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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

SubjectAuthor
* Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAnother Dave
+* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
|`- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAnother Dave
`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Theo
 `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAnother Dave
  `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |+* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleMichael Schwingen
   ||+* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |||+* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Theo
   ||||+* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |||||`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   ||||| `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |||||  +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |||||  |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |||||  | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |||||  `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleMike Scott
   |||||   `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |||||    +- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
   |||||    +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |||||    |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleCharlie Gibbs
   |||||    | `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleMartin Gregorie
   |||||    |  `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleCharlie Gibbs
   |||||    `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleMike Scott
   |||||     +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
   |||||     |`- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |||||     +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   |||||     |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleMike Scott
   |||||     | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleJim Jackson
   |||||     `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   ||||`- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Richard Kettlewell
   |||+- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Anssi Saari
   |||`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?scott
   ||| `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   ||`- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   | +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleJim Jackson
   | |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleAhem A Rivet's Shot
   | | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   | `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |  `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |   `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |    `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |     `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |      `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |       +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       | `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |       |  `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |   +- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |   `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |       |    +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |    |+- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |    |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |       |    | +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |    | |`- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?Bob Latham
   |       |    | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleBjörn Lundin
   |       |    `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |     `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipledruck
   |       |      +- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |       |      `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |       `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |       |        `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |         +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
   |       |         |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |         | +* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
   |       |         | |`* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleChris Elvidge
   |       |         | | +- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |         | | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipleThe Natural Philosopher
   |       |         | `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |       |         `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   |       |          `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiplemm0fmf
   |       |           `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple56d.1152
   |       `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152
   `* Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multipledruck
    `- Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?56d.1152

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Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<5afefdcaccbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 09:17:03 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: None
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 09:17 UTC

In article <uia9di$dimp$1@dont-email.me>,
mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 08:47, mm0fmf wrote:
> > On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:

> >> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the
> >> OS to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> >> with zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is
> >> some weird security measure to try to stop tinkering.
> >>
> >> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> >> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC
> >> copy it to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the
> >> correct place at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to
> >> prevent overwrite. I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's
> >> up next...
> >>
> >> Bob.
> >>
> >
> > Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is
> > unmanaged.

> Oh dear, replying to myself....

> As it's unmanaged by NetworkManagaer, then it's being left alone.
> That's just fine for what this PiZeroW is used for. I have another
> PiZeroW with the same release of software that I'll play with and
> will add wlan0 to NetworkManager's grasp so I can see what it does
> (if anything).

Further testing just, has revealed that bookworm doesn't seem to copy
the wpa_supplicant.conf file from boot partition at boot up like
bullseye did. The only way I've found to get that file there is via
ethernet and in my case samba.

Upon reboot, sometimes the wpa_supplicant.conf files gets overwritten
with zeros and sometimes not. I've no idea why.

Bob.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<sm0h6lznr6g.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>

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From: anssi.sa...@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi (Anssi Saari)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 11:53:43 +0200
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 by: Anssi Saari - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 09:53 UTC

"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> writes:

> And how much other stuff ???
>
> /etc/networking worked JUST FINE and is hugely documented
>
> There was NO reason to change.
>

> So, basically, you now have to BREAK Deb to get it to work
> like it used to. Cannonical led the way toward STUPID changes
> and now Deb seems to have even exceeded THEM.

If by Deb you mean Debian, it still defaults, in version 12, to using
/etc/network/interfaces and ifupdown for network management.

The Raspberry Pi foundation makes changes to Debian and calls it the
Raspberry Pi OS. Or Raspbian, earlier.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 12:22:55 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 12:22 UTC

On 06/11/2023 09:17, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uia9di$dimp$1@dont-email.me>,
> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2023 08:47, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2023 08:24, Bob Latham wrote:
>
>>>> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the
>>>> OS to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>> with zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is
>>>> some weird security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>>>>
>>>> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC
>>>> copy it to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the
>>>> correct place at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to
>>>> prevent overwrite. I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's
>>>> up next...
>>>>
>>>> Bob.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not happening here but I do note that nmcli says wlan0 is
>>> unmanaged.
>
>> Oh dear, replying to myself....
>
>> As it's unmanaged by NetworkManagaer, then it's being left alone.
>> That's just fine for what this PiZeroW is used for. I have another
>> PiZeroW with the same release of software that I'll play with and
>> will add wlan0 to NetworkManager's grasp so I can see what it does
>> (if anything).
>
> Further testing just, has revealed that bookworm doesn't seem to copy
> the wpa_supplicant.conf file from boot partition at boot up like
> bullseye did. The only way I've found to get that file there is via
> ethernet and in my case samba.
>
> Upon reboot, sometimes the wpa_supplicant.conf files gets overwritten
> with zeros and sometimes not. I've no idea why.
>
> Bob.
>

Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm lite
on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a long time
to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU [Archer T2U Nano],
I just did:
nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged (and
unneeded). The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is documented
here:
https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network

Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder to
configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible from
Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm

What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

BTW Bookworm is (subjectively) faster than Bullseye on a PiB+

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I AM NOT A LEAN MEAN SPITTING MACHINE

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uiaobs$fobi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@invalid.com (mm0fmf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 13:06:03 +0000
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 by: mm0fmf - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 13:06 UTC

On 06/11/2023 12:22, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

In my case I had working Buster and upgraded in situ to Bullseye then
Bookworm on a headless PiZeroW. The legacy network setup was moved and
the automatic power up connection to Wifi stayed active. Then a recent
update to Bookworm changed NetworkManager and Wifi was broken. The fix
is as described early.

I've been playing with nmcli on a Pi with some USB Wifi dongles and have
played with nmcli d wifi connect.... and yes, it works and survives
reboots. My built wlan0 is currently unmanaged by NM.

I'm thinking a clean install of Bookworm would have put wlan0 under NM
control. But as it was using the old style setup it was left as is (and
working). The later NM update didn't / couldn't cope with that style of
setup, failed and broke the old style network setup. What I've done
(which I found somewhere online) works and leaves wlan0 outside of NM
control.

I'm just considering whether to leave as it as it is working or to do a
sudo nmcli dev set wlan0 managed yes, remove the files I added and let
NM manage it from now on. Probably the best course of action in the long
run as it's possible and probable a future NM update may break things
again.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<5aff165019bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 13:44:50 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 13:44 UTC

In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

> Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
> lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
> long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
> [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:

> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

> It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
> (and unneeded).

<stunned gulp>

Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
command?

Wow, I'll try this out later.

> The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
> documented here:
> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network

> Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
> wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
> to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
> from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."

Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)

> I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
> https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm

I'll have a read of that, thanks.

> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?

Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.

Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.

Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.

Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)

Thanks for the suggestion.

Bob.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uiats7$gig9$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=7934&group=comp.sys.raspberry-pi#7934

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 14:40:07 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 14:40 UTC

On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
> Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
>
>> Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
>> lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
>> long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
>> [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:
>
>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
>> It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
>> (and unneeded).
>
> <stunned gulp>
>
> Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
> command?
>
> Wow, I'll try this out later.

Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.

>
>> The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
>> documented here:
>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
>
>> Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
>> wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
>> to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
>> from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
>
> Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)
>
>> I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
>> https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
>
> I'll have a read of that, thanks.
>
>> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
>
> Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
> wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.
>
> Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
> and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.
>
> Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.
>
> Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
> don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)

Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)

>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Bob.
>
It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
'wpa_cli status'

--
Chris Elvidge, England
COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uiav44$gp5b$1@dont-email.me>

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:01:23 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:01 UTC

Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
settings. I have:

# Disable compensation for displays with overscan
disable_overscan=1
overscan_left=50
overscan_right=20
overscan_top=25
overscan_bottom=20

which works until the (new) video driver takes over

Solution: comment out the new driver viz:

# Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
#dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
#max_framebuffers=2

--
Chris Elvidge, England
COFFEE IS NOT FOR KIDS

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uib060$gu7d$1@dont-email.me>

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From: non...@invalid.com (mm0fmf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:19:26 +0000
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 by: mm0fmf - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:19 UTC

