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computers / alt.os.linux.suse / Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

SubjectAuthor
* Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
`* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
 `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
  `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
   `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
    `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
     `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
      `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
       `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
        `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
         `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
          +* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
          |+- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupDon Spam's Reckless Son
          |`* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
          | `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
          |  `- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
          `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupMalcolm
           +* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
           |`* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupMalcolm
           | `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
           |  `- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupMalcolm
           `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
            +- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
            `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
             `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
              `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
               `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
                +- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
                `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupMalcolm
                 `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.
                  `* Re: Yast Boot Loader setupbad sector
                   `- Re: Yast Boot Loader setupCarlos E.R.

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Yast Boot Loader setup

<bd-cnSRi8PPTmoj5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: bad sector - Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:35 UTC

I noticed in Leap-15.4 that on the Boot-Code-Options
page of the dialog the following are checked

1
Write-to-Partition

2
Write-to-Master-Boot-Record

3
Custom-Boot-Partition
/dev/disk/by-uuid/043b32d4-9cea-4bf2-9a86-a21b4859b4f5

'Help' doesn't cough up much guidance especially
with respect to what appears as a duplication i.e.
#1 and #3 aim at the same partition. There is also
a "BIOS boot" partition but Yast doesn't say if
it's being used by Leap or by grub.

I normally clear #3, especially since I don't know
its purpose or workings, and it's the same in Tumbleweed.

https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/bd05ffed9a4e

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<26mhejxf93.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:14:10 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Sat, 18 Mar 2023 21:14 UTC

On 2023-03-18 01:35, bad sector wrote:
>
> I noticed in Leap-15.4 that on the Boot-Code-Options
> page of the dialog the following are checked
>
> 1
> Write-to-Partition
>
> 2
> Write-to-Master-Boot-Record
>
> 3
> Custom-Boot-Partition
>    /dev/disk/by-uuid/043b32d4-9cea-4bf2-9a86-a21b4859b4f5
>
>
> 'Help' doesn't cough up much guidance especially
> with respect to what appears as a duplication i.e.
> #1 and #3 aim at the same partition. There is also
> a "BIOS boot" partition but Yast doesn't say if
> it's being used by Leap or by grub.

No contradiction. All three things can be done, even if some result in
the same action.

>
> I normally clear #3, especially since I don't know
> its purpose or workings, and it's the same in Tumbleweed.
>
>
> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/bd05ffed9a4e

Option 3 writes to sda4.

The information is clearer if you post (on susepaste):

lsblk --output \
NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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 by: bad sector - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:03 UTC

On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> lsblk --output \
> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>

ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet

https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<hr3mejxt52.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 13:32 UTC

On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> lsblk --output \
>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>
> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>
>
> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d

Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)

You really have that many swap partitions? Why?

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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 by: bad sector - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 14:37 UTC

On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> lsblk --output \
>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>
>>
>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>
>>
>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>
> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>
>
> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>

I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
this way (though many problems associated with the lack
of distro 'conviviality' still remain).

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<t4omejxq3e.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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 by: Carlos E.R. - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 19:18 UTC

On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>
>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>
>>>
>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>
>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>
>>
>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>
>
> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).

Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.

BTDT.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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 by: bad sector - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:33 UTC

On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>
>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>
>>
>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>
> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>
> BTDT.

how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:28 UTC

On 2023-03-20 21:33, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>
>>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>>
>> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>>
>> BTDT.
>
>
> how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?
>

Because it becomes possible to hibernate one Linux system, and then boot
another.

If the second system opens a partition that was opened by the first
system, it will think it was not properly umounted, and it will fsck it.
When later you thaw the first system, it will continue using that
filesystem, with the memorized structures it had before the fsck, and a
royal corruption issues.

Happened to me.

This is the reason that grub is disabled when the machine is hibernated,
but it is still possible to enable it. I did that.

No, the correct method is to share the same swap space, and properly
adjust each fstab.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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 by: bad sector - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 00:11 UTC

On 3/20/23 18:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-20 21:33, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>>>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>>>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>>>
>>> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>>>
>>> BTDT.
>>
>>
>> how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?
>>
>
> Because it becomes possible to hibernate one Linux system, and then boot
> another.
>
> If the second system opens a partition that was opened by the first
> system, it will think it was not properly umounted, and it will fsck it.
> When later you thaw the first system, it will continue using that
> filesystem, with the memorized structures it had before the fsck, and a
> royal corruption issues.
>
> Happened to me.
>
> This is the reason that grub is disabled when the machine is hibernated,
> but it is still possible to enable it. I did that.

