On 11/03/2022 03:45, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/10/22 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 01:05, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>> Or maybe you just don't want to entertain what I'm
>>>    telling you ? If the chip shortages go on much longer
>>>    you won't have any choice. It's either get by with
>>>    a lot more analog solutions or NOTHING.
>>
>> To an extent, yes. But old cars continue to work,
>
>   The GreenWokies want them BANNED. The easiest way would
>   be to forbid insurance for cars of a certain age (and tech).
>
>   Can't keep reminding people that pre-digital DID work, and
>   didn't spy on you either.
>
>> and anyway what has happened is two massive supply train shocks -
>> COVID and Putin - and the market will - is - responding.
>
>   Not in an especially GOOD way alas ...
>
>> Its going to be a rough couple of years all right, but some semblance
>> of a new normality will emerge.
>
>   Yea, but WHAT "new normal" ???
>
Hard to tell. Its a complex chaotic non linear system, is the world economy.
Despite conspiracy theories, and politicians' claims, no one is in
charge of it, either.,
So it will find a new strange attractor somewhere. Might be 95%
population collapse and back to the iron age. If someone doesn't kick
the Greens out of context.

Might be a neat post industrial nuclear electric society. Both of these
represent areas of system stability.

>   How are things in Argentina these days ?
>
No idea.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

On 11/03/2022 03:54, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/10/22 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>>>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>>>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>>>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>
>>> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>>>
>> Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
>> radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
>> engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,
>
>   Aww ... the materials are better these days.

One of the benefits of computer controlled smelting...

Not so
>   unusual to see a car with 100k that still has the
>   original hoses, gaskets, belts and such (sometimes,
>   so the wrenches tell me, the original motor oil :-)
>
>   The metallurgy is better too. You might not get to
>   0.0001 tolerances with non-CNC but it might not
>   matter all that much for a piston engine.
>
The metallurgy cannot be maintained without digital electronics.

>   Anyway, they WORKED. Digitally-controlled fuel injection
>   is a bit better, but carbs work too and for an extra
>   few bucks could work even better (consider a compressed
>   air stream over the fuel jets instead of slow old aspirated).

All a carb does is increase fuel usage and unburnt fuel, and all a
sloppy engine does is burn excess oil and need its plug cleaning a lot.

Starting from iron ore and wood, I think I could just about make a steam
engine without more than a basic boring device.

Certainly couldn't make a carb.

Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.

Been a long time since overhead belt drives off steam engine powered
shafts....

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 4:45:43 PM UTC+8, Marc Haber wrote:
> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>
> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to current
> pollution standards.
>
> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry only,
> those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to start
> from scratch with the engine control circuitry.
>
> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to read
> out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
> interface.
>

Chrysler's Electronic Lean Burn was quite impressive: it used 8 inputs to control spark timing. But that was on a 1970s carby engine.
Can't see it flying today.

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.

Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.

While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine has
turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.

Pedro Valdez <pedro1492@lycos.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 4:45:43 PM UTC+8, Marc Haber wrote:
>> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>>
>> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to
>> current pollution standards.
>>
>> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry
>> only, those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to
>> start from scratch with the engine control circuitry.
>>
>> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
>> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to
>> read out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
>> interface.
>>
>
> Chrysler's Electronic Lean Burn was quite impressive: it used 8
> inputs to control spark timing. But that was on a 1970s carby
> engine. Can't see it flying today.

It would not. If you ever had the pleasure of driving one of those
cars from the 70s, it would not be acceptable to todays drivers.
Random engine stalling (often at idle), rough idle, more often than not
a lot of stuttering on acceleration. Compared to a digital control
fuel injection car that "just runs" those engines were horrible. And
now that every driver is accustomed to the "just runs, never stalls,
never sputters, is never rough" feel, no one will want to go back.

