It was in the news a few days ago; John "Hey, I once helped make Doom"
Romero is working on a new FPS. Very little information about the
project is known, other than it will use the Unreal 5 engine.

And I have to wonder, do I care? Should I?

Romero has been coasting on his involvement with Doom for 30 years,
and even if I was a believer in the idea of the savant developer (I'm
not), I'd still have to wonder if he matters anymore? Aside from some
poorly rated Indie games and Sigil (a .wad pack for the original
Doom), he really hasn't been involved in any major project since...
well, not since the Ion Storm days.* And even then, his style was
noticeably behind the curve, with his opus, Daikatana** pleasing
nobody. So the obvious question is, other than his name, what does
Romero really bring to a project like this?

Romero's upcoming game could be good. It could be great. It could be
one of those (pardon the pun) game-changers that radically alters how
we look at the genre, much like Half Life did. And if it does, I'll
praise it to the heavens. But until then, associating Romero's name
with the project makes it less likely, not more, that I'll buy it.

I've railed against this sort of thing before, what with the likes of
Richard Garriot and Roberta Williams trying to make a comeback even
though previous efforts at creating a game for modern audiences have
flopped. It implies either that their genius is so overwhelming that
their merest connection with a game immediately elevates it, or that
gamers should be so blinded by their nostalgia for those developer's
older works that they buy the game sight unseen. The first is
unpalatable arrogance, the latter preys on gamer's ignorance. Neither
factor makes me want to buy the game.

I'm not against Romero making these games. His recent efforts haven't
wowed me, but I don't want to imply he's untalented. I just hate the
way he's used (quite willingly, from what I can tell) to market the
damn thing, rather than letting his product speak for itself.

---------------------
* Not gonna mention "Daikatana". Not gonna mention it. I'm above that
sort of thing. Romero's more than just a one-game developer. He
shouldn't be defined by that one game. Be strong; don't mention
"Daikatana". Don't do it.
** Dammit!

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 18:20:32 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>It was in the news a few days ago; John "Hey, I once helped make Doom"
>Romero is working on a new FPS. Very little information about the
>project is known, other than it will use the Unreal 5 engine.
>
>And I have to wonder, do I care? Should I?

He needs to prove himself again with me before I do.

Meanwhile look up a game called "Witchfire"... looks very promising in
the FPS genre.

>Romero is working on a new FPS.

I just hope it's not 'retro', the intentionally simplified or oldskool
look and feel that is common now in indie titles. Nor am I interested in
multiplayer-only genres, another common trend, which are probably easier to
monetize with addons. I imagine its years away, so we'll see.

rms

On 22/07/2022 23:20, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> It was in the news a few days ago; John "Hey, I once helped make Doom"
> Romero is working on a new FPS. Very little information about the
> project is known, other than it will use the Unreal 5 engine.
>
> And I have to wonder, do I care? Should I?
>

I can't say I do. As I think I've said before, gaming trends are very
much effected by technology (unlike say films where it's much slowly)
and I have no real expectation that a dev. that could create good games
thirty years ago could now.

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 6:20:50 AM UTC+8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> It was in the news a few days ago; John "Hey, I once helped make Doom"
> Romero is working on a new FPS. Very little information about the
> project is known, other than it will use the Unreal 5 engine.
>
> And I have to wonder, do I care? Should I?
>
> Romero has been coasting on his involvement with Doom for 30 years,
> and even if I was a believer in the idea of the savant developer (I'm
> not), I'd still have to wonder if he matters anymore? Aside from some
> poorly rated Indie games and Sigil (a .wad pack for the original
> Doom), he really hasn't been involved in any major project since...
> well, not since the Ion Storm days.* And even then, his style was
> noticeably behind the curve, with his opus, Daikatana** pleasing
> nobody. So the obvious question is, other than his name, what does
> Romero really bring to a project like this?
>
> Romero's upcoming game could be good. It could be great. It could be
> one of those (pardon the pun) game-changers that radically alters how
> we look at the genre, much like Half Life did. And if it does, I'll
> praise it to the heavens. But until then, associating Romero's name
> with the project makes it less likely, not more, that I'll buy it.
>
> I've railed against this sort of thing before, what with the likes of
> Richard Garriot and Roberta Williams trying to make a comeback even
> though previous efforts at creating a game for modern audiences have
> flopped. It implies either that their genius is so overwhelming that
> their merest connection with a game immediately elevates it, or that
> gamers should be so blinded by their nostalgia for those developer's
> older works that they buy the game sight unseen. The first is
> unpalatable arrogance, the latter preys on gamer's ignorance. Neither
> factor makes me want to buy the game.
>
> I'm not against Romero making these games. His recent efforts haven't
> wowed me, but I don't want to imply he's untalented. I just hate the
> way he's used (quite willingly, from what I can tell) to market the
> damn thing, rather than letting his product speak for itself.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------
> * Not gonna mention "Daikatana". Not gonna mention it. I'm above that
> sort of thing. Romero's more than just a one-game developer. He
> shouldn't be defined by that one game. Be strong; don't mention
> "Daikatana". Don't do it.
> ** Dammit!

