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computers / comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action / Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

SubjectAuthor
* Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseSpalls Hurgenson
`* Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseJAB
 `* Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseSpalls Hurgenson
  +- Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseDimensional Traveler
  `* Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseJAB
   `* Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseSpalls Hurgenson
    `- Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the MetaverseJAB

1
Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 00:45:18 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 04:45 UTC

It's been a while... time for another ramble!

So, honestly, does anybody care about this latest push - by Facebook
mainly, but by others too - about the creation of a 'metaverse'
network?

It's not a new idea - in fiction, a shared graphical network dates
back at least to Gibson's "Cyberpunk" - but it's been attempted in
actuality numerous times since then. Sierra's On-Line's early attempts
at Internet dominance had you create 2D avatars with which you
interacted with other users. In the late '90s, VRML was briefly the
hot thing, where businesses created 3D representations of their stores
and business to be viewed through a web-browser. "Second Life"
combined the two - a social network and a vast 3D rendered world - and
for a while was hyped up as "Web 2.0" until it devolved into a
universe of furry porn and flying penises. So why is this time
supposed to be different?

Is it because this time there's VR?

Who really wants this?

I mean, I don't, but I'm a self-admitted grognard and misanthrope. The
new doesn't frighten me, but neither do I accept it based on its
novelty alone; it needs to prove itself. Nothing the proposed
metaverse networks - in any of their promised forms - seems
interesting to me. None of my friends and colleagues show any interest
in it either, beyond mild curiosity. Of course, I trend towards an
older demographic; maybe it's aimed at the youth? Except the few
children I do have access to - admittedly all family, and thus of a
similar background and mindset - don't seem inspired by it either.

What problem is Meta supposed to solve?

From a business standpoint, it's obvious. Facebook loves the idea of
creating a giant network where everything everyone does is under its
umbrella. No more escaping to the Playstation for gaming, or to WeChat
for interacting with friends, or even Real Life for a concert. Make
everything virtual and you never escape their gaze. And it's more than
just the Zuckerbergian wet dream of data-gathering every instant of
everybody's life; think of the money from all the licensing
opportunities. Want to show your wares - your game, your music, your
IP - on Meta's Metaverse? Pay up, chum. Plus, Facebook isn't cool
anymore; the youth at best treat it like a utility, at worst avoid it
altogether. But a "Ready Player One" cyberworld? That'd bring 'em
back, right?

Epic Games, alternately, sees the opportunities provided by the
necessities of a network using shared assets. You can't jump from game
to game right now because everything is running on different software,
on different graphics engines. But if the underlying framework was
standardized - say, onto a platform renowned for its ease of use and
graphical fidelity like Unreal Engine - the owner of that platform
could make bank. Or Amazon, which not only drools over the
data-gathering possibilities, but also the opportunity to sell lots
and lots of server capacity that such a shared network would demand.

But these are all business needs, and not something the customers
wants. The metaverse seems a solution looking for a problem.

That there's some interest in the idea is undeniable; as mentioned,
it's been part of our fiction - our dreams - for decades, if not more.
Products like "Fortnite" and "Roblox" prove there's demand; people
socialize on those platforms as much as they play games (Fortnite has
even hosted concerts), and user-generated content creation is a major
draw for players. But do these prove a desire for a larger networked
world? Or is this all just the latest fad, to be forgotten as soon as
the next big thing comes around?

So I guess that's the point of this ramble; that's the question I'm
dancing around. Is the metaverse the future or not? Is it something
people want, or just a rehashed gimmick, a pretty 3D-rendered shell
that poorly duplicates the existing functionality of the Internet?
That it will be created seems likely, given the money being poured
into the projects, but if they make it, will anyone come?

Will you?

