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computers / comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action / Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

SubjectAuthor
* Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
+- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
+- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainWerner P.
+* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
|`* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
| `- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
+* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainGeoff May
|`* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJustisaur
| `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
|  +- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJustisaur
|  `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
|   +* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
|   |`- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
|   `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
|    `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
|     `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
|      `- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
`* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
 `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
  `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
   `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
    `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
     `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
      `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainJAB
       `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler
        `* Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainSpalls Hurgenson
         `- Re: Video Games Are To Blame... AgainDimensional Traveler

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Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 20:28:07 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Wed, 18 May 2022 00:28 UTC

America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.

Yup, that old chestnut is being dragged out again*. I mean, given the
source I shouldn't be surprised, but still. It's such a tired and
frequently disproven theory, not least of which is that all the rest
of the world is playing the same games as Americans, and yet aren't
suffering the same effects. Although it is currently Fox pushing this
theory, it isn't strictly right-wing nonsense; it's trotted out by
liberals too (albeit not quite as often, as American conservatives
seemingly fetishize gun ownership and need a scapegoat anytime
anything suggests the there being more guns than people in America is
anything but admirable). But even outside that beleagured nation,
video games are often cited for acts of extreme violence.

Still, I don't really want to get into USian politics (that's a mess I
suspect even most Americans wish they could escape). I just wish the
damn "it's all video games' fault" excuse - regardless of who uses it
or in which country - finally dies. It's so pointlessly stupid, like
insisting that the sun is made of oatmeal, and yet it keeps being
dredged up whenever some asshole with a grievance and access to a
deadly weapon does something stupid. It says more about the people
making the excuse than anything - that they're out of touch, or are
uneducated, or simply hypocritical - and it annoys me to hear it again
and again.

I know, I'm just shouting into the wind here... but still, I wish
they'd find some other excuse; that these murders are caused by
global warming, or too much pollution in the waters, or a lack of
adequate mental health care... whatever. Just leave video games out of
it. I mean, really, what have they done to you that they deserve such
abuse?

--------------------------
* https://gamerant.com/fox-news-violent-video-games-buffalo-shooting/

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 17:42:23 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Wed, 18 May 2022 00:42 UTC

On 5/17/2022 5:28 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> I know, I'm just shouting into the wind here... but still, I wish
> they'd find some other excuse; that these murders are caused by
> global warming, or too much pollution in the waters, or a lack of
> adequate mental health care... whatever. Just leave video games out of
> it. I mean, really, what have they done to you that they deserve such
> abuse?
>
I believe the answer to that question is in the Elden Ring thread.... :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: wer...@gmx.at (Werner P.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:09:47 +0200
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 by: Werner P. - Wed, 18 May 2022 07:09 UTC

Am 18.05.22 um 02:28 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> I know, I'm just shouting into the wind here... but still, I wish
> they'd find some other excuse; that these murders are caused by
> global warming, or too much pollution in the waters, or a lack of
> adequate mental health care... whatever. Just leave video games out of
> it. I mean, really, what have they done to you that they deserve such
> abuse?
>
Well the problem is a combination of things, as an outsider, but one of
the cornerstones, not the only problem, in the US seems to be the easy
access to weapons. Other cornerstones are and I think this is the
biggest problem the social inequality. People become aggressive once
they stand against the wall, thats how things work. Have enough people
fight day 2 day for their income while others celebrate openly how they
made millions of money by ripping off the poor and sucking it out of
people who are slowly descending into poverty is the next corner stone
of radicalisation.
The third is simply constant stress people are in.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:24:48 +0100
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 by: JAB - Wed, 18 May 2022 08:24 UTC

On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
> by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
> yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
> Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
> Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
> like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.
>
> Yup, that old chestnut is being dragged out again*. I mean, given the
> source I shouldn't be surprised, but still. It's such a tired and
> frequently disproven theory, not least of which is that all the rest
> of the world is playing the same games as Americans, and yet aren't
> suffering the same effects. Although it is currently Fox pushing this
> theory, it isn't strictly right-wing nonsense; it's trotted out by
> liberals too (albeit not quite as often, as American conservatives
> seemingly fetishize gun ownership and need a scapegoat anytime
> anything suggests the there being more guns than people in America is
> anything but admirable). But even outside that beleagured nation,
> video games are often cited for acts of extreme violence.
>
> Still, I don't really want to get into USian politics (that's a mess I
> suspect even most Americans wish they could escape). I just wish the
> damn "it's all video games' fault" excuse - regardless of who uses it
> or in which country - finally dies. It's so pointlessly stupid, like
> insisting that the sun is made of oatmeal, and yet it keeps being
> dredged up whenever some asshole with a grievance and access to a
> deadly weapon does something stupid. It says more about the people
> making the excuse than anything - that they're out of touch, or are
> uneducated, or simply hypocritical - and it annoys me to hear it again
> and again.
>
> I know, I'm just shouting into the wind here... but still, I wish
> they'd find some other excuse; that these murders are caused by
> global warming, or too much pollution in the waters, or a lack of
> adequate mental health care... whatever. Just leave video games out of
> it. I mean, really, what have they done to you that they deserve such
> abuse?
>

I won't get into the politics but yeh people do like their scapegoats
and 'easy' solutions, at least it's not D&D any more.

I've yet to see any credible studies that link violent video games to
actual violence beyond one that did show some link. The problem was it
lasted something like twenty minutes after they finished playing.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: GeoffMay...@nospam.com (Geoff May)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 17:56:44 +0100
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 by: Geoff May - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:56 UTC

On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> [snipped] I just wish the
> damn "it's all video games' fault" excuse - regardless of who uses it
> or in which country - finally dies. [snipped]
Every technological advance gets painted with the same brush by the same
arseholes who are incapable of original thought. I know these people are
arseholes because the only thing that comes out of them is shit but I do
wish they would not try spreading it all over the place.

