Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

<lilo> I've always wanted to have a web site with a big picture of a carrot on it


computers / alt.os.linux.mint / Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

SubjectAuthor
* Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Yrrah
+- Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Paul
`* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
 +* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?pinnerite
 |`- Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
 +* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
 |`* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Paul
 | `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Big Al
 |  `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Paul
 |   `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
 |    `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?pinnerite
 |     `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
 |      `- Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Paul
 `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Jack
  +- Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Nic
  `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
   `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Nic
    `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
     `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Nic
      `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
       `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Nic
        `* Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Mike Easter
         `- Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?Nic

1
Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7240&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7240

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx02.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Yrrah-a...@aolm.invalid (Yrrah)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Sender: Yrrah <Yrrah-aolm@aolm.invalid>
Organization: Subversion International
Message-ID: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
X-No-Archive: yes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 18
X-Complaints-To: http://support.highwinds-media.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 13:09:55 UTC
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:09:55 +0100
X-Received-Bytes: 1381
 by: Yrrah - Thu, 7 Dec 2023 13:09 UTC

" We’re almost done with the testing. We’re expecting a BETA release
this week."
"Starting with Cinnamon 6.0, you’ll be able to download, enable and
rate [Nemo] actions the same way as applets, desklets, extensions and
Cinnamon themes."
"With Linux Mint 21.3 and Cinnamon 6.0 we’ll start providing
experimental (as in ALPHA) support for Wayland. As previously
announced this won’t take priority over Xorg, we’ll take our time to
fix Wayland issues, but we’ll start accepting bug reports
nonetheless."
Blog: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4604

Why include experimental Wayland support ("as in ALPHA") in an
official release?, I wonder. Who's going to use an alpha version?

Yrrah

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<uksl9o$1a0c1$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7241&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7241

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.chmurka.net!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!news.nntp4.net!news5.corell.dk!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 09:36:39 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <uksl9o$1a0c1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 14:36:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="42a201c787b01bf18c3c1c6881835949";
logging-data="1376641"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/EpltqQqs+1rejaMJb5DoViaMjiNP6WDk="
User-Agent: Ratcatcher/2.0.0.25 (Windows/20130802)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:xnh0FRTz6blJErbIu20uI7TNfvQ=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
 by: Paul - Thu, 7 Dec 2023 14:36 UTC

On 12/7/2023 8:09 AM, Yrrah wrote:
> " We’re almost done with the testing. We’re expecting a BETA release
> this week."
> "Starting with Cinnamon 6.0, you’ll be able to download, enable and
> rate [Nemo] actions the same way as applets, desklets, extensions and
> Cinnamon themes."
> "With Linux Mint 21.3 and Cinnamon 6.0 we’ll start providing
> experimental (as in ALPHA) support for Wayland. As previously
> announced this won’t take priority over Xorg, we’ll take our time to
> fix Wayland issues, but we’ll start accepting bug reports
> nonetheless."
> Blog: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4604
>
> Why include experimental Wayland support ("as in ALPHA") in an
> official release?, I wonder. Who's going to use an alpha version?
>
>
> Yrrah
>

Potentially, you can have more than one DE option listed
in the login screen.

Ubuntu # I had this on my Ubuntu 22.04 setup
Ubuntu on Wayland
...

I used something like that a while back, to test that
Firefox really did support Xorg, Wayland, and XWayland.
And that required installing a second DE option
in the distro I was using. I did this a year ago.

"wayland" [ means working directly under wayland at present ]
"xwayland" [ running legacy X11 by using xwayland compatibility part of wayland]
"x11" [ running X11 under X11 ]

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/MHgVxtC7/FF10402-three-modes.gif

One way you can tell what you're running, is GLXgears.
On the test machine, legacy Xorg gives close to 20,000 FPS
in GLXgears. Using Wayland yielded 11,000 FPS. Bench your
card now, and when the ALPHA material comes along, bench again,
and compare.

Typically, the second option below is used now, rather than the first.
These disconnect VSYNC, so instead of recording just "60FPS",
the video card runs flat out and gives bench numbers.

vblank_mode=0 glxgears

__GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK=0 glxgears

Once you get the rate high enough, the machine may be
saturating or limiting, on interrupts. I'm not convinced
the bench is "linear" to infinity, but may have a serious
kink half way up. You could easily have a card three times
as good as mine, and maybe in Xorg it would still read
20,000 FPS.

The price of having two DEs as a choice, might mean
a larger installer DVD.

Paul

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7245&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7245

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 16:47:47 -0800
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net NgGYFupJ20Ou2R5QszvefA+PJzsZmnBapQgM055ks3XkANzLVH
Cancel-Lock: sha1:HsrEzM/R7wg0PRhQp12Ixo9xfJ0= sha256:m0DqiUX95YiN1ivYUoYeHNwhbdsXuoYfcSLOxzRPT7s=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Sun, 10 Dec 2023 00:47 UTC

Yrrah wrote:
> Why include experimental Wayland support ("as in ALPHA") in an
> official release?, I wonder. Who's going to use an alpha version?