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:01:18 +0100
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 by: JAB - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 10:01 UTC

On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> It's been a while... time for another ramble!
>
> So, honestly, does anybody care about this latest push - by Facebook
> mainly, but by others too - about the creation of a 'metaverse'
> network?
>
> It's not a new idea - in fiction, a shared graphical network dates
> back at least to Gibson's "Cyberpunk" - but it's been attempted in
> actuality numerous times since then. Sierra's On-Line's early attempts
> at Internet dominance had you create 2D avatars with which you
> interacted with other users. In the late '90s, VRML was briefly the
> hot thing, where businesses created 3D representations of their stores
> and business to be viewed through a web-browser. "Second Life"
> combined the two - a social network and a vast 3D rendered world - and
> for a while was hyped up as "Web 2.0" until it devolved into a
> universe of furry porn and flying penises. So why is this time
> supposed to be different?
>
> Is it because this time there's VR?
>
> Who really wants this?
>
> I mean, I don't, but I'm a self-admitted grognard and misanthrope. The
> new doesn't frighten me, but neither do I accept it based on its
> novelty alone; it needs to prove itself. Nothing the proposed
> metaverse networks - in any of their promised forms - seems
> interesting to me. None of my friends and colleagues show any interest
> in it either, beyond mild curiosity. Of course, I trend towards an
> older demographic; maybe it's aimed at the youth? Except the few
> children I do have access to - admittedly all family, and thus of a
> similar background and mindset - don't seem inspired by it either.
>
> What problem is Meta supposed to solve?
>
> From a business standpoint, it's obvious. Facebook loves the idea of
> creating a giant network where everything everyone does is under its
> umbrella. No more escaping to the Playstation for gaming, or to WeChat
> for interacting with friends, or even Real Life for a concert. Make
> everything virtual and you never escape their gaze. And it's more than
> just the Zuckerbergian wet dream of data-gathering every instant of
> everybody's life; think of the money from all the licensing
> opportunities. Want to show your wares - your game, your music, your
> IP - on Meta's Metaverse? Pay up, chum. Plus, Facebook isn't cool
> anymore; the youth at best treat it like a utility, at worst avoid it
> altogether. But a "Ready Player One" cyberworld? That'd bring 'em
> back, right?
>
> Epic Games, alternately, sees the opportunities provided by the
> necessities of a network using shared assets. You can't jump from game
> to game right now because everything is running on different software,
> on different graphics engines. But if the underlying framework was
> standardized - say, onto a platform renowned for its ease of use and
> graphical fidelity like Unreal Engine - the owner of that platform
> could make bank. Or Amazon, which not only drools over the
> data-gathering possibilities, but also the opportunity to sell lots
> and lots of server capacity that such a shared network would demand.
>
> But these are all business needs, and not something the customers
> wants. The metaverse seems a solution looking for a problem.
>
> That there's some interest in the idea is undeniable; as mentioned,
> it's been part of our fiction - our dreams - for decades, if not more.
> Products like "Fortnite" and "Roblox" prove there's demand; people
> socialize on those platforms as much as they play games (Fortnite has
> even hosted concerts), and user-generated content creation is a major
> draw for players. But do these prove a desire for a larger networked
> world? Or is this all just the latest fad, to be forgotten as soon as
> the next big thing comes around?
>
> So I guess that's the point of this ramble; that's the question I'm
> dancing around. Is the metaverse the future or not? Is it something
> people want, or just a rehashed gimmick, a pretty 3D-rendered shell
> that poorly duplicates the existing functionality of the Internet?
> That it will be created seems likely, given the money being poured
> into the projects, but if they make it, will anyone come?
>
> Will you?
>

I honestly don't know as on the one hand I'm just not sure what you as a
consumer really get out of it. The big but, it never ceases to surprise
me the amount of users of Facewank that use it as platform that seems to
be to try and add to the own perceived self-importance. I've got an ill
informed opinion and I demand that everyone gets to see it.

Personally I have no interest in it so the only reason I could see me
using it is if that the only option that's practical, a bit like the way
I view Facewank.

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 14:29:14 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:29 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:01:18 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> It's been a while... time for another ramble!

>> So I guess that's the point of this ramble; that's the question I'm
>> dancing around. Is the metaverse the future or not? Is it something
>> people want, or just a rehashed gimmick, a pretty 3D-rendered shell
>> that poorly duplicates the existing functionality of the Internet?
>> That it will be created seems likely, given the money being poured
>> into the projects, but if they make it, will anyone come?
>> Will you?

>I honestly don't know as on the one hand I'm just not sure what you as a
>consumer really get out of it. The big but, it never ceases to surprise
>me the amount of users of Facewank that use it as platform that seems to
>be to try and add to the own perceived self-importance. I've got an ill
>informed opinion and I demand that everyone gets to see it.

