I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.

On Tue, 09 May 2023 07:47:07 -0400, Howard wrote:
>
> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5? SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.

Do you mean (a) 20 seconds to complete the shutduwn and
then it boots immediately, or (b) a short time to a
shutdown that then lasts 20 seconds?

If it's (a), you may have some file open in some
program and it takes a while to time out. Or some
program insists on first coming back fully from
hibernating -- e.g. to check for updates or for some
network resource -- before it will answer Windows'
request to close itself.

If it's (b), I got nothin'.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Tue, 9 May 2023 06:18:19 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrotG:

>On Tue, 09 May 2023 07:47:07 -0400, Howard wrote:
>>
>> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
>> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
>> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
>> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
>> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
>> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5? SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
>> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.
>
>Do you mean (a) 20 seconds to complete the shutduwn and
>then it boots immediately, or (b) a short time to a
>shutdown that then lasts 20 seconds?
>
>If it's (a), you may have some file open in some
>program and it takes a while to time out. Or some
>program insists on first coming back fully from
>hibernating -- e.g. to check for updates or for some
>network resource -- before it will answer Windows'
>request to close itself.
>
>If it's (b), I got nothin'.

It's b. The shutdown is immediate and then shutdown last about 20
second.

Le 09/05/2023, Howard a supposé :
> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.

The power supply cannot support the current surge required by 3 HD +
other peripherals (e.g. graphic card) on a cold start.
When rebooting the 3 HD are already at their nominal RPM.
Upgrade your PS, unless there is a BIOS option to delay powering of
some HD.

On 5/9/2023 10:56 AM, Howard wrote:
> On Tue, 9 May 2023 06:18:19 -0700, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrotG:
>
>> On Tue, 09 May 2023 07:47:07 -0400, Howard wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
>>> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
>>> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
>>> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
>>> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
>>> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5? SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
>>> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.
>>
>> Do you mean (a) 20 seconds to complete the shutduwn and
>> then it boots immediately, or (b) a short time to a
>> shutdown that then lasts 20 seconds?
>>
>> If it's (a), you may have some file open in some
>> program and it takes a while to time out. Or some
>> program insists on first coming back fully from
>> hibernating -- e.g. to check for updates or for some
>> network resource -- before it will answer Windows'
>> request to close itself.
>>
>> If it's (b), I got nothin'.
>
> It's b. The shutdown is immediate and then shutdown last about 20
> second.
>

I had this happen, and it happened one time, and just recently.

It was in Win10, on my 4930K. I selected Shutdown from the menu,
the usual shutdown sequence happens. Then I hear "whir" and
it's booting again. Even though I did nothing to select
such an option. Neither did I move a mouse or anything else.

There was no sign that it was Windows Update activity, because
that would be "Update and Shut Down", and there was no rotating
wheel either.

And the timing of the event, was "immediate". There was no
ten second delay for a "Wake On Carrier" event. It basically
started again, just right after it completed shutdown.

It's possible if some drivers get reinstalled or updated,
the "Allow This Device to Wake The Computer" gets set. But
that's the only kind of event I can think of, and that
should not do anything in S5. Maybe In S3 Sleep or S4 Hibernate,
the NIC could wake the computer, but as far as I know, S5
(soft off) is not set up to Wake on Wake Events.

If the BIOS Timer is set, it can wake on that. And that's how
some Windows Updates were done in the past. I'd hear the computer
start on its own, at like 3AM or 4AM. But Microsoft has stopped
doing that, for the most part.

This will give you some info on "powercfg" utility and how
to get information about the last wakeup. You would run this
stuff immediately after it happens. Don't wait for more reboots
to run this.

https://www.ghacks.net/2013/12/31/find-pc-wakes-stop/

Paul

On 09/05/2023 17:34, milsabords wrote:
> Le 09/05/2023, Howard a supposé :
>> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
>> an answer to on google.  When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
>> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
>> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
>> machine reboots without me doing anything.  I am running a Dell XPS
>> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
>> with three drives in it.  I have checked the power settings.
>
> The power supply cannot support the current surge required by 3 HD +
> other peripherals (e.g. graphic card) on a cold start.
> When rebooting the 3 HD are already at their nominal RPM.
> Upgrade your PS, unless there is a BIOS option to delay powering of some
> HD.

Surely it sounds like it IS making itself do a cold start rather than a
warm start?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 09/05/2023 17:47, Paul wrote:
> I had this happen, and it happened one time, and just recently.
>
> It was in Win10, on my 4930K. I selected Shutdown from the menu,
> the usual shutdown sequence happens. Then I hear "whir" and
> it's booting again. Even though I did nothing to select
> such an option. Neither did I move a mouse or anything else.

