I have a Pi 3B, fresh install of Bookworm aarch64. I have installed only a few packages, nothing network related. I updated the index, upgraded all stock packages, and enabled VNC. Bonjour doesn't work this time, but I'm used to that being a crapshoot. I did reboot after the last raspi-config session. Network is good, ssh works (even -Y), vnc is running:

jon@penguin:~$ nmap 192.168.1.128
Starting Nmap 7.80 ( https://nmap.org ) at 2023-11-15 12:41 CST
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.128
Host is up (0.063s latency).
Not shown: 997 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE
22/tcp open ssh
53/tcp open domain
5900/tcp open vnc

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 1.32 seconds

My client is a Chromebook (penguin), but it's also Arm (also aarch64), so my software selection is very limited. I have TigerVNC, and I have Remmina, but I can't install much more than that easily:

jon@penguin:~$ uname -a
Linux penguin 5.15.130-20472-g682e24dd583b #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Oct 25 18:25:04 PDT 2023 aarch64 GNU/Linux

When I try TigerVNC, I leave encryption enabled, allow None, allow TLS with anonymous certificates, disable X509 certificates (also tried allowing X509). Authentication allows None, Standard VNC, or user/pass. When I try to connect, TigerVNC reports "[ ! ] No matching security types." Remina with similar options will error and quit with "Unknown authentication scheme from VNC server: 13,5 [ Close ]."

I've read enough to know that the VNC backend on Bookworm doesn't match most of the HOWTOs online, but I'm still lost. Which switch did I forget to flip? Do I need to manually do some key generate/exchange somewhere? I'm running headless, but I do know that X applications run fine over SSH on my Chromebook display, they're just slooooow. Remina also supports RDP, but I haven't explored that option yet.

On 15/11/2023 19:07, Jon Pennington wrote:
> No matching security types

Did you Google for "Tigervnc no matching security types"? You didn't say
you had and found no fixes.

Does this fix it?

https://superuser.com/questions/1194583/tigervnc-viewer-no-matching-security-types

I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.

Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it doesn't look like it.

On 11/15/23 2:07 PM, Jon Pennington wrote:
> I have a Pi 3B, fresh install of Bookworm aarch64. I have installed only a few packages, nothing network related. I updated the index, upgraded all stock packages, and enabled VNC. Bonjour doesn't work this time, but I'm used to that being a crapshoot. I did reboot after the last raspi-config session. Network is good, ssh works (even -Y), vnc is running:
>
> jon@penguin:~$ nmap 192.168.1.128
> Starting Nmap 7.80 ( https://nmap.org ) at 2023-11-15 12:41 CST
> Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.128
> Host is up (0.063s latency).
> Not shown: 997 closed ports
> PORT STATE SERVICE
> 22/tcp open ssh
> 53/tcp open domain
> 5900/tcp open vnc
>
> Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 1.32 seconds
>
>
> My client is a Chromebook (penguin), but it's also Arm (also aarch64), so my software selection is very limited. I have TigerVNC, and I have Remmina, but I can't install much more than that easily:
>
> jon@penguin:~$ uname -a
> Linux penguin 5.15.130-20472-g682e24dd583b #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Oct 25 18:25:04 PDT 2023 aarch64 GNU/Linux
>
> When I try TigerVNC, I leave encryption enabled, allow None, allow TLS with anonymous certificates, disable X509 certificates (also tried allowing X509). Authentication allows None, Standard VNC, or user/pass. When I try to connect, TigerVNC reports "[ ! ] No matching security types." Remina with similar options will error and quit with "Unknown authentication scheme from VNC server: 13,5 [ Close ]."
>
> I've read enough to know that the VNC backend on Bookworm doesn't match most of the HOWTOs online, but I'm still lost. Which switch did I forget to flip? Do I need to manually do some key generate/exchange somewhere? I'm running headless, but I do know that X applications run fine over SSH on my Chromebook display, they're just slooooow. Remina also supports RDP, but I haven't explored that option yet.

VNC is a bit hard to secure. Some, like TightVNC, only allow
a very short password ... 8 characters, in Linux anyhow. The
ports are Well Known and there's nothing inherent to discourage
automated attacks.

