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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

SubjectAuthor
* VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Paul Hardy
+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
||| +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
||| |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Charlie Gibbs
||| ||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
||| |||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| ||||+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
||| |||||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| ||||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
||| |||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
||| ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||| ||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5scott
||| |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
||| `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||   +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||   |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Charlie Gibbs
|||   | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152
|||   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    || |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Martin Gregorie
|||    ||  |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||    ||  |    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||  |    |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||  |    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||  |     `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Chris Townley
|||    ||  `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    || +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    || `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Jim Jackson
|||    ||  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Jim Jackson
|||    ||    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||     `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Rich Alderson
|||    ||      |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||    ||      || `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Rich Alderson
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5TimS
|||    ||      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    ||      | |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||      | | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      | | |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|||    ||      | | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Pancho
|||    ||      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||      | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    ||      |   +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||      |   |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |     `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |      +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||      |   |      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | |+* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | ||`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | || `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Scott Dorsey
|||    ||      |   |      | | +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Arne Vajhøj
|||    ||      |   |      | | |`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    ||      |   |      | | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5The Natural Philosopher
|||    ||      |   |      | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    ||      |   |      | `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    ||      |   |      `- Package management (was Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5)Dan Cross
|||    ||      |   `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
|||    ||      `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5bill
|||    |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
|||    | +- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Johnny Billquist
|||    | `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Richard Kettlewell
|||    |  `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    |   `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152
|||    |    +* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|||    |    |`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Robert Riches
|||    |    `- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Single Stage to Orbit
|||    `* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5druck
||`- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
|+- Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Bob Eager
|`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5Ahem A Rivet's Shot
`* Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 556d.1152

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Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<ed0f01f05531385c7208ed9a80baa24eae54f750.camel@munted.eu>

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From: alex.bu...@munted.eu (Single Stage to Orbit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:50:58 +0000
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 by: Single Stage to Orbi - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:50 UTC

On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 01:13 -0500, 56d.1152 wrote:
>    As for Linux/Unix though - THE issue is the
>    "library version problem". I've seen NO good
>    fixes for that. It's becoming a serious prob.
>    I think it's the reason we're seeing more and
>    more apps appearing as executables rather than
>    as typical linix/unix "packages/ports".

These are solved issues for me personally since my distro is Gentoo.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116102105.ca4f7cee035f2ded84af5503@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:21 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:47:55 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
> are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of

McDonald's don't use mainframes they use AWS which mostly uses -
you guessed it - kubernetes.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj4sss$27qnh$5@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02 UTC

On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-15 17:06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>>> Emacs springs to mind.
>>
>> Well - Emacs don't really come from the Unix world to start with...
>
> True - Teco editing macros originally.
>
>> But systemd always comes to my mind...
>
> I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not seen
> on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux). Apparently it's
> not even remotely portable.
>
Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got
bored and is looking at something else to fuck up beyond all recognition.
Anther 50 man years of debugging and rewriting init scripts and quietly
discarding its worst stupidities and it will be no worse than X windows,
JavaScript, or PostScript.

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116113834.6931e7522feb0ea07c1e9bbf@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:38 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100

> > I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not
> > seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
> > Apparently it's not even remotely portable.
> >
> Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got

It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
enough to write it off for me.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj53oj$296uc$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dav...@tsoft-inc.com (Dave Froble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Dave Froble - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:00 UTC

On 11/16/2023 12:47 AM, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big
>>>> systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
>>>> containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
>>>> Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
>>>> they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN
>>>> storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
>>>> Infrastructure as a service they call it.
>>>
>>> Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.
>>
>> Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
>> the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
>> having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
>> private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.
>
>
> Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
> are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
> tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
> but on its mainframes ......
>
> Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
> claims.

Yeah ...

Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather quickly that
they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just how much business
they can now handle, and, it's taking much more manpower. "But, it's what
everyone else does." Really?

Not that we gave them much of a choice. Either take over our software, which
was offered, or find another solution. They didn't want to be in the software
business. Not sure what anyone would call all the human labor is to support
their "cloud solution".

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: alex.bu...@munted.eu (Single Stage to Orbit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:18:45 +0000
Organization: One very high maintenance cat
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 by: Single Stage to Orbi - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:18 UTC

On Thu, 2023-11-16 at 11:38 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it,
> > got
>
>         It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
> enough to write it off for me.