On 11/03/2022 13:06, Rich wrote:
> Pedro Valdez <pedro1492@lycos.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 4:45:43 PM UTC+8, Marc Haber wrote:
>>> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>>>
>>> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to
>>> current pollution standards.
>>>
>>> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry
>>> only, those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to
>>> start from scratch with the engine control circuitry.
>>>
>>> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
>>> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to
>>> read out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
>>> interface.
>>>
>>
>> Chrysler's Electronic Lean Burn was quite impressive: it used 8
>> inputs to control spark timing. But that was on a 1970s carby
>> engine. Can't see it flying today.
>
> It would not. If you ever had the pleasure of driving one of those
> cars from the 70s, it would not be acceptable to todays drivers.
> Random engine stalling (often at idle), rough idle, more often than not
> a lot of stuttering on acceleration. Compared to a digital control
> fuel injection car that "just runs" those engines were horrible. And
> now that every driver is accustomed to the "just runs, never stalls,
> never sputters, is never rough" feel, no one will want to go back.
>
They would if the alternative were getting used to no car at all.

We are now in a full on 21st century resource war as the world runs out
of resources, but not populations who need them or latter day warlords
who have no compunction about annexing them.
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 13:06, Rich wrote:
>> Pedro Valdez <pedro1492@lycos.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 4:45:43 PM UTC+8, Marc Haber wrote:
>>>> Reality check please, dead anonymous friend.
>>>>
>>>> You NEED digital parts to build an automobile that conforms to
>>>> current pollution standards.
>>>>
>>>> While you could probably build such a car using analog ciruitry
>>>> only, those cars would be in production 2026 because you'd need to
>>>> start from scratch with the engine control circuitry.
>>>>
>>>> And even that car would probably roll, but many country would not
>>>> accept it since there are demands from authorities to be able to
>>>> read out pollution data "on the road" over a standardized digital
>>>> interface.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chrysler's Electronic Lean Burn was quite impressive: it used 8
>>> inputs to control spark timing. But that was on a 1970s carby
>>> engine. Can't see it flying today.
>>
>> It would not. If you ever had the pleasure of driving one of those
>> cars from the 70s, it would not be acceptable to todays drivers.
>> Random engine stalling (often at idle), rough idle, more often than not
>> a lot of stuttering on acceleration. Compared to a digital control
>> fuel injection car that "just runs" those engines were horrible. And
>> now that every driver is accustomed to the "just runs, never stalls,
>> never sputters, is never rough" feel, no one will want to go back.
>>
> They would if the alternative were getting used to no car at all.

I did say "*want* to go back". Reality might force a change that no
one /wants/ to have happen.

On 2022-03-09 17:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/9/22 5:01 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>
>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts
>>>> two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care of
>>>> sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be centrifugally
>>>> advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>
>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>    starve to death ?
>>>
>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>
>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>
>>>
>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few thousand
>>>> miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower
>>>
>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>
>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>
>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better economy,
>>>> more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>
>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>
>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>
>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>
>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>    we really need them.
>>>
>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>    govt funding.
>>>
>>
>> You can not build a car now without the electronics.
>
>
>   You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving
>   around all the time.

Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old cars it
is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they are grounded.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-03-09 16:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 14:24, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> On 9.3.22 13.48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 10:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts
>>>>>> two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care
>>>>>> of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>>
>>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>>
>>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower
>>>>>
>>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>>
>>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>>
>>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>>
>>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>>
>>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics. You have to
>>>> drop the injection system and go back to carburators, so go back to
>>>> manufacture the old engines. Forget any new engine. Forget security
>>>> features that are now mandatory in the braking and transmissions
>>>> systems.
>>>>
>>>> Retooling the factories to build those old cars also takes years
>>>> (not counting the time needed to undo administrative and law changes
>>>> to drop all pollution and safety regulations).
>>>>
>>>> Ah, and the factories themselves need electronics to run.
>>>>
>>> Just buy them from India. I think they are still producing 50 year
>>> old designs.
>>>
>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the
>>> 1960s few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very
>>> good cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron
>>> tolerances. Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A 1960's car cannot pass the current safety and pollution requirements,
>> even backward sideways.
>>
> So ditch the stupid eco requirements.
>

Can't be done over here, would take years.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-03-10 10:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/03/2022 01:17, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> On 3/9/22 2:16 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:

>>    Ever been in a major disaster zone - the lights won't
>>    come on because all the wires are strewn on the ground,
>>    the refrig doesn't work, the stores are closed and it
>>    is irrelevant because the roads are blocked with heavy
>>    debris and when you want water nothing comes out of
>>    the tap. It's Plan-B time - and you'd better HAVE one.
>>    The tasty fruits of Civilization can be so easily
>>    yanked away.
>
> Try reading Joseph Tainter's 'collapse of complex civilizations' In it
> he recounts a report from IIRC a British army officer in WWI who entered
> a town that had been under effective siege for 10 days. Just 10 days.
> Dead bodies littered the street, looting was rife, there was no water,
> there was sewage and rubbish everywhere. Law and order had completely
> broken down.
>
> That's why those green folks want to make you dependent on windmills and
> solar panels that stop working when the sun oint shine and the wind
> don't blow. To smash civilization. It's a tenet of Marxism that the only
> thing stopping a better world is the people and systems that run this
> one. So if they are smashed, instant Utopia.

