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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

SubjectAuthor
* VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Paul Hardy
+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
||| +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
||| |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Charlie Gibbs
||| ||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
||| |||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| ||||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
||| |||||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| ||||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| |||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
||| ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||| ||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5scott
||| |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
||| `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||   +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||   |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Charlie Gibbs
|||   | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152
|||   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    || |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||    ||  |    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||  |    |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||  |     `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
|||    ||  `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    || `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Jim Jackson
|||    ||  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Jim Jackson
|||    ||    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||     `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Rich Alderson
|||    ||      |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||    ||      || `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Rich Alderson
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||    ||      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      | |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||      | | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      | | |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||    ||      | | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||    ||      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||      | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||      |   +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||      |   |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |     `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |      +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||      |   |      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | || `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||      |   |      | | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||      |   |      | | |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||      |   |      | | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |      `- Package management (was Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5)Dan Cross
|||    ||      |   `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
|||    ||      `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
|||    | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152
|||    |    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    |    |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Robert Riches
|||    |    `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152

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Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<mddcywan3fl.fsf@panix5.panix.com>

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From: new...@alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: 15 Nov 2023 15:53:50 -0500
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 by: Rich Alderson - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:53 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>>> ago, if you want.

>> Emacs springs to mind.
>
> Originated outside Unix, I think.

Indeed.

> dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
> but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
> and it's at best an uneasy fit with the "do one thing well" approach of
> many of its siblings.

dd was intentionally designed to mimic the behavior of OS/360 Job Control
Language's Data Definition (DD) cards. It does that thing, and that thing
only, very well.

So dd has the Unix Nature (R).

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj3bca$ios$1@news.misty.com>

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
Organization: MGT Consulting
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:57 UTC

On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>> ago, if you want.
>
> Emacs springs to mind.

Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

But systemd always comes to my mind...

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:59:37 +0100
Organization: MGT Consulting
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 20:59 UTC

On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>>> ago, if you want.
>>
>> Emacs springs to mind.
>
> Originated outside Unix, I think.

Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
Written in TECO.

> dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
> but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
> and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of
> many of its siblings.

I have some recollection that dd's interface comes from something like
IBMs OS/360. But I could be very wrong on that one.

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<krkq4hF2ggdU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: bill.gun...@gmail.com (bill)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:05:21 -0500
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 by: bill - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05 UTC

On 11/15/2023 11:06 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:59:23 +0100
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>> ago, if you want.
>
> Emacs springs to mind.
>

Emacs has nothing to do with Unix other than the fact that
someone ported it late in the game.

bill

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj3br6$1t3nd$1@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@druck.org.uk (druck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05:42 +0000
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 by: druck - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:05 UTC

On 14/11/2023 09:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on most
> systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.

git is actually a collection of programs, when you run

git command args

it actually runs

git-command args

You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
put them on PATH, and they will run when you do

git something

---druck

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: tim...@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: 15 Nov 2023 21:42:02 GMT
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 by: TimS - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:42 UTC

On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:49:52 GMT, "Rich Alderson"
<news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:

> So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.

I don't expect Emacs any more than I expect the Spanish Inquisition.

--
Tim

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: tim...@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: TimS - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:44 UTC

On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:59:37 GMT, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

> On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>>>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>>>> ago, if you want.
>>>
>>> Emacs springs to mind.
>>
>> Originated outside Unix, I think.
>
> Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
> Written in TECO.

In commands that look like line-noise.

>> dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
>> but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
>> and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of
>> many of its siblings.
>
> I have some recollection that dd's interface comes from something like
> IBMs OS/360. But I could be very wrong on that one.

Fortunately I was able to avoid that.

--
Tim

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:34:47 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:34 UTC

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

> On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> > Emacs springs to mind.
>
> Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...

True - Teco editing macros originally.

> But systemd always comes to my mind...

I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's
not even remotely portable.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:27:37 +0100
Organization: MGT Consulting
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:27 UTC

On 2023-11-15 22:42, TimS wrote:
> On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:49:52 GMT, "Rich Alderson"
> <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>> So there's no reason to expect Emacs to be a Unix style program.
>
> I don't expect Emacs any more than I expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody...

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:29:46 +0100
Organization: MGT Consulting
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:29 UTC

On 2023-11-15 22:44, TimS wrote:
> On 15 Nov 2023 at 20:59:37 GMT, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-15 18:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just disagreeing
>>>>> without getting into any further discussions. I can certainly dig up
>>>>> other tools under Unix which left the "unix paradigm" behind a long time
>>>>> ago, if you want.
>>>>
>>>> Emacs springs to mind.
>>>
>>> Originated outside Unix, I think.
>>
>> Yes. PDP-10s. If it was ITS or TOPS-20 at the start, I dare not say.
>> Written in TECO.
>
> In commands that look like line-noise.