Interesting, though I never enable hybernation at all (no use for it) so
I don't know its innards either. So you mean that a data partition that
had been mounted by a system but not unmounted when it crawled into its
den could next be mounted by a newly booted one? ...as opposed to a
common swap which, theologically, would just preclude any form of
resurrection?

> No, the correct method is to share the same swap space, and properly
> adjust each fstab.

how? Doesn't the stock fstab entry cover that?

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<s2jnejxohh.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 03:58:04 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Tue, 21 Mar 2023 02:58 UTC

On 2023-03-21 01:11, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/20/23 18:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-20 21:33, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>>>>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>>>>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>>>>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>>>>
>>>> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>>>>
>>>> BTDT.
>>>
>>>
>>> how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?
>>>
>>
>> Because it becomes possible to hibernate one Linux system, and then
>> boot another.
>>
>> If the second system opens a partition that was opened by the first
>> system, it will think it was not properly umounted, and it will fsck
>> it. When later you thaw the first system, it will continue using that
>> filesystem, with the memorized structures it had before the fsck, and
>> a royal corruption issues.
>>
>> Happened to me.
>>
>> This is the reason that grub is disabled when the machine is
>> hibernated, but it is still possible to enable it. I did that.
>
> Interesting, though I never enable hybernation at all (no use for it) so
> I don't know its innards either. So you mean that a data partition that
> had been mounted by a system but not unmounted when it crawled into its
> den could next be mounted by a newly booted one?

Certainly. The newly booted one thinks it owns it. Why not?

>...as opposed to a
> common swap which, theologically, would just preclude any form of
> resurrection?

Huh?

>
>
>> No, the correct method is to share the same swap space, and properly
>> adjust each fstab.
>
> how?  Doesn't the stock fstab entry cover that?

Of course not.

You just create a single swap. On every fstab you write the same line:

UUID=whatever swap swap defaults 0 0

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<56GcncSD29kBxYf5nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com>

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From: forget...@INVALID.net (bad sector)
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
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 by: bad sector - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 01:23 UTC

On 3/20/23 22:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-21 01:11, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/20/23 18:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-20 21:33, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>>>>>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>>>>>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTDT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because it becomes possible to hibernate one Linux system, and then
>>> boot another.
>>>
>>> If the second system opens a partition that was opened by the first
>>> system, it will think it was not properly umounted, and it will fsck
>>> it. When later you thaw the first system, it will continue using that
>>> filesystem, with the memorized structures it had before the fsck, and
>>> a royal corruption issues.
>>>
>>> Happened to me.
>>>
>>> This is the reason that grub is disabled when the machine is
>>> hibernated, but it is still possible to enable it. I did that.
>>
>> Interesting, though I never enable hybernation at all (no use for it)
>> so I don't know its innards either. So you mean that a data partition
>> that had been mounted by a system but not unmounted when it crawled
>> into its den could next be mounted by a newly booted one?
>
> Certainly. The newly booted one thinks it owns it. Why not?
>
>> ...as opposed to a common swap which, theologically, would just
>> preclude any form of resurrection?
>
> Huh?

Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of those
systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered hybernation if in
between another system got booted and made use of that swap partition. I
don't have a problem with this, but it seems to me that I'm having fewer
issues all around since I have started using dedicated swaps.

But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive "BIOS
Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on that
dialog would be useful.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<pc4qejxcmd.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:05:45 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <56GcncSD29kBxYf5nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 02:05 UTC