On 06/11/2023 14:40, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
>>     Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Just 'cos of this thread, I've been frigging around with bookworm
>>> lite on a PiB+. After getting the firmware for my dongle - took a
>>> long time to compile - TP-Link AC600 wireless Realtek RTL8811AU
>>> [Archer T2U Nano], I just did:
>>
>>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>>
>>> It survives a reboot. My wpa_supplicant.conf file stays unchanged
>>> (and unneeded).
>>
>> <stunned gulp>
>>
>> Are you saying that you get a wi-fi dongle to work with just one
>> command?
>>
>> Wow, I'll try this out later.
>
> Not exactly a single command <g> as I had to download and compile the
> drivers for the USB dongle. That took ages! But I got both 5GHz and 2.4
> GHz (80211ac). I'll try out a more simple dongle (80211n) later today.
>
>>
>>> The bit about it not being copied from /boot/ is
>>> documented here:
>>> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/configuration.html#connect-to-a-wireless-network
>>>
>>
>>> Quote: "Previous versions of Raspberry Pi OS made use of a
>>> wpa_supplicant.conf file which could be placed into the boot folder
>>> to configure wireless network settings. This is no longer possible
>>> from Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm onwards."
>>
>> Well at least my testing was correct then. :-)
>>
>>> I found Jeff Geerling's blog handy:
>>> https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/nmcli-wifi-on-raspberry-pi-os-12-bookworm
>>>
>>
>> I'll have a read of that, thanks.
>>
>>> What exactly is the problem being fixed here?
>>
>> Recently I've been using secondhand pi3 devices because they have
>> wi-fi built in and that just worked from raspi-config on bookworm.
>>
>> Then I saw this thread and thought I'd try a pi2 with a wi-fi dongle
>> and I couldn't get it to work certainly not as I'd done on bullseye.
>>
>> Clever fold on here told me a way to get it going and that did work.
>>
>> Later I'll try your suggestion and see if that works for me. I just
>> don't know how you find out this stuff. :-)
>
> Mainly, Jeff Geerling's blog (see above)
>
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion.
>>
>> Bob.
>>
> It seems (to me) that NetworkManager uses dhcpcd (not dhclient)
> internally, but I could be wrong. And wpa_supplicant seems to come into
> it somewhere, but doesn't use seem to use
> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
> 'wpa_cli status'
>
>

I switched from wlan0 unmanaged by NM to managed and working. It was
reasonably straightforward.

sudo nmtui rather than nmcli to setup the profile info and wifi
password. I'm happy using nmcli but I thought I try the "GUI" version as
many will be happier using that.

At first I could not make NM manage wlan0. This was because in
/etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf the ifupdown section was set to
managed=false and so I changed that to managed-true.

Reboot and wlan0 is controlled by NM and connects on power up.

This was straightforward because I used a USB ethernet dongle to control
the Pi rather than using the wlan0 device I was reconfiguring.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<iU92N.38941$sqIa.32600@fx07.iad>

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Sender: Scott Alfter <salfter@linode.ip.linodeusercontent.com>
From: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
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 by: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 18:03 UTC

56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
> system-<something>

nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses
NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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From: new...@druck.org.uk (druck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
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 by: druck - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 21:21 UTC

On 04/11/2023 03:59, 56d.1152 wrote:
>   DID run into one very WEIRD issue with Bookworm -
>   can't get /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
>   to work properly on a Pi4. Works fine on a Pi3 though.
The Pi 4 and later use Wayland (perpetually unfinished and unfit for
purpose windowing system) so LXDE isn't used. Try switching back to X11
and all will be well.
---druck

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uibm56$kh5j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@druck.org.uk (druck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
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 by: druck - Mon, 6 Nov 2023 21:34 UTC

On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
> settings.
[Snip]
> which works until the (new) video driver takes over

Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother
supporting, so no longer work.

> Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
>
> # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
> #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
> #max_framebuffers=2

There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.

---druck

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
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References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me> <WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me> <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afdfffb94bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afe83e4abbob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me> <5afea1c00fbob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <ui8q86$40vn$1@dont-email.me> <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afef8f906bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 02:59 UTC

On 11/6/23 3:24 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> On 11/5/23 2:25 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
>>> On 05/11/2023 16:31, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>> In article <ui8b6h$1k37$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I added the following files
>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In my case the content is
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.d/wlan0
>>>>> allow-hotplug wlan0
>>>>> iface wlan0 inet dhcp
>>>>> wpa-conf /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
>>>>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=netdev
>>>>> update_config=1
>>>>> country=GB
>>>>
>>>>> network={
>>>>> ssid="MyHomeWifiName"
>>>>> psk="XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX"
>>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic !! It works !! Well done - thank you.
>
>
>> Did that work on BOOKWORM ???
>
> Yes it does!
>
> However, one word of caution. There is a strong tendency for the OS
> to overwrite the file /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf with
> zeros. I've seen this with bullseye too. I suspect it is some weird
> security measure to try to stop tinkering.
>
> The solution with bullseye is to copy that file not to
> /etc/wpa_supplicant but whilst the SD card is still in the PC copy it
> to the boot partition. The Pi then copies this into the correct place
> at boot up and marks it as valid in some way to prevent overwrite.
> I've not tried this yet on bookworm, that's up next...