When I was younger, TV would cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.

When I got a little older, video games would cause all children to be
fat and unhealthy.

When I got old enough to consider having kids, computer games would
cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.

I'm now old enough to realise that I made a good decision in not having
children but now the problem is that smart phones will cause all
children to be fat and unhealthy.

And, in all above instances, there were the dark mumblings about adverse
influences.

The main problems I have with these irrational outbursts is not their
inaccuracy but that these people making these statements appear to think
that I and everyone else using this technology should care about someone
else's children. Isn't that the parents' job?

Cheers

Geoff

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Wed, 18 May 2022 18:35 UTC

On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:24:48 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>I won't get into the politics but yeh people do like their scapegoats
>and 'easy' solutions, at least it's not D&D any more.

Actually, it still is, although its not anywhere near as common. I
STILL occassionally hear parents worry about the Satanic (or otherwise
unhealthy) influences of the game.

>I've yet to see any credible studies that link violent video games to
>actual violence beyond one that did show some link. The problem was it
>lasted something like twenty minutes after they finished playing.

Its the adrenalin. Video games can get you pumped up and excited, and
until you calm down, those hormones can affect your decision-making
ability. However, the effect isn't any more telling from video-games
than it is from watching a movie or playing an intense game of {insert
sports game here}.

More studies have shown that there is no correlation between
video-game play and violence (some suggest there might be a positive
benefit with the games acting as a catharsis, but the evidence is
quite shaky). The most important fact is that - even as our video
games have gotten more and more graphically violent - actual criminal
violence has decreased dramatically (by more than half in the last 30
years). Even in America - where a tiny group of misguided individuals
daily perform their attrocities on a daily schedule - violent crime is
incredibly low and won't affect most people's lives.

Which is why blaming games just strikes me as so stupid; it's like
people still blaming D&D, or rock & roll, or TV, or comic books, or
dancing, or macaroni hats. It's so blatantly ridiculous that its
almost painful to hear it get dredged up again and again. If Americans
want to scapegoat something for their problems, well... it's not the
best solution, but it's understandable. It's human; every person of
every nation does something similar. Just don't use such a moronic,
easily disproven, and out-of-touch excuse as blaming video games. Is
that too much to ask? ;-)

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
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 by: JAB - Thu, 19 May 2022 08:08 UTC

On 18/05/2022 19:35, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 09:24:48 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>> I won't get into the politics but yeh people do like their scapegoats
>> and 'easy' solutions, at least it's not D&D any more.
>
> Actually, it still is, although its not anywhere near as common. I
> STILL occassionally hear parents worry about the Satanic (or otherwise
> unhealthy) influences of the game.
>

I have read some RPG horror stories where the issue came up. My
favourite one was the player who insisted that only one true god can
exist in the world and magic isn't allowed.

Saying that I do have a tiny little bit of sympathy as I've found for a
lot of people they just don't get what an RPG involves.

>> I've yet to see any credible studies that link violent video games to
>> actual violence beyond one that did show some link. The problem was it
>> lasted something like twenty minutes after they finished playing.
>
> Its the adrenalin. Video games can get you pumped up and excited, and
> until you calm down, those hormones can affect your decision-making
> ability. However, the effect isn't any more telling from video-games
> than it is from watching a movie or playing an intense game of {insert
> sports game here}.
>
> More studies have shown that there is no correlation between
> video-game play and violence (some suggest there might be a positive
> benefit with the games acting as a catharsis, but the evidence is
> quite shaky). The most important fact is that - even as our video
> games have gotten more and more graphically violent - actual criminal
> violence has decreased dramatically (by more than half in the last 30
> years). Even in America - where a tiny group of misguided individuals
> daily perform their attrocities on a daily schedule - violent crime is
> incredibly low and won't affect most people's lives.
> > Which is why blaming games just strikes me as so stupid; it's like
> people still blaming D&D, or rock & roll, or TV, or comic books, or
> dancing, or macaroni hats. It's so blatantly ridiculous that its
> almost painful to hear it get dredged up again and again. If Americans
> want to scapegoat something for their problems, well... it's not the
> best solution, but it's understandable. It's human; every person of
> every nation does something similar. Just don't use such a moronic,
> easily disproven, and out-of-touch excuse as blaming video games. Is
> that too much to ask? ;-)
>

I think there is a level of stupidity but also ignorance of what is in
these games besides something that someone said on Facewank. I'd also
add that I think it's quite patronising as there's this assumption that
children are so braindead that they're incapable of realising that they
are not playing a game. I played cops and robbers when I was younger but
it doesn't mean I now take a sawn-off into banks and shout nobody move,
this is a robbery.

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
From: justis...@gmail.com (Justisaur)
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 by: Justisaur - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:03 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:56:46 AM UTC-7, Geoff May wrote:
> On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> > [snipped] I just wish the
> > damn "it's all video games' fault" excuse - regardless of who uses it
> > or in which country - finally dies. [snipped]
> Every technological advance gets painted with the same brush by the same
> arseholes who are incapable of original thought. I know these people are
> arseholes because the only thing that comes out of them is shit but I do
> wish they would not try spreading it all over the place.
>
> When I was younger, TV would cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.
>
> When I got a little older, video games would cause all children to be
> fat and unhealthy.
>
> When I got old enough to consider having kids, computer games would
> cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.
>
> I'm now old enough to realise that I made a good decision in not having
> children but now the problem is that smart phones will cause all
> children to be fat and unhealthy.
>
> And, in all above instances, there were the dark mumblings about adverse
> influences.
>
> The main problems I have with these irrational outbursts is not their
> inaccuracy but that these people making these statements appear to think
> that I and everyone else using this technology should care about someone
> else's children. Isn't that the parents' job?
>

At least there's a couple positive studies.

https://www.studyfinds.org/video-games-child-intelligence/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games/surgeons-who-play-video-games-more-skilled-study-idUSN2J30397820070219

The short - good for fine motor skills and IQ.