IATWP.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: arn...@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Arne Vajhøj - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:20 UTC

On 11/16/2023 8:00 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions".  They learned rather
> quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities.  Not sure
> just how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more
> manpower.  "But, it's what everyone else does."  Really?

I would think the capabilities depend on the software
and not on where it is hosted.

I assume they made two changes at the same time:
* dedicated physical system -> public cloud
* application X -> application Y

The loss of capabilities has to be because of the
second bullet.

If your application had been ported to VMS x86-64 and
the customers had deployed it in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI then
it would have worked as well as always.

Arne

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: arn...@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:26:33 -0500
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 by: Arne Vajhøj - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:26 UTC

On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 15/11/2023 21:34, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 21:57:45 +0100
>>> I try not to let it <shudder> - anyway that's a Linux thing not
>>> seen on any other unix (it's one reason I tend to avoid Linux).
>>> Apparently it's not even remotely portable.
>>>
>> Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got
>
> It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
> enough to write it off for me.

Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux
is coupled with Linux?

The code in VMS that execute SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM
and SYS$MANGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM are probably not
portable to any other OS either.

(but likely only 1/100'th of the code in systemd)

Arne

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: arn...@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Arne Vajhøj - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:33 UTC

On 11/16/2023 12:47 AM, 56d.1152 wrote:
> On 11/15/23 9:43 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:06:00 -0500
>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2023 2:44 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>     I don't know about McDonald's but these days a lot of really big
>>>> systems run as a large (and variable) number of micro-services in
>>>> containers under Kubernetes. Scalability is the watchword today.
>>>> Sometimes they run on Z/OS machines (usually running Linux) otherwise
>>>> they run on a mix of blade servers (CPU and RAM tightly packed) and SAN
>>>> storage (lots of NVMe SSDs) connected with 40Gb or 100Gb ethernet.
>>>> Infrastructure as a service they call it.
>>>
>>> Most run such workloads in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI.
>>     Of course, these environments are built for that purpose and allow
>> the systems developers to assume the Kubernetes infrastructure without
>> having to maintain it. But it is possible to run such workloads in a
>> private data centre - "TrueNAS Scale" is one fairly easy way.
>
>   Sorry, but McDonalds Corporate, BOA, US Mil, etc ... they
>   are NOT gonna work on Docker or Kubernetes on a bunch of
>   tablets. IBM didn't pay big for RHEL to run it on laptops,
>   but on its mainframes ......

RHEL big market is x86-64 servers. Mainframe is a small part
(too few mainframes, only some of them running Linux and
RHEL is just one out of many Linux distros used on mainframe).

Arne

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Scott Dorsey - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:36 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> Yes they are popular with banks and the like because they *also*
>run their old OS-360 stuff without recompiling it, but to anyone who
>doesn't need that they are very expensive for little gain. Guess what many
>of their customers run in the RHEL environments - yep kubernetes and docker.

The IBM systems are I/O machines. The CPU is just sitting there telling the
I/O controllers what to do and most of the real work is being done by other
hardware outside the CPU. So you can have incredibly high workloads and
huge transation rates with relatively slow CPUs.

This was a huge win as late as a decade ago, but these days it's not that
much of a win unless you have a write-mostly database that is inefficient
to distribute. Because CPU has become so damn cheap that we just throw
CPU at problems now.

>> Decentralized usually = SLOW ... and INSECURE ... despite
>> claims.
>
> Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
>Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine failures
>and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right up until you
>can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable solution.
>kubernetes is an easy way to get one.

This is true, but Amazon and Google -are- still slow and insecure in ways
that I don't think is apparently obvious. Instead of keeping one thing
secure, you have thousands upon thousands to keep secure.

> SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
>virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
>only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
>sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they
>control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that
>run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).

This is where the scary part is, yes.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 13:50 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:26:33 -0500
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> > It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
> > enough to write it off for me.
>
> Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux
> is coupled with Linux?

Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had
portability as a major feature. You can use SysV or BSD init (Linux used to
use SysV init) on Linux or any other unix quite easily. You cannot use
systemd on anything unix than Linux - and yes there are still many unix
systems that are not Linux.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
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Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 14:59 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:00:11 -0500
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

> Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather
> quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just
> how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more
> manpower. "But, it's what everyone else does." Really?

