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computers / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

SubjectAuthor
* which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPastor Pentium
+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakMarco Moock
|+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
||+- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakMarco Moock
||`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|| `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakMarco Moock
||  +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPoprocks
||  |+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakDavid W. Hodgins
||  ||`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPoprocks
||  || `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
||  ||  `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakStéphane CARPENTIER
||  |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
||  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
||   `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakMarco Moock
|`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPoprocks
+- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakBit Twister
+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Andreas Kohlbach
|`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPoprocks
| `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Andreas Kohlbach
|  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Andreas Kohlbach
+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Dan Espen
|`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakMarco Moock
| +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakLew Pitcher
| |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPoprocks
| +- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Dan Espen
| `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakStéphane CARPENTIER
|   |+- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakStéphane CARPENTIER
|   | |`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | | `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakStéphane CARPENTIER
|   | |  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | |   +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakJim Jackson
|   | |   |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | |   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   | |    `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | |     `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakRoger Blake
|   | |      +- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | |      `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   | `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPancho
|   |  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakStéphane CARPENTIER
|   |   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPancho
|   |    `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |     `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakCharlie Gibbs
|   |      `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |       `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |        `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakBit Twister
|   |         +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Richard Kettlewell
|   |         |`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         | `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |    `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |     `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakBit Twister
|   |         |+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         ||`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         || `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         ||  `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakPancho
|   |         |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakBit Twister
|   |         ||`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |+- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Richard Kettlewell
|   |         | `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Richard Kettlewell
|   |         |   +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakRoger Blake
|   |         |   |+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|   |         |   ||+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |   |||`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |   ||| `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |   |||  `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |   ||`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |   || `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|   |         |   ||  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |   ||   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|   |         |   ||    `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |   ||     `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakRobert Riches
|   |         |   ||      `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |   |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakThe Natural Philosopher
|   |         |    `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Richard Kettlewell
|   |         |     `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|   |         |      +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Richard Kettlewell
|   |         |      |+- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Computer Nerd Kev
|   |         |      |`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         |      `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   |         `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakCharlie Gibbs
|   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Bud Frede
|    `- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Anna
|`- Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
+* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???Dan Espen
|`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
| `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakRobert Riches
|  `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak25.BX945
|   +* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpakRobert Riches
|   `* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???jan Anja
`* Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???John McCue

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Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<87ilqhhxaa.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>

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From: ank...@spamfence.net (Andreas Kohlbach)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 17:01:49 -0400
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 by: Andreas Kohlbach - Sat, 7 May 2022 21:01 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 12:30:22 -0400, 25.BX945 wrote:
>
> On 5/5/22 8:54 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>> My oldest Debian installation (this article is written on it) is
>> twelve
>> years old. The new was installed last December. But hadn't noticed snap or
>> flatpak.
>
> Debian is pretty vanilla, conservative, careful. However
> the more popular distros - the Ubuntu semi-clones esp -
> always try to be "cutting edge" and are prone to putting
> weird stuff in there. Ubuntu itself ... every time I do
> an installation these days I spend half an hour removing
> "Ubuntuisms", all the cloud stuff especially. Sometimes
> I kill Netplan and force it back to /etc/network like
> in the old days. I may just give up on Ubuntu Server for
> professional stuff, go back to Debian. It's easier to
> add a little extra stuff to Debian than it is to
> remove all the crap from Ubuntu.

You can use testing or even SID with if Debian if you wanted it bleeding edge.

> Alas even Debian finally went systemd .... but there are
> still some derivatives which stick with init.d and are
> thus a lot more like your 12 year old Deb.

Also mine was moved over to systemd. Didn't read about it when the update
came; may be thought it was something like the switch from hotplug to udev
decades ago. Boy I was wrong. Anyway, after some glitches in the first
months it works for me.

> My personal desktop had been down for nearly a year, I'd
> been working off of laptops. Finally revived it last week,
> and installed Debian - not Ubuntu, not Mint - and basic
> LXDE.

Dunno how old your laptop it.

