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computers / comp.ai.philosophy / Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ paradox ratherolcott
`* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutes Rice's Theorem ]olcott
 `* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutes Rice's Theorem ]olcott
  +* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesJeff Barnett
  |`* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesolcott
  | +- Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesolcott
  | `* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesolcott
  |  `* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutes Rice's Theorem ]olcott
  |   `* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesolcott
  |    `* Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ André doesn't know Rice's olcott
  |     `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ]olcott
  |      +- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ MalcJeff Barnett
  |      +- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ]olcott
  |      +* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ]olcott
  |      |`* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ]olcott
  |      | +* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      | |`* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      | | `- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ PSR Decider is fully operatiolcott
  |      | `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ self-contradiction must be tolcott
  |      |  `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ self-contradiction must be tolcott
  |      |   +* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ self-contradiction must be tolcott
  |      |   |`- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ self-contradiction must be tolcott
  |      |   `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      |    `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      |     `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-exolcott
  |      |      `* Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      |       +- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  |      |       `- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-exolcott
  |      `- Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolcott
  `- Re: Black box halt decider is NOT a partial decider [ H refutesolcott

Pages:12
Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

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Subject: Re:_André_doesn't_know_Rice's_Theorem_[_Malc
olm_]_[_Try_and_provide_a_counter-example_]
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.software-eng,sci.math.symbolic
References: <20210719214640.00000dfc@reddwarf.jmc>
<sdnn91$k7p$1@dont-email.me> <tbGdnZb32okl_GL9nZ2dnUU7-UvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:50:10 -0500
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 by: olcott - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:50 UTC

On 7/29/2021 2:55 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-07-29 12:15, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/28/2021 11:15 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-28 21:51, olcott wrote:
>>
>>>> This is equally the definition of not halting:
>>>> Every input to a simulating halt decider that only stops running
>>>> when its simulation is aborted unequivocally specifies a computation
>>>> that never halts.
>>>
>>> No, it isn't a definition of halting. At best, it is something which
>>> you have proposed as a *test* for halting, but it is a broken test
>>> since, at least according to you, it sometimes gives an answer that
>>> does *not* correspond to the *actual* definition of halting.

>> Try and provide a counter-example of an input to H that is a halting
>> computation even though it never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>
> P(P) is a counterexample to your H because your H claims that P(P) won't

Try and provide a

counter-example of an input to H
counter-example of an input to H
counter-example of an input to H
counter-example of an input to H
counter-example of an input to H

that is a halting
computation even though it never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

> halt without its simulation being aborted when clearly this is not the
> case. P(P) halts when run independently. And when run independently P(P)
> isn't being simulated, so it can't have its simulation aborted.
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

<p92dnftnGe5B0J78nZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re:_André_doesn't_know_Rice's_Theorem_[_Malcolm_]_[_Try_and_provide_a_counter-example_]
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.software-eng,sci.math.symbolic
References: <20210719214640.00000dfc@reddwarf.jmc> <sdnua6$n7p$1@dont-email.me> <zPudnUgsAvKV42L9nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdo03c$uid$1@dont-email.me> <d619424f-35d7-4fc2-bc33-d4b0bdb57966n@googlegroups.com> <m-mdnbNOsMXYuJ38nZ2dnUU7-YnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdpf12$ij8$1@dont-email.me> <d46dnQp1b-ua3p38nZ2dnUU7-d_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdpnjb$1q3$1@dont-email.me> <NpmdnV9AwpJkV538nZ2dnUU7-QXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdqjgu$mun$1@dont-email.me> <yvKdnaD9etCe-Jz8nZ2dnUU7-Q3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdrt9e$upt$1@dont-email.me> <Z6qdna6B7Zq-FZz8nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sds8a4$djb$1@dont-email.me> <uISdndIApsxJJZz8nZ2dnUU7-YvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdsplo$9fe$1@dont-email.me> <O62dnbVMDplJuJ_8nZ2dnUU7-UGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdta1u$emq$1@dont-email.me> <HN-dnQDk7oWubZ_8nZ2dnUU7-eXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdv135$8gl$1@dont-email.me> <FOedneXRA5E_rZ78nZ2dnUU7-WudnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvbqf$rf7$1@dont-email.me> <69ydnWFx0JDQpJ78nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvgt9$l8u$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:54:51 -0500
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 by: olcott - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 00:54 UTC