So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way you
could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is distributed,
scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual consistency
rather than ACID which does not scale.

McDonald's did it well.

<https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/
>

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj5dp9$2aq1i$1@dont-email.me>

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From: arn...@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:51:04 -0500
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 by: Arne Vajhøj - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 15:51 UTC

On 11/16/2023 9:59 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:00:11 -0500
> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather
>> quickly that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just
>> how much business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more
>> manpower. "But, it's what everyone else does." Really?
>
> So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
> without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way you
> could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is distributed,
> scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual consistency
> rather than ACID which does not scale.

I believe Amazon is using many different databases.

Some that provide traditional consistency (MySQL and AuroraDB) and
some that provide eventual consistency (DynamoDB and SimpleDB).

> McDonald's did it well.
>
> <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/

It seems that article is about DWH not operational data. Different.

Arne

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116154637.5a2c14bd2b6fe7f99bb381af@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 15:46 UTC

On 16 Nov 2023 13:36:17 -0000
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

> The IBM systems are I/O machines. The CPU is just sitting there telling
> the I/O controllers what to do and most of the real work is being done by
> other hardware outside the CPU. So you can have incredibly high
> workloads and huge transation rates with relatively slow CPUs.

Yes you can but ...

> This was a huge win as late as a decade ago, but these days it's not that
> much of a win unless you have a write-mostly database that is inefficient
> to distribute. Because CPU has become so damn cheap that we just throw
> CPU at problems now.

Back in 1990 I was involved in designing a system that could not
have been run on the mainframes of the day because they had insufficient IO
bandwidth but a distributed solution spread across twenty high end 88K
machines did.

> > Tell that to Amazon, Google etc. look into the architecture of
> >Amazon Dynamo and marvel at the way it scales and handles machine
> >failures and network outages. Mainframes are great up to a point, right
> >up until you can't get one big enough and then you *need* a scalable
> >solution. kubernetes is an easy way to get one.
>
> This is true, but Amazon and Google -are- still slow and insecure in ways
> that I don't think is apparently obvious. Instead of keeping one thing
> secure, you have thousands upon thousands to keep secure.

Yes but instead of trying to secure each one individually you write
rules which are used by the deployment engine (kubernetes usually).

A single instance implemented on virtual hardware is certainly
slower than the same thing implemented on bare metal - the win comes from
having a scalable design. The artful part is making the design scalable and
not putting bottlenecks in it. If the single instance is 1/10th the speed
of bare metal but you can run a thousand instances in parallel then you
have 100 times the speed of bare metal.

> > SAAS is huge in the large corporate world, it all runs on
> >virtual machines and docker containers orchestrated by kubernetes. It's
> >only insecure if you don't know how to secure it, the most security
> >sensitive run it all in their own datacentres on hypervisors that they
> >control. The rest trust the contractual obligations of the companies that
> >run the data centres (Microsoft, Google and Amazon mostly).
>
> This is where the scary part is, yes.

Yes it is - that's why my data lives at home. I don't need scalable
solutions thankfully. Those who do and care a lot run their own.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28:27 +0000
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough
>>> to write it off for me.
>>
>> Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
>> Linux?
>
> Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had
> portability as a major feature.

Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools to
other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?

(Some of them _are_ somewhat portable, and the GNU project in
particulary lists tool portability as a goal, albeit with some nuance,
but that’s not the same thing.)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:35 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>> Well. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm fine with just
>>> disagreeing without getting into any further discussions. I can
>>> certainly dig up other tools under Unix which left the "unix
>>> paradigm" behind a long time ago, if you want.
>>
>> Emacs springs to mind.
>
> Originated outside Unix, I think.
>
> dd seems like a good example. Present at least as far back as V5 Unix
> but its interface is belligerently different from any other Unix tool,
> and it’s at best an uneasy fit with the “do one thing well” approach of
> many of its siblings.

Oh, and the kernel is an example, of course. Process management, memory
management, hardware drivers, multiple quite different kinds of IO and
some other stuff, all in a single monolithic whole. Completely the
opposite of the “do one thing well” principle. The reasons for this
aren’t terrible but let’s not pretend that the Unix kernel is an
examplar of the Unix philosophy l-)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:33 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:51:04 -0500
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> On 11/16/2023 9:59 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> > So they did it badly - not uncommon. Amazon could not function
> > without a distributed, scalable, fault tolerant system, there's no way
> > you could run Amazon mainframe style. Even their core database is
> > distributed, scalable and fault tolerant relying on guaranteed eventual
> > consistency rather than ACID which does not scale.
>
> I believe Amazon is using many different databases.