Solar and wind do not depend on fuel shortages from Russia. Depending on
design, you don't even depend on the network going down.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 3/11/22 3:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 03:54, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> On 3/10/22 4:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 21:39, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-09, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the 1960s
>>>>> few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not very good
>>>>> cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron tolerances.
>>>>> Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>>
>>>> But was easily repaired or replaced.
>>>>
>>> Sort of. memories of lying on back in a snowy car park replacing
>>> radiator bottom hoses.. or trying to drop a crank far enough with the
>>> engine in to install new main bearing shells,,,
>>
>>    Aww ... the materials are better these days.
>
> One of the benefits of computer controlled smelting...
>
>
>  Not so

The older ways were 'adequate'.

Actually, the "materials" I was talking about
were more in the line of gasket materials and
other plastics. Those are very important to
engine longevity.

>>    unusual to see a car with 100k that still has the
>>    original hoses, gaskets, belts and such (sometimes,
>>    so the wrenches tell me, the original motor oil :-)
>>
>>    The metallurgy is better too. You might not get to
>>    0.0001 tolerances with non-CNC but it might not
>>    matter all that much for a piston engine.
>>
> The metallurgy cannot be maintained without digital electronics.

Most was invented before digital control.

And then nobody bothered trying analog methods
once those cheapo digital chips arrived ...

Bother now.

>>    Anyway, they WORKED. Digitally-controlled fuel injection
>>    is a bit better, but carbs work too and for an extra
>>    few bucks could work even better (consider a compressed
>>    air stream over the fuel jets instead of slow old aspirated).
>
> All a carb does is increase fuel usage and unburnt fuel, and all a
> sloppy engine does is burn excess oil and need its plug cleaning a lot.

Actually, carbs can be greatly improved by using
compressed air over the jet orifices - ultra-vaporizes
the fuel. Can even be superior to port injection. They
never bothered in the old days, but it's a cheap and
easy fix.

> Starting from iron ore and wood, I think I could just about make a steam
> engine without more than a basic boring device.
>
> Certainly couldn't make a carb.
>
> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>
> Been a long time since overhead belt drives off steam engine powered
> shafts....

Just wait, at the rate things are going to hell it won't
be long before you hear it again :-)

Anyway, I think I hear programmers afraid of losing their
jobs to practical electronics tekkies :-)

Fear not, there will still be plenty of digital - just not
the near-100% market share we've been seeing.

On 3/11/22 8:01 AM, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>
> Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
> digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.

And when their little brains burn out and you can't
get replacement parts ..... ???

> While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
> tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine has
> turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.

Oh MY ! The audacity of it all ! Training HUMANS to
do precision work ???!!! :-)

Gee, you might have to PAY them good money !

Oh well, all I've been hearing is DENIAL. The chips
will flow in abundance forever and ever ...

Well, AIN'T

Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?

On 11/03/2022 20:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-09 17:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>> On 3/9/22 5:01 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts
>>>>> two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care
>>>>> of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>
>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>
>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>
>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower
>>>>
>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>
>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>
>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>
>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>
>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>
>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>
>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics.
>>
>>
>>    You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving
>>    around all the time.
>
> Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old cars it
> is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they are grounded.
>
Odd. in UK and I think USA very old cars are exempted from those

But relax, without electronics or electricity, they wont be able to do
those tests anyway :-)