On 2023-03-22 02:23, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/20/23 22:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-21 01:11, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 3/20/23 18:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-20 21:33, bad sector wrote:
>>>>> On 3/20/23 15:18, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-03-20 15:37, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/20/23 09:32, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2023-03-20 14:03, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/18/23 17:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> lsblk --output \
>>>>>>>>>> NAME,KNAME,RA,RM,RO,PARTFLAGS,SIZE,TYPE,FSTYPE,LABEL,PARTLABEL,PTTYPE,MOUNTPOINT,UUID,PARTUUID,WWN,MODEL,ALIGNMENT
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ignore the 'labels', I haven't gotten around to wiping them yet
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/ce83f8ac2b6d
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Isn't that a nicer way to have the information? :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You really have that many swap partitions? Why?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I run 7 distros, each has its own, fewer broken bones
>>>>>>> this way (though many problems associated with the lack
>>>>>>> of distro 'conviviality' still remain).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sharing swap can cause other REALLY BIG trouble.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTDT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> how so for ext4 if each fstab has its own swap id'd by uuid?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because it becomes possible to hibernate one Linux system, and then
>>>> boot another.
>>>>
>>>> If the second system opens a partition that was opened by the first
>>>> system, it will think it was not properly umounted, and it will fsck
>>>> it. When later you thaw the first system, it will continue using
>>>> that filesystem, with the memorized structures it had before the
>>>> fsck, and a royal corruption issues.
>>>>
>>>> Happened to me.
>>>>
>>>> This is the reason that grub is disabled when the machine is
>>>> hibernated, but it is still possible to enable it. I did that.
>>>
>>> Interesting, though I never enable hybernation at all (no use for it)
>>> so I don't know its innards either. So you mean that a data partition
>>> that had been mounted by a system but not unmounted when it crawled
>>> into its den could next be mounted by a newly booted one?
>>
>> Certainly. The newly booted one thinks it owns it. Why not?
>>
>>> ...as opposed to a common swap which, theologically, would just
>>> preclude any form of resurrection?
>>
>> Huh?
>
> Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of those
> systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered hybernation if in
> between another system got booted and made use of that swap partition. I
> don't have a problem with this, but it seems to me that I'm having fewer
> issues all around since I have started using dedicated swaps.

I told you that:

Boot A partition
Hibernate A partition

Boot B partition
halt B partition

Thaw A partition

is a recipe for disaster, don't ever do it.

Yes, having a single swap avoids this, so it is a good thing. Precisely.

>
> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive "BIOS
> Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on that
> dialog would be useful.

I already told you that selecting 1 and 3 is not a problem at all. Even
1, 2 and 3 simultaneously is fine, if you wish.

1 writes to the current partition that was used for booting the current
system.

3 lets you specify which partition.

2 writes to the master boot record of the hard disk.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<20230321225529.163ea0dd@grover.homelinux.org>

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From: malcolml...@linuxmail.org.invalid (Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 22:55:29 -0500
Organization: Cleveland, MS 38732
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 by: Malcolm - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:55 UTC

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
<snip>

> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
> that dialog would be useful.
Hi
BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
disk.

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
Tumbleweed 20230318 | GNOME Shell 43.3 | 6.2.6-1-default
HP Z440 | Xeon E5-2690 V3 X24 @ 2.60GHz | Nvidia Quadro T400/Tesla P4
up 2 days 14:01, 2 users, load average: 0.45, 0.15, 0.14

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<tveclo$hqg2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: hyperspa...@vogon.gov.invalid (Don Spam's Reckless Son)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:02:00 +0100
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 by: Don Spam's Reck - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 08:02 UTC

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-22 02:23, bad sector wrote:
>>
>> Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of
>> those systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered
>> hybernation if in between another system got booted and made use of
>> that swap partition. I don't have a problem with this, but it seems to
>> me that I'm having fewer issues all around since I have started using
>> dedicated swaps.
>
> I told you that:
>
> Boot A partition
> Hibernate A partition
>
>   Boot B partition
>   halt B partition
>
> Thaw A partition
>
> is a recipe for disaster, don't ever do it.
>
> Yes, having a single swap avoids this, so it is a good thing. Precisely.
>
>
snip
bad sector already pointed out that he does not use Hibernation at all.
If it still goes wrong then at least he was warned, as in WARNED.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:39:46 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 10:39 UTC

On 2023-03-22 04:55, Malcolm wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>> that dialog would be useful.
> Hi
> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
> disk.
>

If GRUB is installed on the MBR. If it is installed on partition, then no.

But in his case it is installed in both, so the safe course is having
the so called bios boot partition.

Oh, I have said it many times, the so called bios boot partition is not
the same, not related, to having an ESP partition or a /boot partition.
The three are different. Only the later is not needed except on special
cases.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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From: forget...@INVALID.net (bad sector)
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
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 by: bad sector - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 10:54 UTC

On 3/21/23 22:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-22 02:23, bad sector wrote:

>>>> ...as opposed to a common swap which, theologically, would just
>>>> preclude any form of resurrection?
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>
>> Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of
>> those systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered
>> hybernation if in between another system got booted and made use of
>> that swap partition. I don't have a problem with this, but it seems to
>> me that I'm having fewer issues all around since I have started using
>> dedicated swaps.
>
> I told you that:
>
> Boot A partition
> Hibernate A partition
>
>   Boot B partition
>   halt B partition
>
> Thaw A partition
>
> is a recipe for disaster, don't ever do it.
>
> Yes, having a single swap avoids this, so it is a good thing. Precisely.
>
>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>> that dialog would be useful.
>
> I already told you that selecting 1 and 3 is not a problem at all. Even
> 1, 2 and 3 simultaneously is fine, if you wish.
>
> 1 writes to the current partition that was used for booting the current
> system.
>
> 3 lets you specify which partition.
>
> 2 writes to the master boot record of the hard disk.

