Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
that it may be irreplaceable.

It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
the last 30 years.

People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
well they work.

The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were
integrated, so they worked well.

Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
questions?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Am 17.11.2023 um 15:02:06 Uhr schrieb Steve Hayes:

> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
> the last 30 years.

Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
support.
If you still need Windows 7, move that into a virtual machine in
VirtualBox.

> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
> well they work.

Run it with any current system, like Windows 11 or Linux and use
VirtualBox.

> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
> they have hidden disadvantages?

Virtual machines are not emulators, it is a real operating system
running separated from your normal "host" OS.

In message <p9oelitcsv7st4g42edsd6ac7rreeilrud@4ax.com> at Fri, 17 Nov
2023 15:02:06, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> writes
>Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>that it may be irreplaceable.
>
>It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means

If you mean new machines, then yes - although a 32-bit version of
Windows 10 does exist, I've never seen a new machine offered with it,
and I don't think there _is_ a 32-bit version of Windows 11.

As others have said, new machines have hardware for which '7 drivers do
not exist. Virtual machines, though, emulate hardware for which -
obviously - drivers do exist. There might be _some_ difficulty in
"passing through" the host OS, so you can access e. g. USB ports
(assuming the new machine even has any USB2 ones), though I think these
are surmountable.

When I lost my 7 machine, and replaced it (January this year IIRR), I
found a shop selling several (second-hand) Windows 7 laptops - with 32
bit as a definite option; when I asked him why, he said lots of people
were in the same situation as you, wanting to run 32-bit software or
hardware. You may find - if you can find such a dealer - such a machine
still a step-up on your old one; I have been enjoying this one (compared
to my old one, it has a bigger screen so proper keyboard, 4G [the 32-bit
maximum] instead of 3G RAM, and I think a more powerful processor).

>they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>the last 30 years.

If/when you do get something that can run the old software, probably
worth seeing if there is a way of converting the data (presumably
involving getting an updated version of the software - maybe not the
latest version, if that can't, but a transitional version, that can read
the old and write the new; may need some digging to find).
>
>People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
>Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
>money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
>someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
>well they work.

As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like,
including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the
activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.
[]
Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You _are_ Zaphod Beeblebrox? _The_ Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox. I come in six-packs." (from the link episode)

On 11/17/2023 7:36 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <p9oelitcsv7st4g42edsd6ac7rreeilrud@4ax.com> at Fri, 17 Nov
> 2023 15:02:06, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> writes
>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>> that it may be irreplaceable.
>>
>> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>
> If you mean new machines, then yes - although a 32-bit version of
> Windows 10 does exist, I've never seen a new machine offered with it,
> and I don't think there _is_ a 32-bit version of Windows 11.
>
> As others have said, new machines have hardware for which '7 drivers do
> not exist. Virtual machines, though, emulate hardware for which -
> obviously - drivers do exist. There might be _some_ difficulty in
> "passing through" the host OS, so you can access e. g. USB ports
> (assuming the new machine even has any USB2 ones), though I think these
> are surmountable.
>
> When I lost my 7 machine, and replaced it (January this year IIRR), I
> found a shop selling several (second-hand) Windows 7 laptops - with 32
> bit as a definite option; when I asked him why, he said lots of people
> were in the same situation as you, wanting to run 32-bit software or
> hardware. You may find - if you can find such a dealer - such a machine
> still a step-up on your old one; I have been enjoying this one (compared
> to my old one, it has a bigger screen so proper keyboard, 4G [the 32-bit
> maximum] instead of 3G RAM, and I think a more powerful processor).
>
>> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>> the last 30 years.
>
> If/when you do get something that can run the old software, probably
> worth seeing if there is a way of converting the data (presumably
> involving getting an updated version of the software - maybe not the
> latest version, if that can't, but a transitional version, that can read
> the old and write the new; may need some digging to find).
>>
>> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
>> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
>> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
>> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
>> well they work.
>
> As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
> of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like,
> including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
> as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the
> activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.
> []
> Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
> old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?

I have a windows 10 64-bit machine and a Windows 11 64-bit machine.
Both machines are able to run licensed versions of windows 32-bit OS by
using the free version of VMWare Workstation 17.