That sounds like you asked it to shutdown but it rebooted instead.
That doesn't seem to be what the OP is complaining about.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 09/05/2023 12:47, Howard wrote:
> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.

Perhaps see if there are any weird power settings in the BIOS settings?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Howard <Howard@Home.com> wrote:

> When I restart my pc, it usually reboots fine.

Since no time interval is specified for this case, it covers the 2nd
case.

> If the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
> machine reboots

Here you say "reboot". Before you said "restart". Restart is different
than reboot. A reboot shuts down the OS and disconnects power, and then
restarts the computer. That is a cold reboot. A soft or warm reboot
shuts down the OS, and then reloads it without losing power. A restart
is a soft/warm reboot.

https://www.minitool.com/news/windows-reboot-vs-reset-vs-restart-009.html

Because a restart aka soft reboot does not drop power, there is no time
needed to reload the video BIOS and system BIOS/UEFI as with a cold
reboot. Even worse during a cold reboot is if the CMOS copy of the BIOS
is corrupted, like the CMOS/RTC battery is weak or dead, and has to be
copied from EEPROM to CMOS again.

Do you have Fast Startup enabled in Windows? The faster startup time is
countered by a slower shutdown time to write a hibernation file
(hiberfil.sys).

https://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the-pros-and-cons-of-windows-10s-fast-startup-mode/

Because the computer went into hibernation mode (smaller because it is a
partial hibernation in that only the system state is recorded, and not
the Windows session along with all its processes), startup is faster.
The OS and drivers don't have to run again to reload their images into
memory.

Users like Fast Startup, because, well, it's faster to get Windows
ready. Users often do not stick around on a shutdown to ensure it
didn't stall, and it completed okay. They shutdown, and leave. They
don't notice the extra time for the shutdown to first write the
hibernation file. Because the OS and drivers get reloaded in the prior
state, problems that were present before the shutdown will be present
again after the startup. If, say, you are having a problem with
drivers, well their prior bad state gets reloaded into memory on
startup. A restart (cold or warm), that is no Fast Startup mode, will
force a fresh load of the OS and drivers to ensure they are initiatized
properly.

Take a look at the "Why You Might Want to Disable Fast Startup" section
of the howtogeek article.

I don't bother with any hibernation scheme. I have hibernation disabled
("powercfg /h off" in an admin command shell). That also means Fast
Startup is disabled. I want a clean load of the OS and drivers when I
start from a cold boot.

On 09/05/2023 15:56, Howard wrote:
> It's b. The shutdown is immediate and then shutdown last about 20
> second.

My guess is that the PC has not actually shutdown even if the display
goes off for 20 seconds. Instead of a normal Windows shutdown try a
forced shutdown by holding down the power switch. Then report what
happens after the next restart.

On Tue, 9 May 2023 19:03:16 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrotG:

There are no options in the bios. I am not doing fast startup. I have
no hibernate file. I click on restart, not shutdown. The problem only
happens if the machine has been idle for a while (at least one to two
hours). Otherwise, the restart is normal. I tried awakening all the
disks in the usb attached drive by opening each disk in explorer. It
made no difference.

On 5/9/23 04:47, Howard wrote:
> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.

Hi Howard,
How old is this computer?
I had one last week similar to what you describe,
where it would try to boot, get to random places,
shut off. Wait about five seconds and it powered
itself back on. Sometimes it did not make it past
BIOS/POST.
All the fans were operating okay and not clogged.
The heat sinks were cool. And it got worse with
time. A few times it almost logged into the
Windows. It was clearly a bad motherboard.
The unit was over 15 years old according to
the customer. Power supply was fine.
I removed the hard drive, which was fine and
temporarily mounted it to his new laptop
and copied his files over, which was all
he wanted anyway. He was done with the
old computer for some time, but did not
know how to transfer his files.
The old computer wound up in the dumpster.
You have a birthday coming up? Or father's
day? Time for a new computer?
Discount tech support: "Buy a new computer."
I would be extremely interested to find out
if you found a way to fix your unit!
-T

Le 09/05/2023, milsabords a supposé :

> Upgrade your PS, unless there is a BIOS option to delay powering of some HD.

Update: on my 8 years old desktop the BIOS has an option to set a delay
between power up and booting, to allow HD to spin up to speed.