I didn't think it was a PROBLEM, I wanted to know what it does and why
it's preselected by default at all but especially in view of equal
choice #1 which is already selected before it. So, assumingthat it's
just the coder's way to try to assure a bulletproof boot the next time I
can live with that and even applaud it (especially if right below the
uuid window it'd say in small print "current partition preselected only
for lack of a different user directive".

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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From: forget...@INVALID.net (bad sector)
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 by: bad sector - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:01 UTC

On 3/21/23 23:55, Malcolm wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>> that dialog would be useful.
> Hi
> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
> disk.

I do have a GPT disk and having no need for EFI I do use legacy boot

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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 by: bad sector - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:03 UTC

On 3/22/23 07:01, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/21/23 23:55, Malcolm wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
>> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>>> that dialog would be useful.
>> Hi
>> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
>> disk.
>
> I do have a GPT disk and having no need for EFI I do use legacy boot
>
>
sorry, that went out with the wrong handle

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:05 UTC

On 2023-03-22 11:54, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/21/23 22:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-22 02:23, bad sector wrote:
>
>>>>> ...as opposed to a common swap which, theologically, would just
>>>>> preclude any form of resurrection?
>>>>
>>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of
>>> those systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered
>>> hybernation if in between another system got booted and made use of
>>> that swap partition. I don't have a problem with this, but it seems
>>> to me that I'm having fewer issues all around since I have started
>>> using dedicated swaps.
>>
>> I told you that:
>>
>> Boot A partition
>> Hibernate A partition
>>
>>    Boot B partition
>>    halt B partition
>>
>> Thaw A partition
>>
>> is a recipe for disaster, don't ever do it.
>>
>> Yes, having a single swap avoids this, so it is a good thing. Precisely.
>>
>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>>> that dialog would be useful.
>>
>> I already told you that selecting 1 and 3 is not a problem at all.
>> Even 1, 2 and 3 simultaneously is fine, if you wish.
>>
>> 1 writes to the current partition that was used for booting the
>> current system.
>>
>> 3 lets you specify which partition.
>>
>> 2 writes to the master boot record of the hard disk.
>
> I didn't think it was a PROBLEM, I wanted to know what it does and why
> it's preselected by default at all but especially in view of equal
> choice #1 which is already selected before it. So, assumingthat it's
> just the coder's way to try to assure a bulletproof boot the next time I
> can live with that and even applaud it (especially if right below the
> uuid window it'd say in small print "current partition preselected only
> for lack of a different user directive".

No, it is not the default.

It happens in your case for some reason I can't know. For example
because it was done this way initially, and YaST remembers.

For example, writing to the MBR on my laptop #1 would render it unbootable.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<a56rejx745.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 12:42:02 +0100
Lines: 31
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:42 UTC

On 2023-03-22 12:01, bad sector wrote:
> On 3/21/23 23:55, Malcolm wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
>> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>>> that dialog would be useful.
>> Hi
>> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
>> disk.
>
> I do have a GPT disk and having no need for EFI I do use legacy boot

Yes, you do need it.

You actually need the "Bios Boot" partition, usually of 8 MiB size,
because you are using legacy boot.

And YaST will also insist, with good reasons, despite your
protestations, that you need an ESP partition, which you call EFI
partition (it is "EFI system partition, that is, ESP). Just let YaST
create it. It is quite small, and if you actually need it next decade
and don't have it, you will grind your teeth.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<20230322064850.3316cbbb@grover.homelinux.org>

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From: malcolml...@linuxmail.org.invalid (Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 06:48:50 -0500
Organization: Cleveland, MS 38732
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 by: Malcolm - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:48 UTC

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:39:46 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-03-22 04:55, Malcolm wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
> > bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> >> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on
> >> the difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the
> >> system partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a
> >> definitive "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose
> >> help bubbles on that dialog would be useful.
> > Hi
> > BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
> > disk.
> >
>
> If GRUB is installed on the MBR. If it is installed on partition,
> then no.
>
> But in his case it is installed in both, so the safe course is having
> the so called bios boot partition.
>
>
> Oh, I have said it many times, the so called bios boot partition is
> not the same, not related, to having an ESP partition or a /boot
> partition. The three are different. Only the later is not needed
> except on special cases.
>
Hi
There is no MBR on a gpt disk, hence the need for the small ~8MB
pmbr_boot...

