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computers / alt.os.linux.mint / Re: new machine won't boot after install

SubjectAuthor
* new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
+* Re: new machine won't boot after installBig Al
|`* Re: new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
| `* Re: new machine won't boot after installBig Al
|  `- Re: new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
+* Re: new machine won't boot after installlisa
|`* Re: new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
| `- Re: new machine won't boot after installjjb
+- Re: new machine won't boot after installazigni
+- Re: new machine won't boot after installPaul
`* Re: new machine won't boot after installNic
 `* Re: new machine won't boot after installPaul
  +* Re: new machine won't boot after installJohnny
  |`- Re: new machine won't boot after installPaul
  +* Re: new machine won't boot after installNic
  |`* Re: new machine won't boot after installPaul
  | `* Re: new machine won't boot after installNic
  |  `- Re: new machine won't boot after installPaul
  `* Re: new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
   `* Re: new machine won't boot after installMike Scott
    `* Re: new machine won't boot after installlisa
     `* Re: new machine won't boot after installJohn B.
      `- Re: new machine won't boot after installJohn B.

1
new machine won't boot after install

<ujqk19$2d0sr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid (Mike Scott)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:46:33 +0000
Organization: Scott family
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 by: Mike Scott - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:46 UTC

I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.

New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.

I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
dvd and installed to the internal drive.

But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
showing Novatech's logo.

(I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to
a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get round
this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at
least allowed the dvd to boot.)

Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?

Thanks.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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From: Bea...@invalid.com (Big Al)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2023 11:58:23 -0500
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In-Reply-To: <ujqk19$2d0sr$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Big Al - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:58 UTC

On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>
> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>
> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>
> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply showing Novatech's logo.
>
> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set
> and I couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to
> boot.)
>
>
> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
I usually make sure the HD is formatted GPT and UEFI.
Do you know your status?
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujql9l$2d8k0$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid (Mike Scott)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2023 17:08:05 +0000
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 by: Mike Scott - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 17:08 UTC

On 24/11/2023 16:58, Big Al wrote:
> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>
>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>
>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
>> dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>
>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
>> showing Novatech's logo.
>>
>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted
>> to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get
>> round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot
>> at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>>
>>
>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
> I usually make sure the HD is formatted GPT and UEFI.
> Do you know your status?

bios is uefi. I let the installation procedure just do a default install
most recently.

No joy with that or trying to set things up manually.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujqm83$2d5u8$2@dont-email.me>

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From: Bea...@invalid.com (Big Al)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2023 12:24:19 -0500
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 by: Big Al - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 17:24 UTC

On 11/24/23 12:08 PM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
> On 24/11/2023 16:58, Big Al wrote:
>> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>>
>>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>>
>>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>>
>>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply showing Novatech's logo.
>>>
>>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to a message about secure keys needing to be
>>> set and I couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at least allowed the
>>> dvd to boot.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>> I usually make sure the HD is formatted GPT and UEFI.
>> Do you know your status?
>
> bios is uefi. I let the installation procedure just do a default install most recently.
>
> No joy with that or trying to set things up manually.
>
I haven't done it is a good bit, on the automatic, do you have a choice where to put boot loader?
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<r9r1mi5k5viqmhm1hvdot7ii32v9opi272@4ax.com>

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From: not.in....@invalid.xor (lisa)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2023 19:42:01 +0100
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 by: lisa - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 18:42 UTC

On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:46:33 +0000, Mike Scott
<usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

>
>I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>
>New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>
>I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
>dvd and installed to the internal drive.

maybe you also need to change the Legacy Support setting. You could
have a secure system setup for Win11.
Is the internal drive listed in the boot order?

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujqqqh$2e4mi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid (Mike Scott)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
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 by: Mike Scott - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 18:42 UTC

On 24/11/2023 17:24, Big Al wrote:
> On 11/24/23 12:08 PM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 24/11/2023 16:58, Big Al wrote:
>>> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, this is what Mike Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>>>
>>>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>>>
>>>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint
>>>> 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>>>
>>>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
>>>> showing Novatech's logo.
>>>>
>>>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this
>>>> booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I
>>>> couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either.
>>>> Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I usually make sure the HD is formatted GPT and UEFI.
>>> Do you know your status?
>>
>> bios is uefi. I let the installation procedure just do a default
>> install most recently.
>>
>> No joy with that or trying to set things up manually.
>>
> I haven't done it is a good bit, on the automatic, do you have a choice
> where to put boot loader?