My 10 year old got the 12 (might even be 14) year old Debian installation
(imparted from another machine) where I chose 32 Bit on a AMD64. I opted for
Gnome. Got slow over the years so I installed MATE alongside.

On the "new" desktop (from 2014) I freshly installed Mint with MATE (64 Bit
this time). Both look pretty much the same to me: Couldn't tell what's
Debian and what's Mint.
--
Andreas

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<6277834c$0$22070$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc...@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:46 UTC

Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>
> apt-get install .... STICK with it.
>
> If your distro won't, find another distro.

You are too limited to give advices. My distro doesn't use it and
some other good distros don't have it too.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc...@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:51 UTC

Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>
> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.

They can be great.

> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.

Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
mastered, not used blindly.

> Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
> Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
> means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
> REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
> can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
> another distro.

It's a more open brain advice than saying apt-get is the only
package-manager to use.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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From: mo0...@posteo.de (Marco Moock)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 10:56:56 +0200
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 by: Marco Moock - Sun, 8 May 2022 08:56 UTC

Am Samstag, 07. Mai 2022, um 00:35:35 Uhr schrieb 25.BX945:

> On 5/6/22 7:04 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 23:58:13 Uhr schrieb 25.BX945:
> >
> >> There are now too many Linux developers who DON'T
> >> GET IT. We do not, MUST not, allow Linux to become
> >> like Winders.
> >
> > That is what most Linux distributions do.
> > Most of the provide snap, but don't install it by default.
>
> NEXT month they WILL.
>
> Then it will be "required".
>
> Unless there's huge push-back.

I don't think that Debian or Slackware will use snapd by default and
force people to use it.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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From: fre...@mouse-potato.com (Bud Frede)
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Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???
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 by: Bud Frede - Sun, 8 May 2022 11:22 UTC

"25.BX945" <25BZ495@nada.net> writes:

>
> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>

So you're running a PDP-11 with "olde-tyme" Unix? Or at least
"olde-tyme" Unix on SIMH?

No?

How "olde-tyme" are you? Where do you draw the line in the sand? Paper
and pencil? Abacus?

Does your house have electricity and running water? Do you use candles
for lighting?

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: 25.BX945 - Sun, 22 May 2022 03:53 UTC

On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>
> They can be great.
>
>> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>
> Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
> mastered, not used blindly.
>
>> Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
>> Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
>> means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
>> REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
>> can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
>> another distro.
>
> It's a more open brain advice than saying apt-get is the only
> package-manager to use.

Time-tested, reliable, gets it done just fine,
minimal exposure, no tricks.

I'll stick with apt-get.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: Anna - Tue, 31 May 2022 05:29 UTC

Gentoo, Slackware, Alpine Linux.

Even if they fall, BSDs will be around.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: 25.BX945 - Tue, 31 May 2022 15:17 UTC

On 5/8/22 7:22 AM, Bud Frede wrote:
> "25.BX945" <25BZ495@nada.net> writes:
>
>>
>> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>>
>
> So you're running a PDP-11 with "olde-tyme" Unix? Or at least
> "olde-tyme" Unix on SIMH?

Actually ... I've got a sim PDP-11 running
Unix ...... there are instructions on the web
if you wanna go for it :-)


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adventures-raspberry-pi3-1-running-unix-v7-emulated-pdp-11-chris-tham

> No?
>
> How "olde-tyme" are you? Where do you draw the line in the sand? Paper
> and pencil? Abacus?

Have slide-rule, and I know how to use it .....

> Does your house have electricity and running water? Do you use candles
> for lighting?

Oh no ! EVIL electricity ! How dareth man tamper
thus with the forces reserved to Zeus ! :-)

I draw the line where "transparency" starts to
disappear, These recent approaches are more like
Winders .msi and similar self-executing installer
formats where you're not sure what is really being
installed, where or how. "Open Source" should be
paired with "Open Installation" methods.

So get off the modern-idiot-friendly-quickie-method-
is-always-the-best bull ... Putin's hackers and our
own spooks think the exact same thing. Brush up on
compiling from source ... then you can see EVERYTHING.

