Humans according to decibel scale can hear a wide spectrum of volumes.

I found the windows volume bar lacking in this regards.

Steps of 0 to 100 or not enough.

This should be more like 0 to 1000 or so,

Or at least 0 to 200

Or 0 to 300.

Consider making this bar vertically longer for more precission !

Without this new feature I cannot set my denon receiver to -30 db which is probably better, currently it stuck on -20 db.

Though if I would set it on -30 db it would be even softer which is weird, cause sometimes I want it a bit louder.

Strange stuff these volume bars.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

P.S.: Next time I am in windows 11 virtual machine I will try to fill feedback report on windows 11 maybe it can still be integrated/improved into there.

There should be at the very least a registry option to increase the length and precision of the volume bar, perhaps it already exists ?

On 1/12/2022 9:55 PM, skybuck2000 wrote:
> Humans according to decibel scale can hear a wide spectrum of volumes.
>
> I found the windows volume bar lacking in this regards.
>
> Steps of 0 to 100 or not enough.
>
> This should be more like 0 to 1000 or so,
>
> Or at least 0 to 200
>
> Or 0 to 300.
>
> Consider making this bar vertically longer for more precission !
>
> Without this new feature I cannot set my denon receiver to -30 db which is probably better, currently it stuck on -20 db.
>
> Though if I would set it on -30 db it would be even softer which is weird, cause sometimes I want it a bit louder.
>
> Strange stuff these volume bars.
>
> Bye for now,
> Skybuck.
>
> P.S.: Next time I am in windows 11 virtual machine I will try to fill feedback report on windows 11 maybe it can still be integrated/improved into there.
>
> There should be at the very least a registry option to increase the length and precision of the volume bar, perhaps it already exists ?
>

Think about the hardware for a moment.

The gain controls are digital and are in 1.5dB steps.

If the control provided 30dB total range, there would be
20 steps max. If the control provided 60dB total range,
the control would need only 40 steps max.

The hardware is quite finite, and making the control
as tall as a skyscraper, does not help with that :-)

If the control was a "pure analog function", used
64 bit numbers to control potentiometers inside the
hardware, I agree a taller control would be more precise.
But as long as the step size is determined by the ladder
network implementation inside the chip, the hardware
control only has "so many notches". And pretending
there is more control than is actually present, is
counterproductive.

Usually, if you pull the datasheet for your HDAudio
chip, it will give details on how the gain controls
work. And what the step size is.

If you want to do hardware experiments, use Audacity,
run a fixed amplitude sine wave with the generator
function, then run that out through LineOut while
you monitor the voltage with a DMM (digital multimeter
set to AC volts). As you move the slider in Windows,
discrete voltage values should come out. This should
lead you to the conclusion, as to how many voltage
steps are available via the digital control. Note,
in the following, I did not make 1.5dB steps. I only
intended to show how discrete (unchangeable) voltage
levels come out. By taking the ratio of them, doing
log10 and so on, you can work out the dB stepsize.

1.00V \___ take ratios to determine dB_stepsize
1.10V /
1.20V <=== Control at 100%

Paul

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 2:35:07 PM UTC+1, Paul wrote:
> On 1/12/2022 9:55 PM, skybuck2000 wrote:
> > Humans according to decibel scale can hear a wide spectrum of volumes.
> >
> > I found the windows volume bar lacking in this regards.
> >
> > Steps of 0 to 100 or not enough.
> >
> > This should be more like 0 to 1000 or so,
> >
> > Or at least 0 to 200
> >
> > Or 0 to 300.
> >
> > Consider making this bar vertically longer for more precission !
> >
> > Without this new feature I cannot set my denon receiver to -30 db which is probably better, currently it stuck on -20 db.
> >
> > Though if I would set it on -30 db it would be even softer which is weird, cause sometimes I want it a bit louder.
> >
> > Strange stuff these volume bars.
> >
> > Bye for now,
> > Skybuck.
> >
> > P.S.: Next time I am in windows 11 virtual machine I will try to fill feedback report on windows 11 maybe it can still be integrated/improved into there.
> >
> > There should be at the very least a registry option to increase the length and precision of the volume bar, perhaps it already exists ?
> >
> Think about the hardware for a moment.
>
> The gain controls are digital and are in 1.5dB steps.
>
> If the control provided 30dB total range, there would be
> 20 steps max. If the control provided 60dB total range,
> the control would need only 40 steps max.
>
> The hardware is quite finite, and making the control
> as tall as a skyscraper, does not help with that :-)
>
> If the control was a "pure analog function", used
> 64 bit numbers to control potentiometers inside the
> hardware, I agree a taller control would be more precise.
> But as long as the step size is determined by the ladder
> network implementation inside the chip, the hardware
> control only has "so many notches". And pretending
> there is more control than is actually present, is
> counterproductive.
>
> Usually, if you pull the datasheet for your HDAudio
> chip, it will give details on how the gain controls
> work. And what the step size is.
>
> If you want to do hardware experiments, use Audacity,
> run a fixed amplitude sine wave with the generator
> function, then run that out through LineOut while
> you monitor the voltage with a DMM (digital multimeter
> set to AC volts). As you move the slider in Windows,
> discrete voltage values should come out. This should
> lead you to the conclusion, as to how many voltage
> steps are available via the digital control. Note,
> in the following, I did not make 1.5dB steps. I only
> intended to show how discrete (unchangeable) voltage
> levels come out. By taking the ratio of them, doing
> log10 and so on, you can work out the dB stepsize.
>
> 1.00V \___ take ratios to determine dB_stepsize
> 1.10V /
> 1.20V <=== Control at 100%
>
> Paul