- Justisaur

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 07:42:31 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 19 May 2022 14:42 UTC

On 5/19/2022 6:03 AM, Justisaur wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 9:56:46 AM UTC-7, Geoff May wrote:
>> On 18/05/2022 01:28, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> [snipped] I just wish the
>>> damn "it's all video games' fault" excuse - regardless of who uses it
>>> or in which country - finally dies. [snipped]
>> Every technological advance gets painted with the same brush by the same
>> arseholes who are incapable of original thought. I know these people are
>> arseholes because the only thing that comes out of them is shit but I do
>> wish they would not try spreading it all over the place.
>>
>> When I was younger, TV would cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.
>>
>> When I got a little older, video games would cause all children to be
>> fat and unhealthy.
>>
>> When I got old enough to consider having kids, computer games would
>> cause all children to be fat and unhealthy.
>>
>> I'm now old enough to realise that I made a good decision in not having
>> children but now the problem is that smart phones will cause all
>> children to be fat and unhealthy.
>>
>> And, in all above instances, there were the dark mumblings about adverse
>> influences.
>>
>> The main problems I have with these irrational outbursts is not their
>> inaccuracy but that these people making these statements appear to think
>> that I and everyone else using this technology should care about someone
>> else's children. Isn't that the parents' job?
>>
>
> At least there's a couple positive studies.
>
> https://www.studyfinds.org/video-games-child-intelligence/
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-surgery-games/surgeons-who-play-video-games-more-skilled-study-idUSN2J30397820070219
>
> The short - good for fine motor skills and IQ.
>
And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
together. Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
local community college asked some of the college students who played
D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids. :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
From: justis...@gmail.com (Justisaur)
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 by: Justisaur - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:54 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 7:42:12 AM UTC-7, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
> together. Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
> local community college asked some of the college students who played
> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids. :D

It sure improved my math skills (or was that Champions?!). I hate to think
what a hermit I'd be without D&D. I sure turned into one during the lockdowns. :/

- Justisaur

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:27 +0100
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 by: JAB - Sun, 22 May 2022 10:20 UTC

On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
> local community college asked some of the college students who played
> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>

I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.

The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.

The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
with an entirely different group of friends.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 09:16:17 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:16 UTC

On 5/22/2022 3:20 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
>> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
>> local community college asked some of the college students who played
>> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>>
>
> I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
> was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
> another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
> It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
> group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
> especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.
>
> The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
> because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
> players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
> really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
> in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.
>
> The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
> with an entirely different group of friends.

I get that. In the group I did most of my gaming with there was one who
thought his job as GM was to kill the player characters. He was also
the one who complained the most when his latest "invincible" character
got taken down a peg by reality. (One example of that, he once made a
hound master character in a GURPS game. Then got pissed off when a NPC
hit one of his dogs the first time he sent them into battle because "no
one can hit a charging dog!" I was the GM in that game and the NPC
rolled effectively a critical hit, which he saw me roll.)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 12:19:47 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:19 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:27 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
>> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
>> local community college asked some of the college students who played
>> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D

>I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
>was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
>another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
>It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
>group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
>especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.

>The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
>because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
>players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
>really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
>in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.

>The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
>with an entirely different group of friends.

If there is, arguably, a 'wrong way' to play an pen-n-paper RPG, I
think you just described it. ;-)

Still, its not /that/ uncommon to see games like this, though usually
this happens amongst new or very young players. The latter of course
have the excuse of a lack of maturity (not to mention an overdose of
hormones) that leads them towards rebelliousness and experimentation.
Many new players also have a hard time comprehending a 'game' where
the outcome isn't for one person to win and all the others to lose.

Usually such behavior can be worked around if there are enough
conscientious players in the group (and especially the GM) who can
provide a good example to the rest; usually there's just one really
disruptive player, and the others are just following his (or her)
example. You can work these 'bad apples' back into the campaign (often
their behavior is a result of low self-esteem, the idea that nobody
would listen to their ideas if they weren't outrageous and disruptive,
but - especially for younger players and people who use the game
primarily as entertainment and not as a form of social rehabilitation
- it's often more trouble than it is worth.

The best option is, as you did, often to just walk away. Fortunately
(at least in my experience) there are more people interested in
fostering a good time for all than being jerks... it's just that the
jerks are so LOUD its often hard to remember that.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 09:48:43 +0100
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 by: JAB - Mon, 23 May 2022 08:48 UTC

On 22/05/2022 17:16, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 3:20 AM, JAB wrote:
>> On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and
>>> working together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street
>>> from the local community college asked some of the college students
>>> who played D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>>>
>>
>> I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
>> was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
>> another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you
>> wanted. It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and
>> most of the group approached that as a how can I kill the players
>> scenario especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.
>>
>> The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
>> because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the
>> various players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular
>> who really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top
>> dog' in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.
>>
>> The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
>> with an entirely different group of friends.
>
> I get that.  In the group I did most of my gaming with there was one who
> thought his job as GM was to kill the player characters.  He was also
> the one who complained the most when his latest "invincible" character
> got taken down a peg by reality.  (One example of that, he once made a
> hound master character in a GURPS game.  Then got pissed off when a NPC
> hit one of his dogs the first time he sent them into battle because "no
> one can hit a charging dog!"  I was the GM in that game and the NPC
> rolled effectively a critical hit, which he saw me roll.)
>

