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computers / alt.os.linux.mint / Re: Mint 21.3 beta

SubjectAuthor
* Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
+* Re: Mint 21.3 betaBig Al
|`* Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
| `- Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
+* Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
|+- Re: Mint 21.3 betajeorge
|`- Re: Mint 21.3 betaPaul
`* Re: Mint 21.3 betaGordon
 `* Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
  `* Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
   `* Re: Mint 21.3 betapinnerite
    `- Re: Mint 21.3 betaPaul

1
Mint 21.3 beta

<20240105194113.ddf80aecf882dc6ce294a216@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41:13 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41 UTC

Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.

I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:

After updating and installing several programs:

1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
still requests one on boot-up.
3) None of the panel icons "work".

If there is solution to the above, please let me know.

I shall carry on with the configuration.

Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?

Have a good weekend.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<un9svs$9rl8$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ala...@invalid.com (Big Al)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 16:40:12 -0500
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 by: Big Al - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:40 UTC

On 1/5/24 02:41 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>
> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>
> After updating and installing several programs:
>
> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> still requests one on boot-up.
> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>
> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>
> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>
> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
How did you install it? Did you overwrite 20.x or did you boot from cd/usb and do a full wipe and format?

--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<20240105214017.409f1bc3520bc6a1c6ae4176@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:40:17 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pinnerite - Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:40 UTC

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41:13 +0000
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>
> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>
> After updating and installing several programs:
>
> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> still requests one on boot-up.
> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>
> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>
> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>
> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
> Alan
>

1) and 3) now resolved but 2) is still an irritant!

AS

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

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From: some...@invalid.invalid (jeorge)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 18:05:13 -0700
Organization: Ministry of Madness
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 by: jeorge - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 01:05 UTC

On 1/5/24 2:40 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41:13 +0000
> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
>> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>>
>> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
>> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>>
>> After updating and installing several programs:
>>
>> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
>> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
>> still requests one on boot-up.
>> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>>
>> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>>
>> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>>
>> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>>
>> Have a good weekend.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>
> 1) and 3) now resolved but 2) is still an irritant!
>

I usually have to reset the panel after an upgrade.

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 21:32:44 -0500
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 by: Paul - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 02:32 UTC

On 1/5/2024 4:40 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 19:41:13 +0000
> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
>> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>>
>> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
>> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>>
>> After updating and installing several programs:
>>
>> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
>> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
>> still requests one on boot-up.
>> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>>
>> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>>
>> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>>
>> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>>
>> Have a good weekend.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>
> 1) and 3) now resolved but 2) is still an irritant!
>
> AS
>

"Enabling Auto Login"

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=286267

/etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf

[Seat:*]
autologin-user=alan

But also available graphically.

An inaccessible home directory is also apparently
a contributing factor.

Paul

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 11:21:46 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 11:21 UTC

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 16:40:12 -0500
Big Al <alan@invalid.com> wrote:

> On 1/5/24 02:41 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> > Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> > and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
> >
> > I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> > cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
> >
> > After updating and installing several programs:
> >
> > 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> > 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> > still requests one on boot-up.
> > 3) None of the panel icons "work".
> >
> > If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
> >
> > I shall carry on with the configuration.
> >
> > Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
> >
> > Have a good weekend.
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> How did you install it? Did you overwrite 20.x or did you boot from cd/usb and do a full wipe and format?
>
> --
> Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
> Al
>

Unintentional full wioe. :(

It now only requires a pasword after a screen save.
Well it did. Just fixed it.
All three problems have gone away.
Still got a couple of challenges but just the usual stuff.

Thanks everyone.

Alan

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<20240106193609.cf56ef6e76d81b44a90b8d7c@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2024 19:36:09 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Sat, 6 Jan 2024 19:36 UTC

You are not going to believe this.
I had begun populating the /home/mythtv directory with recordings from
another machine when I ran out of space.

How? The root directory suddenly had 0 space.
I had not repartitioned the drive when I installed 21.3 but the
partitions were reformatted. Nothing I did could explain the lack of
space. Thec partitioning is:

sda 1.8TB
sda1 25.6Gb /
sda2 1kb
sda3 1.8Tb (/home but it lsblk doesn't say so but it should)
sda5 7.96Gb swap

I think I will have to reinstall and make sda1 28Gb like my other
machines.

Still the hardware is working beautifully.
Amazing what a vacuuming and a cheap cpu fan will achieve.
I had bought the fan just before we had to pack up and move and only
just got to fit it. Heigh ho.

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

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From: Gor...@leaf.net.nz (Gordon)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: 7 Jan 2024 02:38:54 GMT
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 by: Gordon - Sun, 7 Jan 2024 02:38 UTC

On 2024-01-05, pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>
> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:

Couple of points

1) 21.3 should be out of beta in a few days (See Clems monthly report.
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4619

As you are at 21.3 beta I would expect that updating will have you arriving
at 21.3 as has been the case in the past.