No.

I'm having to boot the dvd in compatibility mode; I don't get the grub
menu for the hd. Maybe that's related.

I'm leaving this for tonight - fresh mind tomorrow. Thanks.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<XE98N.149656$wvv7.128310@fx14.iad>

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From: azi...@yahoo.com (azigni)
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
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 by: azigni - Fri, 24 Nov 2023 22:41 UTC

Maybe something related to this:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/msi-breaks-secure-boot-for-
hundreds-of-motherboards/

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujrg6j$2h5t1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
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 by: Paul - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 00:47 UTC

On 11/24/2023 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>
> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>
> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>
> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply showing Novatech's logo.
>
> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>
>
> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>
> Thanks.
>
>

https://www.novatech.co.uk/motherboardbundles/view/mbb-134016.html

MSI PRO B760-P WIFI DDR4 ATX Motherboard
Core i5 13400

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/230495/intel-core-i5-13400-processor-20m-cache-up-to-4-60-ghz.html
6C 12T+4

Manual doesn't have a BIOS section. Great.

*******

You can try turning off the Full Screen Logo and maybe that
will cause the Novatech defacement to go away.

As for the other settings, it depends on whether the BIOS
still supports CSM/UEFI. As Intel threatens that all future
motherboards will be UEFI only. Which isn't very good. CSM
would install Windows 7 (which does not have Secure Boot),
or it can install Linux if the shim is unavailable or the
signing has been revoked (recent activity...). To do a Secure Boot
today, you have to check the latest status on the topic. Even Microsoft
is in trouble, which is why the shim is unstable. Over the next
year, Microsoft will be "solving" their Secure Boot issue. And
there is a domino effect involved there. Me trying to steer you
into CSM, is to give you some "first time success" to enjoy,
while you work on your Secure Boot researches.

[Picture}

https://i.postimg.cc/QtHzbkw7/msi-bios-example.gif

My MSI motherboard (what I'm typing on), uses <del> to enter the BIOS
and F11 for popup boot.

In popup boot, if the DVD appears twice, you could select the
non-UEFI entry and it should boot CSM. Now, your install will
also be in CSM mode. The install mode, "follows" the DVD boot mode.

Now your DVD should boot.

Once you're in, use GDisk, expert options, and there
is an option to "zap GPT". I guess when I made this note,
I was messing with a USB stick. The drive here was the
fourth drive, or drive sdd.

sudo gdisk /dev/sdd
"Initial answer???" doesn't matter
x # Expert mode
z # Zap GPT structure on USB stick, zero out MBR if asked
q

That should, give you an empty disk drive. And, by using a minimal number of writes.

If the drive was over 2.2TB (3TB or 4TB say), you'd want it to be GPT of course,
to gain access to the whole thing. Otherwise, CSM will do for the purposes
of this experiment.

Now, install the OS.

And try and boot.

If Novatech has screwed with the Full Screen Logo, perhaps
they have buggered up some aspect of secure boot by having
done that. Otherwise, it could be some aspect of the hole
Microsoft is in, which has affected the shim on Linux.

People actually fly around on airplanes, to "sign stuff".
Attestation cannot be done electronically, and must be
done in an air-gapped facility in a particular place.

Paul

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujta78$2sg98$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
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 by: Mike Scott - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 17:17 UTC

On 24/11/2023 18:42, lisa wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:46:33 +0000, Mike Scott
> <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>
>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>
>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
>> dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>
> maybe you also need to change the Legacy Support setting. You could

There doesn't seem to be 'legacy' support, unless they've found a
different name.

> have a secure system setup for Win11.
> Is the internal drive listed in the boot order?

I begin to suspect a hardware fault. I've had messages - on a couple of
occasions - about an i801 smbus-something error followed by a hang. more
usually, it gets stuck on the novatech logo.