I use VMWare Workstation 17 to run versions of XP, Windows 7, Windows 8
and Windows 10. I am able to create virtual systems using 32 or 64 bit
OS installation media.

Once you setup Workstation 17 you can create the virtual 32-bit Windows
of your choice provided you can find the proper install download of your
desired OS. Then, if you had used a Microsoft login account on your old
PC Microsoft might even "remember" you had an activated version and
re-activate your fresh install. If not, you will have to locate an old
activation key for your fresh install be it from an old PC or elsewhere.

You might want to give one of the pre-created Virtual downloads from
VMWare of Windows 7 to test things but I believe you will still need to
activate with a valid license or put up with the OS complaining it's not
activated.

https://customerconnect.vmware.com/group/vmware/get-download?downloadGroup=WKST-700-WIN

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
> that it may be irreplaceable.
>
> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
> the last 30 years.

64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
need to run. Correct?

If so, tell us a bit what kind of software/programs those are, so
maybe 'we' can suggest other methods than setting up a Windows 7 (or 8?
or 10?) virtual machine.

> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
> well they work.
>
> The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
> years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
> than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were
> integrated, so they worked well.
>
> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
> they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
> experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
> questions?

On 11/17/23 07:06, Marco Moock wrote:

[snip]

> Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
> support.

Are these programs compatible with Windows 10 32-bit?

[snip]

> Virtual machines are not emulators, it is a real operating system
> running separated from your normal "host" OS.

--
38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"There was never such a gigantic lie told as the fable of the Garden of
Eden."

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:02:06 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
> that it may be irreplaceable.
>
> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
> the last 30 years.
>
> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
> well they work.
>
> The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
> years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
> than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were
> integrated, so they worked well.
>
> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
> they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
> experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
> questions?

Your Windows 64-bit OS will run 32-bit programs. I presume you have
some 16-bit programs which will run on 32-bit Windows but not on
64-bit Windows.

A. I have Windows 10 64-bit with Windows 10 32-bit running inside
a virtual machine (the free-for-personal-use VMWare Workstation
Player version 16). It works.

You will need a separate MS licence for the Windows 32-bit OS
running inside the virtual machine, in addition to the licence
for the Windows 64-bit OS that comes with the computer you buy.

The virtual machine only emulates the computer hardware. You
must install the Windows 32-bit OS in the virtual machine,
similar to how you install Windows on a physical machine.

B. If you have 16-bit programs to run, you might want to look into
WineVDM. WineVDM claims to be able to run 16-bit programs on
64-bit Windows. I have not tried WineVDM myself, so I cannot
advise how well it works.
<https://github.com/otya128/winevdm>

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

Ὁ βίος βραχύς, ἡ δὲ τέχνη μακρή
Vita brevis, ars longa
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne

In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
[]
>38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
>for 1 day).
[]
Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
-- Abraham Lincoln quoted by Mark Lloyd in alt.windows7.general 2018-12-27

J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes []
>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>> 12:00 AM for 1 day).
> [] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?

Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
--
Daniel

In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
<daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes []
>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>>> 12:00 AM for 1 day).
>> [] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>
>Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
>'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!

I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
ambiguity.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)

John Hall wrote on 18/11/23 9:13 pm:
> In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
> <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>> J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
>>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>>> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes []
>>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>>>> 12:00 AM for 1 day).
>>> [] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>>
>> Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
>> 'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
>
> I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
> uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
> clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
> ambiguity.

Yeap!! Many long years ago, a place I used to work required 24/7
attendance so had shift-work. On week-ends, the shifts were 12 hours
shifts, but they never referred to a shift starting at either 12:00.

It was either 11:59am or 11:59pm, no 12:00 either way!!
--
Daniel

On 11/17/2023 8:02 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
> that it may be irreplaceable.
>
> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
> the last 30 years.
>
> People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
> Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
> money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
> someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
> well they work.
>
> The nearest thing I have found to that was OS/2, now more than 25
> years old, which had built in emulators that ran MS-Windows better
> than Windows, and MS-Dos better than DOS. But there the emulators were
> integrated, so they worked well.
>
> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
> they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
> experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
> questions?

Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
into finding just the right laptop setup.

While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
without the VM.