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 11/03/2022 20:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-09 16:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 14:24, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>> On 9.3.22 13.48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 09/03/2022 10:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at
>>>>>>> leasts two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to
>>>>>>> take care of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam
>>>>>>> follower
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics. You have to
>>>>> drop the injection system and go back to carburators, so go back to
>>>>> manufacture the old engines. Forget any new engine. Forget security
>>>>> features that are now mandatory in the braking and transmissions
>>>>> systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Retooling the factories to build those old cars also takes years
>>>>> (not counting the time needed to undo administrative and law
>>>>> changes to drop all pollution and safety regulations).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, and the factories themselves need electronics to run.
>>>>>
>>>> Just buy them from India. I think they are still producing 50 year
>>>> old designs.
>>>>
>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the
>>>> 1960s few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not
>>>> very good cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron
>>>> tolerances. Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A 1960's car cannot pass the current safety and pollution requirements,
>>> even backward sideways.
>>>
>> So ditch the stupid eco requirements.
>>
>
> Can't be done over here, would take years.
>
Just leave the EU carlos. You know it makes sense.

BUT as I pointed out, if you haven't any electronics you can perform the
tests anyway.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 11/03/2022 20:50, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-10 10:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/03/2022 01:17, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>> On 3/9/22 2:16 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 09/03/2022 16:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>> On 3/9/22 08:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>
>
>>>    Ever been in a major disaster zone - the lights won't
>>>    come on because all the wires are strewn on the ground,
>>>    the refrig doesn't work, the stores are closed and it
>>>    is irrelevant because the roads are blocked with heavy
>>>    debris and when you want water nothing comes out of
>>>    the tap. It's Plan-B time - and you'd better HAVE one.
>>>    The tasty fruits of Civilization can be so easily
>>>    yanked away.
>>
>> Try reading Joseph Tainter's 'collapse of complex civilizations' In it
>> he recounts a report from IIRC a British army officer in WWI who
>> entered a town that had been under effective siege for 10 days. Just
>> 10 days. Dead bodies littered the street, looting was rife, there was
>> no water, there was sewage and rubbish everywhere. Law and order had
>> completely broken down.
>>
>> That's why those green folks want to make you dependent on windmills
>> and solar panels that stop working when the sun oint shine and the
>> wind don't blow. To smash civilization. It's a tenet of Marxism that
>> the only thing stopping a better world is the people and systems that
>> run this one. So if they are smashed, instant Utopia.
>
> Solar and wind do not depend on fuel shortages from Russia.

I am afraid that in practical terms they do Carlos.

Unless you have extensive hydro with a generation capacity in excess of
windmill power, only gas can get you through times of no wind and no
sun. If you have shut down all your coal and nuclear because your green
politicians were paid by he Kremlin to do so. As is now becoming apparent...

(Or as happened in Spain, diesel, which was being sold as solar power
day *and* night to get the subsidies!!)

Depending on
> design, you don't even depend on the network going down.
>
>
>

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

On 12/03/2022 05:36, 25.BX943 wrote:
> On 3/11/22 8:01 AM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>>
>> Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
>> digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.
>
>   And when their little brains burn out and you can't
>   get replacement parts ..... ???
>
>> While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
>> tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine has
>> turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.
>
>   Oh MY ! The audacity of it all ! Training HUMANS to
>   do precision work ???!!!  :-)
>
>   Gee, you might have to PAY them good money !
>
>   Oh well, all I've been hearing is DENIAL. The chips
>   will flow in abundance forever and ever ...
>
>   Well, AIN'T
>
>   Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?

Plan B is let China and Russia take over Europe and the USA, eliminate
democracy, eliminate 'net zero', and the Greens and run the world for
the benefit of men in dark suits with paid bodyguards.

Putin's homeboy or the gulags - your choice.
--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

In comp.os.linux.misc 25.BX943 <25BZ493@nada.net> wrote:
> On 3/11/22 8:01 AM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Remember all the milling machines and lathes run on electricity too.
>>
>> Not only do the run on electricity, but very many of them today are
>> digitally controlled CNC mills or lathes.
>
> And when their little brains burn out and you can't
> get replacement parts ..... ???

Then the businesses using them encounter a different sort of "supply
chain shortage" -- that of a shortage of skilled humans and a shortage
of manually operated machines (many of which were scrapped years ago,
so not as many remain). So instead of turning out 1,000 widgets a day,
they now have to make do with 15 widgets a day.