I did get some checks done though. After booting the dvd, I ran
efibootmgr and that showed the boot order was correct. parted showed
correct partitions.

Sometimes it won't even get as far as grub loading from the dvd. more
usually it does (but only boots mint in compatibility mode). On one of
these occasions, I picked the 'boot next drive' option -- and it worked:
brought up the installed os. Just the once though - the next time the
same procedure caused a hang.

I think I'm going to have to try booting a win10 dvd and see if that
works. If not - I'll assume it's the hardware and see what novatech say.

Thanks to all. Paul's extended response I'll read properly on Monday.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujtjqa$2tti7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jjb...@invalid.invalid (jjb)
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 by: jjb - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 20:01 UTC

On 25-11-2023 18:17, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 24/11/2023 18:42, lisa wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 16:46:33 +0000, Mike Scott
>> <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>>
>>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>>
>>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
>>> dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>
>> maybe you also need to change the Legacy Support setting. You could
>
> There doesn't seem to be 'legacy' support, unless they've found a
> different name.
>
>> have a secure system setup for Win11.
>> Is the internal drive listed in the boot order?
>
> I begin to suspect a hardware fault. I've had messages - on a couple of
> occasions - about an i801 smbus-something error followed by a hang. more
> usually, it gets stuck on the novatech logo.
>
> I did get some checks done though. After booting the dvd, I ran
> efibootmgr and that showed the boot order was correct. parted showed
> correct partitions.
>
> Sometimes it won't even get as far as grub loading from the dvd. more
> usually it does (but only boots mint in compatibility mode). On one of
> these occasions, I picked the 'boot next drive' option -- and it worked:
> brought up the installed os. Just the once though - the next time the
> same procedure caused a hang.
>
> I think I'm going to have to try booting a win10 dvd and see if that
> works. If not - I'll assume it's the hardware and see what novatech say.
>
> Thanks to all. Paul's extended response I'll read properly on Monday.
>
Just to go out on a limb: I have seen suchlike behavior caused by
marginally faulty power supplies giving unstable voltages under load.

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<9ys8N.78233$_Oab.22997@fx15.iad>

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 by: Nic - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 20:11 UTC

On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>
> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>
> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2
> dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>
> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
> showing Novatech's logo.
>
> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted
> to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get
> round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot
> at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>
>
> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
My most recent experience with a new machine turned out that the nvram
that the os was to be installed onto was incompatible with Linux. It was
hard coded for a M$ windows product. I eliminated the nvram and
installed to the primary ssd  with no problem.

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujtnn5$2ufop$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2023 16:07:48 -0500
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 by: Paul - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:07 UTC

On 11/25/2023 3:11 PM, Nic wrote:
> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>
>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>
>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>
>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply showing Novatech's logo.
>>
>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>>
>>
>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
> My most recent experience with a new machine turned out that the nvram that the os was to be installed onto was incompatible with Linux. It was hard coded for a M$ windows product. I eliminated the nvram and installed to the primary ssd  with no problem.

No it wasn't :-)

Machines discriminate based on Secure Boot.
Secure Boot is a means of "locking down" a PC,
at least it was at the very first. The environment
is different now.

CSM = legacy boot
UEFI without Secure Boot = the new boot
UEFI with Secure Boot = to run Linux here, requires the signed shim, signing not revoked

Do not buy a machine, which "just has the third type". Check out
the machine details, before you buy. Read reviews. Google your ass off.
*Do not* impulse buy computers. They're not watermelon.

If you *do* have the third type, your first Linux install should
be the most recent release you can find ("Mantic"). That will pick
up the latest bandaid solution for Secure Boot.

*******

This is what I'm typing on.

[Picture}

https://i.postimg.cc/QtHzbkw7/msi-bios-example.gif

By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
For I have The Force. The Force is a "retail motherboard for desktop",
the embodiment of freedom. If you give me a Dell, I will
open a window and throw it onto the street. (I have a Dell here for
test, and in a word, the BIOS is "just awful". It's a miserably behaved
invention. If you select AHCI, it puts the SATA port in Compatible mode.
No retail motherboard manufacturer would be *that* lame.)