On 7/29/2021 7:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-07-29 17:27, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/29/2021 5:58 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-29 16:50, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/29/2021 2:55 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-07-29 12:15, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/28/2021 11:15 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-07-28 21:51, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is equally the definition of not halting:
>>>>>>>> Every input to a simulating halt decider that only stops running
>>>>>>>> when its simulation is aborted unequivocally specifies a
>>>>>>>> computation that never halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, it isn't a definition of halting. At best, it is something
>>>>>>> which you have proposed as a *test* for halting, but it is a
>>>>>>> broken test since, at least according to you, it sometimes gives
>>>>>>> an answer that does *not* correspond to the *actual* definition
>>>>>>> of halting.
>>>>
>>>>>> Try and provide a counter-example of an input to H that is a
>>>>>> halting computation even though it never halts unless its
>>>>>> simulation is aborted.
>>>>>
>>>>> P(P) is a counterexample to your H because your H claims that P(P)
>>>>> won't
>>>>
>>>> Try and provide a
>>>>
>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>
>>>> that is a halting
>>>> computation even though it never halts unless its simulation is
>>>> aborted.
>>>
>>>
>>> No computation that *truly* wouldn't halt unless its simulation is
>>> aborted would be a halting computatation. I don't think anyone
>>> disputes that. But your H doesn't actually test for this condition
>>> since it claims that computations such as P(P) which *are* halting
>>> computations need to have their simulations aborted in order for them
>>> to halt.
>>>
>>> But this isn't a viable *definition* of halting since halting is a
>>> property of computations which exists *independently* of any halt
>>> decider or simulator, so a definition of halting shouldn't refer to
>>> such things.
>>>
>>
>> Try and show how the
>> input to H
>> input to H
>> input to H
>> input to H
>> could ever reach its final state.
>
> If by the "input to H" you mean (P, P), then yes, the simulation of P(P)
> would have reached a final state had H not prematurely aborted it.
>

This is incorrect as the code below proves:

P either remains infinitely stuck in its first seven instructions or H
seeing that P is permanently stuck in its first seven instructions stops
simulating P. There is no possible way that P ever reaches its final
state, thus meeting the NEVER HALTS criteria.

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
}

_P()
[00000c25](01) 55 push ebp
[00000c26](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b](01) 50 push eax // 2nd Param
[00000c2c](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f](01) 51 push ecx // 1st Param
[00000c30](05) e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H
....

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c25
[00000c25][00211776][0021177a] 55 push ebp // P begins
[00000c26][00211776][0021177a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28][00211776][0021177a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b][00211772][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c2c][00211772][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f][0021176e][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c30][0021176a][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H1(P2,P2)

[00000c25][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 55 push ebp // P begins
[00000c26][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b][0025c19a][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c2c][0025c19a][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f][0025c196][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c30][0025c192][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H2(P3,P3)
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

> This is shown by the simple fact that the actual computation P(P) halts.
>
> André
>
> André
>
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

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Subject: Re:_André_doesn't_know_Rice's_Theorem_[_Malc
olm_]_[_Try_and_provide_a_counter-example_]
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.software-eng,sci.math.symbolic
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:34:19 -0500
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 by: olcott - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:34 UTC