(TightVNC *is* good because it very easily lets you create
independent "screens/environments" rather than just being
an echo of what the main user sees)

The Solution is to use VNC-Over-SSH ... well-documented for Linux
(though a bit of a pain via Winders). A secure "tunnel" is created.
Also NEVER expose the standard ports to The World ... use odd ports
and NAT redirects on yer router.

Alas NO remote-access tech seems super-duper "secure", no matter
how much you pay for it. Remember the SolarWinds debacle of just
a couple years ago. If you don't HAVE to have remote access
then DON'T.

As for BookWorm ... all in all THAT seems to work like always.
However I'd suggest dropping the VNC used by the PI and add
something else ... just so no secret "helpful shortcuts" remain.
Tight works well, be aware that Tiger can alter some kinda
unexpected files in /etc which prevent OTHER VNCs from
working properly. I found repair docs, but it wasn't so
easy/obvious. For now I only use Tight, but there are
several alternatives to Tiger.

BookWorm has proven to be the "Vista" of the LiniVerse.
I don't like it. Too many STUPID changes to no good
rational purpose.

Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

"Jon Pennington" <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b0f9dd01-2177-4911-8c70-c115f71e2f30n@googlegroups.com...
> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
> if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
> another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster
> than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

I configured the Real VNC server that is bundled into RasPiOS and can access
it from Real VNC client on Windows (7 and 10) and on Android 13. I didn't
need to configure anything non-standard - it "just worked".

The information at the Android client for the connection to my Pi says
"128-bit AES encryption", "JRLE encoding" and an estimated speed of 5.2
Mb/sec for a direct IP-to-IP (ie non-cloud) connection - because the server
on the Pi allows direct connections in addition to cloud connections via
RealVNCs servers.

On 16/11/2023 05:30, Jon Pennington wrote:
> I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.
>
> Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it doesn't look like it.
>

Sorry for appearing daft, but if you only have TigerVNC viewer have you
tried installing Tigervnc server on the Pi?

Just to throw a wrinkle into everything, the latest version of RealVNC
viewer, 7.8.0, will connect to a Pi4 running wayvnc. I expect it will
work with a Pi5 too.

--

Knute Johnson

On 11/17/23 2:52 PM, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 16/11/2023 05:30, Jon Pennington wrote:
>> I've been doing my own research for 3 days. I've been using Linux as a
>> desktop OS since 1996, so I've been around the block a few times, but
>> I've never had to use VNC. And now that I need to, I feel like it's
>> 1996 again and there's a dotfile somewhere that has to be hand-edited
>> with a 128-bit key. You can go ahead and use the big words with me.
>>
>> Anyway, that link, and almost everything written before RPi changed
>> the backend 3 weeks ago, basically says "Just give up and use RealVNC
>> like everybody else." But I can't do that, because there is no binary
>> RealVNC for my Chromebook in the regular repository. The release notes
>> for Bookworm openly admit that VNC isn't a workable option on RPi
>> 32-bit, but *should* still work on 64, so here I am. Because it
>> doesn't look like it.
>>
>
> Sorry for appearing daft, but if you only have TigerVNC viewer have you
> tried installing Tigervnc server on the Pi?

I think Tiger or something IS pre-installed on PIs - but
you have to use raspi-config or the GUI one to ENABLE it.

Alas Tiger has a rep for altering some low-level, poorly
documented, config files that PREVENTS some other kinds
of VNC from working ... so I'd suggest immediately installing
Tight or something else. If you install then you don't
have to use raspi-config, it's just THERE. 'vncpasswd'
to set the pass and you're basically done. Just put like
"vncserver :3 -geometry 1200x760" or nearabouts into
an autostart file, .profile SOMETIMES works.

I did this three times just last week.

Not sure why the poster is complaining about "having" to
use VNC. It's a fair remote-desktop system ... the weak
bit being that some have only 8-character passwords.
The BEST way to use it is to also enable SSH on the PI
and then use an "SSH tunnel" for VNC. This IS secure.
Docs abound. It's a weird, but not TOO long, command
line ... I just put 'em in bash scripts.

"Tight" is nice because you can have it reflected on
the dest screen OR create one or more screens the
PI user never even sees (and are maybe outside what
script-kiddie hacks will bother probing).

Jon Pennington <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote:
> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
> if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
> another console.