Unix/Linux are not meant to be "Toy Winders" - they
run it ALL. That cheap router you bought from WalMart
runs on Linux, yer guarenTEED-safe cloud-storage runs
on Linux, your banks servers run on Linux, yer hospitals
mega-med-DB runs on Linux - it's everywhere, just under
the surface, and it is unsafe to go with plug-n-play
"solutions" just because even Granny can do it.

(Oh, I always pre-encrypt anything that goes to cloud
storage - the owners, not the system, are the weak link
there no matter how much they promise not to pirate and
sell yer stuff)

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: 25.BX945 - Tue, 31 May 2022 15:28 UTC

On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>
> They can be great.

Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ? :-)

"Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
to be sure what you're getting.

>> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>
> Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
> mastered, not used blindly.

Almost everybody uses it blindly. Unfortunately that may
include your doctors, yer cops, yer investment house, yer
accountants, yer bank, yer pharmacist, yer .........

Let's say that if it needs root privs to run, you are best
off compiling from source - and DO cast an eye on that
source before you push the button. That's the safe way.

>> Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
>> Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
>> means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
>> REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
>> can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
>> another distro.
>
> It's a more open brain advice than saying apt-get is the only
> package-manager to use.
>

There are times I compile instead ... however you CAN go
into an apt package and LOOK at it, even the code. They
are just one step above compile-it-yerself. Snaps/Flats/
this-weeks-wonderfix .... not so much. Closer to what
made Winders so bad.

I'm not trying to trash anybody here - I'm saying that
ESPECIALLY NOW it is best to err on the side of caution.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: 25.BX945 - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 03:20 UTC

On 5/31/22 1:29 AM, Anna wrote:
> Gentoo, Slackware, Alpine Linux.
>
> Even if they fall, BSDs will be around.

Maybe ... but MS pays their lawyers a LOT of money to
discover why they are sole owners of pretty much every
scrap of computer code ever written. They'll lay claim
to Ada Lovelace's code pretty soon :-)

Let's see ... they buy a proprietary Unix, then claim
all those "unauthorized copies/knock-offs" cease and
desist immediately and pay them 50 years worth of
back-royalties ............... and grease a few judges
and pols ...........

Do the Free/Open/Net/etc BSD teams have enough money
and lawyers to thwart such an offensive ? Doesn't
MATTER if the legal reasoning is completely sound ...
you'd need lots of lawyers at every stage of a long
drawn-out process. Miss a beat and MS wins by default.

Only hope ... find someone who still has some rights
to the old Digital Research CP/M that some guy ripped
off, lightly tweaked, and sold to some punk named
Bill Gates. Some of that code is STILL in Win-11
fer sure .... 50 YEARS WORTH OF BACK-ROYALTIES AND
ALL ILL-GOTTEN PROFITS ALONG THE WAY PLEASE !!!! :-)

Of course Gate's lawyers will claim that CP/M was full
of code that Gates wrote back in the days where the
hot young programmers had contests to see who could
write basic functions - calculating dates and the like -
in the least number of bytes/cycles .......

MS has become VERY aggressive about squeezing every
last penny out of its products lately, esp in the
last year or so. If you wanna use Office now they're
basically forcing everybody to buy the expensive
subscriptions - and they now DETECT of small biz has
been abusing it's home-n-family plan. It CAN afford
all the lawyers. Next target fer sure, Libre/Open-Office.
If it's even remotely compatible with MS products then
they're STEALING from Bill dontchaknow.

Another back-door, MS is actually, kinda sneakily,
working its way into the Linux/BSD universe by
offering various little products, which ARE pretty
good. Loads of people use Visual to develop, for
example. MS libraries will soon start to be borrowed
by many Linux programmers ... and now MS *owns* yer
asses. All your good software STOPS unless you pay MS
for using those libraries. If the libraries are used
extensively enough, MS effectively OWNS Linux/BSD -
you'd have to step back a decade or more.

This is the the Lawyer-Poisoned version of the USA
(and EU to a fair degree as well).

. . .

MIGHT be wise to start on some OS that's definitely not
MS or Linux/Unix - something that can do the job really
well but is relatively "pure", is beyond the reach of
MS lawyers, because it's "different ENOUGH". Helps if
it came out of academia instead of a for-profit.