2) Upgrading from 20.x to 21.3 is a "major" leap. Some times there are some
hoops to go through. However they (the hoops) as getting fewer. Mint is
working on making it as painless as possible.

https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-21.html

In the past I found the upgrade instructions well worthwhile the time
invested in reading them.

>
> After updating and installing several programs:
>
> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> still requests one on boot-up.
> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>
> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>
> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>
> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:05:34 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:05 UTC

On 7 Jan 2024 02:38:54 GMT
Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

> On 2024-01-05, pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> > and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
> >
> > I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> > cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>
> Couple of points
>
> 1) 21.3 should be out of beta in a few days (See Clems monthly report.
> https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4619
>
> As you are at 21.3 beta I would expect that updating will have you arriving
> at 21.3 as has been the case in the past.
>
> 2) Upgrading from 20.x to 21.3 is a "major" leap. Some times there are some
> hoops to go through. However they (the hoops) as getting fewer. Mint is
> working on making it as painless as possible.
>
> https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-21.html
>
> In the past I found the upgrade instructions well worthwhile the time
> invested in reading them.
>

Thank you. I will take advantage of that with my other machines.

I have bookmarked the link.

> >
> > After updating and installing several programs:
> >
> > 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> > 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> > still requests one on boot-up.
> > 3) None of the panel icons "work".
> >
> > If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
> >
> > I shall carry on with the configuration.
> >
> > Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
> >
> > Have a good weekend.
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<20240108185002.39722fa1b347ff08bb15654e@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:50:02 +0000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: pinnerite - Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:50 UTC

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:05:34 +0000
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 Jan 2024 02:38:54 GMT
> Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > On 2024-01-05, pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> > > and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
> > >
> > > I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> > > cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
> >
> > Couple of points
> >
> > 1) 21.3 should be out of beta in a few days (See Clems monthly report.
> > https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4619
> >
> > As you are at 21.3 beta I would expect that updating will have you arriving
> > at 21.3 as has been the case in the past.
> >
> > 2) Upgrading from 20.x to 21.3 is a "major" leap. Some times there are some
> > hoops to go through. However they (the hoops) as getting fewer. Mint is
> > working on making it as painless as possible.
> >
> > https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-21.html
> >
> > In the past I found the upgrade instructions well worthwhile the time
> > invested in reading them.
> >
>
> Thank you. I will take advantage of that with my other machines.
>
> I have bookmarked the link.
>
> > >
> > > After updating and installing several programs:
> > >
> > > 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> > > 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> > > still requests one on boot-up.
> > > 3) None of the panel icons "work".
> > >
> > > If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
> > >
> > > I shall carry on with the configuration.
> > >
> > > Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
> > >
> > > Have a good weekend.
> > >
> > > Alan

The system was working beautifully, even the 10.1 inch monitor was coaxed into working.
I downloaded the updates and rebooted. Now the damn monitor does not show anything.
I will plug in a real one tomorrow and try again.

Alan

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<20240109171540.86fc973718037822fc404a4b@gmail.com>

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From: pinner...@gmail.com (pinnerite)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:15:40 +0000
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 by: pinnerite - Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:15 UTC

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:50:02 +0000
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:05:34 +0000
> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 7 Jan 2024 02:38:54 GMT
> > Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2024-01-05, pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
> > > > and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
> > > >
> > > > I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
> > > > cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
> > >
> > > Couple of points
> > >
> > > 1) 21.3 should be out of beta in a few days (See Clems monthly report.
> > > https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4619
> > >
> > > As you are at 21.3 beta I would expect that updating will have you arriving
> > > at 21.3 as has been the case in the past.
> > >
> > > 2) Upgrading from 20.x to 21.3 is a "major" leap. Some times there are some
> > > hoops to go through. However they (the hoops) as getting fewer. Mint is
> > > working on making it as painless as possible.
> > >
> > > https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-21.html
> > >
> > > In the past I found the upgrade instructions well worthwhile the time
> > > invested in reading them.
> > >
> >
> > Thank you. I will take advantage of that with my other machines.
> >
> > I have bookmarked the link.
> >
> > > >
> > > > After updating and installing several programs:
> > > >
> > > > 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
> > > > 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
> > > > still requests one on boot-up.
> > > > 3) None of the panel icons "work".
> > > >
> > > > If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
> > > >
> > > > I shall carry on with the configuration.
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
> > > >
> > > > Have a good weekend.
> > > >
> > > > Alan
>
> The system was working beautifully, even the 10.1 inch monitor was coaxed into working.
> I downloaded the updates and rebooted. Now the damn monitor does not show anything.
> I will plug in a real one tomorrow and try again.
>

Even with a regular 23 inch monitor it is flakey.
It sometimes boots up on its hard drive but not on a memory stick, stopping halfway.
I will try a knoppix live DVD tomorrow and run some drive tests before trying Mint 21.3 from the hard drive.