*******

VirtualBox has USB passthru. This allows a Guest OS to run a GPS,
operate a webcam, operate a scanner, and so on, as long as they're USB.
Some of the competitors, only allow certain "classes" of USB devices
to work (maybe USB sticks and USB hard drives). VirtualBox on the
other hand, is a "USB packet router", and works at the packet level
to "pass" a device inside to the Guest. That is one of its best features.

On W10 and W11, there is an inverted hypervisor, and VirtualBox staff
had to change how their product worked, and it is now a "client" of
the Windows hypervisor. VirtualBox is no longer as "smooth" as it once
was, it's a bit slower, and it freezes on occasion. If you ran VirtualBox
on a Linux laptop, your Windows 7 session would then work better. In Linux,
the hypervisor is still conventional in nature. And many releases of
VirtualBox, worked in that conventional environment.

VirtualBox has always needed hand tuning. Before they can release a
new version, it has to be tested against all the "supported" Guest OSes.
For example, just about every second release, had a problem with Windows 2000
and multiple cores. A core on the machine would "rail", due to the fact
Windows 2000 had a crude first-gen ACPI implementation. And the Virtualbox
people used to "do something" to make it work properly :-) So when
VirtualBox release notes tell you "what OSes are supported", it simply
means they have run the Guests and made sure nothing weird happened.
If you insist on running old stuff (say Win98), there is no way to know
whether it is fixed or busted on a given new release. And the list of
OSes they "support", gets shorter on each new release.

VMWare Workstation is full of "quirks". They do stuff just so it
can "be the VMWare way". What they do, doesn't have to make sense.
For example, in their support forum, a user admitted to writing a
piece of software, to get around a pretty egregious interface choice,
and begged them to take his source, at least look at it, and incorporate
the function in the next version of Workstation. Of course they just
ignored him. Even if some low-level "official response" offered
one of those "we will consider this, as a feature request", that
would be a polite response. Feature requests are frequently entirely
ignored, but "classifying" your input as an FR is a way of saying
"of course we're going to ignore you, but thanks for thinking about us".

Hyper-V is a product from Microsoft, which is a follow-in to VirtualPC.
Originally, Microsoft bought a portion of Connectix, and acquired
Connectix Virtual PC. Virtual PC worked on only one CPU core, and
used a conventional hypervisor. But because it worked on only one
CPU core, it was "buttery smooth". As Windows 7 booted in there,
the animation was perfect. When any VM switches to multiple core
support, there is usually some amount of less-ideal behavior, that
gives away you're in a VM. Hyper-V as a product, is patronizing,
and does not offer the "easy interface" that Virtual PC had. Versions
of Virtual PC only work in one OS version, so no, the Win7 version
of Virtual PC won't run in W10 or W11, and the OS won't even allow
you to try to install it.

Hyper-V runtime interface (so you can run Guests), should be
available in Win10 Pro or Win11 Pro. A lot of plain laptops
at the computer store, come with Win10 Home or Win11 Home.
And that removes the opportunity to use a Microsoft hosting software.

In W11Home, I can show you a bunch of stuff that looks like
Hyper-V is supported, but the interface to run Guests is missing.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/vmrHy0dm/W11-Windows-Features-tick-boxes.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/Y09p1kL4/hyper-v-win7-no-result.gif

On W11Pro, when I tried to create a VM, using the x32 DVD for Win7,
it couldn't even "see" the disc. It refused it, since the disc is
not a hybrid as far as I know, and only supports legacy boot.

The second attempt was with a Win7 x64 DVD, and that started to load,
suggesting it was hybrid. How the Win7 normally works, is it
sucks in the entire boot.wim into RAM, and sets up a RAM disk in
memory with the file contents. Then the Win7 animation starts to play,
while the OS is booting. Well, the animation did not start, and the
machine appeared frozen.

It's pretty hard to tell someone to run off and buy a copy of Pro,
just for Hyper-V, after that little demo. Sure, if I'd tried some
other DVD, I'm sure it would spring to life like a trooper. But it's
a pretty expensive "hobby" if it does not give results. VirtualBox
won't do that. While Virtualbox does have sucky bits, you can get
a result out of it. The legacy boot is good. The EFI boot is "meh",
but I have managed to get something running. For Windows 7, you'd be
doing a legacy boot.

Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working.

The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
assured of having media for the job.