Sounds to me like PC <-> Receiver
or

PC <-- HDMI --> Receiver

Needs a new protocol or protocol extension for volume control !

I am pretty sure my receiver can blast my ears of if it wants but currently it's limited somehow.

Windows goes from 0 to 100%.

I am not sure what 0 is supposed to represent... probably -20 db which is what the receiver is set at.

But what the fuck is 100% ? Hmmm It's probably no where near 0 db... but also what about maybe 3 db ok maybe that is distortion/overloaded...

I just have this feeling the windows 0 to 100 procent range is not the entire receiver -20 db to 0 range.

And I can easily prove that by simply setting the receiver to -30 db or even lower.

And when I set windows to max... it will be a lot quiter !

So no advanced voltage meter method needed.

Just ears, listening and logic ! ;)

But ok to figure out steps... that was your posting about...

My complaint right now is a new point as well which is related to it... I want to be able to use the entire range of volume/output levels of my receiver/speakers as far as it's safe/not blown up speakers. So here something isn't quite right... I could be wrong but the test with -30 or -40 I probably did that long ago and noticed it immediately... might test one more time just to be sure... maybe I do that tomorrow.

Now if this was an analog connection I can understand that somewhat then again maybe not cause volts is volts.

But this is HDMI protocol ?! Come on ! I expect something better from HDMI protocol and digital interfaces ?!

Perhaps overlooked ?! Weird stuff !

Also 1.5 db is a step waaaayyy to high... That is like 50% louder....

I am looking for more like actually 1% or 5% louder or 10%... see how inaccurate this is... 1.5 db ! BEHEHEHE.

Bye,
Skybuck.

Come to think of it there is another way to control volume output levels.

ASIO driver
and
ASIO in foobar settings.

And perhaps also DoD or something...

Once that setting is chosen ASIO and DoDp or whatever it was... then it becomes possible to set the output level directly with DB...

However this is ofcourse kinda strange cause the rest of the software don't work like that... and the ASIO driver makes switching music laggy/take long which sucks.

And I want to be able to set general windows audio/output levels.

Perhaps it's time Windows 11 volume setting/mixer gets updated with some kind of ASIO support ! ;)

and DB support ! ;)

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

Well foobar seems to do it in steps of 0.5 DB.

Can't say that I am truely happy or impressed with it... could have sworn I saw something more exact.

Apperently not...

What is DoP could you explain maybe you know what this ? I am not sure if this is usefull for my denon receiver.

I think I know what this is... it wraps DSD into PCM... hehe...

Hmmmm... not sure if denon receiver supports it but so far it played it when I experimented with it.

Pure DSD is a different story... does not seem to be supported.... though I could hear music very faintly... hmmm..

(Denon 1909 cannot do DSD I think but it can do DSD inside PCM=DoP that would be my understanding)

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

Some interesting links for DSD over PCM:

https://audiopraise.com/services/fpga-cores/dsd-over-pcm-dop/

https://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.YeBWmybvLbg

It mentioned USB but I think this also works over HDMI.

And wasn't it you Paul that said that HDMI is a bit like USB ? maybe even somewhat compatible in some shape or form ? Hmm...