>> While a good machinist can mill or turn an item to nearly the same
>> tolerance, in the time it takes him/her to do so, the CNC machine
>> has turned out twenty or more identically milled/turned parts.
>
> Oh MY ! The audacity of it all ! Training HUMANS to
> do precision work ???!!! :-)

Not at all relevant to what I quoted. My quote was that one CNC machine
can outperform one human -- which is why the CNC machines took over.
Faster, no lunch/bathroom/smoke breaks, no healthcare costs, etc.

> Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?

Most businesses don't have one. But maybe this shortage will cause
them to consider having one.

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 20:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-09 17:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics.
>>>
>>>
>>>    You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving   
>>> around all the time.
>>
>> Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old
>> cars it is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they
>> are grounded.
>>
> Odd. in UK and I think USA very old cars are exempted from those

In the US it varies by state. In my state, it used to be that the car
was not exempt, but if one spent X dollars (I think it was $400 when
the emissions tests first arrived) on repairing it to meet the test,
and it still did not meet, then one could get an exemption (only good
till the next test, and they were every two years). The only other
alternative was registering as an "antique" car, which brought about
restrictions on when it could be driven (weekends/holidays only) on the
public roads.

But I think the politicians changed things later, and now if the car is
over X years (I forget how much, but something on the order of 20 or
25) then it does not have to be tested anymore at all.

On 2022-03-12, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc 25.BX943 <25BZ493@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> Now what ? Where's the Plan-B ?
>
> Most businesses don't have one. But maybe this shortage will cause
> them to consider having one.

Oh, they have one. Go to the government for a handout.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2022-03-12 16:00, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 20:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-09 16:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/03/2022 14:24, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>>> On 9.3.22 13.48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 09/03/2022 10:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at
>>>>>>>> leasts two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to
>>>>>>>> take care of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam
>>>>>>>> follower
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics. You have to
>>>>>> drop the injection system and go back to carburators, so go back
>>>>>> to manufacture the old engines. Forget any new engine. Forget
>>>>>> security features that are now mandatory in the braking and
>>>>>> transmissions systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Retooling the factories to build those old cars also takes years
>>>>>> (not counting the time needed to undo administrative and law
>>>>>> changes to drop all pollution and safety regulations).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, and the factories themselves need electronics to run.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Just buy them from India. I think they are still producing 50 year
>>>>> old designs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course one could set up a non electronic factory. Back in the
>>>>> 1960s few computers existed but cars were manufactured. Just not
>>>>> very good cars. without CNC lathes its hard to get down to micron
>>>>> tolerances. Stuff wore out quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A 1960's car cannot pass the current safety and pollution requirements,
>>>> even backward sideways.
>>>>
>>> So ditch the stupid eco requirements.
>>>
>>
>> Can't be done over here, would take years.
>>
> Just leave the EU carlos. You know it makes sense.

No, it doesn't.

>
> BUT as I pointed out, if you haven't any electronics you can perform the
> tests anyway.
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-03-12 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/03/2022 20:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-03-09 17:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>> On 3/9/22 5:01 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at leasts
>>>>>> two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to take care
>>>>>> of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>>
>>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>>
>>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam follower
>>>>>
>>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>>
>>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>>
>>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>>
>>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>>
>>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics.
>>>
>>>
>>>    You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving
>>>    around all the time.
>>
>> Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old cars
>> it is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they are
>> grounded.
>>
> Odd. in UK and I think USA very old cars are exempted from those

Nope. I had an old car, and it wasn't exempt if I wanted to use it on
the road.

Now, if the car is registered as "historic", it is exempt, but you can
not make "normal" use of it.

>
> But relax, without electronics or electricity, they wont be able to do
> those tests anyway :-)