VNC has always worked for me with SSH forwarding, without using TLS:

$ vncpasswd
- set a password for the VNC session

$ vncserver -geometry 1920x1080 :1
- starts a VNC server on display :1, ie localhost port 5901

Then on your PC:
$ ssh -L 5901:localhost:5901 pi@192.168.1.99

to login to your Pi, and tunnel port 5901 on the Pi to port 5901 on the
local machine.

Then start your VNC client and connect to the VNC server on localhost:1

If you get a blank screen with no apps, you may need to start the desktop.
In the SSH session:

$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ startx &

You can also run X apps 'by hand', eg a terminal and window manager:

$ sudo apt install fvwm
$ export DISPLAY=:1
$ xterm &
$ fvwm &

(~/.vncsession is the place to put commands to run each time you open a new
vnc session)

> Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through
> SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

They are different. VNC is a pixel-based sharing protocol, ie it renders
things on the Pi and pushes blocks of pixels to the PC. With X, everything
is rendered on the PC - lines, fonts, etc. VNC speed depends on network
bandwidth and compression speed, but X is constrained by latency (lots of
messages flying back and forth).

X is slow if your latency is bad (eg over the internet). Protocols like
X2go and NX can speed it up because they reduce the number of roundtrips and
hence their impact on latency.

ssh -C can compress any data stream that passes through it, including VNC
traffic on a forwarded port, but the VNC traffic is already compressed by
VNC so there's not much point.

Theo

On 11/16/23 12:12 PM, Jon Pennington wrote:
> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.

Look, "it depends".

If you work in a small, known, local, environment - esp
if you are the only tech-savvy person there - then you
CAN almost forget "security". I've done the same more than
once ... but neither VNC or SSH are run on 'standard' ports,
just in case. Oh, there are a few easy SSH settings that
sabotage brute-force hacks.

As for VNC "tunnels" through SSH - no it's NOT faster, but
it's not terribly slower either. I'd rec doing it, Just Because.
Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.

On 11/17/23 10:40 AM, NY wrote:
> "Jon Pennington" <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0f9dd01-2177-4911-8c70-c115f71e2f30n@googlegroups.com...
>> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication
>> off if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics,
>> from another console. Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes
>> it faster than X through SSH? That just sounds like extra math and
>> extra CPU load.
>
>
> I configured the Real VNC server that is bundled into RasPiOS and can
> access it from Real VNC client on Windows (7 and 10) and on Android 13.
> I didn't need to configure anything non-standard - it "just worked".

Yep - it's wonderful (given previous years/decades).

I generally prefer "Tight" though because you can set
up so many virtual screens so easily. The downside,
unless they've recently changed, is kinda crappy
stream/creds encryption in Linux/Unix. If using Tight,
I still suggest SSH tunnels.

> The information at the Android client for the connection to my Pi says
> "128-bit AES encryption", "JRLE encoding" and a

n estimated speed of 5.2
> Mb/sec for a direct IP-to-IP (ie non-cloud) connection - because the
> server on the Pi allows direct connections in addition to cloud
> connections via RealVNCs servers.

AES-128 is still considered "pretty good". There ARE cracks,
but they're still computing-intensive so unless you're the
CIA or Bank Of America, not worth the effort. I use AES-128
for stuff stored on "the cloud" because it's faster, and feel
quite secure. The cloud owners ain't gonna get SHIT to sell.

Now I'm retiring. The New Guy seems to TRUST M$ and others
who offer cloud services/storage. It's a mistake, but
management has drifted towards Dilbert-ism. He's far better
than me at "modern services" fer sure, but he's not a
programmer, never deals with "system level" stuff, can't
cope with Linux/Unix stuff. It's a much more "shallow"
level of expertise. If MY info gets compromised I *will*
be suing. Good post-retirement income source dontchaknow :-)

I'm very old school, PDP-11/punchcard/VIC-20 era ... something
odd needed, WRITE IT YOURSELF. Modern = BUY SOMEONE ELSE'S
expen$ive "solution" and PRETEND as hard as you can ............