We once had a DM who later admitted that they had a kill quota for
sessions and he'd actively try to meet it. We also had one introduced a
type of death character which would random appear attack a member of the
party, quite possible killing them, and then disappear. Now you might
think that an interesting plot hook, oh no that was just something that
they added for their 'fun'.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6fif9$t8r$1@dont-email.me>

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 10:00:24 +0100
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 by: JAB - Mon, 23 May 2022 09:00 UTC

On 22/05/2022 17:19, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:27 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
>>> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
>>> local community college asked some of the college students who played
>>> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>
>> I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
>> was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
>> another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
>> It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
>> group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
>> especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.
>
>> The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
>> because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
>> players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
>> really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
>> in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.
>
>> The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
>> with an entirely different group of friends.
>
> If there is, arguably, a 'wrong way' to play an pen-n-paper RPG, I
> think you just described it. ;-)
>
> Still, its not /that/ uncommon to see games like this, though usually
> this happens amongst new or very young players. The latter of course
> have the excuse of a lack of maturity (not to mention an overdose of
> hormones) that leads them towards rebelliousness and experimentation.
> Many new players also have a hard time comprehending a 'game' where
> the outcome isn't for one person to win and all the others to lose.
>
> Usually such behavior can be worked around if there are enough
> conscientious players in the group (and especially the GM) who can
> provide a good example to the rest; usually there's just one really
> disruptive player, and the others are just following his (or her)
> example. You can work these 'bad apples' back into the campaign (often
> their behavior is a result of low self-esteem, the idea that nobody
> would listen to their ideas if they weren't outrageous and disruptive,
> but - especially for younger players and people who use the game
> primarily as entertainment and not as a form of social rehabilitation
> - it's often more trouble than it is worth.
>
> The best option is, as you did, often to just walk away. Fortunately
> (at least in my experience) there are more people interested in
> fostering a good time for all than being jerks... it's just that the
> jerks are so LOUD its often hard to remember that.
>

Whenever I've tried to explain what a TT RPG is too my friends they two
biggest hurdles I see are there is no winning, or indeed losing, in the
same way there is with a traditional game. The second is that you're
trying to play a role and sometimes that means you will do things that
you personally know aren't a good idea.

Admittedly for the latter it's perfectly possible to enjoy the game
playing an 'extension' of yourself but I'm the type of player who really
likes to throw themselves into the character which is one reason I
choose one not only that I'd like to play but I think I can play.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<s1en8hd6apn0hmd5skji2pguarf39dqj5d@4ax.com>

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 12:46:11 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Mon, 23 May 2022 16:46 UTC

On Mon, 23 May 2022 10:00:24 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 22/05/2022 17:19, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:27 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
>>>> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
>>>> local community college asked some of the college students who played
>>>> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>>
>>> I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
>>> was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
>>> another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
>>> It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
>>> group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
>>> especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.
>>
>>> The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
>>> because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
>>> players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
>>> really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
>>> in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.
>>
>>> The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
>>> with an entirely different group of friends.
>>
>> If there is, arguably, a 'wrong way' to play an pen-n-paper RPG, I
>> think you just described it. ;-)
>>
>> Still, its not /that/ uncommon to see games like this, though usually
>> this happens amongst new or very young players. The latter of course
>> have the excuse of a lack of maturity (not to mention an overdose of
>> hormones) that leads them towards rebelliousness and experimentation.
>> Many new players also have a hard time comprehending a 'game' where
>> the outcome isn't for one person to win and all the others to lose.
>>
>> Usually such behavior can be worked around if there are enough
>> conscientious players in the group (and especially the GM) who can
>> provide a good example to the rest; usually there's just one really
>> disruptive player, and the others are just following his (or her)
>> example. You can work these 'bad apples' back into the campaign (often
>> their behavior is a result of low self-esteem, the idea that nobody
>> would listen to their ideas if they weren't outrageous and disruptive,
>> but - especially for younger players and people who use the game
>> primarily as entertainment and not as a form of social rehabilitation
>> - it's often more trouble than it is worth.
>>
>> The best option is, as you did, often to just walk away. Fortunately
>> (at least in my experience) there are more people interested in
>> fostering a good time for all than being jerks... it's just that the
>> jerks are so LOUD its often hard to remember that.

>Whenever I've tried to explain what a TT RPG is too my friends they two
>biggest hurdles I see are there is no winning, or indeed losing, in the
>same way there is with a traditional game. The second is that you're
>trying to play a role and sometimes that means you will do things that
>you personally know aren't a good idea.

>Admittedly for the latter it's perfectly possible to enjoy the game
>playing an 'extension' of yourself but I'm the type of player who really
>likes to throw themselves into the character which is one reason I
>choose one not only that I'd like to play but I think I can play.

Those are always fun, although - at least in my case - it's always led
to some inconsistencies in behavior, as I bobble between 'what would
/I/ do' and 'what would /PC/ do' modes, often not noticing the switch.
But I've thrown many a GM for a loop by doing something that I - the
player - know is a self-destructive act just because the character
doesn't know it, or has an entirely different opinion on the matter.
;-)

RPG is just 'playing pretend'... with the rules in place to keep any
one player from dominating the experience, and the dice to add some
necessary chaos. At least in my opinion, treating an RPG as a game -
something that can be 'won' or with mechanics that can be manipulated
to your benefit - defeats the whole purpose of the experience. But
there are some people who like that sort of thing too, so the tricky
part is finding a group that agrees with your philosophy more than
theirs ;-)

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6i093$t9t$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7362&group=comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action#7362

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 08:08:17 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: JAB - Tue, 24 May 2022 07:08 UTC