There ARE a few possible starting points ... does MS
own any bit of the old Be-OS ? That COULD be re-done
into a fully modern 64/128-bit modern GUI OS. Who
owns AMIGIA-OS now ? I'd suggest Plan-9, but Bell
Labs (AT&T) created that and can afford the lawyers
to do what MS does if they saw a reason. Same senerio
with VMS. OS-9 was a good system that kinda reminds
of Unix (though 'better' some CoCo programmers claim)
but MicroWare still owns (and sells) that. PICK-OS ?
That was certainly "different" and Dick Pick (yes)
is long dead.

I wrote a bunch of stuff for a PICK-based DB called
"Revelation" in the late 80s - and have copied and
use a lot of their multi-value stuff in many of
my utilities even today - translated into BASIC,
FORTRAN, Pascal, 'C', Python, etc. READING PICK-like
data is super easy, WRITING is is super-easy. EDITING
it in any generic fashion is considerably trickier as
context/intent come into play. That's kinda why they
had "data dictionaries" and such. You can still buy
Revelation (non-supported though) or blow a lot more
on the heavy-duty successor MV-DB "OpenInsight". I do
like Multi-Value - a smarter way to organize most
real-world data IMHO. "Flat" DBs suck.

There were a lot of "experimental" OS's writ in the
80s/90s but most were skeletal, lacking much, or just
SO weird that nobody would ever wanna use them in
real life. Hmm .. "file-less" with no distinctions
between data/programs/storage/OS, a vaguely "AI"/brain
sort of viewpoint ... Lisp/Prolog as a full OS concept
down to the brass tacks ? There were "Lisp Machines"
way back, some with Lisp AS the OS, with the hardware
optimized to get max efficiency.

(I *hate* Lisp & Prolog ... if you see the word
"lambda" a lot and tons of braces/curlyQs ...
no, no, no .... :-O )

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<t780tp$6gg$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???
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 by: Dan Espen - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 15:34 UTC

Pastor Pentium <kodak@leica.com> writes:

> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
> deb file!
> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
> yum/apt/zypper.
> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!

Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
You sound like an idiot.

Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
I fail to see a problem.

--
Dan Espen

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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From: sc...@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Fri, 3 Jun 2022 15:20 UTC

Le 31-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
> On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>>
>> They can be great.
>
> Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ? :-)

Your insults are there only to hide your lack of arguments. If you
want to keep this way, it will be without me.

> "Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
> like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
> to be sure what you're getting.

If you take anything from unknown sources, you'll be unable to be
sure of what you get. As you can create your containers from scratch
or from minimal distros, it's way easier to know what you have in
your containers than in your VMs with a full distro.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<9a2dnUKK-cq6RQf_nZ2dnUU7-QHNnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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 by: 25.BX945 - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 03:57 UTC

On 6/3/22 11:20 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 31-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>> On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>>>
>>> They can be great.
>>
>> Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ? :-)
>
> Your insults are there only to hide your lack of arguments. If you
> want to keep this way, it will be without me.
>
>> "Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
>> like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
>> to be sure what you're getting.
>
> If you take anything from unknown sources, you'll be unable to be
> sure of what you get. As you can create your containers from scratch
> or from minimal distros, it's way easier to know what you have in
> your containers than in your VMs with a full distro.

Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.

Clue folks - do NOT take anything from "unknown sources" and
if you have the slightest skills LOOK at the code you're
getting even from "known sources" before you push any buttons.
This is the age of CyberWar - act accordingly.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<t7et75$fm5$1@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: Pancho - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 06:13 UTC

On 31/05/2022 16:28, 25.BX945 wrote:
> On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>>     Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>>
>> They can be great.
>
>   Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ?  :-)
>
>   "Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
>   like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
>   to be sure what you're getting.
>
>
>>>     Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>>
>> Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
>> mastered, not used blindly.
>
>   Almost everybody uses it blindly. Unfortunately that may
>   include your doctors, yer cops, yer investment house, yer
>   accountants, yer bank, yer pharmacist, yer .........
>

Decades ago, whilst working in an investment house it became clear that
our in-house code was so complex that we didn't understand it, even with
full source, and that it took a huge amount of investigation to
understand any, small, specific behaviour. The conclusion being that
stealing the code would be a fool's errand, as the time taken to
understand it, in order to use it correctly, would be so huge. It only
worked at all, because people had developed techniques, frameworks, to
use it, often wrongly.