Paul

On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
> []
>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
>> for 1 day).
> []
> Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?

Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call
"midnight".

--
37 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in
its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral
progress in the world." [Bertrand Russell]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 10:13:35 +0000, John Hall <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <uj9sj0$38ddd$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
><daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> writes
>>J. P. Gilliver wrote on 18/11/23 5:04 am:
>>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>>>11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes []
>>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>>>> 12:00 AM for 1 day).
>>> [] Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>>
>>Surely one of the '12:00' would be 'AM' .... but whether that is
>>'Midnight' or 'Midday' ..... Pass!
>
>I often see references to 12 AM and 12 PM, and I'm sometimes left
>uncertain as to whether noon or midnight was meant. Use of the 24-hour
>clock (or simply using the words "noon" and "midnight") avoids any
>ambiguity.

I don't think I've ever met anyone (until now?) who found 12 AM and 12 PM to be
ambiguous. Interesting.

On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
>> []
>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
>>> for 1 day).
>> []
>> Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>
> Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call
> "midnight".
>
that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM

In comp.os.ms-windows.misc Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@air.isp.spam> wrote:
> On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> > On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> >> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
> >> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
> >> []
> >>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
> >>> for 1 day).
> >> []
> >> Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
> >
> > Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people call
> > "midnight".
> >
> that is why a military time is 0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM

Not only military time, but also the time in sane countries! :-)

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:
> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
> []
>>38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023 12:00 AM
>>for 1 day).
> []
> Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?

12:00 AM is one minute before 12:01 AM (midnight).
12:00 PM is one minute before 12:01 PM (noon).

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Will write code for food.
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:37:28 -0600, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
wrote:

>On 11/17/23 07:06, Marco Moock wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Current machines have hardware that doesn't have Windows 7 drivers
>> support.
>
>Are these programs compatible with Windows 10 32-bit?

I don't know, I've never tried it, but I assume that if they ran OK
under Windows 7 32-bit they would run OK under Windows 10 32-bit.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:36:41 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <p9oelitcsv7st4g42edsd6ac7rreeilrud@4ax.com> at Fri, 17 Nov
>2023 15:02:06, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> writes
>>Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>>that it may be irreplaceable.
>>
>>It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>>laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>
>If you mean new machines, then yes - although a 32-bit version of
>Windows 10 does exist, I've never seen a new machine offered with it,
>and I don't think there _is_ a 32-bit version of Windows 11.
>
>As others have said, new machines have hardware for which '7 drivers do
>not exist. Virtual machines, though, emulate hardware for which -
>obviously - drivers do exist. There might be _some_ difficulty in
>"passing through" the host OS, so you can access e. g. USB ports
>(assuming the new machine even has any USB2 ones), though I think these
>are surmountable.

Yes, that is one of the things I want to know.

If I can find a 32-bit Win7 or Win-10 machine, that would be my
preference, but if I can't, I want to know what a Virtual Box can and
cannot do, preferably from someone who had used or is using one.

>When I lost my 7 machine, and replaced it (January this year IIRR), I
>found a shop selling several (second-hand) Windows 7 laptops - with 32
>bit as a definite option; when I asked him why, he said lots of people
>were in the same situation as you, wanting to run 32-bit software or
>hardware. You may find - if you can find such a dealer - such a machine
>still a step-up on your old one; I have been enjoying this one (compared
>to my old one, it has a bigger screen so proper keyboard, 4G [the 32-bit
>maximum] instead of 3G RAM, and I think a more powerful processor).

My wife's Win-11 64-bit laptop is far slower than my Win7 laptop was,
and my Win 7 laptop was in turn far slower than my Win-XP 32-bit
desktop (on which I'm typing this). I blame that on bloatware.

I might ask her if I can try out one of these virtual box things on
her computer, but I don't know if that would mean repartitioning her
hard drive or something of the sort, which might make things even
worse.

>
>>they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>>allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>>the last 30 years.
>
>If/when you do get something that can run the old software, probably
>worth seeing if there is a way of converting the data (presumably
>involving getting an updated version of the software - maybe not the
>latest version, if that can't, but a transitional version, that can read
>the old and write the new; may need some digging to find).