On 11/18/23 5:22 AM, Theo wrote:
> Jon Pennington <actualjp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Security is the last thing that I care about. I'd turn authentication off
>> if I knew how. I just want the computer to work, with graphics, from
>> another console.
>
> VNC has always worked for me with SSH forwarding, without using TLS:
>
> $ vncpasswd
> - set a password for the VNC session
>
> $ vncserver -geometry 1920x1080 :1
> - starts a VNC server on display :1, ie localhost port 5901
>
> Then on your PC:
> $ ssh -L 5901:localhost:5901 pi@192.168.1.99
>
> to login to your Pi, and tunnel port 5901 on the Pi to port 5901 on the
> local machine.
>
> Then start your VNC client and connect to the VNC server on localhost:1
>
> If you get a blank screen with no apps, you may need to start the desktop.
> In the SSH session:
>
> $ export DISPLAY=:1
> $ startx &
>
> You can also run X apps 'by hand', eg a terminal and window manager:
>
> $ sudo apt install fvwm
> $ export DISPLAY=:1
> $ xterm &
> $ fvwm &
>
> (~/.vncsession is the place to put commands to run each time you open a new
> vnc session)
>
>> Does VNC through SSH do compression that makes it faster than X through
>> SSH? That just sounds like extra math and extra CPU load.
>
> They are different. VNC is a pixel-based sharing protocol, ie it renders
> things on the Pi and pushes blocks of pixels to the PC. With X, everything
> is rendered on the PC - lines, fonts, etc. VNC speed depends on network
> bandwidth and compression speed, but X is constrained by latency (lots of
> messages flying back and forth).

Don't be so quick to cuss X11.

Yep, it DOES have some serious inefficiencies, but
its ultra-compatible and very "complete".

Leave Wayland for the "gamers".

> X is slow if your latency is bad (eg over the internet). Protocols like
> X2go and NX can speed it up because they reduce the number of roundtrips and
> hence their impact on latency.
>
> ssh -C can compress any data stream that passes through it, including VNC
> traffic on a forwarded port, but the VNC traffic is already compressed by
> VNC so there's not much point.

Compression is only JUST so useful. Confine it to
"from the net" applications. On a local network it
can be slower.

VNC/RDP/etc ... they're usually intended for "convenience",
not "top performance".

On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.

Not in my home they are not :-)

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe

On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
>> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
>
> Not in my home they are not :-)

Wait until you have plumbing problems !

On 25/11/2023 01:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
>>> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
>>
>> Not in my home they are not :-)
>
>   Wait until you have plumbing problems !
>
Frankly, Plumbers are unobtanium and I installed and service my own
plumbing.

Did have a sweep in a few weeks ago, and a boiler service man, but he
didn't fix the aga either.

No one wants to do repair work anymore. They want to make shitloads
installing wanky new boilers and the like.

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 11/25/23 4:21 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/11/2023 01:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>> On 11/22/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 22/11/2023 03:54, 56d.1153 wrote:
>>>> Evil actors are *everywhere* these days, oft govt-funded.
>>>
>>> Not in my home they are not :-)
>>
>>    Wait until you have plumbing problems !
>>
> Frankly, Plumbers are unobtanium and I installed and service my own
> plumbing.

Aw, they CAN be had OK ... mine is from an old family-biz.
Fair prices, prompt service, access to commercial-quality
wholesale-only thingies. But yea, that IS unusual these
days ......

MOST are a gigantic rip-off machine.

Alas I've reached an age and condition where there are things
I just *can't* do myself anymore. Finding good proxies is
always a challenge.

> Did have a sweep in a few weeks ago, and a boiler service man, but he
> didn't fix the aga either.

Have one relative in the fix-it biz. He's been useful
now and again - esp in finding parts for old equipment.

> No one wants to do repair work anymore. They want to make shitloads
> installing wanky new boilers and the like.

Most all new equipment is "wanky" these days. Cheap-ass
shit that won't last very long - and the warrantee never
QUITE covers what your problems may be.

Appliances made in the 50s/60s are still your best bet.
Not too long ago I popped into a roadside store/fuel
station out in the USA country - they had an antique
refrigerator, the kind with the big circular coil on
top - AND IT WAS STILL WORKING. Probably made 1925 or
so. Likely not the best in "energy-efficiency", but the
money saved in DURABILITY more than made up for that.

Something like :
https://discover.hubpages.com/living/GE-MONITOR-TOP-REFRIGERATOR-The-Most-Recognized-Vintage-Refrigerator

In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
https://carolinasantiqueappliances.com/Web/
or
https://www.unlimitedappliances.com/products/antique/

Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point :-)

On 11/17/23 6:42 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
> Just to throw a wrinkle into everything, the latest version of RealVNC
> viewer, 7.8.0, will connect to a Pi4 running wayvnc.  I expect it will
> work with a Pi5 too.
>

Good 2 know.