So the idea that the vast majority of people don't already use software
blindly is a little laughable.

The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
a fantasy, we don't have the time. It's like looking for a needle in a
haystack.

FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much the
same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly available, in
which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is that different for
Snaps?

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<629b1ee8$0$22081$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
From: sc...@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 08:59 UTC

Le 04-06-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>
> Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
> software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.

OK, you are using insults when your brain can't compete anymore.
It's easy. It's useless. You know only apt and you can't understand
anything else, so you believed no one can understand anything beside
apt. But it's not the case.

EOT.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<629b2596$0$22286$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

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From: sc...@fiat-linux.fr (Stéphane CARPENTIER)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
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 by: Stéphane CARPENTIER - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 09:27 UTC

Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> a écrit :
>
> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
> a fantasy, we don't have the time.

For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
programs you chose to trust and install.

If you chose a distro, you can trust your distro managers for
whatever they provide. The tricky part is for what's not provided by
your distro. As you need a strong reason to, you can chose a way to
be sur only the program you wanted is installed. I mean, not a
modified program or another program freely given with it.

> It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

That's a very bad analogy. This sentence is meant for brainless
people. I still don't understand how this sentence can still be
spread.

It means that one will look at every stick in the haystack one by
one until the needle is found, which will take time. But why on
earth anyone would chose the worst way to look for a needle in a
haystack? One could use a magnet or a metal detector for exemple. If
you don't care about the stuff, one could also use fire. I'm sure,
there would be other ways in searching a little bit. But only a
brainless guy would force himself to use the worst way to accomplish
a task.

> FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much
> the same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly
> available, in which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is
> that different for Snaps?

I don't know snap, but for docker container's, you can create your
own or you can verify how they are created. In any case, if the snap
package, container and the source code are located on the same place
(ie: the gitlab/github repository of the developper), the trust you
can have in them is the same. But if the developer doesn't master
containers, the container can be poorly designed.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<t7fuii$nts$1@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: Pancho - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:43 UTC

On 04/06/2022 10:27, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> a écrit :
>>
>> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
>> a fantasy, we don't have the time.
>
> For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
> computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
> the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
> programs you chose to trust and install.
>

It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.

> If you chose a distro, you can trust your distro managers for
> whatever they provide. The tricky part is for what's not provided by
> your distro. As you need a strong reason to, you can chose a way to
> be sur only the program you wanted is installed. I mean, not a
> modified program or another program freely given with it.
> >> It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
>
> That's a very bad analogy. This sentence is meant for brainless
> people. I still don't understand how this sentence can still be
> spread.
>
> It means that one will look at every stick in the haystack one by
> one until the needle is found, which will take time. But why on
> earth anyone would chose the worst way to look for a needle in a
> haystack? One could use a magnet or a metal detector for exemple. If
> you don't care about the stuff, one could also use fire. I'm sure,
> there would be other ways in searching a little bit. But only a
> brainless guy would force himself to use the worst way to accomplish
> a task.
>

I think analogies are not meant to be stretched, particularly
long-established ones. i.e. They long ago took a life of their own,
rather than a strict factual interpretation. Maybe they didn't have
strong magnets back in the day.

Similarly, we don't really buy a pig in poke or a cat in a sack, but the
analogy is Europe wide. In England, most people wouldn't even know what
a poke was.

>> FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much
>> the same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly
>> available, in which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is
>> that different for Snaps?
>
> I don't know snap, but for docker container's, you can create your
> own or you can verify how they are created. In any case, if the snap
> package, container and the source code are located on the same place
> (ie: the gitlab/github repository of the developper), the trust you
> can have in them is the same. But if the developer doesn't master
> containers, the container can be poorly designed.
>
I meant using Docker images downloaded from Dockerhub, sometimes they
have a link to a public Dockerfile, sometimes they don't.