On 23/05/2022 17:46, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 10:00:24 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/05/2022 17:19, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:27 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/05/2022 15:42, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>> And studies regarding D&D showed it improved social skills and working
>>>>> together.  Back In The Day a grade school across the street from the
>>>>> local community college asked some of the college students who played
>>>>> D&D to run/oversee D&D games for their kids.  :D
>>>
>>>> I can see that but I did once play in an AD&D group where cooperation
>>>> was considered a dirty word and it was considered quite ok to attack
>>>> another character if they didn't give you an item of theirs you wanted.
>>>> It also didn't help that we took turns in being the DM and most of the
>>>> group approached that as a how can I kill the players scenario
>>>> especially if they'd been 'wronged' in a previous session.
>>>
>>>> The final straw that really killed the group (for me anyway) was that
>>>> because of our age a lot of the social pecking order between the various
>>>> players seeped into the group. We had one player in particular who
>>>> really just couldn't get his head around the idea that being 'top dog'
>>>> in real life doesn't mean that happens at the table.
>>>
>>>> The positive was that it gave me the incentive to join another group
>>>> with an entirely different group of friends.
>>>
>>> If there is, arguably, a 'wrong way' to play an pen-n-paper RPG, I
>>> think you just described it. ;-)
>>>
>>> Still, its not /that/ uncommon to see games like this, though usually
>>> this happens amongst new or very young players. The latter of course
>>> have the excuse of a lack of maturity (not to mention an overdose of
>>> hormones) that leads them towards rebelliousness and experimentation.
>>> Many new players also have a hard time comprehending a 'game' where
>>> the outcome isn't for one person to win and all the others to lose.
>>>
>>> Usually such behavior can be worked around if there are enough
>>> conscientious players in the group (and especially the GM) who can
>>> provide a good example to the rest; usually there's just one really
>>> disruptive player, and the others are just following his (or her)
>>> example. You can work these 'bad apples' back into the campaign (often
>>> their behavior is a result of low self-esteem, the idea that nobody
>>> would listen to their ideas if they weren't outrageous and disruptive,
>>> but - especially for younger players and people who use the game
>>> primarily as entertainment and not as a form of social rehabilitation
>>> - it's often more trouble than it is worth.
>>>
>>> The best option is, as you did, often to just walk away. Fortunately
>>> (at least in my experience) there are more people interested in
>>> fostering a good time for all than being jerks... it's just that the
>>> jerks are so LOUD its often hard to remember that.
>
>> Whenever I've tried to explain what a TT RPG is too my friends they two
>> biggest hurdles I see are there is no winning, or indeed losing, in the
>> same way there is with a traditional game. The second is that you're
>> trying to play a role and sometimes that means you will do things that
>> you personally know aren't a good idea.
>
>> Admittedly for the latter it's perfectly possible to enjoy the game
>> playing an 'extension' of yourself but I'm the type of player who really
>> likes to throw themselves into the character which is one reason I
>> choose one not only that I'd like to play but I think I can play.
>
> Those are always fun, although - at least in my case - it's always led
> to some inconsistencies in behavior, as I bobble between 'what would
> /I/ do' and 'what would /PC/ do' modes, often not noticing the switch.
> But I've thrown many a GM for a loop by doing something that I - the
> player - know is a self-destructive act just because the character
> doesn't know it, or has an entirely different opinion on the matter.
> ;-)
>

I do try and stick to the what would my character do mode but there is a
fine line between doing that and being disruptive to the group. To put
it simply I won't play the that's what my character would do card if the
action would be overly detrimental.

> RPG is just 'playing pretend'... with the rules in place to keep any
> one player from dominating the experience, and the dice to add some
> necessary chaos. At least in my opinion, treating an RPG as a game -
> something that can be 'won' or with mechanics that can be manipulated
> to your benefit - defeats the whole purpose of the experience. But
> there are some people who like that sort of thing too, so the tricky
> part is finding a group that agrees with your philosophy more than
> theirs ;-)
>

I tend to agree, I can see the enjoyment of playing a character that is
an extension of yourself but if you move to the idea that your character
is a bunch of stats just to be used then, as you say what's the point.
There's loads of games that really are bettered suited to that type of
play-style.

Also, as you said, the trick is that realistically a group is going to
have a spectrum of play-styles and it's up to the group to get them to
work together but I think there's some where you just can't do that.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<h7jt8hdgi65hekqqo7oabicdmn7l9ndmon@4ax.com>

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 20:49:05 -0400
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Thu, 26 May 2022 00:49 UTC

On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:28:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
>by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
>yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
>Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
>Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
>like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.

Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
have to do with it? It's the rap music!"

Jesus-fucking-Christ, America, get your head out of your ass already.
For a country that coined the phrase, "think of the children!" you
sure are willing to sacrifice your kids on the altars of Colt and
Remington.

-------------------
* https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6mrlu$1jf$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 20:21:16 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 26 May 2022 03:21 UTC

On 5/25/2022 5:49 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:28:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
>> by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
>> yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
>> Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
>> Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
>> like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.
>
> Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
> this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
> too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
> completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
> have to do with it? It's the rap music!"
>
> Jesus-fucking-Christ, America, get your head out of your ass already.
> For a country that coined the phrase, "think of the children!" you
> sure are willing to sacrifice your kids on the altars of Colt and
> Remington.
>
> -------------------
> *
> https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html
>
Oh, that's nothing. The Governor of Texas, who slashed some 200 million
from the state agency in charge of mental health care in the state,
blamed it on insufficient care for the mentally ill.