The concept of a 3D simulated world - possibly augmented with VR -
where you can wander about and do things (chat, surf, see a movie,
play games) sounds nifty and exciting... but then so do all those
touch-enabled holographic displays you see in movies (e.g., "Minority
Report"). But when actually using it, once you get past the initial
wow-factor, you quickly realize how impractical they are. 3D
metaverses have been tried repeatedly before, and they've never
achieved more than niche status.

Even were Facebook not involved (and there are other attempts to
create similar metaverses), I just don't see what this newest attempt
is offering that differs from previous iterations. After the
wowie-zowie! effect is over, it just doesn't seem to offer anything
better than current offerings.

In many ways, we already have a metaverse, of course; there already is
an interconnected network where you can surf, chat, watch movies, play
games, etc. It doesn't have a unified 3D-rendered interface, of
course, but other than that it's everything that was promised in those
old sci-fi novels and movies. Of course, to companies like Facebook,
Amazon, etc. it's a flawed creation, since it's not entirely under
their control... which is largely what the drive to create a metaverse
is really about. But you don't see a lot of people clamoring to make
YouTube a 3D-rendered realm, so you have to wonder if the demand for
such a thing exists outside the dreams of C-level executives at major
technology companies.

>Personally I have no interest in it so the only reason I could see me
>using it is if that the only option that's practical, a bit like the way
>I view Facewank.

But like you, I have to wonder: am I not seeing it just because I'm
not the market for that sort of thing? Would "The Kids" really prefer
to live in a virtual world like that, or would they -after a few weeks
of fascination - go back to the conveninence and speed of 2D text and
images? I can't say.

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:59:48 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:59 UTC

On 4/27/2022 11:29 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:01:18 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> It's been a while... time for another ramble!
>
>>> So I guess that's the point of this ramble; that's the question I'm
>>> dancing around. Is the metaverse the future or not? Is it something
>>> people want, or just a rehashed gimmick, a pretty 3D-rendered shell
>>> that poorly duplicates the existing functionality of the Internet?
>>> That it will be created seems likely, given the money being poured
>>> into the projects, but if they make it, will anyone come?
>
>>> Will you?
>
>> I honestly don't know as on the one hand I'm just not sure what you as a
>> consumer really get out of it. The big but, it never ceases to surprise
>> me the amount of users of Facewank that use it as platform that seems to
>> be to try and add to the own perceived self-importance. I've got an ill
>> informed opinion and I demand that everyone gets to see it.
>
> The concept of a 3D simulated world - possibly augmented with VR -
> where you can wander about and do things (chat, surf, see a movie,
> play games) sounds nifty and exciting... but then so do all those
> touch-enabled holographic displays you see in movies (e.g., "Minority
> Report"). But when actually using it, once you get past the initial
> wow-factor, you quickly realize how impractical they are. 3D
> metaverses have been tried repeatedly before, and they've never
> achieved more than niche status.
>
> Even were Facebook not involved (and there are other attempts to
> create similar metaverses), I just don't see what this newest attempt
> is offering that differs from previous iterations. After the
> wowie-zowie! effect is over, it just doesn't seem to offer anything
> better than current offerings.
>
> In many ways, we already have a metaverse, of course; there already is
> an interconnected network where you can surf, chat, watch movies, play
> games, etc. It doesn't have a unified 3D-rendered interface, of
> course, but other than that it's everything that was promised in those
> old sci-fi novels and movies. Of course, to companies like Facebook,
> Amazon, etc. it's a flawed creation, since it's not entirely under
> their control... which is largely what the drive to create a metaverse
> is really about. But you don't see a lot of people clamoring to make
> YouTube a 3D-rendered realm, so you have to wonder if the demand for
> such a thing exists outside the dreams of C-level executives at major
> technology companies.
>
>
>> Personally I have no interest in it so the only reason I could see me
>> using it is if that the only option that's practical, a bit like the way
>> I view Facewank.
>
> But like you, I have to wonder: am I not seeing it just because I'm
> not the market for that sort of thing? Would "The Kids" really prefer
> to live in a virtual world like that, or would they -after a few weeks
> of fascination - go back to the conveninence and speed of 2D text and
> images? I can't say.
>
They would live in it as soon as 2D text and image apps were available
inside the virtual world. ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

<t4djtn$ilg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:40:22 +0100
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 by: JAB - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:40 UTC