I'll do some experiments. Glad to see SOMETHING other
than the weird /etc/NetworkManager stuff might work !

Another 'cure' for the overwrite issue would be to write
an on-boot script that physically copies a GOOD copy to
WPA_Supplicant fairly early on. Not as elegant, but then
you also don't have to tamper with /boot

Such a pity though that after ALL these years we STILL
have to find ways to fix/break the normal OS just to
do simple - but very important - stuff like this.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
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References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me> <WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me> <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afdfffb94bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <slrnukd5ac.c0ep.news-1513678000@a-tuin.ms.intern> <uECdnUHk67n8uNr4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com> <0eo*XREuz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <FcGcnQzs4rfQ9dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com> <20231106070105.adccb31eff83e0342cc8420b@eircom.net>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 03:17 UTC

On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
>
>>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
>>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack, either
>>> with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>>
>>
>> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
>> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
>
> Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in FreeBSD.
>
>> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
>> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
>
> Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> fashion.

I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
of FreeBSD.

ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
or 'smart devices'.

In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.

Maybe it's a 6/Half-Dozen thing ?

As for Linux, I fear Canonical and its "philosophy" are
gaining too much traction. I dumped the 'Buntu's a few
years back because of that - but now even Mother Deb seems
to to be 'contaminated'. There's a systemd rebellion
faction ... maybe a "Pure Deb" rebellion faction is
also needed ?

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me>
<WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me>
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<iU92N.38941$sqIa.32600@fx07.iad>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
Organization: interleave osmium
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 by: 56d.1152 - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 04:58 UTC

On 11/6/23 1:03 PM, scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> 56d.1152 <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> For a GUI-less Bookworm you have to fool with the very
>> horrible 'nmcli' and then manually EDIT the net def
>> templates it creates way down in /etc/NetworkManager/
>> system-<something>
>
> nmtui is much nicer to work with. On everything I run that uses
> NetworkManager, I make sure nmtui is installed.
>

I'm gonna write a py app for it ... already know
how it'll work. Just the usual basics, easy to
go back and forth in a particular networking def.

DID post templates for what's in
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections
and how to use nmcli to at least create
(/register?) the useless base templates.
Then you copy/paste my examples into them
and make yer specific tweaks.

Liked the old way, indeed even OLDER way,
a lot better. Far less mystery and BS.

It's all easier if you are making a GUI-based
system ... but without GUI tools (and you have
to deliberately install one in Bookworm and
run it as root) it's suddenly a real pain to
do static IPs and such.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
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References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me>
<WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me>
<NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
<5afdfffb94bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
<OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>
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<5afea1c00fbob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <ui8q86$40vn$1@dont-email.me>
<FcGcnQ_s4rd39dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>
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<uia9di$dimp$1@dont-email.me> <5afefdcaccbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
<uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me> <5aff165019bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>
<uiav44$gp5b$1@dont-email.me> <uibm56$kh5j$1@dont-email.me>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 05:06 UTC

On 11/6/23 4:34 PM, druck wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
>> settings.
> [Snip]
>> which works until the (new) video driver takes over
>
> Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother
> supporting, so no longer work.
>
>> Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
>>
>> # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
>> #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
>> #max_framebuffers=2
>
> There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.

Yep ! :-)

I've been hearing hype about Wayland for many
years now. IMHO it's still not up to snuff and
more stupid than X11 and may always be thus.
And, as mentioned here, it KILLS a lot of useful
stuff that's WELL documented for X11.

No thanks.

Sometimes "improvements" just AREN'T. Don't break
what ain't broke.

I do practical stuff with Pi's and do NOT wanna
rewrite big apps, or half the OS, just to make
things work straight-up.