O_o

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6ndnu$1je$1@dont-email.me>

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Thu, 26 May 2022 09:28:43 +0100
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 by: JAB - Thu, 26 May 2022 08:28 UTC

On 26/05/2022 04:21, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 5/25/2022 5:49 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:28:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
>> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
>>> by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
>>> yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
>>> Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
>>> Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
>>> like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.
>>
>> Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
>> this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
>> too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
>> completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
>> have to do with it? It's the rap music!"
>>
>> Jesus-fucking-Christ, America, get your head out of your ass already.
>> For a country that coined the phrase, "think of the children!" you
>> sure are willing to sacrifice your kids on the altars of Colt and
>> Remington.
>>
>> -------------------
>> *
>> https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html
>>
>>
> Oh, that's nothing.  The Governor of Texas, who slashed some 200 million
> from the state agency in charge of mental health care in the state,
> blamed it on insufficient care for the mentally ill.
>
> O_o
>

It just amazes me how many people there are in the US that regardless of
the problems they have with guns still consider almost any type of
control as an infringement of their civil liberties.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6o4n4$5fo$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Thu, 26 May 2022 08:01:41 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 26 May 2022 15:01 UTC

On 5/26/2022 1:28 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 26/05/2022 04:21, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 5/25/2022 5:49 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 20:28:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
>>> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> America has a gun problem. No surprise; there's not a week that goes
>>>> by now - often not even a day - that there isn't a report of
>>>> yet-another mass shooting in that country. It's a tragedy that
>>>> Americans seem reluctant to face up to, much less do anything about.
>>>> Instead, it's the usual nonsense gets trotted out again and again...
>>>> like that all these mass shootings are because of violent video games.
>>>
>>> Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
>>> this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
>>> too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
>>> completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
>>> have to do with it? It's the rap music!"
>>>
>>> Jesus-fucking-Christ, America, get your head out of your ass already.
>>> For a country that coined the phrase, "think of the children!" you
>>> sure are willing to sacrifice your kids on the altars of Colt and
>>> Remington.
>>>
>>> -------------------
>>> *
>>> https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html
>>>
>>>
>> Oh, that's nothing.  The Governor of Texas, who slashed some 200
>> million from the state agency in charge of mental health care in the
>> state, blamed it on insufficient care for the mentally ill.
>>
>> O_o
>>
>
> It just amazes me how many people there are in the US that regardless of
> the problems they have with guns still consider almost any type of
> control as an infringement of their civil liberties.

As an American I can't really explain it. Even the ones who believe
that can't explain it in a manner I can understand. A large part of the
problem is a (probably deliberate) mis-reading of the Second Amendment
to our Constitution. For those not aware and interested here is the
entirety of said Amendment.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."

Far too many ignore the first half of it and the context in which it was
written. It was assumed that the US would have little if any standing
army because militias would be called up as needed to defend the
country. (We almost didn't have any navy either.) So the population
had to have access to arms to serve. Problem is that even at the time
that really didn't work, as the Whiskey Rebellion showed. Well, we
don't rely on militia to defend the country anymore so frankly the
Amendment is seriously out of date.

And forget the myth that all American households at the time had a
musket or two. Historical records show that only a small fraction did
and most of those were non-functional display pieces only.

Another argument you will hear is that the population has to be armed so
it can overthrow the government if it goes too far. There's really
nothing I can say to even attempt to explain that.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<ppcv8hhef7217679suo5t8dnu767oed8n5@4ax.com>

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
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Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Thu, 26 May 2022 18:05 UTC

On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:01:41 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2022 5:49 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>>>> Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
>>>> this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
>>>> too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
>>>> completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
>>>> have to do with it? It's the rap music!"

https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html

>>> Oh, that's nothing.  The Governor of Texas, who slashed some 200
>>> million from the state agency in charge of mental health care in the
>>> state, blamed it on insufficient care for the mentally ill.

While the American right wing party is absolutely despicable in their
beliefs (for God's sake, they're now suggesting they arm teachers
rather than take the more obvious solution), the American left wing
party doesn't inspire much confidence either. I particularly "enjoyed"
the American president standing on a podium all but crying, "We need
somebody to do something!", seemingly forgetting he's the one in the
best position to get the ball rolling if he cared for anything but
votes. The poor Americans apparently have a choice between the "I want
your children to die!" party and the "I don't want them to die, but I
won't raise a finger to stop it" party.

>> It just amazes me how many people there are in the US that regardless of
>> the problems they have with guns still consider almost any type of
>> control as an infringement of their civil liberties.

>And forget the myth that all American households at the time had a
>musket or two. Historical records show that only a small fraction did
>and most of those were non-functional display pieces only.

And what guns people were usually tools that were used more
responsibly too, and not just deadly toys and security blankets.

>Another argument you will hear is that the population has to be armed so
>it can overthrow the government if it goes too far. There's really
>nothing I can say to even attempt to explain that.

Honestly, I'm a supporter of that idea /in concept/. A government
SHOULD be afraid of its people (and yes, an armed insurrection CAN
destroy a government, even if the one side has only rifles and the
other has tanks because even if the government wins, they're still
killing their citizens and destroying their own infrastructure. Such
actions can bring down governments, especially those that nominally
depend on the consent of the governed). Such action - revolution -
should always be a last resort for the people - because 99 times out
of a 100, after a revolution any 'new' government is going to be far
worse than the one you started with - but I do support the idea of a
constitutionally-insured promise that the citizenry cannot be entirely
disarmed. It ensures a balance of powers between the governing and the
governed that I think is necessary. But neither does that require
making the entire country a free-fire zone that a some Americans
insist upon. Finding the balance between the two extremes is something
beyond my ability, though... and apparently beyond that of Americans
too, who have seemingly given up on the whole matter.

Of course, the sheer number of guns (400 million civilian-owned guns
in a population of 330 million) isn't really the problem in and of
itself. I'm hesitant to simply point my finger at the atrocious state
of medical care in the US, since that stigmatizes the mentally ill as
being dangerous simply because they have an illness.