On 7/29/2021 8:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-07-29 18:54, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/29/2021 7:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-29 17:27, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/29/2021 5:58 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-07-29 16:50, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/29/2021 2:55 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-07-29 12:15, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/28/2021 11:15 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-28 21:51, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is equally the definition of not halting:
>>>>>>>>>> Every input to a simulating halt decider that only stops
>>>>>>>>>> running when its simulation is aborted unequivocally specifies
>>>>>>>>>> a computation that never halts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't a definition of halting. At best, it is something
>>>>>>>>> which you have proposed as a *test* for halting, but it is a
>>>>>>>>> broken test since, at least according to you, it sometimes
>>>>>>>>> gives an answer that does *not* correspond to the *actual*
>>>>>>>>> definition of halting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Try and provide a counter-example of an input to H that is a
>>>>>>>> halting computation even though it never halts unless its
>>>>>>>> simulation is aborted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P(P) is a counterexample to your H because your H claims that
>>>>>>> P(P) won't
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try and provide a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>>> counter-example of an input to H
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that is a halting
>>>>>> computation even though it never halts unless its simulation is
>>>>>> aborted.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No computation that *truly* wouldn't halt unless its simulation is
>>>>> aborted would be a halting computatation. I don't think anyone
>>>>> disputes that. But your H doesn't actually test for this condition
>>>>> since it claims that computations such as P(P) which *are* halting
>>>>> computations need to have their simulations aborted in order for
>>>>> them to halt.
>>>>>
>>>>> But this isn't a viable *definition* of halting since halting is a
>>>>> property of computations which exists *independently* of any halt
>>>>> decider or simulator, so a definition of halting shouldn't refer to
>>>>> such things.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Try and show how the
>>>> input to H
>>>> input to H
>>>> input to H
>>>> input to H
>>>> could ever reach its final state.
>>>
>>> If by the "input to H" you mean (P, P), then yes, the simulation of
>>> P(P) would have reached a final state had H not prematurely aborted it.
>>>
>>
>> This is incorrect as the code below proves:
>
> The code below proves nothing. Code and traces aren't proofs. Moreover,
> the code below is incomplete because it doesn't include what occurs at
> address 955.
>

_P()
[00000c25](01) 55 push ebp
[00000c26](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b](01) 50 push eax // 2nd Param
[00000c2c](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f](01) 51 push ecx // 1st Param
[00000c30](05) e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H
[00000c35](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00000c38](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00000c3a](02) 7402 jz 00000c3e
[00000c3c](02) ebfe jmp 00000c3c
[00000c3e](01) 5d pop ebp
[00000c3f](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [00000c3f]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c25
[00000c25][00211776][0021177a] 55 push ebp // P begins
[00000c26][00211776][0021177a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28][00211776][0021177a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b][00211772][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c2c][00211772][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f][0021176e][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c30][0021176a][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)

[00000c25][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 55 push ebp // P begins
[00000c26][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000c28][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000c2b][0025c19a][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
[00000c2c][0025c19a][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000c2f][0025c196][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
[00000c30][0025c192][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

>> P either remains infinitely stuck in its first seven instructions or H
>> seeing that P is permanently stuck in its first seven instructions
>> stops simulating P. There is no possible way that P ever reaches its
>> final state, thus meeting the NEVER HALTS criteria.
>
> If you stopped ignoring what occurs at address 955 you would find that
> you are mistaken.
>
> André
>

The claim is that the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final
state @ 0x3cf. Since we know that H is a simulating halt decider we know
that it can either continue to simulate P(P) or stop simulating P(P). In
either case the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final state @
0x3cf.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

<somdnWp1FcwJvJn8nZ2dnUU7-RHNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7169&group=comp.ai.philosophy#7169

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Subject: Re:_André_doesn't_know_Rice's_Theorem_[_Malc
olm_]_[_Try_and_provide_a_counter-example_]
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.software-eng,sci.math.symbolic
References: <20210719214640.00000dfc@reddwarf.jmc>
<m-mdnbNOsMXYuJ38nZ2dnUU7-YnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdpf12$ij8$1@dont-email.me>
<d46dnQp1b-ua3p38nZ2dnUU7-d_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdpnjb$1q3$1@dont-email.me>
<NpmdnV9AwpJkV538nZ2dnUU7-QXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdqjgu$mun$1@dont-email.me>
<yvKdnaD9etCe-Jz8nZ2dnUU7-Q3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdrt9e$upt$1@dont-email.me>
<Z6qdna6B7Zq-FZz8nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sds8a4$djb$1@dont-email.me>
<uISdndIApsxJJZz8nZ2dnUU7-YvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdsplo$9fe$1@dont-email.me>
<O62dnbVMDplJuJ_8nZ2dnUU7-UGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdta1u$emq$1@dont-email.me>
<HN-dnQDk7oWubZ_8nZ2dnUU7-eXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdv135$8gl$1@dont-email.me>
<FOedneXRA5E_rZ78nZ2dnUU7-WudnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvbqf$rf7$1@dont-email.me>
<69ydnWFx0JDQpJ78nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvgt9$l8u$1@dont-email.me>
<p92dnftnGe5B0J78nZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvkdr$7pe$1@dont-email.me>
<Bb-dnR0YqbvMHJ78nZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <se13r0$5jp$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:58:11 -0500
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 by: olcott - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:58 UTC