Hate to rec more distros, but perhaps the Pi people
need to consider their target audience and make their
OWN, straight-up, version of Deb. Go back to Buster
or even Stretch and proceed from there.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 07:15 UTC

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:17:44 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
> > "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
> >
> >>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
> >>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
> >>> either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
> >>
> >>
> >> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
> >> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
> >
> > Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
> > FreeBSD.
> >
> >> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
> >> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
> >
> > Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
> > fashion.
>
>
> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
> of FreeBSD.
>
> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
> or 'smart devices'.

Not sure how you got that impression samba will export both smb2
and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uid0bc$uncp$1@dont-email.me>

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From: usenet...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid (Mike Scott)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 09:34:35 +0000
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 by: Mike Scott - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 09:34 UTC

On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
......
>
>   I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>   of FreeBSD.

I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well
enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

>
>   ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
>   they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
>   and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass

A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
sure that's only smb1?

>   to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
>   the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
>   or 'smart devices'.
>
>   In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
>   NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
>   In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.

Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
follow tried and tested paths.

Horses for courses.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 10:38:13 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 10:38 UTC

On 06/11/2023 21:34, druck wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 15:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>> Another problem I found with RPiB+/Bookworm lite is the overscan
>> settings.
> [Snip]
>> which works until the (new) video driver takes over
>
> Overscan is yet another thing the Wayland developers can't be bother
> supporting, so no longer work.
>
>> Solution: comment out the new driver viz:
>>
>> # Enable DRM VC4 V3D driver
>> #dtoverlay=vc4-kms-v3d
>> #max_framebuffers=2
>
> There is no need to stop using the driver, just switch back to using X11.
>
> ---druck
>

AFAIK Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm Lite doesn't use either X11 or Wayland

--
Chris Elvidge, England
RUDOLPH'S RED NOSE IS NOT ALCOHOL-RELATED

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:52:01 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 12:52 UTC

In article <uiats7$gig9$1@dont-email.me>,
Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
> > Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

> >> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0

That command worked for me on a pi2/bookworm with a Wi-Fi dongle and
so I try to understand it and add it to my notes. Most of it is
obvious but what is the "d" for?

The jeffgeerling blog which I believe is the source of this, uses the
"d" option but fails to explain it.

The redhat documentation here..
https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/networking_guide/sec-configuring_ip_networking_with_nmcli

never uses a "d" option but does use a "c" option which isn't
explained either. It also refers a lot to parameters like -t.

Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?

On other OS in the past I've seen where these would be flags with
opposite setting ie. t is a flag on and -t is the same flag off. I
don't think that's the case here but could well be wrong.

My best guess is that "d" is short for 'device', if so what is "c"
short for?

Thanks.

Bob.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 13:27:34 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 13:27 UTC

On 07/11/2023 12:52, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uiats7$gig9$1@dont-email.me>,
> Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
>> On 06/11/2023 13:44, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> In article <uialr1$fcug$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:
>
>>>> nmcli d wifi connect "myssid" password "mypassword" ifname wlan0
>
> That command worked for me on a pi2/bookworm with a Wi-Fi dongle and
> so I try to understand it and add it to my notes. Most of it is
> obvious but what is the "d" for?
>
> The jeffgeerling blog which I believe is the source of this, uses the
> "d" option but fails to explain it.
>
> The redhat documentation here..
> https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/networking_guide/sec-configuring_ip_networking_with_nmcli
>
> never uses a "d" option but does use a "c" option which isn't
> explained either. It also refers a lot to parameters like -t.
>
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?
>
> On other OS in the past I've seen where these would be flags with
> opposite setting ie. t is a flag on and -t is the same flag off. I
> don't think that's the case here but could well be wrong.
>
> My best guess is that "d" is short for 'device', if so what is "c"
> short for?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>

nmcli --help lists these objects in addition to other things

Usage: nmcli [OPTIONS] OBJECT { COMMAND | help }

OPTIONS
-a, --ask ask for missing parameters
-c, --colors auto|yes|no whether to use colors in output
-e, --escape yes|no escape columns separators in
values
-f, --fields <field,...>|all|common specify fields to output
-g, --get-values <field,...>|all|common shortcut for -m tabular -t -f
-h, --help print this help
-m, --mode tabular|multiline output mode
-o, --overview overview mode
-p, --pretty pretty output
-s, --show-secrets allow displaying passwords
-t, --terse terse output
-v, --version show program version
-w, --wait <seconds> set timeout waiting for
finishing operations

OBJECT
g[eneral] NetworkManager's general status and operations
n[etworking] overall networking control
r[adio] NetworkManager radio switches
c[onnection] NetworkManager's connections
d[evice] devices managed by NetworkManager
a[gent] NetworkManager secret agent or polkit agent
m[onitor] monitor NetworkManager changes

--
Chris Elvidge, England
BART BUCKS, ARE NOT LEGAL TENDER

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2023 13:33:23 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 13:33 UTC

In article <uide08$10u6o$1@dont-email.me>,
Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

> nmcli --help lists these objects in addition to other things

Brilliant.