At one point when it was up, I couldn't drive the TV via an HDMI cable but could get a MythTV icon for items such as music and DVDs (I think) that I don't use via the LAN.

The HDMI problem is huge! This is meant to be an HTPC. :(

--
Linux Mint 21.1 kernel version 5.15.0-91-generic Cinnamon 5.6.8
AMD Phenom II x4 955 CPU 16Gb Dram 2TB Barracuda

Re: Mint 21.3 beta

<unkpvb$27491$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7398&group=alt.os.linux.mint#7398

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mint
Subject: Re: Mint 21.3 beta
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 19:56:11 -0500
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 by: Paul - Wed, 10 Jan 2024 00:56 UTC

On 1/9/2024 12:15 PM, pinnerite wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 18:50:02 +0000
> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:05:34 +0000
>> pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2024 02:38:54 GMT
>>> Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-01-05, pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Just over 2.5 years ago I boxed up my home-built HTPC running Mint 20.x
>>>>> and moved home. I couldn't restore it until today.
>>>>>
>>>>> I decided to start again by installing a beta copy of Mint 21.3 and
>>>>> cope with the fallout. It came sooner than I expected:
>>>>
>>>> Couple of points
>>>>
>>>> 1) 21.3 should be out of beta in a few days (See Clems monthly report.
>>>> https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4619
>>>>
>>>> As you are at 21.3 beta I would expect that updating will have you arriving
>>>> at 21.3 as has been the case in the past.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Upgrading from 20.x to 21.3 is a "major" leap. Some times there are some
>>>> hoops to go through. However they (the hoops) as getting fewer. Mint is
>>>> working on making it as painless as possible.
>>>>
>>>> https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-21.html
>>>>
>>>> In the past I found the upgrade instructions well worthwhile the time
>>>> invested in reading them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. I will take advantage of that with my other machines.
>>>
>>> I have bookmarked the link.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After updating and installing several programs:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The start menu will no longer pop up.
>>>>> 2) On installation I set the log-in for "no password required" but it
>>>>> still requests one on boot-up.
>>>>> 3) None of the panel icons "work".
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is solution to the above, please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I shall carry on with the configuration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wondering, should I report this somewhere?
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a good weekend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan
>>
>> The system was working beautifully, even the 10.1 inch monitor was coaxed into working.
>> I downloaded the updates and rebooted. Now the damn monitor does not show anything.
>> I will plug in a real one tomorrow and try again.
>>
>
> Even with a regular 23 inch monitor it is flakey.
> It sometimes boots up on its hard drive but not on a memory stick, stopping halfway.
> I will try a knoppix live DVD tomorrow and run some drive tests before trying Mint 21.3 from the hard drive.
>
> At one point when it was up, I couldn't drive the TV via an HDMI cable but could get a MythTV icon for items such as music and DVDs (I think) that I don't use via the LAN.
>
> The HDMI problem is huge! This is meant to be an HTPC. :(

I don't know what resolution you're working at, but a
previous thread, I recommended to a user, that they
convert the DisplayPort output of the machine giving
them trouble, using an "active" DP to HDMI converter.
For 1920x1080, such an "active" converter might be $20.
There was a time, when items like that were $100.

The "passive" converters are just two connectors in a
housing, and you can tell from the construction, that
no conversion chip is inside. Might be $10 for those.

The $20 conversion chip does a good job of making an HDMI signal.

That's my recommended solution.

Passive DisplayPort converters work on connectors labeled "DP++".
That is a standard, where the DisplayPort, also happens to make
an HDMI signal, and using the passive adapter dongle, you can
place an HDMI connector on the end of the cable, and an HDMI
TV set will recognize the signal.

Whereas the vanilla DisplayPort (maybe fifteen years ago), it
has no HDMI signal, and placing a passive on it won't work. Only
an active converter works in that case. Those do not have "DP++"
labeling next to the connector. They might say "DP".

So I bought an Active converter, because I had an old computer.

It turns out, I've been using that adapter more to fix monitor
problems, than anything else. The story then, has a happy ending.
The adapter was not wasted on the crusty old computer.

The active adapter is perfectly happy to convert the DP signal
on the DP++ connector, into a valid HDMI signal.

You can see this one, isn't quite good enough. It's only 4K30p
and not 4K60p . At high resolutions, the signal is encrypted,
and that is when you need to research the various crypto standards
involved. The buzzword compliance issues will waste half your evening.
It has HDCP 1.4, but it also has some other flavor too.

https://www.startech.com/en-ca/display-video-adapters/dp2hd4ks

HDCP 1.4

So if you have a 4K monitor, you'd want a 4K60p one at least.
And the theory there, is a DP to HDMI path will work, when the
HDMI path by itself does not work.

It's a good thing the industry tests all their stuff. Right ?

Paul

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