AWS provides many databases. Dynamo was created to support Amazon's
original core business of being a huge international shopping site.

> > McDonald's did it well.
> >
> > <https://www.ciodive.com/news/mcdonalds-cloud-ETL-talend-digital-transformation/523132/
>
> It seems that article is about DWH not operational data. Different.

It's about analytics that record every sale in every McDonald's in
the world and drives their decision making. The point is that it scales
beyond anything that could be done on a mainframe.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 17:03 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28:27 +0000
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> > Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> >> On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> >>> It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough
> >>> to write it off for me.
> >>
> >> Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
> >> Linux?
> >
> > Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had
> > portability as a major feature.
>
> Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools to
> other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?

It's always been a goal in the unix world - which Linux seems to be
leaving.

Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools provided
by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to be portable
across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more than today).
Apart from systemd the only things I know of that only run on Linux and not
on any other unix are commercial closed source binaries - and even most of
them can be run on FreeBSD using the Linux compatibility layer.

The other major camp of open source unix shares code very freely -
NetBSD's pkgsrc was originally based on FreeBSD ports and is used in
DragonFLyBSD for example. AT&T's SysVR4 was able to incorporate code from
BSD and XENIX because the code was designed to be portable.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116180203.ef4a440a9fe31aa69f16237d@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:02:03 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:02 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:35:59 +0000
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Oh, and the kernel is an example, of course. Process management, memory
> management, hardware drivers, multiple quite different kinds of IO and
> some other stuff, all in a single monolithic whole. Completely the
> opposite of the “do one thing well” principle. The reasons for this
> aren’t terrible but let’s not pretend that the Unix kernel is an
> examplar of the Unix philosophy l-)

Excellent point - there's the Mach kernel of course which gets
closer.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:08:03 +0000
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:08 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 16:28:27 +0000
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>> On 11/16/2023 6:38 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's enough
>>>>> to write it off for me.
>>>>
>>>> Is it surprising that a startup system for Linux is coupled with
>>>> Linux?
>>>
>>> Yes given that Linux purports to be a unix which has always had
>>> portability as a major feature.
>>
>> Portability to different CPUs, sure, but portability of system tools
>> to other kernels? Who ever said that was a goal of Linux as such?
>
> It's always been a goal in the unix world - which Linux seems to be
> leaving.

Maybe. It was certainly convenient for certain components to be
portable, like X11 as you mention, but I think it’s a stretch to infer
that there was a widely shared goal that the lower-level system tools
should be portable too. Things like, say, package management and device
driver handling have been very different across platforms for a very
long time (the former in fact even within Linux).

In the more recent case of systemd, a lot of the functionality depends
on Linux-specific interfaces. Porting it would presumably be a
non-starter until this existed in some form in other operating systems,
and nobody maintaining other operating systems seems to be interested in
doing so.

> Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools provided
> by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to be portable
> across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more than today).

That doesn’t make it a goal _of Linux_, even if it was a goal of the GNU
and X11 projects.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231116202030.13bf46cf2673886ec48cc75c@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 20:20:30 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 20:20 UTC

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:08:03 +0000
Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Maybe. It was certainly convenient for certain components to be
> portable, like X11 as you mention, but I think it’s a stretch to infer
> that there was a widely shared goal that the lower-level system tools
> should be portable too. Things like, say, package management and device
> driver handling have been very different across platforms for a very
> long time (the former in fact even within Linux).

Package management is a relatively new feature of unix (it's
about half the age of unix) - but NetBSD's pkgsrc is designed to be portable
and can be used on pretty much any unix including Linux. The FreeBSD ports
system (one of the first) is written in make and the system (but not the
ports themselves) would be easy enough to get going on any other unix with
a BSD compatible make available.

Device drivers are of course largely kernel dependent and generally
not portable - notable exception for DRI/DRM which are surprisingly
portable. That being said it is quite common to port device drivers between
the BSDs despite the divergence in the kernels over the years, none of them
would take Linux device drivers because GPL.