It's optional.

I dl/ed the Cinn 21.3 beta, checked its hash & sig, wrote it to a Ventoy
stick and booted it live. The default is X11. Then I logged out and
the login gave me the option of booting Wayland, which I did.

It is Cinn 6 w/ optional Wayland. On the live boot, the Welcome screen
didn't come up, but it is available from the menu and has 21.3 info & a
link to New Features and other useful guides.

I couldn't find any links to the dl dir from the mint index page, but
here's the NF page:
https://linuxmint.com/rel_virginia_whatsnew.php

.... and the ftp dl dir: https://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/linuxmint.com/testing/

I haven't explored the beta long enough to comment on it more; here's
some 9to5.
https://9to5linux.com/cinnamon-6-0-desktop-environment-arrives-with-initial-wayland-support

https://9to5linux.com/linux-mint-21-3-beta-is-now-available-for-download-with-cinnamon-6-0

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<20231210134122.6b11e8596aa13827d7a9721e@gmail.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7247&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7247

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 13:41:22 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <20231210134122.6b11e8596aa13827d7a9721e@gmail.com>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="3cd3ba63c2d0cfe96d79e739fd9f02f2";
logging-data="2840882"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+uSWShNptVpyTIbY5GEcDoPqHZ8lzaRPg="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:VPup/7xaCtnuhA8LxdXhsnKRF+w=
X-Newsreader: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
 by: pinnerite - Sun, 10 Dec 2023 13:41 UTC

On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 16:47:47 -0800
Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

> Yrrah wrote:
> > Why include experimental Wayland support ("as in ALPHA") in an
> > official release?, I wonder. Who's going to use an alpha version?
>
> It's optional.
>
> I dl/ed the Cinn 21.3 beta, checked its hash & sig, wrote it to a Ventoy
> stick and booted it live. The default is X11. Then I logged out and
> the login gave me the option of booting Wayland, which I did.
>
> It is Cinn 6 w/ optional Wayland. On the live boot, the Welcome screen
> didn't come up, but it is available from the menu and has 21.3 info & a
> link to New Features and other useful guides.
>
> I couldn't find any links to the dl dir from the mint index page, but
> here's the NF page:
> https://linuxmint.com/rel_virginia_whatsnew.php
>
> ... and the ftp dl dir: https://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/linuxmint.com/testing/
>
> I haven't explored the beta long enough to comment on it more; here's
> some 9to5.
> https://9to5linux.com/cinnamon-6-0-desktop-environment-arrives-with-initial-wayland-support
>
> https://9to5linux.com/linux-mint-21-3-beta-is-now-available-for-download-with-cinnamon-6-0
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Easter

Within the next few days I will be ready to test my new home-build. I had Mint 21.2 lined up for installation but I am now inclined to try 21.3-beta. Presumably subsequent updates will bring it to being equal to the final release?

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-89-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ktm564Fto6iU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7248&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7248

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 07:52:35 -0800
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <ktm564Fto6iU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
<20231210134122.6b11e8596aa13827d7a9721e@gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net p6CPxRiMV0ir8cLuVMz4hwHjsg+m8gIhTO3Rz1zR3cgA9alMm+
Cancel-Lock: sha1:DlRTVYtrlK/XLtrZBGlnxfCFr2s= sha256:irSJxuZJqhpUQFIQ1x0zoBaLRhCSUJaGQocHelTwgTs=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <20231210134122.6b11e8596aa13827d7a9721e@gmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Sun, 10 Dec 2023 15:52 UTC

pinnerite wrote:
> Within the next few days I will be ready to test my new home-build. I
> had Mint 21.2 lined up for installation but I am now inclined to try
> 21.3-beta. Presumably subsequent updates will bring it to being equal
> to the final release?

Yes. I generally assume that betas are going to be somewhat 'rougher'
than actual releases because they have been thru' less testing. But
that notion or its inaccuracy depends on a lot of things; the luck of
the draw, the number and skills of the dev/s as well as the testers, and
how many hurdles have been leaped for the .iso. In this case quite a few.

When I read reviews done by skilled reviewers like Jesse Smith,
sometimes I see his review of a release which is considerably rougher
than some of the few betas I've sampled.

Generally I don't dl and boot betas, I'm inclined to wait for the
release, but I was curious to see Cinn 6, Wayland by Mint, and how the
option for X11 vs Wayland 'worked out'.