This is what you expect from buying retail computers, the ones that
"sit on that table" at the computer store. A constant circus.

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-IdeaPad-1xx-3xx-5xx-7xx-Edge-LaVie-Z-Flex-Laptops/Unable-to-enable-secure-boot-on-a-lenovo-laptop/m-p/5142134

Paul

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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 by: Johnny - Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:26 UTC

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 16:07:48 -0500
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/25/2023 3:11 PM, Nic wrote:
> > On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
> >>
> >> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
> >>
> >> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint
> >> 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
> >>
> >> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
> >> showing Novatech's logo.
> >>
> >> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this
> >> booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I
> >> couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either.
> >> Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >>
> > My most recent experience with a new machine turned out that the
> > nvram that the os was to be installed onto was incompatible with
> > Linux. It was hard coded for a M$ windows product. I eliminated the
> > nvram and installed to the primary ssd  with no problem.
>
> No it wasn't :-)
>
> Machines discriminate based on Secure Boot.
> Secure Boot is a means of "locking down" a PC,
> at least it was at the very first. The environment
> is different now.
>
> CSM = legacy boot
> UEFI without Secure Boot = the new boot
> UEFI with Secure Boot = to run Linux here, requires the signed
> shim, signing not revoked
>
> Do not buy a machine, which "just has the third type". Check out
> the machine details, before you buy. Read reviews. Google your ass
> off. *Do not* impulse buy computers. They're not watermelon.
>
> If you *do* have the third type, your first Linux install should
> be the most recent release you can find ("Mantic"). That will pick
> up the latest bandaid solution for Secure Boot.
>
> *******
>
> This is what I'm typing on.
>
> [Picture}
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/QtHzbkw7/msi-bios-example.gif
>
> By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
> work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
> For I have The Force. The Force is a "retail motherboard for desktop",
> the embodiment of freedom. If you give me a Dell, I will
> open a window and throw it onto the street. (I have a Dell here for
> test, and in a word, the BIOS is "just awful". It's a miserably
> behaved invention. If you select AHCI, it puts the SATA port in
> Compatible mode. No retail motherboard manufacturer would be *that*
> lame.)
>
> This is what you expect from buying retail computers, the ones that
> "sit on that table" at the computer store. A constant circus.
>
> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-IdeaPad-1xx-3xx-5xx-7xx-Edge-LaVie-Z-Flex-Laptops/Unable-to-enable-secure-boot-on-a-lenovo-laptop/m-p/5142134
>
> Paul

I have two Dell Optiplex 7050 computers with MX Linux. They are
excellent computers.

Hp has the worst BIOS I have ever seen. My wife has an HP laptop and I
installed MX Linux on it.

The mouse cursor will barely move, and it takes forever to get anything
accomplished.

Re: new machine won't boot after install

<ujusaa$36j6j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 02:32:25 -0500
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 by: Paul - Sun, 26 Nov 2023 07:32 UTC