It's not immediately obvious to me where the Snapstore (or alternative)
offers a link to something like the Snap version of a Dockerfile. i.e.
the image build definition.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<0vadnVGEEu2yXgb_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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 by: 25.BX945 - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 20:40 UTC

On 6/4/22 4:59 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-06-2022, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
>> software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.
>
> OK, you are using insults when your brain can't compete anymore.
> It's easy. It's useless. You know only apt and you can't understand
> anything else, so you believed no one can understand anything beside
> apt. But it's not the case.

I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
its problems.

That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
more and more of those checks in the name of
"convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
unfit for any purpose.

I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
help protect what we've got.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<slrnt9niho.2k8.jj@iridium.wf32df>

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From: jj...@franjam.org.uk (Jim Jackson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: Jim Jackson - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 21:10 UTC

On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>
> I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
> from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
> I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
> help protect what we've got.

Linus didn't write a whole OS - Linux is just the kernel. He used
utilities written by others, notably the GNU utils and many others that
were suitably Open Sourced licensed.

In fact this is the whole strength of the ecosystem, and why there are
so many distributions around. And what most people don't seem to
realise, you don't need to use a distro as presented. I like the debian
packaging system - so tend to stick to "debian based" distro's. But My
desktop doesn't look anything like anyone elses! And for servers I start
with the lightest distro version, customise the init system etc,
and build up just what I need.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: 25.BX945 - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 21:21 UTC

On 6/4/22 11:43 AM, Pancho wrote:
> On 04/06/2022 10:27, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> a écrit :
>>>
>>> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
>>> a fantasy, we don't have the time.
>>
>> For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
>> computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
>> the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
>> programs you chose to trust and install.

It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
It kinda shows ....

No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.

> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.

VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
they've created than ever before :-)

In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
deliberate malice. MS is forever dealing with one particular,
and dangerous, flaw - buffer overflows. Even after all these
years they can't find everywhere in their OS where this is
a possible issue - much less in every add-on program. Their
people get PAID for this, rather a lot in some cases, and
it's beyond their ability. They're trying 'AI' proof-readers
but that still hasn't done it - and nobody totally understands
the 'AI' software now either.

(I can't blame MS for the little, vulnerable, MINIX machines
in the Intel chips though - come ON Intel ...)

Not sure what to do ... rewrite CP/M in 64/128-bit and stick
to terminal-based software ? Nothing more complicated than
Lotus-123 or WordStar ? They DID serve, of course ... but
not very pretty, not a ton of features. A "simple" underlying
OS may be the more important security feature though if
the goal is a "tough"/"reliable" foundation for govt/defense/
finance.

>> If you chose a distro, you can trust your distro managers for
>> whatever they provide. The tricky part is for what's not provided by
>> your distro. As you need a strong reason to, you can chose a way to
>> be sur only the program you wanted is installed. I mean, not a
>> modified program or another program freely given with it.
>>  >> It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
>>
>> That's a very bad analogy. This sentence is meant for brainless
>> people. I still don't understand how this sentence can still be
>> spread.
>>
>> It means that one will look at every stick in the haystack one by
>> one until the needle is found, which will take time. But why on
>> earth anyone would chose the worst way to look for a needle in a
>> haystack? One could use a magnet or a metal detector for exemple. If
>> you don't care about the stuff, one could also use fire. I'm sure,
>> there would be other ways in searching a little bit. But only a
>> brainless guy would force himself to use the worst way to accomplish
>> a task.
>>
>
> I think analogies are not meant to be stretched, particularly
> long-established ones. i.e. They long ago took a life of their own,
> rather than a strict factual interpretation. Maybe they didn't have
> strong magnets back in the day.
>
> Similarly, we don't really buy a pig in poke or a cat in a sack, but the
> analogy is Europe wide. In England, most people wouldn't even know what
> a poke was.
>
>>> FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much
>>> the same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly
>>> available, in which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is
>>> that different for Snaps?
>>
>> I don't know snap, but for docker container's, you can create your
>> own or you can verify how they are created. In any case, if the snap
>> package, container and the source code are located on the same place
>> (ie: the gitlab/github repository of the developper), the trust you
>> can have in them is the same. But if the developer doesn't master
>> containers, the container can be poorly designed.
>>
> I meant using Docker images downloaded from Dockerhub, sometimes they
> have a link to a public Dockerfile, sometimes they don't.
>
> It's not immediately obvious to me where the Snapstore (or alternative)
> offers a link to something like the Snap version of a Dockerfile. i.e.
> the image build definition.