It has been described as a write-only language. Not undeservedly.

That said - I do like to use TECO once in a while. It's still a pretty
good tool.

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:30:59 +0100
Organization: MGT Consulting
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:30 UTC

On 2023-11-15 22:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> But systemd always comes to my mind...
>
> I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
> on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's
> not even remotely portable.

Yeah. It's a monster. And tries to do all kind if stuff. Talk about
breaking the Unix paradigm...

Yes, I try to avoid Linux myself as well.

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: bqt...@softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:33:45 +0100
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 by: Johnny Billquist - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:33 UTC

On 2023-11-15 22:05, druck wrote:
> On 14/11/2023 09:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
>> most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.
>
> git is actually a collection of programs, when you run
>
>     git command args
>
> it actually runs
>
>     git-command args
>
> You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
> put them on PATH, and they will run when you do
>
>     git something

Yes. Some extensions are done that way. But the git binary itself is
reponsible for the most core things, like committing, pushing, pulling...

So no, there is no git-pull, no git-add, no git-merge and so on. But
there are some git-<command> binaries.

Maybe you could possibly call git a hybrid in this context.

Johnny

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Scott Dorsey - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 22:58 UTC

In article <uj1tno$1lkjn$1@dont-email.me>,
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
>On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>> X> $ purge foobar.txt
>>>
>> Yes, I remember those periodic purges.
>>
>> I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach
>> customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that
>> editor I might even be using it still.
>>
>
>If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
>SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
>floating about.

It wasn't so much ported as rewritten from the bottom up when the
folks at Boston Business Computing released nu/TPU which was a
TPU-compatible package. It works really well, too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:01:40 +0000
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:01 UTC

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> Source management is usually handled by one single program, even on
>> most systems today. Be that cvs, svn, git or whatever.
>
> git is actually a collection of programs, when you run
>
> git command args
>
> it actually runs
>
> git-command args

Might have been once, but not any more.

$ strace -etrace=execve -f git clone whatever
execve("/usr/bin/git", ["git", "clone", "whatever"], 0x7fffeebfa9e0 /* 54 vars */) = 0
fatal: repository 'whatever' does not exist
+++ exited with 128 +++

> You can even write your own git utilities, call them git-something and
> put them on PATH, and they will run when you do
>
> git something

I think that remains true.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<krl3spF2ggdU2@mid.individual.net>

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From: bill.gun...@gmail.com (bill)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:51:53 -0500
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 by: bill - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:51 UTC

On 11/15/2023 5:30 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-11-15 22:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>
>>> But systemd always comes to my mind...
>>
>>     I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
>> on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently
>> it's
>> not even remotely portable.
>
> Yeah. It's a monster. And tries to do all kind if stuff. Talk about
> breaking the Unix paradigm...
>
> Yes, I try to avoid Linux myself as well.

I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.
For real computing I use real OSes. :-)

bill

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: alex.bu...@munted.eu (Single Stage to Orbit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:51:13 +0000
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 by: Single Stage to Orbi - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:51 UTC

On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > But systemd always comes to my mind...
>
>         I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing
> not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
> Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
exist. This is one of them.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: alex.bu...@munted.eu (Single Stage to Orbit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:55:53 +0000
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 by: Single Stage to Orbi - Wed, 15 Nov 2023 23:55 UTC

On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > But systemd always comes to my mind...
>
> I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing
> not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
> Apparently it's not even remotely portable.

I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
exist. This is one of them.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: new...@cct-net.co.uk (Chris Townley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:00:26 +0000
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 by: Chris Townley - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:00 UTC

On 15/11/2023 22:58, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <uj1tno$1lkjn$1@dont-email.me>,
> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:
>> On 14/11/2023 23:58, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:24:59 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>> X> $ purge foobar.txt
>>>>
>>> Yes, I remember those periodic purges.
>>>
>>> I did like the customisable editor too and, IIRD, the ability to attach
>>> customisations to file types. If there was an open source version of that
>>> editor I might even be using it still.
>>>
>>
>> If you mean EVE based on Vax/TPU it was ported to Unix, circa ~1995,
>> SunOS, or possibly Solaris. So it is possible there is a version
>> floating about.
>
> It wasn't so much ported as rewritten from the bottom up when the
> folks at Boston Business Computing released nu/TPU which was a
> TPU-compatible package. It works really well, too.
> --scott

Is nu/TPU still available anywhere. Sector 7 web site doesn't give any
details, except that another produced it and the company that I found a
link to elsewhere seemed to be no more

--
Chris

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116012245.0711fe11715a8970a80855d4@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:22:45 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:22 UTC

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:51:53 -0500
bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:

> I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.