I guess I would say that an installer needs to be more cautious than a
live booter, who has very little 'invested' in a boot. When you
install, right away you start tweaking things in advance of the system
being long-standing. When I boot live, I don't do that, unless I'm
booting a live w/ persistence and a persistence I'm happy w/. I seem to
run into more and more persistence schemes that I am NOT happy w/. I
recently discovered that Sparky's alleged persistence is completely
useless to my concept of persistence.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7257&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7257

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 13:44:13 -0800
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: individual.net omf/srXkrv2la9Cs9eT4WwQ1fuaciUek4Vs4Z4MCZ63yOK/k8W
Cancel-Lock: sha1:woJ5U0060nv/jVZAW18U0NBHDVE= sha256:EB8/BS+fYim/27T/s+a8iAw2r+rL0IQiSQXxl9GF1Z0=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Tue, 12 Dec 2023 21:44 UTC

Mike Easter wrote:
> It is Cinn 6 w/ optional Wayland.

From inxi G:
Display: wayland server: X.Org v: 1:22.1.1 with : Xwayland v: 22.1,1
driver: X

wp:
> XWayland is an X Server running as a Wayland client, and thus is
> capable of displaying native X11 client applications in a Wayland
> compositor environment.[44] This is similar to the way XQuartz runs X
> applications in macOS’s native windowing system. The goal of XWayland
> is to facilitate the transition from X Window System to Wayland
> environments, providing a way to run unported applications in the
> meantime. XWayland was mainlined into X.Org Server version 1.16.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7262&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7262

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.hispagatos.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 19:14:05 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 00:14:06 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="aa7d14016488b5c5bec1def84bbc2aeb";
logging-data="4060609"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX181JGQjGXnH3xhAwkXDiLi03JLsPE1DWTE="
User-Agent: Ratcatcher/2.0.0.25 (Windows/20130802)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ktv84VklCGetfBubVj+v72jpEeU=
In-Reply-To: <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Paul - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 00:14 UTC

On 12/12/2023 4:44 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> It is Cinn 6 w/ optional Wayland.
>
> From inxi G:
> Display: wayland server: X.Org v: 1:22.1.1 with : Xwayland v: 22.1,1
> driver: X
>
> wp:
>> XWayland is an X Server running as a Wayland client, and thus is
>> capable of displaying native X11 client applications in a Wayland
>> compositor environment.[44] This is similar to the way XQuartz runs X
>> applications in macOS’s native windowing system. The goal of XWayland
>> is to facilitate the transition from X Window System to Wayland
>> environments, providing a way to run unported applications in the
>> meantime. XWayland was mainlined into X.Org Server version 1.16.

Arch diagram for people new to Wayland. XWayland will eventually be removed.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/The_Linux_Graphics_Stack_and_glamor.svg

( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 )

Whereas this set of info, is the "eventual disposition" with the
"pesky bits removed". A kind of Poettering diagram, if you know
what I mean (deprecate legacy before transition complete). X11 is completely
removed, if you believe this. Whereas the previous diagram, shows what
ships today.

# Oh, brave new world. No Xeyes. No XClock. No X11R5 tree of memorabilia . Etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Wayland_display_server_protocol.svg

Here is XEyes running on *Windows 11* :-)

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/8PHDnt2b/XEyes-on-Windows11.gif

Paul

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7263&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7263

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bea...@invalid.com (Big Al)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 22:38:19 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 03:38:19 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="f566a74826f64d8673db8b627a2f1e3b";
logging-data="36016"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX184ISJTZ2i4O/QWlciDB8aLTf35BewfQIQ="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:dSKSSL1aB2yWA/1SEtCUOUioU38=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Big Al - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 03:38 UTC

On 12/12/23 07:14 PM, this is what Paul wrote:
> On 12/12/2023 4:44 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>> It is Cinn 6 w/ optional Wayland.
>>
>> From inxi G:
>> Display: wayland server: X.Org v: 1:22.1.1 with : Xwayland v: 22.1,1
>> driver: X
>>
>> wp:
>>> XWayland is an X Server running as a Wayland client, and thus is
>>> capable of displaying native X11 client applications in a Wayland
>>> compositor environment.[44] This is similar to the way XQuartz runs X
>>> applications in macOS’s native windowing system. The goal of XWayland
>>> is to facilitate the transition from X Window System to Wayland
>>> environments, providing a way to run unported applications in the
>>> meantime. XWayland was mainlined into X.Org Server version 1.16.
>
> Arch diagram for people new to Wayland. XWayland will eventually be removed.
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/The_Linux_Graphics_Stack_and_glamor.svg
>
> ( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 )
>
> Whereas this set of info, is the "eventual disposition" with the
> "pesky bits removed". A kind of Poettering diagram, if you know
> what I mean (deprecate legacy before transition complete). X11 is completely
> removed, if you believe this. Whereas the previous diagram, shows what
> ships today.
>
> # Oh, brave new world. No Xeyes. No XClock. No X11R5 tree of memorabilia . Etc.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Wayland_display_server_protocol.svg
>
> Here is XEyes running on *Windows 11* :-)
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/8PHDnt2b/XEyes-on-Windows11.gif
>
> Paul
What are the benefits of Wayland? I suppose there must be benefits!
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7264&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7264