At least the software protocol part of it ??? Maybe not though... USB was messy... at least the connection establishment part...

Bye,
Skybuck.

On 1/13/2022 11:27 AM, skybuck2000 wrote:

>
> Sounds to me like PC <-> Receiver
> or
>
> PC <-- HDMI --> Receiver
>
> Needs a new protocol or protocol extension for volume control !
>
> I am pretty sure my receiver can blast my ears of if it wants but currently it's limited somehow.
>
> Windows goes from 0 to 100%.
>
> I am not sure what 0 is supposed to represent... probably -20 db which is what the receiver is set at.
>
> But what the fuck is 100% ? Hmmm It's probably no where near 0 db... but also what about maybe 3 db ok maybe that is distortion/overloaded...
>
> I just have this feeling the windows 0 to 100 procent range is not the entire receiver -20 db to 0 range.
>
> And I can easily prove that by simply setting the receiver to -30 db or even lower.
>
> And when I set windows to max... it will be a lot quiter !
>
> So no advanced voltage meter method needed.
>
> Just ears, listening and logic ! ;)
>
> But ok to figure out steps... that was your posting about...
>
> My complaint right now is a new point as well which is related to it... I want to be able to use the entire range of volume/output levels of my receiver/speakers as far as it's safe/not blown up speakers. So here something isn't quite right... I could be wrong but the test with -30 or -40 I probably did that long ago and noticed it immediately... might test one more time just to be sure... maybe I do that tomorrow.
>
> Now if this was an analog connection I can understand that somewhat then again maybe not cause volts is volts.
>
> But this is HDMI protocol ?! Come on ! I expect something better from HDMI protocol and digital interfaces ?!
>
> Perhaps overlooked ?! Weird stuff !
>
> Also 1.5 db is a step waaaayyy to high... That is like 50% louder....
>
> I am looking for more like actually 1% or 5% louder or 10%... see how inaccurate this is... 1.5 db ! BEHEHEHE.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
>

1.5dB is the step size in HDAudio (analog audio) devices.

HDMI is a different animal.

Some standards, do not allow the PC end to modify the
volume. This might be the case with certain Dolby standards
for HDMI. The samples must come from the movie and be
sent straight to the AV Receiver.

But more commonly, HDMI on a PC uses the LPCM standard
(linear pulse code modulation). This just uses numbers for
the samples, and you can scale those numerically. That should
give a lot more levels when adjusting on the PC end. The movie
must have an LPCM audio track, or otherwise, the PC will need
some sort of Dolby Decoder to convert the movie soundtrack
to LPCM.

There is some problem with the recording level on commercial
movie DVDs. They seem to be recorded at -15dB or so, and what
little experiments I've tried, the sound track can be
pretty quiet. But I don't have any fancy kit like you've got.
All I've got is 2.0 stereo (no sub) and a couple watts of audio power per
speaker, and wired connections of the analog variety (1.5dB
gain step size). I don't have a "TV room with Dolby ATMOS"
in it or anything.

Paul

On 1/13/2022 11:46 AM, skybuck2000 wrote:
> Some interesting links for DSD over PCM:
>
> https://audiopraise.com/services/fpga-cores/dsd-over-pcm-dop/
>
> https://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.YeBWmybvLbg
>
> It mentioned USB but I think this also works over HDMI.
>
> And wasn't it you Paul that said that HDMI is a bit like USB ? maybe even somewhat compatible in some shape or form ? Hmm...
>
> At least the software protocol part of it ??? Maybe not though... USB was messy... at least the connection establishment part...
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
>

HDMI has audio multiplexed in with the video signal.

It is mostly send in a unidirectional manner.

But the HDMI does have a few more signals on it,
for some other tricks.

Whereas USB is bidirectional, and depending on
which version, is half duplex or full duplex.
USB3 for example, has separate TX and RX signals,
so packets can fly in both directions at the same time
(full duplex).

Paul

> HDMI has audio multiplexed in with the video
> signal.
>
> It is mostly send in a unidirectional manner.
>
> But the HDMI does have a few more signals on
> it,
> for some other tricks.
>
> Whereas USB is bidirectional, and depending on
> which version, is half duplex or full duplex.
> USB3 for example, has separate TX and RX
> signals,
> so packets can fly in both directions at the
> same time
> (full duplex).
>
> Paul

Don't encourage the daft twat.