On 11/25/2023 4:26 PM, Johnny wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 16:07:48 -0500
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 11/25/2023 3:11 PM, Nic wrote:
>>> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>>>
>>>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>>>
>>>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint
>>>> 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>>>
>>>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply
>>>> showing Novatech's logo.
>>>>
>>>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this
>>>> booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I
>>>> couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either.
>>>> Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> My most recent experience with a new machine turned out that the
>>> nvram that the os was to be installed onto was incompatible with
>>> Linux. It was hard coded for a M$ windows product. I eliminated the
>>> nvram and installed to the primary ssd  with no problem.
>>
>> No it wasn't :-)
>>
>> Machines discriminate based on Secure Boot.
>> Secure Boot is a means of "locking down" a PC,
>> at least it was at the very first. The environment
>> is different now.
>>
>> CSM = legacy boot
>> UEFI without Secure Boot = the new boot
>> UEFI with Secure Boot = to run Linux here, requires the signed
>> shim, signing not revoked
>>
>> Do not buy a machine, which "just has the third type". Check out
>> the machine details, before you buy. Read reviews. Google your ass
>> off. *Do not* impulse buy computers. They're not watermelon.
>>
>> If you *do* have the third type, your first Linux install should
>> be the most recent release you can find ("Mantic"). That will pick
>> up the latest bandaid solution for Secure Boot.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> This is what I'm typing on.
>>
>> [Picture}
>>
>> https://i.postimg.cc/QtHzbkw7/msi-bios-example.gif
>>
>> By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
>> work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
>> For I have The Force. The Force is a "retail motherboard for desktop",
>> the embodiment of freedom. If you give me a Dell, I will
>> open a window and throw it onto the street. (I have a Dell here for
>> test, and in a word, the BIOS is "just awful". It's a miserably
>> behaved invention. If you select AHCI, it puts the SATA port in
>> Compatible mode. No retail motherboard manufacturer would be *that*
>> lame.)
>>
>> This is what you expect from buying retail computers, the ones that
>> "sit on that table" at the computer store. A constant circus.
>>
>> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-IdeaPad-1xx-3xx-5xx-7xx-Edge-LaVie-Z-Flex-Laptops/Unable-to-enable-secure-boot-on-a-lenovo-laptop/m-p/5142134
>>
>> Paul
>
> I have two Dell Optiplex 7050 computers with MX Linux. They are
> excellent computers.
>
> Hp has the worst BIOS I have ever seen. My wife has an HP laptop and I
> installed MX Linux on it.
>
> The mouse cursor will barely move, and it takes forever to get anything
> accomplished.
>

Now that's an interesting defect.

The mouse controls don't appear to offer much adjustment in what
I'm running on the other screen. Basically an acceleration control,
which speeds up the mouse movement, the faster the coordinates are
changing. Mouse movement is not in direct proportion to the incrementing
action. There are two components. The base mouse movement, and the
acceleration factor. (If you move the mouse very slowly, then only
the base pixel-by-pixel movement is seen.) It sounds like your
base mouse movement is very low. But it should be "at least 1:1"
or... it's not a mouse. If the screen was HiDPI, then that might give
the appearance of a problem. I don't know if HiDPI settings have mouse
side-effects or not.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/mgtCFLgg/mouse-settings-LM.gif

If they offered scaling for base mouse movement, then it's possible
the integer effect would make it so certain coordinates were "un-reachable".

The acceleration effect on the other hand, some of the documentation
suggests it is still an integer effect. And I don't think quite the
same range is offered, as in the past. The setting "doesn't do much" now.

And when OSes won't offer the controls you want in the regular
section, you look in Accessibility for more options. But maybe
that's not going to help either.

My older mouse is nothing of note. The newer mouse was something
like 1200 DPI per inch, and sometimes Linux treats that without
any scaling (mouse pointer moves to much, gain too high). And
sometimes "they get it", and the base mouse movement is scaled
down so it doesn't go winging off into the distance. But I don't
think you're allowed to scale it up, or then you might potentially
have inaccessible coordinates on the screen.

A real test of Linux, would be treating a Razor gaming mouse,
as some of those might be on the order of 12000 DPI per inch.
Which means a fraction of a millimeter of movement, causes
multiple bits of coordinate change. And then you're dividing
the basic mouse movement by 120x to make a 96DPI screen coordinate.

*******

By the way, on Linux, if the system "does not get your mouse"
and it is USB, simply unplug it and plug it back in. Then test.
For scaling errors, that will fix it. Give that a try, if that is
possible.

That is not a particularly pleasant workaround, but, it's what I
use on my 1200 DPI mouse (which is not really an extreme mouse by the way)
if "it starts to get on my nerves" :-) I don't regularly unplug it
and plug again, for every session. But sometimes when I boot into
some distro, it's just too annoying to continue that way.

What I don't know in your case, is if that's really going to help,
since there seems to be something wrong with your base movement gain.