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 00:28:21 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me> <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 05:28:23 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="aa7d14016488b5c5bec1def84bbc2aeb";
logging-data="62823"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19wJ/cCaHly+AxzKD4Jcb9jKgcVinOsbP4="
User-Agent: Ratcatcher/2.0.0.25 (Windows/20130802)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:h1fI1E6Nm4lEDYUbhbPOMK4OA6Q=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Paul - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 05:28 UTC

On 12/12/2023 10:38 PM, Big Al wrote:

> What are the benefits of Wayland? I suppose there must be benefits!

Of course.

<crickets>

Well, you see, the previous software was old and smelly,
and so some guys had to make a new and smelly replacement.

"Initial release 30 September 2008; 15 years ago[1]"

"The Wayland Display Server project was started by Red Hat
developer Kristian Høgsberg in 2008.

I can tell you, the graphics guy for Firefox, was pissed
to have to implement support for all three graphics options.
This makes extra work for everyone else. You can run Firefox
in any of the three modes and it works (I tested it). In your
LightDM screen or similar, there would be "DE" or "DE under Wayland"
as a means to switch between them. Normally, you'd only have one
DE loaded, so you need to add something to do this kind of testing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28protocol%29

Will there be porting assistance ? Would there be Athena Widgets
or Motif Library support, for porting old programs to the new
environment (an environment where eventually XWayland will be removed) ?
I bet they would break my TVTime, after Pulseaudio broke TVTime
years ago. Fortunately, the analog tuner sits in my junkroom now,
so I could hardly complain if they broke it again.

I bet even Puppy will be severely affected, eventually. Development
of X, support for it, will stop, and the Puppy team will have to
consider what to do next to keep old computers running.

The VLC team will have work to do. The FFMPEG team too (screen capture
with the X11 grabber).

*******

A post from a year ago...

I tried all three modes, and they worked for me. Ubuntu 2204. NVidia driver.
There were no reboots to capture the three modes. Firefox Snap 104.0.2 .

"wayland" [ means working directly under wayland at present ]
"xwayland" [ running legacy X11 by using xwayland compatibility part of wayland]
"x11" [ running X11 under X11 ]

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/MHgVxtC7/FF10402-three-modes.gif

One of the tricks (when a Wayland DE is being used) is:

MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 firefox

Presumably it would use XWayland if you don't pass the environment variable.

Paul

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ktu6irFp48jU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7265&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7265

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.chmurka.net!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:05:30 -0800
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <ktu6irFp48jU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me> <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
<ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net 7Bp8R+juuOlWlnfirkigjwoQIxi8o8kcUx2waIfMyODtRloywI
Cancel-Lock: sha1:fkF3bk62dzgol6IhWnM3Yrmnr0o= sha256:mthAoLvmOXyVz/mU2UbZRs2JPbxafM9kwVPYPqUB4Gg=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 17:05 UTC

Paul wrote:
> I bet even Puppy will be severely affected, eventually.

Barry Kauler has moved on from Puppy to EasyOS, leaving future Puppy dev
to his followers. He said he would be 'pushing up daisies' before he
had to deal w/ W.

In that post, he cited an essay by Igor Ljubuncic of Dedoimedo on the
topic, which was written in 2021. There have been a lot of thoughtful
essays about Wayland vs Xorg over the years since the struggle has been
going on so long.

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/wayland-2021.html
> Let's talk about Wayland ... Updated: March 1, 2021

IL is not a linux 'fanboi', but he writes a lot about it and does reviews.

I guess one might say that the 'theme' of his article is that the
Wayland issue is certainly a lot of trouble for a desktop w/ such a
small market share or some such.

https://bkhome.org/news/202112/easyos-most-likely-staying-with-xorg.html
> I think that by the time I get to thinking of moving to Wayland, I'll
> be pushing up daisies.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<20231213190221.93ea54ad1df4c7b0a36fb6e6@gmail.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7266&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7266

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:02:21 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <20231213190221.93ea54ad1df4c7b0a36fb6e6@gmail.com>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
<kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me>
<ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
<ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me>
<ktu6irFp48jU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bb1935d66039d788efd08a0c7aaa018b";
logging-data="1027544"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19yJ3pOkqX2G/DzQ+Q2J8gvP7OU5UeLvhU="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:rGixsB2+vK8FVe4sCpsIPLGWwJI=
X-Newsreader: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
 by: pinnerite - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:02 UTC

On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:05:30 -0800
Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