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
Tumbleweed 20230318 | GNOME Shell 43.3 | 6.2.6-1-default
HP Z440 | Xeon E5-2690 V3 X24 @ 2.60GHz | Nvidia Quadro T400/Tesla P4
up 7:22, 2 users, load average: 0.32, 0.18, 0.12

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<jicrejxn7g.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:31:31 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 13:31 UTC

On 2023-03-22 12:48, Malcolm wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:39:46 +0100
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-03-22 04:55, Malcolm wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
>>> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on
>>>> the difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the
>>>> system partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a
>>>> definitive "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose
>>>> help bubbles on that dialog would be useful.
>>> Hi
>>> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
>>> disk.
>>>
>>
>> If GRUB is installed on the MBR. If it is installed on partition,
>> then no.
>>
>> But in his case it is installed in both, so the safe course is having
>> the so called bios boot partition.
>>
>>
>> Oh, I have said it many times, the so called bios boot partition is
>> not the same, not related, to having an ESP partition or a /boot
>> partition. The three are different. Only the later is not needed
>> except on special cases.
>>
> Hi
> There is no MBR on a gpt disk, hence the need for the small ~8MB
> pmbr_boot...

Huh, no, there certainly is an MBR on a GPT disk, called "protective
MBR", and normally ignored. It is on LBA 0. In case of legacy booting,
it is indeed used.

See the first figure in here:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table>

The issue is that there are no unused sectors right after it (LBA 1,
LBA2...), as it happens on a traditionally partitioned disk. On those
disks the next stage of Grub, after the MBR, was directly written to
those unclaimed sectors. That was a hack.

Currently, on GPT, that code is written instead to a dedicated proper
partition.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<4XqdnTCK-J0Nk4b5nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: bad sector - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:20 UTC

On 3/22/23 07:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-22 11:54, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/21/23 22:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-22 02:23, bad sector wrote:
>>
>>>>>> ...as opposed to a common swap which, theologically, would just
>>>>>> preclude any form of resurrection?
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh?
>>>>
>>>> Use of a swap partition common to all systems would prevent one of
>>>> those systems from ever 'resurrecting' after having entered
>>>> hybernation if in between another system got booted and made use of
>>>> that swap partition. I don't have a problem with this, but it seems
>>>> to me that I'm having fewer issues all around since I have started
>>>> using dedicated swaps.
>>>
>>> I told you that:
>>>
>>> Boot A partition
>>> Hibernate A partition
>>>
>>>    Boot B partition
>>>    halt B partition
>>>
>>> Thaw A partition
>>>
>>> is a recipe for disaster, don't ever do it.
>>>
>>> Yes, having a single swap avoids this, so it is a good thing. Precisely.
>>>
>>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>>>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>>>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>>>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles
>>>> on that dialog would be useful.
>>>
>>> I already told you that selecting 1 and 3 is not a problem at all.
>>> Even 1, 2 and 3 simultaneously is fine, if you wish.
>>>
>>> 1 writes to the current partition that was used for booting the
>>> current system.
>>>
>>> 3 lets you specify which partition.
>>>
>>> 2 writes to the master boot record of the hard disk.
>>
>> I didn't think it was a PROBLEM, I wanted to know what it does and why
>> it's preselected by default at all but especially in view of equal
>> choice #1 which is already selected before it. So, assumingthat it's
>> just the coder's way to try to assure a bulletproof boot the next time
>> I can live with that and even applaud it (especially if right below
>> the uuid window it'd say in small print "current partition preselected
>> only for lack of a different user directive".
>
> No, it is not the default.
>
> It happens in your case for some reason I can't know. For example
> because it was done this way initially, and YaST remembers.

It doesn't seem to remember that so-far each time I cleared
the #3 entry and unchecked that checkbox. But it's OK, I don't
have a problem with it if it can do no harm.

>
> For example, writing to the MBR on my laptop #1 would render it unbootable.

