Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Wally J wrote:
>
> > I would simply ask both to confirm when they report their test results
> > whether or not they're using the Windows PC (which I presume they are).
>
> Win11
> with Settings > Privacy&Security > LocationService turned OFF
> Firefox with a private browsing tab
> "fresh" IP addr which AFAIR I've not used previously for outbound
> connections
> same windows user as my day-to-day
>
> In the past, signing-out of google was sufficient for maps to forget (or
> pretend it had?) your location, now it just seems to give a "general area"
>
> If I click on the "compass" location button, it says has no permission
> to access location ... I had blocked location permission in firefox, if
> I temporarily enable that an reload it does get accurate location, even
> when not logged in to google.
>
> So browser is somehow getting location from windows, even though windows
> location service is off ... at least firefox is "obeying" the setting.

I did a similar test. In Edge, no Google login. When I use the
'compass' location button and allow the Location Permission in the
*browser*, the location is accurate within some 50 metre (many
multi-level buildings around, ours is eight-level).

Funny thing is, when I also turned the *Windows* Location services on,
the accuracy became a bit *worse*, probably another 10-20 metre (No, I'm
not going to check! It's raining! :-)). But later, I could not reproduce
this worse accuracy.

Anyway, like you say in another response, the location probably comes
from WiFi triangulation (this laptop only has Wi-Fi, no hardwired LAN
connection).

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> When I use the
> 'compass' location button and allow the Location Permission in the
> browser, the location is accurate within some 50 metre

Is this still on your linux pc, or windows?
If the latter, is location service enabled?

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Funny thing is, when I also turned theWindows Location services on

I should have kept reading, and I was probably confusing you with Robin
in terms of linux?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> > Funny thing is, when I also turned theWindows Location services on
>
> I should have kept reading, and I was probably confusing you with Robin
> in terms of linux?

Yes. I use Windows (11) (with some 'Linux' (actually GNU) stuff on
top, but that's not relevant).

Carlos (not Robin, for some reason 'robin' is in his e-mail address
(perhaps last name?)) indeed mostly uses Linux.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

>> One thing I could not, for the life of me figure out then, and now, is how
>> you managed to change your home router's MAC (BSSID) address
>
> At that time my router was running openWRT so I could have overridden
> the hardware MAC address, but don't actually think I did.

Thanks for confirming, as I'm well aware all the platforms (Windows, Linux
& Android) can change "their" connecting MAC address - but the one MAC
address that is outward facing is the one in the home router itself.

I'm aware there is a CLI on every router but I don't know (yet) of any
command that will clone/spoof/change the hard-coded outward facing MAC.

> I have a feeling that the .json file I used contained some of my
> neighbours' BSSIDs rather than my own, however I'm using a different
> router now.

The problem with privacy from Google is in two ways (both because most
people are stupid as I said back in 2016) that we have to protect against.

1. People who drive by our homes upload to Google our broadcast information
2. People next door broadcast their information (which is at our location)

It wasn't so bad when Google didn't force "precise location" scanning.

But now that Google forces that on smartphones, we're doomed as a result
unless we can figure out a way to prevent this from happening to us.

On this 27 Oct 2023 15:15:39 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>>> Funny thing is, when I also turned theWindows Location services on
>>
>> I should have kept reading, and I was probably confusing you with Robin
>> in terms of linux?
>
> Yes. I use Windows (11) (with some 'Linux' (actually GNU) stuff on
> top, but that's not relevant).
>
> Carlos (not Robin, for some reason 'robin' is in his e-mail address
> (perhaps last name?)) indeed mostly uses Linux.

Windows is probably using one of the databases to get the precise location.
They triangulate from nearby wifi access points that are uploaded to it.

Is Windows using their own wifi access point database or that of google's?

Charlie wrote:

> Windows is probably using one of the databases to get the precise location.
> They triangulate from nearby wifi access points that are uploaded to it.

not if the location service is OFF, they shouldn't.