> Paul wrote:
> > I bet even Puppy will be severely affected, eventually.
>
> Barry Kauler has moved on from Puppy to EasyOS, leaving future Puppy dev
> to his followers. He said he would be 'pushing up daisies' before he
> had to deal w/ W.
>
> In that post, he cited an essay by Igor Ljubuncic of Dedoimedo on the
> topic, which was written in 2021. There have been a lot of thoughtful
> essays about Wayland vs Xorg over the years since the struggle has been
> going on so long.
>
> https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/wayland-2021.html
> > Let's talk about Wayland ... Updated: March 1, 2021
>
> IL is not a linux 'fanboi', but he writes a lot about it and does reviews.
>
> I guess one might say that the 'theme' of his article is that the
> Wayland issue is certainly a lot of trouble for a desktop w/ such a
> small market share or some such.
>
> https://bkhome.org/news/202112/easyos-most-likely-staying-with-xorg.html
> > I think that by the time I get to thinking of moving to Wayland, I'll
> > be pushing up daisies.
>
>
> --
> Mike Easter

Being a brass-bottomed cynic, I sometimes wonder if these major shifts to new technology like Pulseaudio or Wayland is just an ego trip for someone wishing to leave his mark.

But that is an assumption from the uninformed. So why is it going to be better?

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-89-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ktug1rFr2faU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7267&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7267

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:47:05 -0800
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <ktug1rFr2faU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me> <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
<ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me> <ktu6irFp48jU1@mid.individual.net>
<20231213190221.93ea54ad1df4c7b0a36fb6e6@gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net GYI89UXgC1iWSA9STerUBAIOuC0XSX414mgf9Bl70cZtWVQBR8
Cancel-Lock: sha1:yCZ0ALPAu8+fIN7ceC6Hxmub7Ro= sha256:dQCGTdjsYWITSA+qflj3iIB0mFI+r1luamsPdWWeCDc=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <20231213190221.93ea54ad1df4c7b0a36fb6e6@gmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:47 UTC

pinnerite wrote:
> Being a brass-bottomed cynic, I sometimes wonder if these major shifts to new technology like Pulseaudio or Wayland is just an ego trip for someone wishing to leave his mark.
>
> But that is an assumption from the uninformed. So why is it going to be better?

I can read all of that hairy display information, but I don't really
'appreciate' it internally.

But, the great leaders, consider one of those to be RedHat, are
definitely committed to Wayland to the extent that they are dropping
Xorg server.

From a poorly 'informed' user perspective, about all I can really do is
understand the simpler parts of the structure; that is that X11 is a
protocol and RH is 'retaining' and supporting the X11 protocol while
dropping its 'child' Xorg server.

Thus its 'old' support will NOT be Xorg server, WILL be X11 AND XWayland
and of course Wayland.

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/rhel-10-plans-wayland-and-xorg-server Red
Hat Enterprise Linux 10 plans for Wayland and Xorg server

Of course, we can credit RH w/ such as leading the charge for systemd,
Gnome 3 Shell, and Wayland. Systemd is OK w/ me, Gnome3Shell isn't, and
I don't really get whether it is worth the trouble to use XWayland today
instead of Xorg server, but I guess I can.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<uld451$106p0$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7268&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7268

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 15:28:16 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <uld451$106p0$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <kts2heFa5e0U1@mid.individual.net>
<ulat0d$3rte1$1@dont-email.me> <ulb8vb$135g$1@dont-email.me>
<ulbfdn$1tb7$1@dont-email.me> <ktu6irFp48jU1@mid.individual.net>
<20231213190221.93ea54ad1df4c7b0a36fb6e6@gmail.com>
<ktug1rFr2faU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 20:28:18 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="3dc8702d701f125d46fb6e45501cf28d";
logging-data="1055520"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/paBlvG5RjOzyiSjszeyM9ITGK1m/IaTE="
User-Agent: Ratcatcher/2.0.0.25 (Windows/20130802)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:t9lRLnhFFvD9nIeG5cdYLhjTaik=
In-Reply-To: <ktug1rFr2faU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Paul - Wed, 13 Dec 2023 20:28 UTC

On 12/13/2023 2:47 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> pinnerite wrote:
>> Being a brass-bottomed cynic, I sometimes wonder if these major shifts to new technology like Pulseaudio or Wayland is just an ego trip for someone wishing to leave his mark.
>>
>> But that is an assumption from the uninformed. So why is it going to be better?
>
> I can read all of that hairy display information, but I don't really 'appreciate' it internally.
>
> But, the great leaders, consider one of those to be RedHat, are definitely committed to Wayland to the extent that they are dropping Xorg server.
>
> From a poorly 'informed' user perspective, about all I can really do is understand the simpler parts of the structure; that is that X11 is a protocol and RH is 'retaining' and supporting the X11 protocol while dropping its 'child' Xorg server.
>
> Thus its 'old' support will NOT be Xorg server, WILL be X11 AND XWayland and of course Wayland.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/rhel-10-plans-wayland-and-xorg-server Red Hat Enterprise Linux 10 plans for Wayland and Xorg server
>
> Of course, we can credit RH w/ such as leading the charge for systemd, Gnome 3 Shell, and Wayland.  Systemd is OK w/ me, Gnome3Shell isn't, and I don't really get whether it is worth the trouble to use XWayland today instead of Xorg server, but I guess I can.