> In the more recent case of systemd, a lot of the functionality depends
> on Linux-specific interfaces. Porting it would presumably be a

Apart from systemd every other init system is shell script based
and reasonably easy to port, systemd is a huge departure from convention.

> non-starter until this existed in some form in other operating systems,
> and nobody maintaining other operating systems seems to be interested in
> doing so.

Nobody maintaining other operating systems wants them to become
Linux based which is essentially what would be needed.

> > Linux as an operating system exists because all the tools
> > provided by the GNU project and MIT X-Windows and ... were designed to
> > be portable across every variant of unix extant at the time (a lot more
> > than today).
>
> That doesn’t make it a goal _of Linux_, even if it was a goal of the GNU
> and X11 projects.

You missed the "and ...", Linux based OSs are the odd ones out in
this regard which is sad given that Linux as an OS owes its entire
existence to the fact that everyone else in the unix world cares about
portability. Without the GNU project's portable utilities there would be no
Linux distros, there wouldn't even be a compiler to build the kernel! If
MIT had chosen to make X11 tightly bound to a single kernel there would be
no Linux graphics.

IMHO it should be a goal of Linux OS development to be a good
member of the unix community without which there would be no Linux. But
you're right it seems that it isn't something that RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu
et al care about.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj60pm$2e2jg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: new...@druck.org.uk (druck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 21:15:34 +0000
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 by: druck - Thu, 16 Nov 2023 21:15 UTC

On 16/11/2023 11:38, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 11:02:52 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Systemd will be fine now Poettering has finished pottering with it, got
>
> It's never going to be portable to anything but Linux, that's
> enough to write it off for me.

As time goes on it becomes easier to port other OS's to systemd, simply
by deleting all of the stuff which duplicates the ever increasing
functionality provided by systemd.

:)

---druck

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<uj6amb$2flvm$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dav...@tsoft-inc.com (Dave Froble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi,comp.os.vms
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
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 by: Dave Froble - Fri, 17 Nov 2023 00:04 UTC

On 11/16/2023 8:20 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/16/2023 8:00 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> Our former clients moved to "cloud solutions". They learned rather quickly
>> that they would not have their prior capabilities. Not sure just how much
>> business they can now handle, and, it's taking much more manpower. "But, it's
>> what everyone else does." Really?
>
> I would think the capabilities depend on the software
> and not on where it is hosted.
>
> I assume they made two changes at the same time:
> * dedicated physical system -> public cloud
> * application X -> application Y
>
> The loss of capabilities has to be because of the
> second bullet.
>
> If your application had been ported to VMS x86-64 and
> the customers had deployed it in AWS/Azure/GCP/OCI then
> it would have worked as well as always.

I would agree, however, everyone in the company was well over retirement age.
We offered to help them set up their own shop. I guess they found it an
opportunity to switch to WEENDOZE.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<slrnuldoql.29d.spamtrap42@one.localnet>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8172&group=comp.sys.raspberry-pi#8172

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From: spamtra...@jacob21819.net (Robert Riches)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: 17 Nov 2023 03:51:49 GMT
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 by: Robert Riches - Fri, 17 Nov 2023 03:51 UTC

On 2023-11-16, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 01:13:21 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Now, now .... systemd *does* have some good
>> uses. The downside is that how/what it does
>> is a bit ... well ... complicated. Not AS bad
>> as the Winders registry, but getting there.
>>
>> I like it because it'll monitor/restart daemons
>> and start them at the right phase of things. Sure,
>> you CAN do that all yourself, but, now, WHY ?
>
> BSD rc plus daemontools does everything I have ever needed in that
> regard - granted SysV rc is a mess.

A decade or so ago, a program called 'monit' handled monitoring
and restarting of daemons quite nicely. However, I don't know
whether it's still maintained.

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5

<20231117071346.baefadef8fe4afd93552f133@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VMS on Raspberry Pi 5
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 07:13:46 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Fri, 17 Nov 2023 07:13 UTC

On 17 Nov 2023 03:51:49 GMT
Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote:

> A decade or so ago, a program called 'monit' handled monitoring
> and restarting of daemons quite nicely. However, I don't know
> whether it's still maintained.

monit 5.3.3 released Feb 2023 is in FreeBSD ports. So yes it is
still maintained and quite popular.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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