Instead, I think the violence has a lot more to do with culturally
sponsored attitude: a refusal to take any personal- and
civil-responsibilities, a personal laziness resulting in always
seeking the 'easy way out', an impatience for any solution doesn't
have immediate favorable results, a promotion of self-aggrandizement
as an end-goal, a lack of self-reflection and generally poor
problem-solving, and a socially-encouraged attitude towards violence
as the ultimate problem-solver. You can throw in various the racial
tensions and declining finances that plague the country too. These are
the CAUSES of the violence; the guns just make the violence
worse.Taking guns out of the equation won't solve the problems, but it
will limit the extent of the damage they cause and are an obvious and
necessary first step. Once you stop (or at least limit) the killing,
then you can work on the underlying causes that push people into such
actions. But that means taking guns off the street.

But of course, Americans won't allow this.

(Or rather, a tiny minority of Americans are dead set against the
idea; the majority of Americans SUPPORT gun control laws. But it's
that tiny majority that are holding the rest hostage, and rather than
step up to them, the rest of America prefers to turn a blind eye...
making them complicit in the carnage.)

I know, I know, this topic really doesn't belong in a gaming newsgroup
(not even with some spur-of-the-moment comment blaming video games for
the violence). But it's hard to remain silent watching Americans
killing so many of their kids and then turning a blind eye to the
problem. Maybe by thrusting it in their face rather than politely
ignoring it like they do, they'll finally face up to it rather than
letting it pass until the next mass-murder.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6ommh$dfj$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Thu, 26 May 2022 13:08:35 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Thu, 26 May 2022 20:08 UTC

On 5/26/2022 11:05 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:01:41 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2022 5:49 PM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>>>>> Yay? Another week, another shooting, another twenty people dead... but
>>>>> this time it isn't ONLY video games that are at fault. It's rap music
>>>>> too!* Certainly this latest attrocity has nothing to do with the
>>>>> completely obvious elephant in the room, no sir. "Guns? What do guns
>>>>> have to do with it? It's the rap music!"
>
>
> https://boingboing.net/2022/05/25/texas-rep-jackson-says-its-unfortunate-media-blames-shootings-on-guns-when-rap-and-video-games-are-the-culprit-video.html
>
>>>> Oh, that's nothing.  The Governor of Texas, who slashed some 200
>>>> million from the state agency in charge of mental health care in the
>>>> state, blamed it on insufficient care for the mentally ill.
>
> While the American right wing party is absolutely despicable in their
> beliefs (for God's sake, they're now suggesting they arm teachers
> rather than take the more obvious solution), the American left wing
> party doesn't inspire much confidence either. I particularly "enjoyed"
> the American president standing on a podium all but crying, "We need
> somebody to do something!", seemingly forgetting he's the one in the
> best position to get the ball rolling if he cared for anything but
> votes. The poor Americans apparently have a choice between the "I want
> your children to die!" party and the "I don't want them to die, but I
> won't raise a finger to stop it" party.
>
>
>>> It just amazes me how many people there are in the US that regardless of
>>> the problems they have with guns still consider almost any type of
>>> control as an infringement of their civil liberties.
>
>> And forget the myth that all American households at the time had a
>> musket or two. Historical records show that only a small fraction did
>> and most of those were non-functional display pieces only.
>
> And what guns people were usually tools that were used more
> responsibly too, and not just deadly toys and security blankets.
>
>> Another argument you will hear is that the population has to be armed so
>> it can overthrow the government if it goes too far. There's really
>> nothing I can say to even attempt to explain that.
>
> Honestly, I'm a supporter of that idea /in concept/. A government
> SHOULD be afraid of its people (and yes, an armed insurrection CAN
> destroy a government, even if the one side has only rifles and the
> other has tanks because even if the government wins, they're still
> killing their citizens and destroying their own infrastructure. Such
> actions can bring down governments, especially those that nominally
> depend on the consent of the governed). Such action - revolution -
> should always be a last resort for the people - because 99 times out
> of a 100, after a revolution any 'new' government is going to be far
> worse than the one you started with - but I do support the idea of a
> constitutionally-insured promise that the citizenry cannot be entirely
> disarmed. It ensures a balance of powers between the governing and the
> governed that I think is necessary. But neither does that require
> making the entire country a free-fire zone that a some Americans
> insist upon. Finding the balance between the two extremes is something
> beyond my ability, though... and apparently beyond that of Americans
> too, who have seemingly given up on the whole matter.
>
>
>
> Of course, the sheer number of guns (400 million civilian-owned guns
> in a population of 330 million) isn't really the problem in and of
> itself. I'm hesitant to simply point my finger at the atrocious state
> of medical care in the US, since that stigmatizes the mentally ill as
> being dangerous simply because they have an illness.
>
> Instead, I think the violence has a lot more to do with culturally
> sponsored attitude: a refusal to take any personal- and
> civil-responsibilities, a personal laziness resulting in always
> seeking the 'easy way out', an impatience for any solution doesn't
> have immediate favorable results, a promotion of self-aggrandizement
> as an end-goal, a lack of self-reflection and generally poor
> problem-solving, and a socially-encouraged attitude towards violence
> as the ultimate problem-solver. You can throw in various the racial
> tensions and declining finances that plague the country too. These are
> the CAUSES of the violence; the guns just make the violence
> worse.Taking guns out of the equation won't solve the problems, but it
> will limit the extent of the damage they cause and are an obvious and
> necessary first step. Once you stop (or at least limit) the killing,
> then you can work on the underlying causes that push people into such
> actions. But that means taking guns off the street.
>
> But of course, Americans won't allow this.
>
> (Or rather, a tiny minority of Americans are dead set against the
> idea; the majority of Americans SUPPORT gun control laws. But it's
> that tiny majority that are holding the rest hostage, and rather than
> step up to them, the rest of America prefers to turn a blind eye...
> making them complicit in the carnage.)
>
> I know, I know, this topic really doesn't belong in a gaming newsgroup
> (not even with some spur-of-the-moment comment blaming video games for
> the violence). But it's hard to remain silent watching Americans
> killing so many of their kids and then turning a blind eye to the
> problem. Maybe by thrusting it in their face rather than politely
> ignoring it like they do, they'll finally face up to it rather than
> letting it pass until the next mass-murder.
>
There is a lot to say about what is wrong in the US. And there is a
huge number of us in this country who have not given up or are ignoring
the problem. But here's an example what we are facing in trying to
reign in the violence:

"Stephen Colbert noted that gun control has widespread bipartisan
popularity, with 90% of voters supporting background checks.