On 27/04/2022 19:29, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:01:18 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> It's been a while... time for another ramble!
>
>>> So I guess that's the point of this ramble; that's the question I'm
>>> dancing around. Is the metaverse the future or not? Is it something
>>> people want, or just a rehashed gimmick, a pretty 3D-rendered shell
>>> that poorly duplicates the existing functionality of the Internet?
>>> That it will be created seems likely, given the money being poured
>>> into the projects, but if they make it, will anyone come?
>
>>> Will you?
>
>> I honestly don't know as on the one hand I'm just not sure what you as a
>> consumer really get out of it. The big but, it never ceases to surprise
>> me the amount of users of Facewank that use it as platform that seems to
>> be to try and add to the own perceived self-importance. I've got an ill
>> informed opinion and I demand that everyone gets to see it.
>
> The concept of a 3D simulated world - possibly augmented with VR -
> where you can wander about and do things (chat, surf, see a movie,
> play games) sounds nifty and exciting... but then so do all those
> touch-enabled holographic displays you see in movies (e.g., "Minority
> Report"). But when actually using it, once you get past the initial
> wow-factor, you quickly realize how impractical they are. 3D
> metaverses have been tried repeatedly before, and they've never
> achieved more than niche status.
>
> Even were Facebook not involved (and there are other attempts to
> create similar metaverses), I just don't see what this newest attempt
> is offering that differs from previous iterations. After the
> wowie-zowie! effect is over, it just doesn't seem to offer anything
> better than current offerings.
>
> In many ways, we already have a metaverse, of course; there already is
> an interconnected network where you can surf, chat, watch movies, play
> games, etc. It doesn't have a unified 3D-rendered interface, of
> course, but other than that it's everything that was promised in those
> old sci-fi novels and movies. Of course, to companies like Facebook,
> Amazon, etc. it's a flawed creation, since it's not entirely under
> their control... which is largely what the drive to create a metaverse
> is really about. But you don't see a lot of people clamoring to make
> YouTube a 3D-rendered realm, so you have to wonder if the demand for
> such a thing exists outside the dreams of C-level executives at major
> technology companies.
>
>
>> Personally I have no interest in it so the only reason I could see me
>> using it is if that the only option that's practical, a bit like the way
>> I view Facewank.
>
> But like you, I have to wonder: am I not seeing it just because I'm
> not the market for that sort of thing? Would "The Kids" really prefer
> to live in a virtual world like that, or would they -after a few weeks
> of fascination - go back to the conveninence and speed of 2D text and
> images? I can't say.
>

A slightly different topic but it does seem sometimes you do get
technology just for the sake of it. Home appliances seem a good place to
start. Changing the heating from an app or by voice, I can see that.
Being able to start the machine via an app - what's the point I still
have to put the washing in don't I. Then we have our digital kettle and
toaster set. The kettle is useful as it has different temperatures which
is really good if you have different types of tea which require it. The
toaster, digital in the since means instead of having a knob to control
the 'brownish' you instead have +/- buttons and little leds. It really
doesn't give you anything except that it matches the look of the kettle.

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:06:48 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:06 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:40:22 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>> On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>> It's been a while... time for another ramble!

>A slightly different topic but it does seem sometimes you do get
>technology just for the sake of it. Home appliances seem a good place to
>start. Changing the heating from an app or by voice, I can see that.
>Being able to start the machine via an app - what's the point I still
>have to put the washing in don't I. Then we have our digital kettle and
>toaster set. The kettle is useful as it has different temperatures which
>is really good if you have different types of tea which require it. The
>toaster, digital in the since means instead of having a knob to control
>the 'brownish' you instead have +/- buttons and little leds. It really
>doesn't give you anything except that it matches the look of the kettle.

The why is obvious: digital interfaces sell products. People think the
slick, knobless buttons are more technologically advanced and capable,
and thus they're getting more 'bang for their buck'. It's also cheaper
to manufacture; a simple programmable microcontroller costs less than
the dozens of buttons and knobs you'd need to provide similar
functionality.

(That a toaster needs so much functionality is debatable, of course.
But being able to boast your toaster can auto-start at a programmed
time and toast one side of the bread to 250 degrees and the other to
180 degrees sells machines...)

Sadly, our marketplace has devolved from "buy this because it works
and it will last" to "buy this because it's somehow better than what
you have", which leads to new stuff always having to do more than
older devices, even if it makes the core functionality worse.