I use FreeBSD and MacOS for desktops.

> For real computing I use real OSes. :-)

For real computing I use FreeBSD.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: 56d.1...@ztq9.net (56d.1152)
Organization: polymer illumination
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:47:55 -0500
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 by: 56d.1152 - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 05:47 UTC

On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>>> I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big
>>> systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
>>> containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
>>> Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
>>> they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN
>>> storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
>>> Infrastructure as a service they call it.
>>
>> Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.
>
> Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
> the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
> having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
> private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.

Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
but on its mainframes ......

Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
claims.

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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Organization: polymer illumination
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 by: 56d.1152 - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:13 UTC

On 11/15/23 6:55 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Wed, 2023-11-15 at 21:34 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> But systemd always comes to my mind...
>>
>> I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing
>> not seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
>> Apparently it's not even remotely portable.
>
> I've banned systemd from all my Linux systems. Some things should not
> exist. This is one of them.
> --
> Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Now, now .... systemd *does* have some good
uses. The downside is that how/what it does
is a bit ... well ... complicated. Not AS bad
as the Winders registry, but getting there.

I like it because it'll monitor/restart daemons
and start them at the right phase of things. Sure,
you CAN do that all yourself, but, now, WHY ?

OTOH I'll not knock those who stick with the old
methods - those work too and are WELL documented
and versatile.

These are two APPROACHES to a number of common
issues. Neither is 'evil', neither is 'wrong'.

As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
"library version problem". I've seen NO good
fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.
I think it's the reason we're seeing more and
more apps appearing as executables rather than
as typical linix/unix "packages/ports".

Hate to say it, but I
*encourage* this - after an experience trying
to install an alt version of FFMPEG, the
"requires" tree was just TOO damned much, TOO
damned destructive. Gimme something compiled
with all it needs built right in rather than
trying to compile from scratch with no slack
in *exactly* what it expects to be co-installed.

In this respect Winders IS actually "better".
Hell, through XP/Vista I could still run ANCIENT
apps, No Problem. The main prob became not
Winders, but Intel dropping 8/16

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:09:20 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:09 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:13:21 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Now, now .... systemd *does* have some good
> uses. The downside is that how/what it does
> is a bit ... well ... complicated. Not AS bad
> as the Winders registry, but getting there.
>
> I like it because it'll monitor/restart daemons
> and start them at the right phase of things. Sure,
> you CAN do that all yourself, but, now, WHY ?

BSD rc plus daemontools does everything I have ever needed in that
regard - granted SysV rc is a mess.

> As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
> "library version problem". I've seen NO good
> fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.

FreeBSD ports and NetBSD pkgsrc both work well. I've not had a
library version issue in a *long* time - except at work where I have to
deal with Linux.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 07:45 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:47:55 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
> > Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and
> > allow the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure
> > without having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads
> > in a private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.
>
> Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
> are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
> tablets.

No most corporate use of Kubernetes is on data centres full of
blades, NVMe based SANs, NetApps and Isilon clusters. This is the world
that pays my wages - I know how big it is and who uses it, including
outfits the size you're talking about, many of them are customers of my
current and previous employers.

> IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
> but on its mainframes ......

Yes they are popular with banks and the like because they *also*
run their old OS-360 stuff without recompiling it, but to anyone who
doesn't need that they are very expensive for little gain. Guess what many
of their customers run in the RHEL environments - yep kubernetes and docker.

> Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
> claims.

Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine failures
and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right up until you
can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable solution.
kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

I was involved in doing it the hard way back in 1990 when the UK
Inland Revenue had a problem their ICL mainframe team declared impossible,
twenty high end 88k boxes and a distributed architecture made it possible.
No mainframe could match the IO bandwidth or CPU power of that solution,
using it effectively took careful design.

SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they
control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that
run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

The big trend in large users these days is micro-services in docker
containers. Instead of an OS image running in the container there is only
the application and support libraries running on bare virtual metal.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: news0...@eager.cx (Bob Eager)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: 16 Nov 2023 08:14:00 GMT
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 by: Bob Eager - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:14 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:22:45 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:51:53 -0500 bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I use Linux. As a desktop just like I use Windows.
>
> I use FreeBSD and MacOS for desktops.
>
>> For real computing I use real OSes. :-)
>
> For real computing I use FreeBSD.

+1

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Pancho - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 09:00 UTC

On 15/11/2023 23:51, bill wrote:

>
> I use Linux.  As a desktop just like I use Windows.
> For real computing I use real OSes.  :-)
>

For any computing, I like to have good driver support.

For real computing, I use Docker.

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