“The only thing more popular than background checks is Dolly Parton
riding a corgi bringing you free ice cream,” he cracked, and even
offered up an image:

“And birthday sex,” he added. “With free ice cream.”

Yet, Republican lawmakers are doing everything they can to block any
attempt to restrict firearms, and they’re offering some absurd
justifications for doing so in the wake of this week’s mass shooting at
a Texas elementary school.

“We can’t stop bad people from doing bad things,” Texas Attorney General
Ken Paxton said. “They’re going to violate murder laws, they’re not
going to follow gun laws, I’ve never understood that argument.”

That left Colbert scratching his head.

“I gotta say: ‘Laws are pointless’ is a bold position for the attorney
general,” Colbert said. “I think he just announced ‘The Purge.’”"

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/stephen-colbert-rips-dumbest-possible-080133368.html

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6q4nu$rr6$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7403&group=comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action#7403

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From: now...@nochance.com (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Fri, 27 May 2022 10:13:32 +0100
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 by: JAB - Fri, 27 May 2022 09:13 UTC

On 26/05/2022 21:08, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> There is a lot to say about what is wrong in the US.  And there is a
> huge number of us in this country who have not given up or are ignoring
> the problem.  But here's an example what we are facing in trying to
> reign in the violence:
>
> "Stephen Colbert noted that gun control has widespread bipartisan
> popularity, with 90% of voters supporting background checks.
>
> “The only thing more popular than background checks is Dolly Parton
> riding a corgi bringing you free ice cream,” he cracked, and even
> offered up an image:
>
> “And birthday sex,” he added. “With free ice cream.”
>
> Yet, Republican lawmakers are doing everything they can to block any
> attempt to restrict firearms, and they’re offering some absurd
> justifications for doing so in the wake of this week’s mass shooting at
> a Texas elementary school.
>
> “We can’t stop bad people from doing bad things,” Texas Attorney General
> Ken Paxton said. “They’re going to violate murder laws, they’re not
> going to follow gun laws, I’ve never understood that argument.”
>
> That left Colbert scratching his head.
>
> “I gotta say: ‘Laws are pointless’ is a bold position for the attorney
> general,” Colbert said. “I think he just announced ‘The Purge.’”"
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/stephen-colbert-rips-dumbest-possible-080133368.html
>

I did see that one and just thought well that's a good point. If you
don't have any laws then the crime rate will be non-existent. Maybe have
a half-way house where no one is sent to gaol as that clearly doesn't
stop people doing bad things!

Another one I would have found amusing if it wasn't over such a tragic
situation was Ted Cruz being asked by a reporter from Sky News about the
issue. The basic response was to try and dodge the question, walk off,
then become aggressive and finally basically say if it's so bad why do
so many people want to come to the US.

Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again

<t6qnmp$173$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7404&group=comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action#7404

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From: dtra...@sonic.net (Dimensional Traveler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Video Games Are To Blame... Again
Date: Fri, 27 May 2022 07:37:05 -0700
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 by: Dimensional Traveler - Fri, 27 May 2022 14:37 UTC

On 5/27/2022 2:13 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 26/05/2022 21:08, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>
>> There is a lot to say about what is wrong in the US.  And there is a
>> huge number of us in this country who have not given up or are
>> ignoring the problem.  But here's an example what we are facing in
>> trying to reign in the violence:
>>
>> "Stephen Colbert noted that gun control has widespread bipartisan
>> popularity, with 90% of voters supporting background checks.
>>
>> “The only thing more popular than background checks is Dolly Parton
>> riding a corgi bringing you free ice cream,” he cracked, and even
>> offered up an image:
>>
>> “And birthday sex,” he added. “With free ice cream.”
>>
>> Yet, Republican lawmakers are doing everything they can to block any
>> attempt to restrict firearms, and they’re offering some absurd
>> justifications for doing so in the wake of this week’s mass shooting
>> at a Texas elementary school.
>>
>> “We can’t stop bad people from doing bad things,” Texas Attorney
>> General Ken Paxton said. “They’re going to violate murder laws,
>> they’re not going to follow gun laws, I’ve never understood that
>> argument.”
>>
>> That left Colbert scratching his head.
>>
>> “I gotta say: ‘Laws are pointless’ is a bold position for the attorney
>> general,” Colbert said. “I think he just announced ‘The Purge.’”"
>>
>> https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/stephen-colbert-rips-dumbest-possible-080133368.html
>>
>
> I did see that one and just thought well that's a good point. If you
> don't have any laws then the crime rate will be non-existent. Maybe have
> a half-way house where no one is sent to gaol as that clearly doesn't
> stop people doing bad things!
>
> Another one I would have found amusing if it wasn't over such a tragic
> situation was Ted Cruz being asked by a reporter from Sky News about the
> issue. The basic response was to try and dodge the question, walk off,
> then become aggressive and finally basically say if it's so bad why do
> so many people want to come to the US.
>
And Cruz walked off was because the reporter was asking him, a
politician, a political question. *eyeroll*

As for why they come to the US, because at least here they can earn a
little more money and have a slightly higher chance of surviving being
shot by a roving drug cartel hit squad or civil war militia.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

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