That is possible with some of it, but not all. In some cases the new
version of just one program would be prohibitively expensive, about 5
times the cost of a new laptop. I investigated that possibility about
3-4 years ago, and concluded it wasn't worth it.

I do have a Windows version of one such DOS program, and have
converted some files, but not others, as the DOS version is more
powerful and has more functionality.

>>People have told me that it is possible to run a virtual machine on a
>>Win 64-bit computer that will emulate a 32-bit OS, but before I spend
>>money on a computer that might not work for me, I'd like to hear from
>>someone who has had experience in running such things, to find out how
>>well they work.
>
>As others have said, it's not an emulation of the OS, it's an emulation
>of a complete system - on which you can install whatever OS you like,
>including of course W7-32. You'll need a valid licence to do so - as far
>as MS are concerned, you're running two computers - though I believe the
>activation servers for 7 are getting fairly lax in their checking now.

And then the question is: how well does that complete system interact
with the host system?

Is it possible to have the programs on the emulator and the data on
the host system? Can one copy and paste between them?

>Does what you want to do involve accessing external hardware, or just
>old data (presumably on an external drive, CD, DVD, or memory stick)?

I used to copy my main data files (the ones I was working on every
day) between by desktop and laptop using a USB flash drive, and a
batch file, or rather set of batch files that copied everything with
one command -- dsk2flsh, flsh2lap, lap2flsh, flsh2dsk.

One advantage of that is that our electricity supplier has periodic
load shedding when demand exceeds supply and they would turn off the
power to certain areas in rotation, and when that happened I could
just transfer the files to the laptop and carry on working.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 17 Nov 2023 16:16:59 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>> that it may be irreplaceable.
>>
>> It was running Windows 7, 32-bit, and it seems that most, if not all,
>> laptops sold nowadays with Windows installed are 64-bit, which means
>> they won't run a lot of my software, and that means that they won't
>> allow me to access a lot of the research data I have collected over
>> the last 30 years.
>
> 64-bit Windows systems can run 32-bit software/programs just fine, so
>I think you mean you (also) have *16-bit* software/programs which you
>need to run. Correct?

Yes, and 8-bit ones too. 32-bit Windows runs those just fine, at least
all the ones I use regularly. There are some it doesn't, but that's a
hardware rather than an O/S problem, something to do with clock speed.
Programs written in TurboPascal, for example, won't run on faster
machines.

> If so, tell us a bit what kind of software/programs those are, so
>maybe 'we' can suggest other methods than setting up a Windows 7 (or 8?
>or 10?) virtual machine.

InMagic and askSam text databases are the main ones, XyWrite word
processor, which I use, inter alia, for converting files from other
old word processing programs, and for reporting from the text
databases.

It's not easily possible to print reports from the text database
programs to Windows printers, but one can easily design reports that
include XyWrite formatting commands, import the report into XyWrite,
export it as RTF, and load it into a Windows word processor to produce
formatted reports, though short reports can juse be copy/pasted.
XyWrite formatting commands work in the same way as HTML ones, though
the commands themselves are not the same.

Just to give an example of copy/pasting, here:

Best books read in 2023, sorted by rating:

87 Lewis, C.S. 1965 [1952] The voyage of the Dawn Treader.

85 Cooper, Susan. 2010 [1965] Over sea, under stone.

84 Carlisle, Clare. 2020. Philosopher of the Heart.

83 Tudor, C.J. 2017. The Chalk Man.

82 Hughes, Richard. 1964. The Fox in the Attic.

82 Robotham, Michael. 2009. Shatter.

82 Shaik, Moe. 2020. The ANC Spy Bible: Surviving across Enemy
Lines.

81 Barrows, Annie. 2015. Magic in the Mix.

81 Erlings, Fridrik. 2006. Benjamin Dove.

81 Greene, Graham. 1975 [1938] Brighton Rock.

78 King, Stephen. 2000. On writing: a memoir.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:56:47 +1300, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid>
wrote:

>Your Windows 64-bit OS will run 32-bit programs. I presume you have
>some 16-bit programs which will run on 32-bit Windows but not on
>64-bit Windows.
>
>
> A. I have Windows 10 64-bit with Windows 10 32-bit running inside
> a virtual machine (the free-for-personal-use VMWare Workstation
> Player version 16). It works.
>
> You will need a separate MS licence for the Windows 32-bit OS
> running inside the virtual machine, in addition to the licence
> for the Windows 64-bit OS that comes with the computer you buy.
>
> The virtual machine only emulates the computer hardware. You
> must install the Windows 32-bit OS in the virtual machine,
> similar to how you install Windows on a physical machine.