If you really wanna get me started, though, there's the
Internet-of-Things enabled devices. There are, arguably, some
use-cases for some devices... but even those tend to be mostly unused
luxuries that do little to justify the added cost and security
vulnerabilities. Or those that demand an online account just to use a
device which shouldn't be online-enabled at all. Grrrr.

Douglas Adams once wrote, "1. Anything that is in the world when
you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the
way the world works. 2. Anything that's invented between when you’re
fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you
can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented after you're
thirty-five is against the natural order of things." I'm not quite to
step 3 yet (ignoring the age issues) but it is increasingly hard for
me to justify a lot of the so-called advancements being foisted upon
us. It's not that I don't want new and exciting technologies, it's
just that what we're getting is too often focused more on form than
useful function.

(ramble ramble ramble)

Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse

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Subject: Re: Random Ramble: Let's talk about the Metaverse
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:22:09 +0100
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 by: JAB - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:22 UTC

On 28/04/2022 16:06, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:40:22 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>>> On 26/04/2022 05:45, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>>>> It's been a while... time for another ramble!
>
>> A slightly different topic but it does seem sometimes you do get
>> technology just for the sake of it. Home appliances seem a good place to
>> start. Changing the heating from an app or by voice, I can see that.
>> Being able to start the machine via an app - what's the point I still
>> have to put the washing in don't I. Then we have our digital kettle and
>> toaster set. The kettle is useful as it has different temperatures which
>> is really good if you have different types of tea which require it. The
>> toaster, digital in the since means instead of having a knob to control
>> the 'brownish' you instead have +/- buttons and little leds. It really
>> doesn't give you anything except that it matches the look of the kettle.
>
> The why is obvious: digital interfaces sell products. People think the
> slick, knobless buttons are more technologically advanced and capable,
> and thus they're getting more 'bang for their buck'. It's also cheaper
> to manufacture; a simple programmable microcontroller costs less than
> the dozens of buttons and knobs you'd need to provide similar
> functionality.
>
> (That a toaster needs so much functionality is debatable, of course.
> But being able to boast your toaster can auto-start at a programmed
> time and toast one side of the bread to 250 degrees and the other to
> 180 degrees sells machines...)
>
> Sadly, our marketplace has devolved from "buy this because it works
> and it will last" to "buy this because it's somehow better than what
> you have", which leads to new stuff always having to do more than
> older devices, even if it makes the core functionality worse.
>
> If you really wanna get me started, though, there's the
> Internet-of-Things enabled devices. There are, arguably, some
> use-cases for some devices... but even those tend to be mostly unused
> luxuries that do little to justify the added cost and security
> vulnerabilities. Or those that demand an online account just to use a
> device which shouldn't be online-enabled at all. Grrrr.
>

I can't believe I'm talking about toasters but here goes anyway. In this
case I'm relatively sure that it's a make it look sleek and modern
thing, not for functionality, in the same way you also get reto
toasters. The price part I'm not convinced of in this case as 'value'
toasters still have a knob.

Personally we got it because I wanted the digital kettle for the
variable temperature and it's a brand that I trust to last. We got them
probably fifteen years ago and the toaster is still going strong
although the kettle developed a slight leak last year so had to be replaced.

Part of the problem I see it that because it will last costs money but
it's not a great selling point on its own so you then end up with the
additional costs of making it look nice and having functionality
basically for the sake of it. The other part, as you say, is companies
want to sell you newer products to replace the perfectly working product
you already have and this is how they convince you to do it. Mobile
phones are a really good example of this.

> Douglas Adams once wrote, "1. Anything that is in the world when
> you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the
> way the world works. 2. Anything that's invented between when you’re
> fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you
> can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented after you're
> thirty-five is against the natural order of things." I'm not quite to
> step 3 yet (ignoring the age issues) but it is increasingly hard for
> me to justify a lot of the so-called advancements being foisted upon
> us. It's not that I don't want new and exciting technologies, it's
> just that what we're getting is too often focused more on form than
> useful function.
>
> (ramble ramble ramble)

I'm sort of at a late stage 2 (also ignoring age issues) as if I look
back at say the last thirty years I think there's been some really great
things that ranging from the rise of the internet into more than porn
and gambling to having a smart phone with google maps (I'm rubbish at
reading maps). There's also been a lot of dross.

1
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