> Is Windows using their own wifi access point database or that of google's?

I think MS have their own.

There are two things going on, for me ...

When the Windows location service is on, my powershell script can get
its precise location (I will hook up via ethernet to check whether it is
wifi allowing that) and when the service is off, my script can't get its
location, so far so good.

But regardless of whether the location service is on or off, google maps
can get a rough location 300m away when the browser is blocking location
access, or a precise location if the browser is set to allow location
access, so where does the browser get it from?

I would be very surprised if firefox can technically see sufficient
wifi details enough for it to geolocate itself, other than by IP addr,
but as mentioned most geo databases are 150+km away from my true
location ... so what is going on?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
[...]

> But regardless of whether the location service is on or off, google maps
> can get a rough location 300m away when the browser is blocking location
> access, or a precise location if the browser is set to allow location
> access, so where does the browser get it from?

When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
(rough) *location*, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
your location?

In my (Edge) case with the browser blocking location access, I just
get the map around my location, but no 'Your location' icon (blue dot
with white circle and light-grey circle).

When I *do* allow Location in Edge, I *do* get the blue-dot ('Your
location') icon (at about 50 metre off).

> I would be very surprised if firefox can technically see sufficient
> wifi details enough for it to geolocate itself, other than by IP addr,
> but as mentioned most geo databases are 150+km away from my true
> location ... so what is going on?

Indeed. Edge could be sneaky and ask Windows, despite the Windows
'Location services' being off. But Firefox should not be able to do such
sneaky stuff.

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
> (rough)location, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
> your location?

I get a blue dot, if I had to guess it's at the geographical centre of
the village, if I search for the village name, it centres on the same point.

Andy Burns wrote:

> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>>    When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
>> (rough)location, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
>> your location?
>
> I get a blue dot, if I had to guess it's at the geographical centre of
> the village, if I search for the village name, it centres on the same
> point.

Sorry, I was logged-in to google that time. If I logout and refresh, it
centres on the same place, but no blue dot.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
> > Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >
> >>    When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
> >> (rough)location, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
> >> your location?
> >
> > I get a blue dot, if I had to guess it's at the geographical centre of
> > the village, if I search for the village name, it centres on the same
> > point.
>
> Sorry, I was logged-in to google that time. If I logout and refresh, it
> centres on the same place, but no blue dot.

Thanks. So the same for you in Firefox as for me in Edge.

You have got to be the most successful troll I have ever seen. I can't
even begin to killfile this stuff. But your count group is weird.

I mean, clearly it has nothing to do with satellite navigation, even
though the header mentions GPS. That is: IP geolocation has absolutely
*nothing* to do with satellite navigation. Very clever.

Now could you please go away, Arlen? I'm getting sick of deleting your
messages, but more than that, the troll feeding frenzy that follows them.

Could y'all please stop fattening this guy up?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote

> Now could you please go away,

If you can't see how your GPS location is part of the upload to Google's
database, and which is likely what they're using, then you're an idiot.

But to your point Zaghadka, you're one of the biggest trolls out there.
When have _you_ ever added even a single iota of on-topic value Zaghadka?
*The answer is you have _never_ added any value, Zaghadka*

Also the answer is you can't ever add any value, Zaghadka.

Want facts?

You posted twice, for example, to this thread, subtracting value each time.
Think about that before you claim everyone else is a troll except for you.

Please do not post further to this thread unless you can add topical value.

On this 27 Oct 2023 19:10:28 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>>>> �� When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
>>>> (rough)location, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
>>>> your location?
>>>
>>> I get a blue dot, if I had to guess it's at the geographical centre of
>>> the village, if I search for the village name, it centres on the same
>>> point.
>>
>> Sorry, I was logged-in to google that time. If I logout and refresh, it
>> centres on the same place, but no blue dot.
>
> Thanks. So the same for you in Firefox as for me in Edge.