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<20230322095026.6acdfbae@grover.homelinux.org>

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From: malcolml...@linuxmail.org.invalid (Malcolm)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:50:26 -0500
Organization: Cleveland, MS 38732
Message-ID: <20230322095026.6acdfbae@grover.homelinux.org>
References: <bd-cnSRi8PPTmoj5nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@giganews.com> <26mhejxf93.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <Cqqcndlumoo3xIX5nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com> <hr3mejxt52.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <oyydnRpEoLk68oX5nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> <t4omejxq3e.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <paGcnYZqgL6yXoX5nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com> <i93nejxd51.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <iRmdnf8tIMmha4X5nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@giganews.com> <s2jnejxohh.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <56GcncSD29kBxYf5nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com> <20230321225529.163ea0dd@grover.homelinux.org> <ig2rejxosv.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <20230322064850.3316cbbb@grover.homelinux.org> <jicrejxn7g.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
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 by: Malcolm - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:50 UTC

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:31:31 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-03-22 12:48, Malcolm wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:39:46 +0100
> > "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-03-22 04:55, Malcolm wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
> >>> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on
> >>>> the difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the
> >>>> system partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a
> >>>> definitive "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose
> >>>> help bubbles on that dialog would be useful.
> >>> Hi
> >>> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a
> >>> gpt disk.
> >>>
> >>
> >> If GRUB is installed on the MBR. If it is installed on partition,
> >> then no.
> >>
> >> But in his case it is installed in both, so the safe course is
> >> having the so called bios boot partition.
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh, I have said it many times, the so called bios boot partition is
> >> not the same, not related, to having an ESP partition or a /boot
> >> partition. The three are different. Only the later is not needed
> >> except on special cases.
> >>
> > Hi
> > There is no MBR on a gpt disk, hence the need for the small ~8MB
> > pmbr_boot...
>
> Huh, no, there certainly is an MBR on a GPT disk, called "protective
> MBR", and normally ignored. It is on LBA 0. In case of legacy
> booting, it is indeed used.
>
> See the first figure in here:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table>
>
> The issue is that there are no unused sectors right after it (LBA 1,
> LBA2...), as it happens on a traditionally partitioned disk. On those
> disks the next stage of Grub, after the MBR, was directly written to
> those unclaimed sectors. That was a hack.
>
> Currently, on GPT, that code is written instead to a dedicated proper
> partition.
>
>
Yes, but in terms of history dos = mbr, and now gpt = pmbr_boot when
someone mentions/uses "mbr" I expect it to be a dos disk not a gpt one
;)

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
Tumbleweed 20230319 | GNOME Shell 43.3 | 6.2.6-1-default
HP Z440 | Xeon E5-2690 V3 X24 @ 2.60GHz | Nvidia Quadro T400/Tesla P4
up 0:42, 2 users, load average: 0.33, 0.43, 0.53

Re: Yast Boot Loader setup

<LMCcndkDmf-ULbf5nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>

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From: forget...@invalid.org (bad sector)
Subject: Re: Yast Boot Loader setup
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
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 by: bad sector - Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:52 UTC

On 3/22/23 07:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-22 12:01, bad sector wrote:
>> On 3/21/23 23:55, Malcolm wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 21:23:40 -0400
>>> bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> But none of this is getting me any closer to getting a handle on the
>>>> difference between 1 & 3 in the OP, or on the need to use the system
>>>> partition as a "Boot Partition" when there already is a definitive
>>>> "BIOS Boot" partition. I figure a little more verbose help bubbles on
>>>> that dialog would be useful.
>>> Hi
>>> BIOS Boot (type pmbr_boot) is need when using Legacy Boot and a gpt
>>> disk.
>>
>> I do have a GPT disk and having no need for EFI I do use legacy boot
>
> Yes, you do need it.

The BIOS-Boot yes, not that other horror

> You actually need the "Bios Boot" partition, usually of 8 MiB size,
> because you are using legacy boot.

While in the disk root world, would Truncated-MBR not be a much better
name for Protected-MBR? In fact Truncated-Root-Sector would be even
better seeing that MBR doesn't say much but Root-Sector does.

>
> And YaST will also insist, with good reasons, despite your
> protestations, that you need an ESP partition, which you call EFI
> partition (it is "EFI system partition, that is, ESP). Just let YaST
> create it. It is quite small, and if you actually need it next decade
> and don't have it, you will grind your teeth.

Next decade I might well be grinding and not just my teeth anyway :-)

I use fdisk of gfdisk or whatever to partition my disks because I want
partitions to be exactly sized with identical block numbers so that (if
needed) one system can be just dd'd to another partition. Gui
partitioners have a very long way to go to get me aboard especially if
their *microcancer-coefficient* leans heavily toward the 'virtualise
everything and keep the user in the mushromm factory by keeping him in
the dark and feeding him manure'.

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