On 7/30/2021 9:54 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-07-29 22:34, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/29/2021 8:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-29 18:54, olcott wrote:
>
>> _P()
>> [00000c25](01)  55          push ebp
>> [00000c26](02)  8bec        mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28](03)  8b4508      mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b](01)  50          push eax       // 2nd Param
>> [00000c2c](03)  8b4d08      mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f](01)  51          push ecx       // 1st Param
>> [00000c30](05)  e820fdffff  call 00000955  // call H
>> [00000c35](03)  83c408      add esp,+08
>> [00000c38](02)  85c0        test eax,eax
>> [00000c3a](02)  7402        jz 00000c3e
>> [00000c3c](02)  ebfe        jmp 00000c3c
>> [00000c3e](01)  5d          pop ebp
>> [00000c3f](01)  c3          ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [00000c3f]
>>
>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c25
>> [00000c25][00211776][0021177a] 55         push ebp      // P begins
>> [00000c26][00211776][0021177a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28][00211776][0021177a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b][00211772][00000c25] 50         push eax      // push P
>> [00000c2c][00211772][00000c25] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f][0021176e][00000c25] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> [00000c30][0021176a][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)
>>
>> [00000c25][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 55         push ebp      // P begins
>> [00000c26][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b][0025c19a][00000c25] 50         push eax      // push P
>> [00000c2c][0025c19a][00000c25] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f][0025c196][00000c25] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> [00000c30][0025c192][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>
>>>> P either remains infinitely stuck in its first seven instructions or
>>>> H seeing that P is permanently stuck in its first seven instructions
>>>> stops simulating P. There is no possible way that P ever reaches its
>>>> final state, thus meeting the NEVER HALTS criteria.
>>>
>>> If you stopped ignoring what occurs at address 955 you would find
>>> that you are mistaken.
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>
>> The claim is that the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final
>> state @ 0x3cf. Since we know that H is a simulating halt decider we
>> know that it can either continue to simulate P(P) or stop simulating
>> P(P). In either case the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its
>> final state @ 0x3cf.
>
> Without knowing what happens at address 955, none of the above tells us
> anything at all about what happens in this code.
>
> André
>
>

That is very obviously flat out not true when we know that H is a
simulating partial halt decider. In this case H either continues to
simulate its input or stops simulating its input either way this input
never reaches its final state of 0x3cf.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: André doesn't know Rice's Theorem [ Malcolm ] [ Try and provide a counter-example ]

<N6OdnWSHmY-595j8nZ2dnUU7-K3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

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Subject: Re:_André_doesn't_know_Rice's_Theorem_[_Malcolm_]_[_Try_and_provide_a_counter-example_]
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.software-eng,sci.math.symbolic
References: <20210719214640.00000dfc@reddwarf.jmc> <sdrt9e$upt$1@dont-email.me> <Z6qdna6B7Zq-FZz8nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sds8a4$djb$1@dont-email.me> <uISdndIApsxJJZz8nZ2dnUU7-YvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdsplo$9fe$1@dont-email.me> <O62dnbVMDplJuJ_8nZ2dnUU7-UGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdta1u$emq$1@dont-email.me> <HN-dnQDk7oWubZ_8nZ2dnUU7-eXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdv135$8gl$1@dont-email.me> <FOedneXRA5E_rZ78nZ2dnUU7-WudnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvbqf$rf7$1@dont-email.me> <69ydnWFx0JDQpJ78nZ2dnUU7-SHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvgt9$l8u$1@dont-email.me> <p92dnftnGe5B0J78nZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sdvkdr$7pe$1@dont-email.me> <Bb-dnR0YqbvMHJ78nZ2dnUU7-X3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <HkMMI.20245$6U5.8129@fx02.iad> <hcidnRN1f4XtN5n8nZ2dnUU7-aPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <N52NI.5715$xn6.3071@fx23.iad> <pPCdndI07NMcLZn8nZ2dnUU7-dXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <gQ3NI.78182$dp5.67503@fx48.iad> <TZ6dnaSIxY9Dx5j8nZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <c2b53955-90ca-492b-8628-e6aafe3b1d54n@googlegroups.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:20:03 -0500
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 by: olcott - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 15:20 UTC