If you do start testing these display options,
don't forget to check the GLXGears with VSync
turned off. I noticed in X11, I could get 20000 FPS
in GLXGears, and in XWayland I was getting 11000 FPS.

Part of testing a new display system, is seeing
what you are paying for it. Granted, not all benchmarks
run in a fair and balanced manner, on wildly different
display stacks. It might not be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Paul

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7269&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7269

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!not-for-mail
From: inva...@invalid.001 (Jack)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 05:14:59 +0000
Organization: To protect and to server
Message-ID: <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 05:18:34 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: paganini.bofh.team; logging-data="3833851"; posting-host="Wyhk8rhTkK/Go7A1YZOD8w.user.paganini.bofh.team"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@bofh.team"; posting-account="9dIQLXBM7WM9KzA+yjdR4A";
Cancel-Lock: sha256:eG3yPS89IVBUT95HtWSZC4fn+5Q0H83hxRbz7/N8zTU=
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.3
Content-Language: jp
 by: Jack - Thu, 14 Dec 2023 05:14 UTC

On 10/12/2023 00:47, Mike Easter wrote:
>
>
> I dl/ed the Cinn 21.3 beta, checked its hash & sig, wrote it to a
> Ventoy stick and booted it live.� The default is X11.� Then I logged
> out and the login gave me the option of booting Wayland, which I did.
I have moved on to LMDE Edition. Linux Mint Debian Edition is supposed
to takeover from the ubuntu version according to industry experts.
Ubuntu's future is uncertain because of all the changes it is making
because of Microsoft. I never knew M$ had a say in what Ubuntu does but
that is what it is.

<https://linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php>

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<lBBeN.24246$83n7.4244@fx18.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7270&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7270

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx18.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.13.0
Reply-To: Nic@none.net
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
In-Reply-To: <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <lBBeN.24246$83n7.4244@fx18.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 11:24:01 UTC
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:24:00 -0500
X-Received-Bytes: 1527
 by: Nic - Thu, 14 Dec 2023 11:24 UTC

On 12/14/23 12:14 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 00:47, Mike Easter wrote:
>>
>> I dl/ed the Cinn 21.3 beta, checked its hash & sig, wrote it to a
>> Ventoy stick and booted it live.  The default is X11.  Then I logged
>> out and the login gave me the option of booting Wayland, which I did.
> I have moved on to LMDE Edition. Linux Mint Debian Edition is supposed
> to takeover from the ubuntu version according to industry experts.
> Ubuntu's future is uncertain because of all the changes it is making
> because of Microsoft. I never knew M$ had a say in what Ubuntu does but
> that is what it is.
>
> <https://linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php>
>
Aha, that would explain all the confusion.

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7271&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7271

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 09:54:49 -0800
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net sLl5nCYbN0zc8bKS3cSvyw0cg2Pm5HZlZCDpn8JuCdL86VmhbD
Cancel-Lock: sha1:pClp05wNjLm9+CJ/P+be5jYQBPA= sha256:vXwRQLcDe82vgfA8GWzgT2pale+6E045DRNR6l8VCHo=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Thu, 14 Dec 2023 17:54 UTC

Jack wrote:
> I have moved on to LMDE Edition.

I like Debian as a base and I like the LMDE. I can't say I like it
'better' than LM.

LM fixes a lot of things that Ub does wrong. LMDE 'fixes' some things
that the parent Deb doesn't do. Both of them are better children than
the parent that is their base IMO.

Deb the parent is pretty much a stickler for free, altho' they've
loosened their policies on that by improving the availability of their
non-free repo.

Ub the parent has a wonderful repo that LM is able to use.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7289&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7289

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx16.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.13.0
Reply-To: Nic@none.net
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
In-Reply-To: <ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:31:05 UTC
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:31:05 -0500
X-Received-Bytes: 1652
 by: Nic - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:31 UTC

On 12/14/23 12:54 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> I have moved on to LMDE Edition.
>
> I like Debian as a base and I like the LMDE. I can't say I like it
> 'better' than LM.
>
> LM fixes a lot of things that Ub does wrong.  LMDE 'fixes' some things
> that the parent Deb doesn't do.  Both of them are better children than
> the parent that is their base IMO.
>
> Deb the parent is pretty much a stickler for free, altho' they've
> loosened their policies on that by improving the availability of their
> non-free repo.
>
> Ub the parent has a wonderful repo that LM is able to use.
>
I think you missed the point, think of M$ getting involved with Linux
more like a Trojan Horse. If M$ gets involved with Linux there is no
telling how deep the compromise goes.