"Opacity" ... not good .....

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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 by: 25.BX945 - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 23:49 UTC

On 6/4/22 5:10 PM, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
>> from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
>> I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
>> help protect what we've got.
>
> Linus didn't write a whole OS - Linux is just the kernel. He used
> utilities written by others, notably the GNU utils and many others that
> were suitably Open Sourced licensed.

We could argue that with no kernel you have no OS :-)

> In fact this is the whole strength of the ecosystem, and why there are
> so many distributions around. And what most people don't seem to
> realise, you don't need to use a distro as presented. I like the debian
> packaging system - so tend to stick to "debian based" distro's. But My
> desktop doesn't look anything like anyone elses! And for servers I start
> with the lightest distro version, customise the init system etc,
> and build up just what I need.

Similar to what I usually do. Start ultra-light and add
just what's needed. Less "junk" means fewer issues down
the road. Sounds like you may go even further than I
however ...

Which brings me to Ubuntu "Server" ... seems I always
spend hours DE-buntuing the installs, making them a
lot more like Deb, without the Canonical "improvements".
Think I'll just stick with a pure vanilla light Deb from
now on and save myself all the trouble. I've got a mail
server to migrate in a few weeks, that's how I'll go.

Now for a general-purpose user box you can go a lot "fatter".
I still like Deb-LXDE but MX is pretty good too.

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 11:39:47 +0100
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Sun, 5 Jun 2022 10:39 UTC

On 04/06/2022 21:40, 25.BX945 wrote:
> I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
>   of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
>   be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
>   its problems.
>

Well there are two responses that spring to mind.

1/. Winders is there to make money, that biases it in favour of
chromeware = shiny shit that is actually pointless.
2/. Winders is not open source, so mistakes cant be fixed easily.

>   That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
>   nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
>   protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
>   has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
>   more and more of those checks in the name of
>   "convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
>   unfit for any purpose.
>
All OSes become trashy after a few thousand indifferent coders have
vented their egos on them

>   I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
>   from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
>   I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
>   help protect what we've got.

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Sun, 5 Jun 2022 19:40 UTC

On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:

> It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
> hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
> would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
> It kinda shows ....

I've always said that Windows' usability (such as it is) peaked
somewhere between 2k and XP, and has been going downhill ever since.
You have one possible explanation, although I've always felt that
people's obsession with shiny things is what drives the decline.
(When I have to use Windows, it's a copy of XP under VirtualBox.)

> No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
> system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
> over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
> there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
> his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
> do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
> bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
> would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
> to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
> was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
> birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.

Still, Lord Bill has made a _lot_ of money selling birthday-party
ponies with pink saddles. In a society where money is the only
morality, that makes Microsoft the very model of success.

>> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
>> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.
>
> VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
> systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
> they've created than ever before :-)
>
> In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
> it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
> code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
> and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
> deliberate malice.

Complexity is a weapon. This has been well understood by politicians
and lawyers since long before Microsoft existed.

The KISS principle is a countermeasure (which is why it's so reviled).

> "Opacity" ... not good .....

For whom?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

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 by: 25.BX945 - Mon, 6 Jun 2022 00:14 UTC

On 6/5/22 3:40 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
>> hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
>> would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
>> It kinda shows ....
>
> I've always said that Windows' usability (such as it is) peaked
> somewhere between 2k and XP, and has been going downhill ever since.
> You have one possible explanation, although I've always felt that
> people's obsession with shiny things is what drives the decline.
> (When I have to use Windows, it's a copy of XP under VirtualBox.)