Thanks very much, that is one of the things I wanted to know.

How well does software running in the virtual machine communicate with
the host?

Can one, for example, copy/paste between them?

Can the virtual machine read/write files on the host system?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:53:03 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 11/17/2023 8:02 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>> that it may be irreplaceable.

<snip>

>> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
>> they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
>> experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
>> questions?
>
>Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
>into finding just the right laptop setup.
>
>While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
>needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
>without the VM.

<snip>

>Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
> works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
> Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
> I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working.
>
> The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
> Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
> and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
> the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
> going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
> assured of having media for the job.

Thanks very much for that -- best advice I've seen so far.

I'll print it out, show it to my local computer shop, and ask if he
can give me a quote for replacement, including a new copy of an O/S
for a Virtual Machine it a replacement for the original can't be got,
and pass it on to the insurance, but it may prove that the old machine
is irreplaceable, which has some very nasty implications for all the
people who have been advocating the digitisation of archival records
and destruction of the originals to save space.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 07:07:30 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:56:47 +1300, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Your Windows 64-bit OS will run 32-bit programs. I presume you have
>> some 16-bit programs which will run on 32-bit Windows but not on
>> 64-bit Windows.
>>
>>
>> A. I have Windows 10 64-bit with Windows 10 32-bit running inside
>> a virtual machine (the free-for-personal-use VMWare Workstation
>> Player version 16). It works.
>>
>> You will need a separate MS licence for the Windows 32-bit OS
>> running inside the virtual machine, in addition to the licence
>> for the Windows 64-bit OS that comes with the computer you buy.
>>
>> The virtual machine only emulates the computer hardware. You
>> must install the Windows 32-bit OS in the virtual machine,
>> similar to how you install Windows on a physical machine.
>
> Thanks very much, that is one of the things I wanted to know.
>
> How well does software running in the virtual machine communicate with
> the host?
>
> Can one, for example, copy/paste between them?

Yes, you can copy/paste between the virtual machine and the host.
You must install VMware tools in the virtual machine's OS for
this to work.

<https://docs.vmware.com/en/VMware-Workstation-Player-for-Windows/16.0/com.vmware.player.win.using.doc/GUID-A93BA99A-E182-478F-A5EF-470F31BAA1EE.html>

> Can the virtual machine read/write files on the host system?

You can set up a shared folder on the host system, and let the
virtual machine read/write files in the shared folder.

<https://docs.vmware.com/en/VMware-Workstation-Player-for-Windows/16.0/com.vmware.player.win.using.doc/GUID-0C23FCBF-F0CC-447B-A08E-35B90C52091E.html>

For any other details...
1) The online user guide is here:
2) The web page also has a link (at the top) to download a PDF
copy for offline reading:
<https://docs.vmware.com/en/VMware-Workstation-Player-for-Windows/16.0/com.vmware.player.win.using.doc/GUID-B8509247-258C-4B11-8637-5DABACEA4965.html>

--
Kind regards
Ralph Fox

Spring is sprung, the grass is riz, I wonder where the birdies is.
They say the bird is on the wing — but that’s absurd; I thought the wing was on the bird.

On 11/19/2023 12:41 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:53:03 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/17/2023 8:02 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Someone stole my laptop computer, and I'm beginning to be concerned
>>> that it may be irreplaceable.
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Do today's third-party emulators work as well as the OS/2 ones, or do
>>> they have hidden disadvantages? Is there anyone here who has had
>>> experience of using them who would be willing to answer a few
>>> questions?
>>
>> Based on my experience, I would recommend you put the extra work
>> into finding just the right laptop setup.
>>
>> While VMs are fun, you sound like someone who actually
>> needs this stuff to work. You would be much more productive
>> without the VM.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Summary: I don't think you need a new hobby, you need something that
>> works, and that is physical hardware with Win7 on it.
>> Skylake is the last processor that officially supports Win7.
>> I don't really know how "close" the later processors get to working.
>>
>> The W10 x32 might work, but then, it would be W10.
>> Refurbs might have W10 x64, but you could download a W10 x32
>> and do a clean install of that (write down the key you find in
>> the x64, as the same key will install x32 or x64). If you were
>> going to do that, download the W10 x32 ISO first, so you can be
>> assured of having media for the job.
>
> Thanks very much for that -- best advice I've seen so far.
>
> I'll print it out, show it to my local computer shop, and ask if he
> can give me a quote for replacement, including a new copy of an O/S
> for a Virtual Machine it a replacement for the original can't be got,
> and pass it on to the insurance, but it may prove that the old machine
> is irreplaceable, which has some very nasty implications for all the
> people who have been advocating the digitisation of archival records
> and destruction of the originals to save space.