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7292&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7292

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.mixmin.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 08:34:31 -0800
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net hHoano+QAN3hskMyX4UhNgSziwmgmRQ2aoRWUa7II2C6AGcrZ/
Cancel-Lock: sha1:STgDX/67nrN7NJLpULnsTX6XAYg= sha256:yloPWR+p2NfG6V48WaPCYA+3ikyYNBE6d/JfQttYQDg=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:34 UTC

Nic wrote:
> I think you missed the point, think of M$ getting involved with Linux
> more like a Trojan Horse. If M$ gets involved with Linux there is no
> telling how deep the compromise goes.

The MS of yesteryear is not the same MS of today.

Whatever 'linux' is, is not the same 'linux' as yesteryear's.

MS will /still/ be looking out for its own interests and how to best
accomplish that.

Canonical is trying to find its way to greater profitability. RedHat
has found their own way which has worked out pretty well for them, all
things considered.

Capitalism is both a force for innovation and a potentially nasty business.

Maybe I've been solving too many cryptoquotes :-)

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7294&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7294

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx45.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.13.0
Reply-To: Nic@none.net
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net>
From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
In-Reply-To: <ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:08 UTC
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:43:08 -0500
X-Received-Bytes: 1872
 by: Nic - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43 UTC

On 12/16/23 11:34 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Nic wrote:
>> I think you missed the point, think of M$ getting involved with Linux
>> more like a Trojan Horse. If M$ gets involved with Linux there is no
>> telling how deep the compromise goes.
>
> The MS of yesteryear is not the same MS of today.
>
> Whatever 'linux' is, is not the same 'linux' as yesteryear's.
>
> MS will /still/ be looking out for its own interests and how to best
> accomplish that.
>
> Canonical is trying to find its way to greater profitability. RedHat
> has found their own way which has worked out pretty well for them, all
> things considered.
>
> Capitalism is both a force for innovation and a potentially nasty
> business.
>
> Maybe I've been solving too many cryptoquotes :-)
>
You have. Too Pollyanna -ish, you can count on M$ to torpedo Linux every
chance it has, it is a business, and as a business it will give Linux
the business.

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7296&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7296

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!newsfeed.endofthelinebbs.com!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 08:49:21 -0800
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net> <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net ksLzeVaHLbTGSNQ+AIvOPAhUN70V0q8dD/4peyMGf3FSQmYfKI
Cancel-Lock: sha1:y8SochpJ+EQC/BXoPiCvBXZucsE= sha256:3Rvwdt1deH0KBFzgcMN5KaWpdr4oR8yyT3FhTjuZo/k=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:49 UTC

Nic wrote:
> you can count on M$ to torpedo Linux every chance it has, it is a
> business, and as a business it will give Linux the business.

I consider the 'forces' to be open source vs closed source. MS is still
'fundamentally' a closed source enterprise while linux is almost
entirely not. And in many senses, open source is winning.

Open source is what is important, not whether a business makes a profit
or not.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<KUkfN.37264$Ama9.10131@fx12.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7297&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7297

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx12.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.13.0
Reply-To: Nic@none.net
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net> <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
<ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
In-Reply-To: <ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <KUkfN.37264$Ama9.10131@fx12.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:13:14 UTC
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 12:13:14 -0500
X-Received-Bytes: 1899
 by: Nic - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:13 UTC

On 12/16/23 11:49 AM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Nic wrote:
>> you can count on M$ to torpedo Linux every chance it has, it is a
>> business, and as a business it will give Linux the business.
>
> I consider the 'forces' to be open source vs closed source.  MS is
> still 'fundamentally' a closed source enterprise while linux is almost
> entirely not.  And in many senses, open source is winning.
>
> Open source is what is important, not whether a business makes a
> profit or not.
>
That is a bit too abstract, think of it like a group of men and women on
one team and a group of men and women on the other team. They all have
to eat. One group volunteers his or her or her and his services the
other group is on the payroll to be profitable. I do not trust the good
folks that work for M$.