On 7/31/2021 10:02 AM, wij wrote:
> On Saturday, 31 July 2021 at 22:15:01 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/30/2021 10:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/30/21 7:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/30/2021 8:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/30/21 6:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/30/2021 12:44 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/29/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The claim is that the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final
>>>>>>>> state @ 0x3cf. Since we know that H is a simulating halt decider we
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> that it can either continue to simulate P(P) or stop simulating
>>>>>>>> P(P). In
>>>>>>>> either case the input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its final
>>>>>>>> state @
>>>>>>>> 0x3cf.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that doesn't actually matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure it does it proves that the input to H(P,P) never halts thus proving
>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct no matter what another different P that is not
>>>>>> an input to H does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WHY?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, the fact that an ABORTED simulation didn't reach a final
>>>>> halting state does NOT prove that the machine it represents is
>>>>> non-halting.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the input to H(P,P) and the input to embedded halt decider
>>>> Ĥ.qx(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩) of the actual full blown Linz proof can't possibly reach
>>>> their final state whether or not this input is ever aborted conclusively
>>>> proves that both H and Ĥ.qx correctly decide that their inputs never halt.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it does NOT prove that. Only a UNCONDITIONAL Simulation would show that.
>>>
>> _P()
>> [00000c25](01) 55 push ebp
>> [00000c26](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b](01) 50 push eax // 2nd Param
>> [00000c2c](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f](01) 51 push ecx // 1st Param
>> [00000c30](05) e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H
>> [00000c35](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>> [00000c38](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>> [00000c3a](02) 7402 jz 00000c3e
>> [00000c3c](02) ebfe jmp 00000c3c
>> [00000c3e](01) 5d pop ebp
>> [00000c3f](01) c3 ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [00000c3f]
>>
>> machine stack stack machine assembly
>> address address data code language
>> ======== ======== ======== ========= =============
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c25
>> [00000c25][00211776][0021177a] 55 push ebp // P1 begins
>> [00000c26][00211776][0021177a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28][00211776][0021177a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b][00211772][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
>> [00000c2c][00211772][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f][0021176e][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
>> [00000c30][0021176a][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H1(P2,P2)
>>
>> [00000c25][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 55 push ebp // P2 begins
>> [00000c26][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> [00000c28][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2b][0025c19a][00000c25] 50 push eax // push P
>> [00000c2c][0025c19a][00000c25] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [00000c2f][0025c196][00000c25] 51 push ecx // push P
>> [00000c30][0025c192][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H2(P3,P3)
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>> Anyone that knows the x86 language can see that the input to P cannot
>> possibly ever reach its halt state of 0xc3f whether or not H remains in
>> pure simulator mode AKA unconditional simulation.
>
> Exactly, That is why "undecidable" is called.
> There always exists "pathological" inputs that the halt decider H will fail.

The halt decider does not freaking fail on its freaking inputs.

We know with 100% perfect complete logical certainty that the halt
decider does correctly decide that its input never halts.

That the input cannot possibly ever reach its final state of 0xc3f
whether or not H aborts the simulation of this input conclusively proves
that this input never halts beyond all possible logically correct doubt.

If you don't know the x86 language then this may not be apparent.

> The "pathological" self-reference input need not necessarily to look anything
> like self-reference or "pathological".
>
>
>>> As I have said, all that your statement proves is that no H can prove
>>> that its H^ halts.
>>>
>>> Failure to prove is not a proof of the opposite.
>>>
>>> You logic is totally UNSOUND.
>>>
>>> You logic is totally inconsistent.
>>>
>>> I would even say your mind seems to be UNSOUND if it can't see the
>>> UNSOUNDNESS of the argument.
>>>
>>> I would say you also totally don't understand how logic works if you
>>> think that this is a real proof.
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>>
>> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
>> minds." Einstein

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

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