VNC still has a very useful place. It's NOT so great
for external access, but for administering LOCAL stuff
it's the quick cheap EZ solution.

For external, "SSH tunnel".

I still like "Tight" because it's so EZ to
set up multiple virtual consoles.

On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
[]
> Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂

Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
--
Cheers,
David
Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

On 11/26/23 12:53 AM, David Taylor wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>    In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>    will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
> []
>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>
> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.

Um ... so SURE of that ? :-)

The EU/UK is far more receptive to the "Greta View".

Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?

In truth a LARGE amount of energy, and CO2, has to
be dedicated to making something even as basic as
a stove or laundry washer.

Those 50s/60s construction standards - which leaned
heavily towards "durability" - may not be so archaic
as they seem.

But then none of this has anything to do with rPIs ...

Though they ARE "durable" - still getting good use
out of a few 1st-gen PIs .....

On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>    In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>    will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
> []
>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>
> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.

No it isn't.

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
"56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?

Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
can find and afford.

Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
(except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
been used.

The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
> "56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>
> Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
> can find and afford.
>
> Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
> been used.
>
> The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
>

It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out PICO
PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?

To call out an engineer to fix a $300 washing machine will likely be
$300 parts and labour.

You might as well buy a new one .

If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to pay
$1000 instead.

It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off an
automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that part.
IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled labour
market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine loom
destroyed craft weaving.

We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South
America.

The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.

Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.

I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
even returns my calls to fix it.

Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
to find that it had coked up *again* due to utterly shit fuel mandated
by the EU for 'low sulphur'...

Luckily I now have that down to less than an hour as I bought all the
right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
smash out all the carbon.

These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
Ali Express. Ore Amazon.

No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.

PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller with wifi thermostats
went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth more on ebay
than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all who helped make
it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are still logical bugs in
the (heater) programming which I will attend in due course, but in terms
of doing the switching at the right times and temperatures it is simply
awesome. So its onto project server, which is the Pi 4B, which is having
its 3D case designed...and then project oil level sensor, but that can
wait...

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 11/26/23 6:02 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
> "56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>> energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>> it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>> really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>
> Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
> can find and afford.
>
> Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement makes
> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run has
> been used.

Hmmm ... wonder if 3-D printing might solve some of
those problems ? So long as you have the measurements
or specs ...

> The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many corners
> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).

Sealed bearings CAN be a good idea, assuming you've
sealed something GOOD. Alas that's not always the
case. Trends have always been towards (and even Henry
Ford was guilty) making parts *just* good-enough for
the projected/desired lifespan.

On 11/26/23 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
>> "56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>
>>>     Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>>>     energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>>>     it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>>>     really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>>
>>     Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
>> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
>> can find and afford.
>>
>>     Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
>> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement
>> makes
>> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
>> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production run
>> has
>> been used.
>>
>>     The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
>> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
>> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
>> corners
>> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods (is
>> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
>>
>
> It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out PICO
> PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
> repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
>
> To call out an engineer to fix a $300  washing machine will likely be
> $300 parts and labour.
>
> You might as well buy a new one .
>
> If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to pay
> $1000 instead.
>
> It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off an
> automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that part.
> IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled labour
> market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine loom
> destroyed craft weaving.
>
> We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
> at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South
> America.
>
> The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
>
> Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
>
> I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
> even returns my calls to fix it.
>
> Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
> to find that it had coked up *again* due to  utterly shit fuel mandated
> by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
>
> Luckily I now have that down  to less than an hour as I bought all the
> right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
> smash out all the carbon.

Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
bad things can result.

Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
miss a vent tube somewhere ?

Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
every week there's a news story of something burning
down or entire homes exploding into splinters.

I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
national grid ... right down to the level of every
little street. That was just an unthinkable expense
and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
require electricity and typically the "used water"
is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.

> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
> Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>
> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.

Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove :-)

Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.

> PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller  with wifi thermostats
> went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth more on ebay
> than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all who helped make
> it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are still logical bugs in
> the (heater) programming which I will attend in due course, but in terms
> of doing the switching at the right times and temperatures it is simply
> awesome. So its onto project server, which is the Pi 4B, which is having
> its 3D case designed...and then project oil level sensor, but that can
> wait...

Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.

Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
thing Just In Case.