Paul

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
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 by: Nic - Sun, 26 Nov 2023 11:47 UTC

On 11/25/23 4:07 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 11/25/2023 3:11 PM, Nic wrote:
>> On 11/24/23 11:46 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> I'm not sure what I've fallen foul of here.
>>>
>>> New i5 machine, msi mobo. Branded Novatech.
>>>
>>> I've disabled secure boot in the bios. Then I've booted the mint 21.2 dvd and installed to the internal drive.
>>>
>>> But when I try to boot the new system, it stops in the bios simply showing Novatech's logo.
>>>
>>> (I had originally installed with secure boot enabled, but this booted to a message about secure keys needing to be set and I couldn't get round this. After, the DVD wouldn't boot either. Disabling secure boot at least allowed the dvd to boot.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Can anyone say what I'm likely to have missed please?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>> My most recent experience with a new machine turned out that the nvram that the os was to be installed onto was incompatible with Linux. It was hard coded for a M$ windows product. I eliminated the nvram and installed to the primary ssd  with no problem.
> No it wasn't :-)
>
> Machines discriminate based on Secure Boot.
> Secure Boot is a means of "locking down" a PC,
> at least it was at the very first. The environment
> is different now.
>
> CSM = legacy boot
> UEFI without Secure Boot = the new boot
> UEFI with Secure Boot = to run Linux here, requires the signed shim, signing not revoked
>
> Do not buy a machine, which "just has the third type". Check out
> the machine details, before you buy. Read reviews. Google your ass off.
> *Do not* impulse buy computers. They're not watermelon.
>
> If you *do* have the third type, your first Linux install should
> be the most recent release you can find ("Mantic"). That will pick
> up the latest bandaid solution for Secure Boot.
>
> *******
>
> This is what I'm typing on.
>
> [Picture}
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/QtHzbkw7/msi-bios-example.gif
>
> By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
> work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
> For I have The Force. The Force is a "retail motherboard for desktop",
> the embodiment of freedom. If you give me a Dell, I will
> open a window and throw it onto the street. (I have a Dell here for
> test, and in a word, the BIOS is "just awful". It's a miserably behaved
> invention. If you select AHCI, it puts the SATA port in Compatible mode.
> No retail motherboard manufacturer would be *that* lame.)
>
> This is what you expect from buying retail computers, the ones that
> "sit on that table" at the computer store. A constant circus.
>
> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-IdeaPad-1xx-3xx-5xx-7xx-Edge-LaVie-Z-Flex-Laptops/Unable-to-enable-secure-boot-on-a-lenovo-laptop/m-p/5142134
>
> Paul
As far as I am concerned it was that M2.-ssd that would not allow me to
install LM20.1, I wish I knew you better because I would donate this
board to you just to see you suffer😁

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
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Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
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 by: Paul - Sun, 26 Nov 2023 15:31 UTC

On 11/26/2023 6:47 AM, Nic wrote:

> As far as I am concerned it was that M2.-ssd that
> would not allow me to install LM20.1, I wish I knew
> you better because I would donate this board to you
> just to see you suffer😁

A flash drive that won't write at all, could be at
end of life, and has run out of write cycles.

Do you trust the vendor of the M2 device ?

Was it "really cheap on Ebay" or something ?

You can try reading out the SMART and
seeing what it says, for life statistics.

Paul

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 by: Nic - Sun, 26 Nov 2023 15:39 UTC

On 11/26/23 10:31 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 11/26/2023 6:47 AM, Nic wrote:
>
>> As far as I am concerned it was that M2.-ssd that
>> would not allow me to install LM20.1, I wish I knew
>> you better because I would donate this board to you
>> just to see you suffer😁
> A flash drive that won't write at all, could be at
> end of life, and has run out of write cycles.
>
> Do you trust the vendor of the M2 device ?
>
> Was it "really cheap on Ebay" or something ?
>
> You can try reading out the SMART and
> seeing what it says, for life statistics.
>
> Paul
It was brand new, bought it from Asendtech, it was one of those build
your own and they assemble it. I specifically asked them, yes I built it
over the phone, for a system that I could install Linux onto, it came
with no os. I spent many hours disbling secure boot , yada, yada yada to
no avail, then I finally thought to remove the M2drive, since the system
came with a ssd and a spin drive, and Linux installed.