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<ku68bpFjcrtU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7299&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7299

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!news.nntp4.net!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Mik...@ster.invalid (Mike Easter)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:24:55 -0800
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <ku68bpFjcrtU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net> <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
<ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net> <KUkfN.37264$Ama9.10131@fx12.iad>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: individual.net UqAINUoi+/eX52wXZIKYEQ+c6woKTxUqP5BS4hKP2G+p7MHRoX
Cancel-Lock: sha1:lYUwxKZrROxNlIP5Uiz3jITj1Kg= sha256:iBcrzvHjZVqnmeYxf2f3l/quTuS5jkgWTQVCkvmVCno=
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.10.0
In-Reply-To: <KUkfN.37264$Ama9.10131@fx12.iad>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Mike Easter - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:24 UTC

Nic wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> Nic wrote:
>>> you can count on M$ to torpedo Linux every chance it has, it is a
>>> business, and as a business it will give Linux the business.
>>
>> I consider the 'forces' to be open source vs closed source. MS is
>> still 'fundamentally' a closed source enterprise while linux is
>> almost entirely not. And in many senses, open source is winning.
>>
>> Open source is what is important, not whether a business makes a
>> profit or not.
>>
> That is a bit too abstract, think of it like a group of men and women
> on one team and a group of men and women on the other team. They all
> have to eat. One group volunteers his or her or her and his services
> the other group is on the payroll to be profitable. I do not trust
> the good folks that work for M$.

In case you haven't noticed, Canonical Ltd is a .uk private co with a
thousand employees and ofc/s all over the world w/ a payroll of millions.

> The company now plans to focus on its server and professional support
> solutions, which have proved to be most profitable. Through this,
> Canonical plans to maintain solvency and achieve long-term
> profitability.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/mark-shuttleworth-sees-increased-demand-for-enterprise-ubuntu-linux-desktop/

> Canonical's real money comes from the cloud and Internet of Things,
> but AI and machine learning developers are demanding -- and getting
> -- Ubuntu Linux desktop with enterprise support.

'20 Canonical had $141 mil rev & a few mil profit

RH has 19,000 employees, revenue in the billions and profits in the
hundreds of millions.

> Red Hat operates on a business model based on open-source software,
> development within a community, professional quality assurance, and
> subscription-based customer support. They produce open-source code so
> that more programmers can make adaptations and improvements.

Part of Canonical's problem is their 'missteps'.

--
Mike Easter

Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?

<t9mfN.9641$m4d.5626@fx43.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7300&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7300

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx43.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.13.0
Reply-To: Nic@none.net
Subject: Re: Linux Mint 21.3 with Wayland support?
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
References: <a6g3nih6hgqeshqnri47diumn8bdlj392r@net.com>
<ktkg5kFganlU1@mid.individual.net> <ule37a$3kvvr$1@paganini.bofh.team>
<ku0trbFdk8jU1@mid.individual.net> <JwifN.55083$7sbb.51968@fx16.iad>
<ku61soFi2bhU1@mid.individual.net> <wskfN.32569$q3F7.10580@fx45.iad>
<ku62oiFi8igU1@mid.individual.net> <KUkfN.37264$Ama9.10131@fx12.iad>
<ku68bpFjcrtU1@mid.individual.net>
From: Nic...@none.net (Nic)
Organization: Arm Chair Observer
In-Reply-To: <ku68bpFjcrtU1@mid.individual.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <t9mfN.9641$m4d.5626@fx43.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse(at)newshosting.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:39:21 UTC
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:39:21 -0500
X-Received-Bytes: 3177
 by: Nic - Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:39 UTC

On 12/16/23 1:24 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Nic wrote:
>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>> Nic wrote:
>>>> you can count on M$ to torpedo Linux every chance it has, it is a
>>>> business, and as a business it will give Linux the business.
>>>
>>> I consider the 'forces' to be open source vs closed source. MS is
>>>  still 'fundamentally' a closed source enterprise while linux is
>>> almost entirely not.  And in many senses, open source is winning.
>>>
>>> Open source is what is important, not whether a business makes a
>>> profit or not.
>>>
>> That is a bit too abstract, think of it like a group of men and women
>> on one team and a group of men and women on the other team. They all
>> have to eat. One group volunteers his or her or her and his services
>> the other group is on the payroll to be profitable. I do not trust
>> the good folks that work for M$.
>
> In case you haven't noticed, Canonical Ltd is a .uk private co with a
> thousand employees and ofc/s all over the world w/ a payroll of millions.
>
>> The company now plans to focus on its server and professional support
>> solutions, which have proved to be most profitable. Through this,
>> Canonical plans to maintain solvency and achieve long-term
>> profitability.
>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/mark-shuttleworth-sees-increased-demand-for-enterprise-ubuntu-linux-desktop/
>
>
>> Canonical's real money comes from the cloud and Internet of Things,
>> but AI and machine learning developers are demanding -- and getting
>> -- Ubuntu Linux desktop with enterprise support.
>
> '20 Canonical had $141 mil rev & a few mil profit
>
> RH has 19,000 employees, revenue in the billions and profits in the
> hundreds of millions.
>
>> Red Hat operates on a business model based on open-source software,
>> development within a community, professional quality assurance, and
>> subscription-based customer support. They produce open-source code so
>> that more programmers can make adaptations and improvements.
>
> Part of Canonical's problem is their 'missteps'.
>
The "Cloud" ate my password!

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor