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computers / alt.os.linux.mint / Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
+- Re: [OT] second opinion needed.user
+* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul in Houston TX
|`- Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
+* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Mark Bourne
|`* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
| `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Mark Bourne
|  `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
|   `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
|    `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
|     `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
|      `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
|       `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
|        `* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul
|         `- Re: [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
`* Re: [OT] second opinion needed.pinnerite
 `- Re: [OT] second opinion needed.Paul

1
[OT] second opinion needed.

<20231227233435.4432871d5c893f8e7335656b@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 23:34:35 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pinnerite - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 23:34 UTC

New desktop
-----------
ASUS PRIME X670-P WIFI ATX Motherboard Serial Number: NCM0KK07G302HA3
AMD Ryzen 7 7700 AM5 Processor
Kingston FURY Beast 32GB 6000MHz DDR5 CL36 DIMM Memory - Black
JonSbo QT101-Black Midi Case
Corsair RM 850Wx Power supply
Peerless Assassin 120 SE CPU Heat Sink
Kingston FURY Renegade 1TB PCIe Gen 4.0 NVMe M.2 SSD
ASUS Radeon RX 6600 8GB DUAL Graphics Card
------------------------------------------------------
Fully assembled, this wouldn't even start up.

The Corsair is one of those "fully modular" power bricks.
I didn't have another but I did have a new non-modular 500 watt supply
and an elderly power supply tester.

I first tested a non-modular 500 watt supply by inserting both the 18
pin and the 6 pin plugs. All the lamps illuminated.

I then tried the Corsair. No lamps illuminated but that may have been
because of poor contacts, perhaps because the tester had been unused for
over ten years.

However many year ago I had a system cease working. It turned out to be
a short from motherboard to case.

So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
conductive bag that it came with. So motherboard, processor heatsink
and fans, SSD and modular power supply. Into this I plugged a wired
keyboard, mouse and a monitor.

When I powered up, the mouse LED lit up, the CPU fan spun for a
second or two and a hum or shallow beep was heard for a fraction of a
second from the poweer brick but that was that.

I have ordered another 850 watt modular supply to eliminate that source
of the problem. If the result is the same I am left with the problem of
wondering how to determine if I have a duff motherboard or CPU.

So! How should I resolve that dilemma?

TIA

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<4Z2jN.87003$Ama9.44899@fx12.iad>

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From: nic...@none.gov (user)
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
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 by: user - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 00:05 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 23:34:35 +0000, pinnerite wrote:

> New desktop -----------
> ASUS PRIME X670-P WIFI ATX Motherboard Serial Number: NCM0KK07G302HA3
> AMD Ryzen 7 7700 AM5 Processor Kingston FURY Beast 32GB 6000MHz DDR5
> CL36 DIMM Memory - Black JonSbo QT101-Black Midi Case Corsair RM 850Wx
> Power supply Peerless Assassin 120 SE CPU Heat Sink Kingston FURY
> Renegade 1TB PCIe Gen 4.0 NVMe M.2 SSD ASUS Radeon RX 6600 8GB DUAL
> Graphics Card ------------------------------------------------------
> Fully assembled, this wouldn't even start up.
>
> The Corsair is one of those "fully modular" power bricks.
> I didn't have another but I did have a new non-modular 500 watt supply
> and an elderly power supply tester.
>
> I first tested a non-modular 500 watt supply by inserting both the 18
> pin and the 6 pin plugs. All the lamps illuminated.
>
> I then tried the Corsair. No lamps illuminated but that may have been
> because of poor contacts, perhaps because the tester had been unused for
> over ten years.
>
> However many year ago I had a system cease working. It turned out to be
> a short from motherboard to case.
>
> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case and
> created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the conductive
> bag that it came with. So motherboard, processor heatsink and fans, SSD
> and modular power supply. Into this I plugged a wired keyboard, mouse
> and a monitor.
>
> When I powered up, the mouse LED lit up, the CPU fan spun for a second
> or two and a hum or shallow beep was heard for a fraction of a second
> from the poweer brick but that was that.
>
> I have ordered another 850 watt modulad supply to eliminate that source
> of the problem. If the result is the same I am left with the problem of
> wondering how to determine if I have a duff motherboard or CPU.
>
> So! How should I resolve that dilemma?
>
> TIA

Chanes are you have a fried mb. The fact that it is not posting is a bad
sign.

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<umin7r$5o1e$1@dont-email.me>

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From: Pau...@Houston.Texas (Paul in Houston TX)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 20:40:50 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul in Houston TX - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 02:40 UTC

pinnerite wrote:
> New desktop
> -----------
> ASUS PRIME X670-P WIFI ATX Motherboard Serial Number: NCM0KK07G302HA3
> AMD Ryzen 7 7700 AM5 Processor
> Kingston FURY Beast 32GB 6000MHz DDR5 CL36 DIMM Memory - Black
> JonSbo QT101-Black Midi Case
> Corsair RM 850Wx Power supply
> Peerless Assassin 120 SE CPU Heat Sink
> Kingston FURY Renegade 1TB PCIe Gen 4.0 NVMe M.2 SSD
> ASUS Radeon RX 6600 8GB DUAL Graphics Card
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Fully assembled, this wouldn't even start up.
>
> The Corsair is one of those "fully modular" power bricks.
> I didn't have another but I did have a new non-modular 500 watt supply
> and an elderly power supply tester.
>
> I first tested a non-modular 500 watt supply by inserting both the 18
> pin and the 6 pin plugs. All the lamps illuminated.
>
> I then tried the Corsair. No lamps illuminated but that may have been
> because of poor contacts, perhaps because the tester had been unused for
> over ten years.
>
> However many year ago I had a system cease working. It turned out to be
> a short from motherboard to case.
>
> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
> conductive bag that it came with. So motherboard, processor heatsink
> and fans, SSD and modular power supply. Into this I plugged a wired
> keyboard, mouse and a monitor.
>
> When I powered up, the mouse LED lit up, the CPU fan spun for a
> second or two and a hum or shallow beep was heard for a fraction of a
> second from the poweer brick but that was that.
>
> I have ordered another 850 watt modular supply to eliminate that source
> of the problem. If the result is the same I am left with the problem of
> wondering how to determine if I have a duff motherboard or CPU.
>
> So! How should I resolve that dilemma?
>
> TIA

Does the p/s turn on when you jump the atx connector?
If so, do all the plugs have to correct voltages?
There are plenty of youtube vids that show how.
Pin outs are also available.

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<umj283$9j9d$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 00:48:49 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 05:48 UTC

On 12/27/2023 9:40 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> pinnerite wrote:
>> New desktop
>> -----------
>> ASUS PRIME X670-P WIFI ATX Motherboard  Serial Number: NCM0KK07G302HA3
>> AMD Ryzen 7 7700 AM5 Processor
>> Kingston FURY Beast 32GB 6000MHz DDR5 CL36 DIMM Memory - Black
>> JonSbo QT101-Black Midi Case
>> Corsair RM 850Wx Power supply
>> Peerless Assassin 120 SE CPU Heat Sink
>> Kingston FURY Renegade 1TB PCIe Gen 4.0 NVMe M.2 SSD
>> ASUS Radeon RX 6600 8GB DUAL Graphics Card
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Fully assembled, this wouldn't even start up.
>>
>> The Corsair is one of those "fully modular" power bricks.
>> I didn't have another but I did have a new non-modular 500 watt supply
>> and an elderly power supply tester.
>>
>> I first tested a non-modular 500 watt supply by inserting both the 18
>> pin and the 6 pin plugs. All the lamps illuminated.
>>
>> I then tried the Corsair.  No lamps illuminated but that may have been
>> because of poor contacts, perhaps because the tester had been unused for
>> over ten years.
>>
>> However many year ago I had a system cease working. It turned out to be
>> a short from motherboard to case.
>>
>> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
>> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
>> conductive bag that it came with. So motherboard, processor heatsink
>> and fans, SSD and modular power supply. Into this I plugged a wired
>> keyboard, mouse and a monitor.
>>
>> When I powered up, the mouse LED lit up, the CPU fan spun for a
>> second or two and a hum or shallow beep was heard for a fraction of a
>> second from the poweer brick but that was that.
>>
>> I have ordered another 850 watt modular supply to eliminate that source
>> of the problem. If the result is the same I am left with the problem of
>> wondering how to determine if I have a duff motherboard or CPU.
>>
>> So! How should I resolve that dilemma?
>>
>> TIA
>
> Does the p/s turn on when you jump the atx connector?
> If so, do all the plugs have to correct voltages?
> There are plenty of youtube vids that show how.
> Pin outs are also available.
>

It's possible his power supply tester, already has a switch for PS_ON#.
Page 36 and 37.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070216095440if_/http://www.formfactors.org:80/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/qqmbThvQ/atx-V2-2-main-pinout-switch-location.gif

1) Plug into wall, with switch set to "0".

2) Set PSU back switch to "1" position, to create some voltages.

3) Verify pin 9 purple reads +5VSB voltage of 5.0V .

This is a supervisor voltage, and powers the "soft on" front
button PC case handling logic on the motherboard.

Notice that +5VSB runs, as soon as switch goes to "1" position in step (2).
No fan runs for this step. Ground is a black wire, for the multimeter reference.

4) To start supply, connect pin 16 green, to an adjacent pin 15 black (GND).

Pin 16 "PS_ON#" is active low and open collector, and for as long as you hold PS_ON# at
Ground level, the supply produces its main DC output voltages
(the ones other than +5VSB, start running).

The fan in the PSU, runs off the +12V it makes. The fan is thermally
controlled in some cases, and can be set to spin at zero RPMs until
some heatsink hits 50C.

You can verify the voltages if you wish. Modern supplies are generally
open circuit stable. Some older supplies are not. Supplies with special
requirements have *two* rows of numbers. One row is max current.
One row is min current. The worst supply known, insisted it needed
25% of rated current be drawn on one of the rails, in order to
ensure stability.

Modern PSU testers may draw a couple amps from +5V, as a "token loading".
Connecting a couple hard drives (just the power cable), presents about
that much loading. None of the supplies I've owned, have needed loading
to be stable and have their voltages within spec.

+------------------ 12V out
mains -- switcher ---- 12VDC --+--- 5.0VDC_cct --- 5.0V out <=== loading 5V,
for 12V +--- 3.3VDC_cct --- 3.3V out loads two circuits
\________/ 5V and 12V.
Small cct
board

That is known as double forward conversion. A switcher makes 12V,
and it feeds a second switcher to make 3.3V and 5V.

12V <=== one giant output, multiple current limiters and looms, no loop currents possible
5V 5V for hard drives, SSD, DVD
3.3V 3.3V for PCI Express slot, other low voltage logic.
GND Ground.
-5V Disappeared from ATX PSU outputs year 2000. Used for ECL, or three rail DRAM power
-12V Still present. Powers 75232 RS232 level shifter, if present.

+5VSB Supervisor voltage, also runs USB Ports. The PS_ON# pullup
resistor, runs off +5VSB.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<umjncf$c7pj$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nntp.mbo...@spamgourmet.com (Mark Bourne)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:49:34 +0000
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In-Reply-To: <20231227233435.4432871d5c893f8e7335656b@gmail.com>
 by: Mark Bourne - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:49 UTC

pinnerite wrote:
> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
> conductive bag that it came with.
Powering up the motherboard while it's sat on a conductive bag is
unlikely to help. The resistance of those bags does tend to be quite
high (they only need to leak enough current to prevent a static charge
building up), but could be enough to interfere with operation of the
board. Hopefully it won't have caused enough of a short to do any
permanent damage.

If you want to avoid mounting the motherboard in the case (sounds like
you suspect a short somewhere when doing that), the next best is
probably to mount it on metal PCB spacers to hold it away from the
surface (if you put that on the bag, make sure any creases/wrinkles in
the bag don't touch the bottom of the board).

--
Mark.

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<umjrp6$cqev$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:04:36 -0500
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 by: Paul - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 13:04 UTC

On 12/28/2023 6:49 AM, Mark Bourne wrote:
> pinnerite wrote:
>> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
>> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
>> conductive bag that it came with.
> Powering up the motherboard while it's sat on a conductive bag is unlikely to help.  The resistance of those bags does tend to be quite high (they only need to leak enough current to prevent a static charge building up), but could be enough to interfere with operation of the board.  Hopefully it won't have caused enough of a short to do any permanent damage.
>
> If you want to avoid mounting the motherboard in the case (sounds like you suspect a short somewhere when doing that), the next best is probably to mount it on metal PCB spacers to hold it away from the surface (if you put that on the bag, make sure any creases/wrinkles in the bag don't touch the bottom of the board).
>

On my most recent build, I tried to mount an eight-hole motherboard
on a nine-post computer case. This caused one post to touch where
it should not touch.

I had fitted and aligned the motherboard, when the thought occurred to
me, that this might have happened. That I'd been too stupid to notice
the excess post.

I had to take the motherboard out, take the driver and undo the post,
leaving 8 functional posts. Then repeat the exercise of setting it up.

The posts are intended to touch the metal ring on each hole. This
brings the chassis to the same potential as the ground exposed on the
bottom of the motherboard.

What you don't want to happen, is a post to be touching a motherboard,
where there is no hole. On one motherboard model, the post touches one
of the audio channels on LineOut, killing the sound in one channel. When
a user contacted Asus support and wanted to do an RMA for a defective
audio channel, the guy on the other end knew exactly what was wrong,
and removing the post, fixed the audio.

I use a telephone book, as a stand for test setups. The cardboard on the
cover, does not appreciably conduct. At least some of the modern
processors have an integrated GPU, and you can test the motherboard
without the video card plugged in. In this case, the OP hasn't been
into the BIOS yet, so the defaults will still be there. The Ryzen 7 7700
apparently has a GPU inside it.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<20231228173736.3603c90ec3c91c77afe8c810@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 17:37:36 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pinnerite - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 17:37 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 23:34:35 +0000
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:

> New desktop
> -----------
The substitute power supply (a Gigabyte P850GM 850W 80 Plus Gold)
arrived unexpectedly today.

I replaced the Corsair with it and even removed the SSD before
powering up. Again there was a quick spin of the CPU fans and the power
brick fan and then nothing. So it is either the CPU or the motherboard.

Still at square one.

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<umkt0n$hlqt$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 17:31:50 -0500
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 by: Paul - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 22:31 UTC

On 12/28/2023 12:37 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 23:34:35 +0000
> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> New desktop
>> -----------
> The substitute power supply (a Gigabyte P850GM 850W 80 Plus Gold)
> arrived unexpectedly today.
>
> I replaced the Corsair with it and even removed the SSD before
> powering up. Again there was a quick spin of the CPU fans and the power
> brick fan and then nothing. So it is either the CPU or the motherboard.
>
> Still at square one.

2x4 ATX12V connected (do not connect the 2x2 on the left)
24 pin main ATX connected
AM5 CPU seated and lever latched down
Cooler fitted, minimum of CPU fan connected to 1x4 fan header, paste on CPU (five dots)

At least PWR SW 1x2 cable hooked to front panel power button

Hooking up all five PWR,RST,HDDLED,PWRLED,SPKR
gives the speaker for listening for beep errors.
With RAM removed, a three beep error means the
CPU is alive enough to operate the beeper and
run some BIOS code. Running without RAM, is a test case.
+ - + -
PWR PWR SPKR <=== 1x4, two middle missing
LED SW (BEEP) Polarization added, only to
X X X X X X X X show that the outer pins are in usage

X X X X X LEDs cannot be damaged by reversal.
HDD RST NC SW cannot be damaged by reversal.
LED SW
+ -

Monitor to HDMI port (for eventual BIOS screen interaction)

CLRTC two pin, no jumper present (lower left of board) [would drain battery!]

Verify battery voltage on CR2032 >= 3.0V

*******

PC with mains cord connected.
Monitor connected.
If RAM missing - three beep code \___ If a machine beeps, it's alive, beep is a good sign
If Keyboard missing - some beep code /
Connect keyboard,mouse for UEFI interaction.

1) Flip PSU switch from 0 to 1

Expected result:

System may start for 1.0 seconds. Processor checks
"should I wake up setting", default is No, CPU powers
off system, PSU fan goes back off, CPU fan goes off.
System is quiet.

Fail case:

Fans twitch for 35 milliseconds (PSU current limiter enables
after 35 milliseconds). If PSU has stopped the system, there is
a short, and a pretty significant short to shut off a high power PSU.

Fail case:

Any LED indicators flashing. Or other vital signs. HDMI monitor
should not start (other than the OSD loss of signal dialog).
This system has no LEDs, not even the tradition Asus LED for +5VSB status. green=present

2) If the system started for one second, and the PSU has not
bailed on us, now it is time to momentarily (0.5 sec) press
the PWR SW on the front panel. The switch is "normally open"
and a momentary short between the two pins, is "latched" as a
"I want to start system". A logic gate on the board, drives PS_ON#
to GND level. A multimeter would see 0.4 volts on PS_ON# (back of shell access).

Expected result:

PSU fan spins (indicating PS_ON# asserted for longer period of time)
CPU fan spins (but can be slowly, until CPU warms)
"First start" takes longer than normal.
Might take as long as one minute for HDMI monitor to have a splash screen.
For an Asus, press <DEL> key to enter BIOS.
BIOS should plop you into an "F1 start" prompt anyway, for a first start,
but you can still use <DEL> when the screen lights up.

In the BIOS, you don't need to do much. You can locate the
XMP setting and turn it on for your two RAM sticks. Then
"Save and Exit" and the RAM will now run full speed. Run
memtest for a first test case.

Note that, after several BIOS startups, a good BIOS will no longer
be a laggard, and will switch to a five second start. Part of the
original sluggish behavior, is recording hardware config in DMI.
Memory may also receive somewhat of a test.

I recommend disabling the Asus splash screen, so you can see
the Asus text sequence startup. It will show detected storage
devices, and if a cable has fallen out (or like my big HDD,
it failed to spin up), you might notice the lack of detection
in the text.

If the screen never lights up, try the DP output. If that
does not work, use a DP to VGA adapter, and use the VGA port
on the monitor.

A failure to light up, would normally be interpreted as
"BIOS does not like CPU". However, the CPU compatibility
chart for this motherboard, shows *no* version dependency.
All CPUs work with first-version BIOS. However, XMP does not
work on first gen BIOS, and a flash-up to a later BIOS version,
may be required to get XMP going, and finally switch on XMP and
have it work. But you're a good distance away from these concerns
at the moment.

I like to install Windows, just long enough so I can use CPU-Z
and verify the hardware is clocked properly. Windows can then be
deleted, and Linux installed. Wifi on this system is apparently
a problem child for Linux, so expect some work there. And it's not
a 6E, it might only be a 6 (which is good, as you would hope
the driver is ready).

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<ump0cj$190ls$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nntp.mbo...@spamgourmet.com (Mark Bourne)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:53:54 +0000
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 by: Mark Bourne - Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:53 UTC

Paul wrote:
> On 12/28/2023 6:49 AM, Mark Bourne wrote:
>> pinnerite wrote:
>>> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
>>> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
>>> conductive bag that it came with.
>> Powering up the motherboard while it's sat on a conductive bag is unlikely to help.  The resistance of those bags does tend to be quite high (they only need to leak enough current to prevent a static charge building up), but could be enough to interfere with operation of the board.  Hopefully it won't have caused enough of a short to do any permanent damage.
>>
>> If you want to avoid mounting the motherboard in the case (sounds like you suspect a short somewhere when doing that), the next best is probably to mount it on metal PCB spacers to hold it away from the surface (if you put that on the bag, make sure any creases/wrinkles in the bag don't touch the bottom of the board).
>>
>
> On my most recent build, I tried to mount an eight-hole motherboard
> on a nine-post computer case. This caused one post to touch where
> it should not touch.
>
> I had fitted and aligned the motherboard, when the thought occurred to
> me, that this might have happened. That I'd been too stupid to notice
> the excess post.
>
> I had to take the motherboard out, take the driver and undo the post,
> leaving 8 functional posts. Then repeat the exercise of setting it up.
>
> The posts are intended to touch the metal ring on each hole. This
> brings the chassis to the same potential as the ground exposed on the
> bottom of the motherboard.
>
> What you don't want to happen, is a post to be touching a motherboard,
> where there is no hole. On one motherboard model, the post touches one
> of the audio channels on LineOut, killing the sound in one channel. When
> a user contacted Asus support and wanted to do an RMA for a defective
> audio channel, the guy on the other end knew exactly what was wrong,
> and removing the post, fixed the audio.
>
> I use a telephone book, as a stand for test setups. The cardboard on the
> cover, does not appreciably conduct. At least some of the modern
> processors have an integrated GPU, and you can test the motherboard
> without the video card plugged in. In this case, the OP hasn't been
> into the BIOS yet, so the defaults will still be there. The Ryzen 7 7700
> apparently has a GPU inside it.

I agree with all of that, and what you describe for a test setup is
similar to what I'd do if I wanted to power up a motherboard without
mounting it in a case.

pinnerite said they'd:
> created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the conductive bag that it came with.

I interpreted that as meaning they'd just placed the motherboard
directly on the conductive anti-static bag, with no spacers to separate
it. Depending where the board contacts the bag, anything could be
shorted to anything else. The relatively high impedance of the bag
would hopefully avoid the permanent damage that a direct short could
cause, but perhaps it could still be enough to cause the board to
malfunction while powered up like that. I'm not saying there isn't
another problem with the setup that needs to be diagnosed, but wouldn't
like to take failure to power up correctly while sat on a conductive bag
as evidence of a motherboard or PSU fault.

--
Mark.

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<ump25g$197u6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
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 by: Paul - Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:24 UTC

On 12/30/2023 6:53 AM, Mark Bourne wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> On 12/28/2023 6:49 AM, Mark Bourne wrote:
>>> pinnerite wrote:
>>>> So hoping it might work again, I stripped everything out of the case
>>>> and created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the
>>>> conductive bag that it came with.
>>> Powering up the motherboard while it's sat on a conductive bag is unlikely to help.  The resistance of those bags does tend to be quite high (they only need to leak enough current to prevent a static charge building up), but could be enough to interfere with operation of the board.  Hopefully it won't have caused enough of a short to do any permanent damage.
>>>
>>> If you want to avoid mounting the motherboard in the case (sounds like you suspect a short somewhere when doing that), the next best is probably to mount it on metal PCB spacers to hold it away from the surface (if you put that on the bag, make sure any creases/wrinkles in the bag don't touch the bottom of the board).
>>>
>>
>> On my most recent build, I tried to mount an eight-hole motherboard
>> on a nine-post computer case. This caused one post to touch where
>> it should not touch.
>>
>> I had fitted and aligned the motherboard, when the thought occurred to
>> me, that this might have happened. That I'd been too stupid to notice
>> the excess post.
>>
>> I had to take the motherboard out, take the driver and undo the post,
>> leaving 8 functional posts. Then repeat the exercise of setting it up.
>>
>> The posts are intended to touch the metal ring on each hole. This
>> brings the chassis to the same potential as the ground exposed on the
>> bottom of the motherboard.
>>
>> What you don't want to happen, is a post to be touching a motherboard,
>> where there is no hole. On one motherboard model, the post touches one
>> of the audio channels on LineOut, killing the sound in one channel. When
>> a user contacted Asus support and wanted to do an RMA for a defective
>> audio channel, the guy on the other end knew exactly what was wrong,
>> and removing the post, fixed the audio.
>>
>> I use a telephone book, as a stand for test setups. The cardboard on the
>> cover, does not appreciably conduct. At least some of the modern
>> processors have an integrated GPU, and you can test the motherboard
>> without the video card plugged in. In this case, the OP hasn't been
>> into the BIOS yet, so the defaults will still be there. The Ryzen 7 7700
>> apparently has a GPU inside it.
>
> I agree with all of that, and what you describe for a test setup is similar to what I'd do if I wanted to power up a motherboard without mounting it in a case.
>
> pinnerite said they'd:
>> created a minimal system with the motherboard sitting on the conductive bag that it came with.
>
> I interpreted that as meaning they'd just placed the motherboard directly on the conductive anti-static bag, with no spacers to separate it.  Depending where the board contacts the bag, anything could be shorted to anything else.  The relatively high impedance of the bag would hopefully avoid the permanent damage that a direct short could cause, but perhaps it could still be enough to cause the board to malfunction while powered up like that.  I'm not saying there isn't another problem with the setup that needs to be diagnosed, but wouldn't like to take failure to power up correctly while sat on a conductive bag as evidence of a motherboard or PSU fault.
>

I'm hoping this is new stock, and not a return from somewhere!

I agree the ESD bag external impedance is unlikely to hurt anything.
It may upset an oscillator, around the quartz crystal area.
I prefer to use the phone book with the card-cover for this.
It is a bit less conductive.

I think all the motherboards I've done builds with worked. There
was only one exception.

There was a board with an ALI chipset. I tried for three weeks, to
get it to run stable. It wouldn't. My conclusion as an engineer, is
the silicon fab selected for the manufacturing, did not have a
fast enough process to be building AGP slots. It was basically
a failed design. None of the motherboards was ever going to have
"design margin". As I understand it, some of the idiots doing these,
they insisted on using the wrong tester at the fab, and they tested
two halves of the Northbridge in separate tests -- because the
"tester had run out of channels". They used a too-small tester,
to vet the chips and select good ones.

It was the experience during those three weeks, and the lack
of help I got in the motherboard groups, which is why I started
helping people on USENET.

There have been other fab errors. This isn't the only story I could tell.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<20240102164517.d3752b97cfd709499333f6e2@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 16:45:17 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Tue, 2 Jan 2024 16:45 UTC

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>

It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
Like this one it would not start.

The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.

As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.

However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.

I must say, they have always been good to deal with.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
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 by: Paul - Tue, 2 Jan 2024 20:22 UTC

On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>
> It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
> Like this one it would not start.
>
> The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
> My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
>
> As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
>
> However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
>
> I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
>
> Alan
>

This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:54:35 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:54 UTC

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:22:37 -0500
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
> > Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
> > Like this one it would not start.
> >
> > The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
> > My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
> >
> > As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
> >
> > However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
> >
> > I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
> >
> > Alan
> >
>
> This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
> The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.
>
> Paul

Too late for that. Anyway I don't have a local shop.
I received a message today saying eBuyer's engineers tested the motherboard. Thery say it is fine and shoulkd arrive back tomorrow.

They are collecting the processor on Thursday.
I didn't consider the DRAM because even without it, the POST should beep and it didn't.
Watch this (miserable) space.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<uni26v$1ndin$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:58:23 -0500
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 by: Paul - Mon, 8 Jan 2024 23:58 UTC

On 1/8/2024 1:54 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:22:37 -0500
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
>>> Like this one it would not start.
>>>
>>> The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
>>> My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
>>>
>>> As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
>>>
>>> However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
>>>
>>> I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>
>> This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
>> The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Too late for that. Anyway I don't have a local shop.
> I received a message today saying eBuyer's engineers tested the motherboard. Thery say it is fine and shoulkd arrive back tomorrow.
>
> They are collecting the processor on Thursday.
> I didn't consider the DRAM because even without it, the POST should beep and it didn't.
> Watch this (miserable) space.
>
> Alan

If the motherboard was good, then you should have been
able to turn on your power supply with it and have
the fans spin.

It's one thing to have the fans spin, and it's another
to get a system to start. To start, RESET must be de-asserted
(you can't be leaning on the reset button). But the other
indicator, is "POWER_GOOD", which the power supply sends
to the motherboard. The motherboard also has its own converters
that have a status signal. When all the power sources signal
they have started OK, that's when the processor is allowed to
jump to the starting vector.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<20240109173127.600d74edf9d967a76e313010@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:31:27 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:31 UTC

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:58:23 -0500
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/8/2024 1:54 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:22:37 -0500
> > Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
> >>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
> >>> Like this one it would not start.
> >>>
> >>> The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
> >>> My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
> >>>
> >>> As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
> >>>
> >>> However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
> >>>
> >>> I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
> >>>
> >>> Alan
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
> >> The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > Too late for that. Anyway I don't have a local shop.
> > I received a message today saying eBuyer's engineers tested the motherboard. Thery say it is fine and shoulkd arrive back tomorrow.
> >
> > They are collecting the processor on Thursday.
> > I didn't consider the DRAM because even without it, the POST should beep and it didn't.
> > Watch this (miserable) space.
> >
> > Alan
>
> If the motherboard was good, then you should have been
> able to turn on your power supply with it and have
> the fans spin.
>
> It's one thing to have the fans spin, and it's another
> to get a system to start. To start, RESET must be de-asserted
> (you can't be leaning on the reset button). But the other
> indicator, is "POWER_GOOD", which the power supply sends
> to the motherboard. The motherboard also has its own converters
> that have a status signal. When all the power sources signal
> they have started OK, that's when the processor is allowed to
> jump to the starting vector.
>
> Paul
>
>
The fans flicked but that is all. I assumed the power supply wasat fault, bought another and proved I was wrong. The motherboard has come back, said to be OK. The processor goes off Thursday.

I assumed that RAM isn't needed just to a beep from the piezoelectric speaker.
Surely one of tests is to check if RAM is present.
I hope I'm correct.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<unkq45$27491$2@dont-email.me>

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 19:58:46 -0500
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 by: Paul - Wed, 10 Jan 2024 00:58 UTC

On 1/9/2024 12:31 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:58:23 -0500
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/8/2024 1:54 PM, pinnerite wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:22:37 -0500
>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
>>>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
>>>>> Like this one it would not start.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
>>>>> My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
>>>>>
>>>>> I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
>>>> The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Too late for that. Anyway I don't have a local shop.
>>> I received a message today saying eBuyer's engineers tested the motherboard. Thery say it is fine and shoulkd arrive back tomorrow.
>>>
>>> They are collecting the processor on Thursday.
>>> I didn't consider the DRAM because even without it, the POST should beep and it didn't.
>>> Watch this (miserable) space.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>
>> If the motherboard was good, then you should have been
>> able to turn on your power supply with it and have
>> the fans spin.
>>
>> It's one thing to have the fans spin, and it's another
>> to get a system to start. To start, RESET must be de-asserted
>> (you can't be leaning on the reset button). But the other
>> indicator, is "POWER_GOOD", which the power supply sends
>> to the motherboard. The motherboard also has its own converters
>> that have a status signal. When all the power sources signal
>> they have started OK, that's when the processor is allowed to
>> jump to the starting vector.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
> The fans flicked but that is all. I assumed the power supply wasat fault, bought another and proved I was wrong. The motherboard has come back, said to be OK. The processor goes off Thursday.
>
> I assumed that RAM isn't needed just to a beep from the piezoelectric speaker.
> Surely one of tests is to check if RAM is present.
> I hope I'm correct.
>
> Alan

If the processor is good and there is no RAM, you get three beeps.

This assumes the cabinet speaker is connected to the SPKR header
(or, that the motherboard has a piezoelectric element onboard).

In fact, I used that test on my last build. For fun. Fired up
with no RAM, just to make it beep. That's because I have no
Port 80 POST card for testing.

Paul

Re: [OT] second opinion needed.

<20240111130838.88dd1c93a6f17b56cb4d9a08@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: [OT] second opinion needed.
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 by: pinnerite - Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:08 UTC

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 19:58:46 -0500
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 1/9/2024 12:31 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> > On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:58:23 -0500
> > Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/8/2024 1:54 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:22:37 -0500
> >>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 1/2/2024 11:45 AM, pinnerite wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:15 -0500
> >>>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is 46 years since I built my first computer (a Nascom 1).
> >>>>> Like this one it would not start.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The problem was eventually pinned down to a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor that had shorted.
> >>>>> My guess is this might be a repeat, albeit with solid capacitors.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for the observations about the effective impedance of the anti-static bag, remember this was built into a case before being removed for testing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, eBuyer hav accepted the evidence presented and are collecting the motherboard tomorrow. It will be towards the end of next week before I receive a replacement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I must say, they have always been good to deal with.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alan
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This is why I deal with a local shop for motherboards.
> >>>> The 30 day replacement interval. You get enough time to test.
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Too late for that. Anyway I don't have a local shop.
> >>> I received a message today saying eBuyer's engineers tested the motherboard. Thery say it is fine and shoulkd arrive back tomorrow.
> >>>
> >>> They are collecting the processor on Thursday.
> >>> I didn't consider the DRAM because even without it, the POST should beep and it didn't.
> >>> Watch this (miserable) space.
> >>>
> >>> Alan
> >>
> >> If the motherboard was good, then you should have been
> >> able to turn on your power supply with it and have
> >> the fans spin.
> >>
> >> It's one thing to have the fans spin, and it's another
> >> to get a system to start. To start, RESET must be de-asserted
> >> (you can't be leaning on the reset button). But the other
> >> indicator, is "POWER_GOOD", which the power supply sends
> >> to the motherboard. The motherboard also has its own converters
> >> that have a status signal. When all the power sources signal
> >> they have started OK, that's when the processor is allowed to
> >> jump to the starting vector.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> > The fans flicked but that is all. I assumed the power supply wasat fault, bought another and proved I was wrong. The motherboard has come back, said to be OK. The processor goes off Thursday.
> >
> > I assumed that RAM isn't needed just to a beep from the piezoelectric speaker.
> > Surely one of tests is to check if RAM is present.
> > I hope I'm correct.
> >
> > Alan
>
> If the processor is good and there is no RAM, you get three beeps.
>
> This assumes the cabinet speaker is connected to the SPKR header
> (or, that the motherboard has a piezoelectric element onboard).
>
> In fact, I used that test on my last build. For fun. Fired up
> with no RAM, just to make it beep. That's because I have no
> Port 80 POST card for testing.
>
> Paul

That's what I thought I remembered.
DPD collected the CPU an hour ago.
I look forward to redciving the results of the tests.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

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