"Eye candy" DOES play a role ... geez, look how busy KDE
has become ! Winder, being commercial, always has to out-do
the look with every iteration (and, alas, HIDE the real
functional nuts and bolts stuff deeper and deeper - 11 is even
worse than 10 ; by 12 or 13 bet they'll even remove regedit).

But consider ... by around the time of XP, the push for a
zillion bells and whistles and eye-candy was really ramping
up AT THE SAME TIME the product had become far too complex for
any one (maybe even a group of ones) to actually understand.
Ergo it's been downhill from there. For every "feature" they
add, they introduce two, or ten, deadly flaws/vulnerabilities.

I too have an XP VM "just in case" .. and a very old box in the
corner under some stuff with XP and a chipset that'll still run
8/16-bit software. It even has the two sizes of floppy drives
and a PPort ZIP drive ! I also have VMs of Win2k, 98se, 95, 3.11
and even Win-1 and Win-2 (wow they were horrible !) and CP/M-86.
Gotta have fun sometimes - the old IBM/MS FORTRAN, C and Pascal
compilers, Aztec-C for CP/M :-)

>> No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
>> system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
>> over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
>> there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
>> his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
>> do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
>> bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
>> would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
>> to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
>> was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
>> birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.
>
> Still, Lord Bill has made a _lot_ of money selling birthday-party
> ponies with pink saddles. In a society where money is the only
> morality, that makes Microsoft the very model of success.

Well ... to a POINT it's been "What People Want". Now though
the prices have gone up and MS has become insanely obsessed
with every last penny, mandatory accounts, subscriptions and
de-facto built-in spyware (To Improve The User Experience).
The model is shifting back to client/server because MS can
make more money, and have more control/access, that way.

>>> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
>>> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.
>>
>> VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
>> systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
>> they've created than ever before :-)
>>
>> In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
>> it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
>> code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
>> and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
>> deliberate malice.
>
> Complexity is a weapon. This has been well understood by politicians
> and lawyers since long before Microsoft existed.

"Lies, damned lies ... and statistics." .... make the manure pile
high enough and nobody can see over the top.

> The KISS principle is a countermeasure (which is why it's so reviled).
>
>> "Opacity" ... not good .....
>
> For whom?

Anyone BUT the Machiavellian segment ...

Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

<MPednfe6xezk0AD_nZ2dnUU7-cfNnZ2d@earthlink.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7444&group=comp.os.linux.misc#7444

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Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak
mania???
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: 25BZ...@nada.net (25.BX945)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 20:42:32 -0400
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 by: 25.BX945 - Mon, 6 Jun 2022 00:42 UTC

On 6/5/22 6:39 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/06/2022 21:40, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
>>    of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
>>    be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
>>    its problems.
>>
>
> Well there are two responses that spring to mind.
>
> 1/. Winders is there to make money, that biases it in favour of
> chromeware = shiny shit that is actually pointless.

"What do you do when they let you go home,
and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
is too soft ? ..." :-)

> 2/. Winders is not open source, so mistakes cant be fixed easily.

CAN mean that, fewer eyes on the problems. The flip is
usually more sophisticated methods for fixing the problems.
The flip on that, more pointy-haired bosses who don't want
to even HEAR about "problems".

>>    That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
>>    nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
>>    protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
>>    has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
>>    more and more of those checks in the name of
>>    "convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
>>    unfit for any purpose.
>>
> All OSes become trashy after a few thousand indifferent coders have
> vented their egos on them

Trouble is that they're too hard to write these days,
lots - especially "net" stuff - is expected and it
BETTER be plug-n-play with that 3D printer you picked
up in a Ulaanbaatar pawn shop .......

I've always wondered if BeOS could be punched up into
something modern and useful. Alas it was bought by Palm,
which was bought by HP, who sold it to TCC-China ...
so likely there's somebody who can lay claim to it. The
other decent "unix-ISH" one is OS-9, but that's still
actively commercial. CoCo people used to claim OS-9
was even "better" under the hood than Unix.

>>    I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
>>    from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
>>    I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
>>    help protect what we've got.

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