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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 by: Paul - Sun, 26 Nov 2023 20:26 UTC

On 11/26/2023 10:39 AM, Nic wrote:
> On 11/26/23 10:31 AM, Paul wrote:
>> On 11/26/2023 6:47 AM, Nic wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I am concerned it was that M2.-ssd that
>>> would not allow me to install LM20.1, I wish I knew
>>> you better because I would donate this board to you
>>> just to see you suffer😁
>> A flash drive that won't write at all, could be at
>> end of life, and has run out of write cycles.
>>
>> Do you trust the vendor of the M2 device ?
>>
>> Was it "really cheap on Ebay" or something ?
>>
>> You can try reading out the SMART and
>> seeing what it says, for life statistics.
>>
>>     Paul
> It was brand new, bought it from Asendtech, it was one of those build your own and they assemble it. I specifically asked them, yes I built it over the phone, for a system that I could install Linux onto, it came with no os. I spent many hours disbling secure boot , yada, yada yada to no avail, then I finally thought to remove the M2drive, since the system came with a ssd and a spin drive, and Linux installed.

sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda

would give you the Smart table, but they don't like to
write a lot of extra stuff for you.

You can see here, that the LBAs written gives you some idea how much
of the drive life has been used.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/hG28wM42/crystaldiskinfo-SSD-example.gif

Using the LBA_written field, you can estimate how much of the life
is used up. Some tools list the hex value, some list the decimal value.

241 Total_LBAs_Written 0x0032 099 099 000 Old_age Always - 326032077

326,032,077 * 512 = 155.46 GB written

take device size (1000GB), multiply by 600 writes per cell,
and the amount of the device used is (gigabytes divided by gigabytes)

155
----------- = very little uses, so almost 100% life left
600 * 1000

Which is what the crystal picture shows you.

The only "mystery" is how we know the magic coefficient is 600 :-)
Well, it's a branded device and I got the "600" from the manufacturer
site, near the bottom of the web page.

Like most devices, it scales.

Their 1TB device is 600 TBW, their 4TB device is 2400 TBW.

There is an Acard storage device, that has 12000 TBW and it
costs over a thousand bucks. It was intended for Chia mining.

If you found a lot of "Power-On-Hours", or a lot of "LBAs-Written",
then you know something is not right with what you were given.

Some fake devices, have an SD card and a little circuit, to make
a fake response, and Linux isn't going to finish an install on
one of those.

Mine will go read only, once the number above becomes a lot larger,
and closer to 600,000 GB of writes.

Paul

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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From: usenet...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid (Mike Scott)
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Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
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 by: Mike Scott - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:37 UTC

On 25/11/2023 21:07, Paul wrote:
> By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
> work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
> F

Thanks for the extended replies.

To cut through, I'll say that for the moment the m/c is dead in the
water. I enabled CSM mode for the BIOS, now it won't boot anything, and
I can't get to the BIOS at all. I've put in a support call to Novatech.

But on the way:

I disabled secure boot. Than:

1. I installed and booted freebsd 11 (ancient!) without issue. Basic
system, no gui stuff; /dev/sndstat looked reasonable though.

2. I booted the mint dvd (compatibility mode; normal won't boot), and
installed mint again. That just hung - no grub even. I booted the dvd
again, and selected 'boot next volume'. That brought up the nvram's
grub, and the new system booted. But no support for hardware - no sound,
primitive basic video.

3. Then I enabled CSM mode.........

It's weird.

Does anyone have any linux running on this h/ware - msi board, intel i5?
I can't imagine not.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

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 by: Mike Scott - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 15:27 UTC

On 27/11/2023 11:37, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 25/11/2023 21:07, Paul wrote:
>> By having "legacy aka CSM" support set up, I can make anything
>> work on there. Your so-called "Evil NVRAM" does not scare me.
>> F
......
> 3. Then I enabled CSM mode.........
>
> It's weird.
>
> Does anyone have any linux running on this h/ware - msi board, intel i5?
> I can't imagine not.
>
>

I'm not sure whether it's red-face time or not.

After a helpful call to Novatech tech support, I took the lid off and
did a full cmos reset. Whatever state it was in, that cleared it. For
the record, Mint now boots happily with proper video and sound, in the
default UEFI mode. The machine uses an MSI H610 mobo.