To make a Win7 VM, I recommend getting media and installing
in VirtualBox and making your own, personal, virtual machine.
For patching it up, you can use wsusoffline preparation software
(there's a version just for doing Windows 7 prep work).

Getting media is tricky. It used to be easy. We would abuse DigitalRiver
download links, which had Win7 media (ISO files) for the grabbing.

I discovered, while trying to figure out a solution for you, that archive.org
seems to have placed a 2GB file limit on downloads. If I try to download
a virtual machine file which is archived on the site (some of those are 5GB),
the download stops at 2GB. I tried about three different files, and the
response was the same. I used aria2c downloader (which has restart capability),
and if you try to restart a download at the 2GB mark, archive.org refuses to
respond.

That told me that using archive.org as a source of media, is now out of the
question. I was thinking of digging up an archived W7 and
giving you the link to that, to get media.

W7 has probably been removed entirely from Techbench and MSDN subscriptions
(Microsoft sources).

And I don't know where else to try, except a computer store with old stock.
For example, the chinese guys store down town, I know he has a cabinet
with Refurbisher hologram DVDs in it, but those are all 64 bit and there
are absolutely no 32 bit in the display case. The refurbisher DVD is just like
a retail one. But refurbs only seemed to come with 64-bit OSes on them.

This is a hell of a time to be trying to "raise W7 from the dead", so to speak :-)
A hell of a time. It will be easier to fly to Mars, than to get a 32-bit DVD now.

The problem with me giving you en-us ISO files, is during activation,
the media may use geolocation, and sometimes it does not "like" the
location doing the activation, to "not be en-us". Someone was complaining
they took valid en-us media on a trip to China with them, installed an OS,
and they could not get it to activate while they were sitting in China.
At the time, VPNs were not a thing, or someone would have suggested that.

*******

Also, if you go the virtual machine route, you have to be careful to
make backups of your virtual machine file. Microsoft does not provide
high quality support for activation issues with virtual machines. You
can ask the poster "T" (todd), regarding what happened to his
virtual machine that was activated. He could not get Microsoft to help
him, and restore his activation. Backing up the container,
is to provide a means to roll back and regain your activation.
Not all activation issues can be fixed that way, but some of them can.

Absolutely none of my VMs are activated with paid licenses. Neither
do I dabble in Daz Loader as a solution (that's a crack for activation).

Archive.org is *full* of copies of media. But the recent stoppage of
downloads at the 2GB mark, makes a collection like this one, useless.
You see, someone even uploaded the digitalriver collection.

https://archive.org/download/digital_river

At least the Index file works :-)

https://ia801300.us.archive.org/30/items/digital_river/xxx17index_file.txt

Paul

Zaidy036 wrote on 19/11/23 7:00 am:
> On 11/18/2023 12:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 11/17/23 12:04, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> In message <sxN5N.46596$AqO5.22600@fx11.iad> at Fri, 17 Nov 2023
>>> 11:37:28, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> writes
>>> []
>>>> 38 days until the winter celebration (Monday, December 25, 2023
>>>> 12:00 AM
>>>> for 1 day).
>>> []
>>> Is "12:00 AM" syntactically valid?
>>
>> Yes (<hour>:<minute><space><dayperiod>). Its the same thing people
>> call "midnight".
>>
> that is why a military time is  0000 - 2400 and no need for AM/PM

.... but, even then, did 'they ever refer to '24:00'?? 23:59 sure, 00:01
sure, but 24:00 .... I'm thinking not!
--
Daniel