Do you think Firefox & Edge are getting the location from the nearby WiFi
access points that the computer can see or from an IP address geolookup?

On 2023-10-30 02:07, Charlie wrote:
> On this 27 Oct 2023 19:10:28 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>>>>> �� When the browser is blocking location access, do you get an actual
>>>>> (rough)location, or just a map which 'happens' to be somewhere around
>>>>> your location?
>>>>
>>>> I get a blue dot, if I had to guess it's at the geographical centre
>>>> of the village, if I search for the village name, it centres on the
>>>> same point.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I was logged-in to google that time.  If I logout and refresh,
>>> it centres on the same place, but no blue dot.
>>
>>   Thanks. So the same for you in Firefox as for me in Edge.
>
> Do you think Firefox & Edge are getting the location from the nearby WiFi
> access points that the computer can see or from an IP address geolookup?

I don't think that Firefox interrogates the system to find out nearby
APs, but then, it is opensource so "anybody" can go read the source and
find out ;-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 20:24:46 -0400, Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam>
wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>> Now could you please go away,
>
>If you can't see how your GPS location is part of the upload to Google's
>database, and which is likely what they're using,
>

Goalposts moved. Now it's about Google and not Malibu Media? It's really
about satnav and not IP geolocation? Smooth.

>then you're an idiot.

Ah, ad hominem insults. The last resort of a troll on the ropes.

Good luck, guy. Please stop nym-shifting so I can properly ignore you.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Charlie wrote:

> Do you think Firefox & Edge are getting the location from the nearby WiFi
> access points that the computer can see or from an IP address geolookup?

I don't see how firefox (running as a non-admin user) could gather
enough information (list of visible SSIDs with signal strengths) to
allow triangulation, I suppose the source code could be inspected, but
easier to check by connecting a USB ethernet dongle and disabling wifi.

I suppose Microsoft *could* have provided a backdoor method for Edge to
access the Windows Location Service, but I have that service stopped,
and even running as an admin, my powershell can't retrieve the geolocation.

Yet still google maps, with location disabled in windows, without being
logged-in to google, and with a fresh IP address, knows what village I'm
in. I haven't yet created a fresh Windows user.

Logically it's likely to be locating by IP addr, but my range of eight
static IP addrs are assigned from an ISP subnet of 2048 addrs, the
allocation to me isn't recorded in the ripe.net database, so there
should be no way for anyone outside my ISP to know whether the
previously unused IP is assigned to me, my neighbour or someone hundreds
of miles away.

Andy,

> I don't see how firefox (running as a non-admin user) could gather enough
> information (list of visible SSIDs with signal strengths)

Don't forget the names the users assign to their WiFi connections. Have
enough of them and you do not even need signal strength (which, by the way,
could give wrong readings, depending on whats inbetween you and the access
point)

>Yet still google maps ... knows what village I'm in
....
> Logically it's likely to be locating by IP addr, but my range of eight
> static IP addrs are assigned from an ISP subnet of 2048 addrs, the
> allocation to me isn't recorded in the ripe.net database, so there should
> be no way for anyone outside my ISP to know whether the previously unused
> IP is assigned to me, my neighbour or someone hundreds of miles away.

Have you ever tried to route a random IP thru a switch ? It isn't as easy
as you think you know. Normally an ISP will create subnets within its own
subnet, just to be able to route a bunch of them to where its split up into
its seperate to-the-home connections.

IOW, besides that the ISPs servicing area is pretty-much known, experiences
over time could give Google a good idea which sub-subnet is servicing a
particular area.

For example, I've got internet from an ISP which services a rather large
part of my country (places hundreds of kilometers apart). Still, Google
pinpoints my city, and gives a good shot to the zipcode area within it - and
shows me it every time I do a search.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

R.Wieser wrote:

> Have you ever tried to route a random IP thru a switch ? It isn't as easy
> as you think you know.