But caveats:
* The internal graphics is switched off with a video card plugged in;
* If I try switching to IGP, the BIOS starts on the card, then puts its
GUI on the internal output. However, the OS boots using the external
card only; internal is invisible (real pain)
* I /still/ don't know why no BIOS was visible on either monitor when I
posted. It suggests something's a bit fragile in the code.

Thanks to all for trying to clear up my mystery; I'm glad the outcome
has been positive.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

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From: not.in....@invalid.xor (lisa)
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 by: lisa - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 08:54 UTC

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 15:27:21 +0000, Mike Scott
<usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

>But caveats:
>* The internal graphics is switched off with a video card plugged in;
>* If I try switching to IGP, the BIOS starts on the card, then puts its
>GUI on the internal output. However, the OS boots using the external
>card only; internal is invisible (real pain)
>* I /still/ don't know why no BIOS was visible on either monitor when I
>posted. It suggests something's a bit fragile in the code.

you can find in the manual of your mobo how it behave when you plug in
a video card.

Re: new machine won't boot after install

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
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Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
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 by: John B. - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 09:46 UTC

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 09:54:12 +0100, lisa <not.in.use@invalid.xor>
wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 15:27:21 +0000, Mike Scott
><usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>But caveats:
>>* The internal graphics is switched off with a video card plugged in;
>>* If I try switching to IGP, the BIOS starts on the card, then puts its
>>GUI on the internal output. However, the OS boots using the external
>>card only; internal is invisible (real pain)
>>* I /still/ don't know why no BIOS was visible on either monitor when I
>>posted. It suggests something's a bit fragile in the code.
>
>you can find in the manual of your mobo how it behave when you plug in
>a video card.

See, you don't know nothing!

Why, I'll bet that you have never been taught skills for accident
avoidance, mastering traffic dynamics and negotiations, anticipating
hazards and more.
You better call Frank, post haste! Maybe he'll send you some lesson
plans and then you'll be safe.

As an aside the little 6 year old girl I've mentioned is actually 7
years old and it turns out that she is a classmate of my Housekeeper's
son. I asked the little boy to ask the girl who taught her how to ride
a bicycle and he reported back this afternoon that the little girl had
said that "her mother had taught her to be careful of cars and never
ride out in the road where the big cars are but to stay on the side of
the road where the cars can't hit her".

Apparently Frank is patting himself on the back for teaching what a
Thai housewife teaches her daughter.
--
Cheers,

John B.

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From: slocom...@gmail.com (John B.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: new machine won't boot after install
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2023 17:26:45 +0700
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 by: John B. - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 10:26 UTC

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 16:46:53 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 09:54:12 +0100, lisa <not.in.use@invalid.xor>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 15:27:21 +0000, Mike Scott
>><usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But caveats:
>>>* The internal graphics is switched off with a video card plugged in;
>>>* If I try switching to IGP, the BIOS starts on the card, then puts its
>>>GUI on the internal output. However, the OS boots using the external
>>>card only; internal is invisible (real pain)
>>>* I /still/ don't know why no BIOS was visible on either monitor when I
>>>posted. It suggests something's a bit fragile in the code.
>>
>>you can find in the manual of your mobo how it behave when you plug in
>>a video card.
>
>
>See, you don't know nothing!
>
>Why, I'll bet that you have never been taught skills for accident
>avoidance, mastering traffic dynamics and negotiations, anticipating
>hazards and more.
>You better call Frank, post haste! Maybe he'll send you some lesson
>plans and then you'll be safe.
>
>As an aside the little 6 year old girl I've mentioned is actually 7
>years old and it turns out that she is a classmate of my Housekeeper's
>son. I asked the little boy to ask the girl who taught her how to ride
>a bicycle and he reported back this afternoon that the little girl had
>said that "her mother had taught her to be careful of cars and never
>ride out in the road where the big cars are but to stay on the side of
>the road where the cars can't hit her".
>
>Apparently Frank is patting himself on the back for teaching what a
>Thai housewife teaches her daughter.

Sorry guys I posted to the wrong site. My apologies.
--
Cheers,

John B.

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