"Helped" to make Doom??? He was the person behind what made Doom a timeless masterpiece. Without his genius leveled design Doom would have been yet another tech demo shell of a game like all the games Carmack made once he kicked Romero out of ID in a fit of jealous rage.

>"Helped" to make Doom??? He was the person behind what made Doom a timeless
>masterpiece. Without his genius leveled design Doom would have been >yet
>another tech demo shell of a game like all the games Carmack made once he
>kicked Romero out of ID in a fit of jealous rage.

Agree. Carmack was the brains, but Romero was the creativity.

rms

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 09:20:48 -0600, "rms"
<rsquiresMOO@MOOflashMOO.net> wrote:

>>"Helped" to make Doom??? He was the person behind what made Doom a timeless
>>masterpiece. Without his genius leveled design Doom would have been >yet
>>another tech demo shell of a game like all the games Carmack made once he
>>kicked Romero out of ID in a fit of jealous rage.

> Agree. Carmack was the brains, but Romero was the creativity.

Romero was an influential part of the original "Doom's" creation...
but I think saying he was the "genius" single-handedly behind the
game's success dismisses the efforts of Sandy Peterson and Tom Hall
(both of whom actually created more levels of the game than Romero
himself). Nor should Carmack's efforts be dismissed so readily either;
the technical aspects of the game greatly influence the creative (and
also remember, it was Carmack's D&D campaign with its unforgiving
demons that were the baseline for the setting's creation).

"Doom" without Romero would likely have been a different product, and
arguably not as successful... but I think the same can be said were
any of the other team-members excluded. Like so many excellent games,
it was the end result of the partnership that created it, not
something that leaped Athena-like out of the head of one single
genius.

Which is why I so dislike any hype revolving around any single
developer being singled out when a new project is announced. It
doesn't really matter how talented that one person is when your team
numbers in the dozens or hundreds.

Especially when that one person's last significant success story was
three decades in the past.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 19:08:55 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Which is why I so dislike any hype revolving around any single
>developer being singled out when a new project is announced. It
>doesn't really matter how talented that one person is when your team
>numbers in the dozens or hundreds.
>
>Especially when that one person's last significant success story was
>three decades in the past.

And has a glaring failed attempt at bitch-making on his resume.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 19:48:17 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 19:08:55 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Which is why I so dislike any hype revolving around any single
>>developer being singled out when a new project is announced. It
>>doesn't really matter how talented that one person is when your team
>>numbers in the dozens or hundreds.
>>
>>Especially when that one person's last significant success story was
>>three decades in the past.

>And has a glaring failed attempt at bitch-making on his resume.

Although this infamous advertisment was actually pushed on him by his
marketing team, and something Romero himself apparently didn't want.
Of course, the reason it struck true is that Romero already had a bit
of a frat-bro reputation, so a lot of people just assumed the advert
was the brainchild of Romero himself. But even he thought it was a bit
over the top. So I don't really hold him accountable for that
particular stupidity.

He definitely is partly to blame for Daikatana itself, though. Not
entirely (see my previous rant about how the savant developer is
largely a myth; his team was as responsible for what Daikatana became
as Romeo himself), but definitely some of the fault for Daikatana lies
on Romero's shoulders. ;-)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 11:24:01 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 19:48:17 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
><rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 19:08:55 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
>><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Which is why I so dislike any hype revolving around any single
>>>developer being singled out when a new project is announced. It
>>>doesn't really matter how talented that one person is when your team
>>>numbers in the dozens or hundreds.
>>>
>>>Especially when that one person's last significant success story was
>>>three decades in the past.
>
>>And has a glaring failed attempt at bitch-making on his resume.
>
>Although this infamous advertisment was actually pushed on him by his
>marketing team, and something Romero himself apparently didn't want.
>Of course, the reason it struck true is that Romero already had a bit
>of a frat-bro reputation, so a lot of people just assumed the advert
>was the brainchild of Romero himself. But even he thought it was a bit
>over the top. So I don't really hold him accountable for that
>particular stupidity.
>
>He definitely is partly to blame for Daikatana itself, though. Not
>entirely (see my previous rant about how the savant developer is
>largely a myth; his team was as responsible for what Daikatana became
>as Romeo himself), but definitely some of the fault for Daikatana lies
>on Romero's shoulders. ;-)

The thing is the ad campaign is just a remnant of the real problem
(that Daikatana sucked). I doubt any gamers actually took offense to
the wording of the ads... the specific words weren't important... what
the ad was essentially saying, in translation, was "this game is worth
the wait and going to amaze you and raise the bar".

That paraphrased version, for purposes of Romero's career, is just as
big of a blemish as the wording of making someone his bitch or telling
them to suck it down.

It showed he was willing to create lots of hype long before he knew
whether the product stood a chance of living up to that hype. He can
say the marketing team made him do it (after the fact) but he was a
co-founder of the company and ultimately approved the ad campaign. Of
course he's sorry he did it later, but we would have never gotten a
chance to hear about that regret if Daikatana had been a decent game.

So if the guy came out with a great game tomorrow I wanted to play,
his rap sheet isn't going to stop me from buying it. But is it reason
to be skeptical of future releases based on past performance? Of
course it is.