Thanks.

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

<uidngg$12p7r$1@dont-email.me>

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From: bnl...@nowhere.com (Björn Lundin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 17:09:52 +0100
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 by: Björn Lundin - Tue, 7 Nov 2023 16:09 UTC

On 2023-11-07 13:52, Bob Latham wrote:
> Now an embarrassing question in Linux is "t" the same as "-t"?

The sad answer is that it depends

When a program is started and parses the commandline,
depending on language/library used you get different ways
but most separate options from parameters where options are prefixed
with something ('-', '--', '/')

eg, using some kind of getopt lib,
you could expect options to start with '-'

and parameters not being prefixed.

Then option is 1 char only, like -t or -d /dev/sda

If it is a reasonable new (gnu) getopt, it will do long options as well

--time or --device=/dev/sda

However if no library is used and the program just reads the command
line, then is is whatever the programmer felt like at the time

So on the system I work on we have a cmdline-parsing lib that insists on

prefix is 1 char
'-' for unix and '/' for Win + VMS (still in the lib)
if first part of option is 'no' then it negates the meaning

meaning we have commands like

swap_table -name=tablename -norebuildindex
or
swap_table -name=tablename -rebuildindex

where -name is longer than 1 char and rebuildindex is a boolean value.
-norebuildindex does not exist in code - it is a negated -rebuildindex

--
/Björn

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me> <WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me> <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afdfffb94bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <slrnukd5ac.c0ep.news-1513678000@a-tuin.ms.intern> <uECdnUHk67n8uNr4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com> <0eo*XREuz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <FcGcnQzs4rfQ9dX4nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com> <20231106070105.adccb31eff83e0342cc8420b@eircom.net> <2F-dnT-bv7jEMdT4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <20231107071531.341a00917bea991c1a86ef2e@eircom.net>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Wed, 8 Nov 2023 05:00 UTC

On 11/7/23 2:15 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:17:44 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/23 2:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 23:15:08 -0500
>>> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/5/23 9:50 AM, Theo wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Supposedly it was because ifupdown depends on dhclient, which is now
>>>>> abandonware. Hence they needed to replace that part of the stack,
>>>>> either with NetworkManager or systemd-networkd:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And NOBODY else in the LiniVerse could maintain/tweak/replace
>>>> dhclient ??? This exposes a PROBLEM.
>>>
>>> Strange that - dhclient is still part of the base system in
>>> FreeBSD.
>>>
>>>> I've HAD it with stupid pointless changes in What Works.
>>>> Sounds like, horrors, MICROSOFT !
>>>
>>> Look into the BSDs - they're not Linux and they don't follow
>>> fashion.
>>
>>
>> I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>> of FreeBSD.
>>
>> ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
>> they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
>> and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
>> to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
>> the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
>> or 'smart devices'.
>
> Not sure how you got that impression samba will export both smb2
> and smb3 shares on FreeBSD, It's the same samba as used in Linux.

I was also exploring some of the other BSDs ... Open, Dragonfly, etc.
MAY be that Free CAN do at least SMB2, though SMB3 IS still better.

Anyway, let's get REAL. Yer Linux/BSD devices WILL mostly be
communicating with WINDERS shit almost exclusively. All the
little NK/PRC hacks go after EVERY possible Winders weakness.

Oh, reviewing recent firwall logs, there were a huge number
of attacks directed at INDUSTRIAL CONTROLLERS about a week ago.
Siemens especially. All kinds of ways to attack those - indeed
the CIA did exactly that to Iran about a decade ago, ruining a
lot of their uranium centrifuges.