There is that.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 3/16/22 9:54 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-03-12 15:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 11/03/2022 20:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-09 17:02, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>> On 3/9/22 5:01 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-03-06 03:01, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/22 5:36 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/03/2022 16:21, 25.BX943 wrote:
>>>>>>>> There is no "engine-control circuitry" in a '57 Chevy
>>>>>>>>    beyond the points-n-coil. It Just Works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually there is quite a bit, the carburettor will have at
>>>>>>> leasts two jets and either a damper or an acceleration pump to
>>>>>>> take care of sudden increases in throttle, and the spark will be
>>>>>>> centrifugally advanced and vacuum advanced as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    But again, 'analog' and non-electronic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Up into the early 60s there were many simply ingenious
>>>>>>    and simple "mechanical computing" fixes for regulating
>>>>>>    machines. Digital may be "better" - but if you can't
>>>>>>    GET the digital components reliably, or at all, what
>>>>>>    are you gonna do ? Is it "Internet or Hunting & Gathering"
>>>>>>    now, all or nothing ??? McDonalds closes so you have to
>>>>>>    starve to death ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I daresay that with the deteriorating relationships
>>>>>>    with, and between, the people we decided should make
>>>>>>    all the advanced chips in the world ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I didn't cause it, I'm just suggesting a time-tested
>>>>>>    work-around. Heresy ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The contact gap on the points will need adjusting every few
>>>>>>> thousand miles, because that's the nature of wear on the cam
>>>>>>> follower
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    It's easy to adjust the points. I think we can still make/get
>>>>>>    simpler components like Hall-effect switches and the minimums
>>>>>>    needed to make a pointless capacitive-discharge ignition system.
>>>>>>    I remember conversion kits for the older cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We don't exactly have to go back to Watt steam engine for
>>>>>>    everything but your tail-lights do not have to be CAN-Buss
>>>>>>    controlled. They used to have paper things called "road maps"
>>>>>>    and a device called an analog AM/FM radio with a twist knob
>>>>>>    that actually connected to a rotary variable cap for tuning -
>>>>>>    the "display" was a paper strip with numbers printed on it.
>>>>>>    Just turn the knob and The Beatles would come out !
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solid state ECMS Just Work Better. Less maintenance, better
>>>>>>> economy, more reliable. Lower emissions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only downside is you need a computer and a scope to fix em.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    And the things themselves are "computers" - indeed containing
>>>>>>    some of the very chips you can't buy now .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Analog can be "good enough" for a lot of uses we now just
>>>>>>    mindlessly throw dedicated microcontrollers and CPUs at.
>>>>>>    If "good enough" is all you can get in a timely and affordable
>>>>>>    fashion then, well, only one way to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    SOME devices just HAVE to be digital to be worth a damn. IF
>>>>>>    we can move over to analog for the ones that don't, it can
>>>>>>    mean an adequate supply of the specialty chips for where
>>>>>>    we really need them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    In THEORY, we could have semi-decent chip factories again in
>>>>>>    the USA and EU - but they don't grow overnight like mushrooms.
>>>>>>    We're talking YEARS, we're talking VERY specialized and
>>>>>>    expensive equipment (some of which will fit into that "SOME
>>>>>>    devices" category. Yeilds are often fer-crap too for a year
>>>>>>    of so until they get everything tuned-in. I'd rate such
>>>>>>    factories as a "national-security imperative", but even
>>>>>>    The Bomb took several years to create despite unlimited
>>>>>>    govt funding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can not build a car now without the electronics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    You absolutely CAN. I see pre-electronics cars driving
>>>>    around all the time.
>>>
>>> Not over here. If they do not pass the mandatory yearly (for old cars
>>> it is yearly) inspection, which includes a pollution test, they are
>>> grounded.
>>>
>> Odd. in UK and I think USA very old cars are exempted from those
>
> Nope. I had an old car, and it wasn't exempt if I wanted to use it on
> the road.
>
> Now, if the car is registered as "historic", it is exempt, but you can
> not make "normal" use of it.
>
>>
>> But relax, without electronics or electricity, they wont be able to do
>> those tests anyway :-)
>
> There is that.

Indeed :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_steam_velocipede

Guess we'll be seeing a lot of those soon now. Wear
yer mask if downwind :-)

Can't use horses or mules anymore alas, PETA will getcha
for that ! Aren't really ENOUGH of either beast to take
the place of autos these days either. Oh, and the poop
issue :-) BUT, GrandDad walked over the poop anyhow
and survived and thrived. Besides, horses and mules
are "solar powered" - grass in, work (and poop) out.

Anyway, 'analog' non-digital autos worked quite well.
They could be considerably improved - they just didn't
try very hard in the 70s. A few tweaks and carbs can
do a lot better job of vaporizing fuel - and you'd
get similar figures to a port-injected vehicle.

If you live somewhere insanely dedicated to turning all
those old cars into cubes - well - SELECT DIFFERENT
LEADERSHIP. Practical always trumps pie-in-the-sky
ideological BS.