is free.

I don't think we were talking about "General users", at least I wasn't
and I don't think Ken was either.

We're mainly talking about somewhat savy users, i.e. the kind of users
who do search, do visit forums, subscribe to Usenet? :-), etc., but even
those users often 'upgrade' for no good reason.

Also note that 'upgrade' includes replacing a system by a new one -
especially laptops, etc. - which has a newer Windows version. (As I
mentioned, guilty as charged.)

Other than that, welcome to the group(s)!

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