I eat, sleep and breathe routers, switches, bridges and tunnels.

> Normally an ISP will create subnets within its own
> subnet, just to be able to route a bunch of them to where its split up into
> its seperate to-the-home connections.

But that's not visible to firefox or google, the subnet advertising my
measly block of IP addrs to the world is a /15

> IOW, besides that the ISPs servicing area is pretty-much known

UK-wide in my ISP's case, it's not a local/regional "cable" ISP, I could
move to the other end of the country and retain the same IPs.

> experiences
> over time could give Google a good idea which sub-subnet is servicing a
> particular area.
>
> For example, I've got internet from an ISP which services a rather large
> part of my country (places hundreds of kilometers apart). Still, Google
> pinpoints my city, and gives a good shot to the zipcode area within it - and
> shows me it every time I do a search.

Have you tried to see if you can stop them doing that?

Andy,

> I eat, sleep and breathe routers, switches, bridges and tunnels.

Good to know that, when I ever have problems with it I now know who to call.
:-)

> But that's not visible to firefox or google, the subnet advertising my
> measly block of IP addrs to the world is a /15

Visible ? No. Possible to know which IP belongs to which (general) area ?
Certainly. Mind you, *you* might never have seen a certain IP and think its
random, but as I tried to explain, its rather possible its locked to a
certain area. Its endpoint location might change, but not over much.

Your "measily subnet" is a part of one of your ISPs subnets. Google doesn't
need to know how many lines you have, just where the (ISP) subnet you have a
few lines from lies.

> UK-wide in my ISP's case, it's not a local/regional "cable" ISP, I could
> move to the other end of the country and retain the same IPs.

:-) That makes it even easier. When you move Google will mis-locate you a
while, but will learn from other bits of data (among others your search
history) where you most likely are.

And thats apart from the more obvious stuff, like providing your location
information at sites which have google stuff running (such as
google-analytics).

>> For example, I've got internet from an ISP which services a rather large
>> part of my country (places hundreds of kilometers apart). Still, Google
>> pinpoints my city, and gives a good shot to the zipcode area within it -
>> and
>> shows me it every time I do a search.
>
> Have you tried to see if you can stop them doing that?

Thats the thing : You *can't* stop them doing it, as you need to provide an
IP to be able to get responses to your requests. And that IP is all they
need.

The only thing you can do is to (try to) throw them off your track by only
connecting to the internet using stuff like VPNs and TOR.

But neither will stop spy pixels and scripts. Its way too easy to have a
cached image boobytrapped with some kind of ID, or a bit of JS trying to
"fingerprint" your 'puter (causing you to be trackable). :-(

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

On this Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:09:45 +0100, R.Wieser wrote:

>>> For example, I've got internet from an ISP which services a rather large
>>> part of my country (places hundreds of kilometers apart). Still, Google
>>> pinpoints my city, and gives a good shot to the zipcode area within it -
>>> and
>>> shows me it every time I do a search.
>>
>> Have you tried to see if you can stop them doing that?
>
> Thats the thing : You *can't* stop them doing it, as you need to provide an
> IP to be able to get responses to your requests. And that IP is all they
> need.

Could it be simply that passing phones have already uploaded Andy's access
point unique information and that of every one of Andy's nearby neighbors?

Do you think Firefox & Edge are getting that location from that nearby WiFi
access point database with a simple IP address lookup in those AP tables?

Charlie wrote:

> Could it be simply that passing phones have already uploaded Andy's access
> point unique information and that of every one of Andy's nearby neighbors?

It is *certain* that my own phone has done that, as well as passing
phones from strangers/neighbours, google certainly know where I live,
but that's not the issue.

> Do you think Firefox & Edge are getting that location from that nearby WiFi
> access point database with a simple IP address lookup in those AP tables?

The browser can get location information from the operating system
(if/when I enable it in the operating system) and a webpage can get
location information from the browser (if i allow it in the browser).