Note also, the bulk of the Australian net WENT DOWN HARD
yesterday - right before the Oz PM is set to meet with Xi.
No commerce, even affected trains and airlines. Don't care
WHAT they officially blame it on - I'm sure Xi was sending
a message ...... maybe as much as a billion-dollar message.
His agents are deeply embedded, everywhere. Guess what
happens in the US/EU when the Taiwan invasion starts ? :-)
'Cloud' biz sounds SO good - until there's no 'cloud'.
Got a wad of CASH ? Better have ....

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 05:28:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple
desktops/workspaces?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me>
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From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Wed, 8 Nov 2023 05:28 UTC

On 11/7/23 4:34 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 07/11/2023 03:17, 56d.1152 wrote:
> .....
>>
>>    I have looked into the BSDs - including the ARM version
>>    of FreeBSD.
>
> I run freebsd on a pi4 as our main server. A little slow, but works well
> enough. Used to run samba (on an i386), but got rid of windows in favour
> of linux desktops quite a few years ago and never looked back.

Kinda dinky "main server" ... I use a fast i9/gen-12 :-)

But what works for you, works. Needs/goals vary.

Alas I CANNOT get rid of the damned Winders crap. The new
boss is Winders OBSESSED "Everybody uses that and nothing
else" is the official opinion. Straight out of a Dilbert
strip - the oblivious lead.

But I 'm retiring soon - the New Guy can deal :-) It
won't be cheap or nice or even 'solid' ........ but it
sure won't be MY FAULT :-)

>>    ONE odd issue, but kinda important to me & org, is that
>>    they do NOT seem to do SMB2 or SMB3 ... just the insecure
>>    and long-defunct SMB1. It's far more a pain in the ass
>
> A quick look at freebsd ports shows something called samba 4.13. Are you
> sure that's only smb1?

Free MIGHT do at least SMB2 now ... but I'm not sure
how much WORK/complexity is required. Open/Dragonfly
and some others DID seem stuck at SMB-1 when I evaled
them about a year ago. Hate it or hate it more, Winders
IS what most of yer Linux/BSD/Unix servers/devices are
gonna be dealing with.

>>    to create shares or use them in BSD (and no, FORGET NFS ...
>>    the Real World is 95% Winders with Linux/Unix as servers
>>    or 'smart devices'.
>>
>>    In some ways the BSDs are "better", solid, well thought-out,
>>    NOT prone to stupid pointless changes in basic functions.
>>    In a few ways though they are WELL behind the curve.
>
> Maybe those go together - if you're at the forefront of development,
> you're necessarily in unstable times. If you prefer stability, let
> someone else cut themselves on the bleeding edge and you be content to
> follow tried and tested paths.

That's been my working philosophy ... BUT I need safe/stable
solutions to deal with today's real world issues. If I can
at least get that - no spiffy bells and whistles needed -
then everything's cool. Let the bleeding-edge fanatics
work out their bugs.

>
> Horses for courses.
>

The way the world is going we'll ALL be relying
on horses and donkeys again .... :-)

Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?

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Subject: Re: Raspberry PI OS Bookworm. Does it support multiple desktops/workspaces?
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References: <uhg6to$2875m$1@dont-email.me> <WIy*5qZtz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> <uhiolq$2r6du$2@dont-email.me> <NbednWsKQtdaXNj4nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <5afdfffb94bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> <OBGdncacO82Jvtr4nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com> <slrnukes8s.25h.jj@iridium.wf32df> <20231105121231.a615cf76d2d9f09b7bdca9be@eircom.net>
From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
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 by: 56d.1152 - Wed, 8 Nov 2023 05:34 UTC

On 11/5/23 7:12 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:40:28 -0000 (UTC)
> Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> It is possible to run a dhcp server that hands out a fixed IP address
>> for a specific MAC.
>
> Which can be a pain when you upgrade a box or want to hand a fixed
> IP to something like a phone that randomly changes MAC address to prevent
> IPv6 auto allocation being used for tracking.

Quite true. The "easy" fix, if you have a semi-decent router, is
to set a "static" dhcp thing - ie a particular IP reserved for
a given MAC address.

But it's "off-box" ... "ON box" is better and easier to
cope with down the line.

> Many DHCP servers can also allocate a static IP based on hostname
> which is really handy especially with DNS/DHCP integrated as in dnsmasq.
>

I have one that looks at the MAC address ... and will reserve
a particular IP for that MAC. But, as said above ...

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