I found the solution. The setting on my
Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure (new model)
needs to be set to "blue" sunchronization mode switch -- "When PC is
off, the device goes off in fifteen second". I previously had it set
to "Synchronization is OFF". This makes no sense but it works.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

On Wed, 10 May 2023 10:39:33 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrotG:

>On 5/9/23 04:47, Howard wrote:
>> I have a problem with restarting my Windows 10 pc which I can't find
>> an answer to on google. When I restart my pc, it usually reboots
>> fine. However, if the machine has been idle for a couple of hours, a
>> reboot causes a shutdown which lasts for about 20 seconds and then the
>> machine reboots without me doing anything. I am running a Dell XPS
>> 8930 and have Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure
>> with three drives in it. I have checked the power settings.
>
>
>Hi Howard,
>
>How old is this computer?
>
>I had one last week similar to what you describe,
>where it would try to boot, get to random places,
>shut off. Wait about five seconds and it powered
>itself back on. Sometimes it did not make it past
>BIOS/POST.
>
>All the fans were operating okay and not clogged.
>The heat sinks were cool. And it got worse with
>time. A few times it almost logged into the
>Windows. It was clearly a bad motherboard.
>The unit was over 15 years old according to
>the customer. Power supply was fine.
>
>I removed the hard drive, which was fine and
>temporarily mounted it to his new laptop
>and copied his files over, which was all
>he wanted anyway. He was done with the
>old computer for some time, but did not
>know how to transfer his files.
>
>The old computer wound up in the dumpster.
>
>You have a birthday coming up? Or father's
>day? Time for a new computer?
>
>Discount tech support: "Buy a new computer."
>
>I would be extremely interested to find out
>if you found a way to fix your unit!
>
>-T

On 5/11/23 04:26, Howard wrote:
> I found the solution. The setting on my
> Mediasonic PROBOX 4 Bay 3.5” SATA Hard Drive Enclosure (new model)
> needs to be set to "blue" sunchronization mode switch -- "When PC is
> off, the device goes off in fifteen second". I previously had it set
> to "Synchronization is OFF". This makes no sense but it works.
>
> Thank you all for your suggestions.
Hi Howard,
Awesome troubleshooting!
I had had external usb drive kill some of my
customers computers ability to boot. So it is
not as nuts as you might think. It all depends
on the USB chipset in your computer and how
well it is following specifications.
Thank you for getting back. It helps us all
refine our troubleshooting abilities.
:-)
-T

On 5/11/2023 4:08 AM, milsabords wrote:
> Le 09/05/2023, milsabords a supposé :
>
>> Upgrade your PS, unless there is a BIOS option to delay powering of some HD.
>
> Update: on my 8 years old desktop the BIOS has an option to set a delay between power up and booting, to allow HD to spin up to speed.

The delay used to be up around 35 seconds (max). This
value (the max time allocated), might have been in some
ATA spec.

There was one drive, that took maybe 26 seconds to spin up.
To give some idea how close to that limit a drive could go.

And it's not like this is some kind of magic. On mainframes,
it might be ten minutes before a drive is ready to go online
(purge air time after pack loaded). Some of the old drives,
the operator controls putting the unit online, after
the hepafilter has cleaned the air inside the drive. The 26
seconds, is for a conventional 3.5" drive.

Drive starting current varies. Small boot drives with one
platter, may use more starting current than large drives
with many platters. The motor controller (three phase), implements
a roughly constant current acceleration profile for the
spindle. With the extra current offered, a low capacity drive
might take 5 seconds, a higher capacity drive 10 seconds.
There aren't many drives left, which take 26 seconds.
The amount of current used, is programmable and at
the discretion of the HDD design engineer (every drive
is *custom* designed, it's not like they use cookie cutters
-- even the platter data layout and the "jitter" in the
transfer curve, are custom, and not an accident).

Spinup Load/operate
+------------+
Idc | | 1TB drive
12V | +---------- - -
------+ ---> Time

Spinup Load/operate
Idc +------------------------+ 6TB drive
12V | +---------- - -
------+ ---> Time

XXXXXXXXXXXX
Answers commands (like "ID command")

You can stagger spin on drives. Not all drives support
staggered spin. It's usually the larger ones. On SATA,
there is a pin (one of the 15 pins) that senses whether
3.3V is present or 0V is present on the pin, and the
spin behavior depends on that level. When you buy a new
drive and "it won't work", don't panic -- switch from
a five wire SATA power cable to a four wire SATA power
cable, and it will start to spin and work, as normal.

[Picture] "Shit, my new 8TB drive does not work!"

https://i.postimg.cc/ydLvPMNS/HDD-spin-control.gif

It's usually the larger capacity drives, that support
staggered spin. The larger capacity drives also have
some holes "drilled in the wrong place", on the drive
body, compared to "normal consumer drives". I have no
samples of the alternate hole pattern, so can't just
take a picture of one.

On a NAS with a SATA backplane, or a rack server with a
SATA backplane, the connectors in that case, have a
3.3V logic signal in place of the orange wire. And the
NAS microprocessor asserts the signal on the equivalent
of the orange wire, to control spinup. Sending 0V means
"OK, you can spin now".

Paul