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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

SubjectAuthor
* VNC, No Matching Security TypesJon Pennington
+* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Typesmm0fmf
|`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesJon Pennington
| `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Typesmm0fmf
|  `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56d.1152
+* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56d.1152
|`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesJon Pennington
| +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesNY
| |`- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56d.1153
| +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesTheo
| |`- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56d.1153
| `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56d.1153
|  `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|   `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|    `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|     `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|      `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesDavid Taylor
|       +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesAhem A Rivet's Shot
|       | +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | | +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | | |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | | | `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | | |  `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | | +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesMartin Gregorie
|       | | |`- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesAndy Burns
|       | | `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesCharlie Gibbs
|       | |  +- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesAhem A Rivet's Shot
|       | |  +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesBob Latham
|       | |  |+* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesCharlie Gibbs
|       | |  ||+- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |  ||`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesBob Latham
|       | |  || +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | |  || |+* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesStephen Pelc
|       | |  || ||+* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | |  || |||+- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |  || |||`- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |  || ||`- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | |  || |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | |  || | `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | |  || |  `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | |  || |   +* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesRichard Falken
|       | |  || |   |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | |  || |   | `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |  || |   `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesCharlie Gibbs
|       | |  || |    `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | |  || `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       | |  |`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |  | `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesMartin Gregorie
|       | |  `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesDavid Higton
|       | |   +- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesCharlie Gibbs
|       | |   `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|       | |    `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesAhem A Rivet's Shot
|       | |     +- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesMartin Gregorie
|       | |     `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesMartin Gregorie
|       | `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|       `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|        `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
|         `* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesThe Natural Philosopher
|          `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173
`* Re: VNC, No Matching Security TypesKnute Johnson
 `- Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types56g.1173

Pages:123
Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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From: 56g.1...@ztq9.net (56g.1173)
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 by: 56g.1173 - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 04:18 UTC

On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
>> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>>     In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>>     will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
>> []
>>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>>
>> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
>
> No it isn't.

I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
appliances to go around.

However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".

You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:24:25 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:24 UTC

On 27/11/2023 03:58, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/26/23 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
>>> "56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>     Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>>>>     energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>>>>     it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>>>>     really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>>>
>>>     Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
>>> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient you
>>> can find and afford.
>>>
>>>     Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
>>> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point replacement
>>> makes
>>> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
>>> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production
>>> run has
>>> been used.
>>>
>>>     The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
>>> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of making
>>> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
>>> corners
>>> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get knighthoods
>>> (is
>>> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
>>>
>>
>> It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out
>> PICO PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
>> repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
>>
>> To call out an engineer to fix a $300  washing machine will likely be
>> $300 parts and labour.
>>
>> You might as well buy a new one .
>>
>> If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to
>> pay $1000 instead.
>>
>> It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off
>> an automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that
>> part. IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled
>> labour market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine
>> loom destroyed craft weaving.
>>
>> We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no production
>> at all. That's all done in China or some other part of Asia, or South
>> America.
>>
>> The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
>>
>> Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
>>
>> I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
>> even returns my calls to fix it.
>>
>> Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that, only
>> to find that it had coked up *again* due to  utterly shit fuel
>> mandated by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
>>
>> Luckily I now have that down  to less than an hour as I bought all the
>> right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs to
>> smash out all the carbon.
>
>   Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
>   bad things can result.
>
>   Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
>   suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
>   miss a vent tube somewhere ?
>
It runs on kerosene

It is literally a large paraffin stove.

heating oil slowly fills a baseplate with concentric rings into which
are alternately placed circular wicks, and cylinders of perforated
metal. The wicks help with lighting - in use the rings are hot enough to
vaporise the kerosene so the fuel burns as a vapor.

If the fuel level is too low the temperature drops and it starts to burn
via the wicks, produces a lot of soot and eventually goes out.

In use the baseplate where there is a pool of hot oil cokes up and
blocks the feed pipe. The hot oil essentially distils into a
vapourisable component and carbon. Fuel has been getting worse and
worse. I originally used to service it every 18 months. This last fuel
seems only to have lasted 3-4 months without coking up and it caused or
exacerbated pother issues. I.e. the stove is equipped with a sort of
carburettor. There is a float valve, and a sliding fuel flow valve which
is comprised of a vertical cylinder inside which another cylinder
slides. The inner cylinder has a slot about 10 thou wide and maybe 3/16"
long, and that slides past a hole in the outer cylinder. That's the fuel
metering - the base of the outer cylinder feed the burner.. Bad
kerosene tends to separate out and fill the slot with a sort of wax,
thereby obstructing fuel flow. I had a succession of problems with
everything.

There are no vent tubes as such

>   Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
>   every week there's a news story of something burning
>   down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
>
I am not keen on it either.
But most of the UK runs on it without dying. Statistically it is less
dangerous than firearms are in the USA. It used to be cheap, but not
anymore. Now kerosene is the cheapest.

>   I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
>   intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
>   somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
>   they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
>   national grid ... right down to the level of every
>   little street.

I was one of those people. No one listened to me. Ive been banging that
drum for over ten years now.

That was just an unthinkable expense
>   and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>   Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
>   require electricity and typically the "used water"
>   is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>
What 'used water' ?

>> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it off
>> Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>>
>> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
>
>   Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove  :-)
>
But who would accept that? A few years pack I looked inside the
'electronics' part of the local wastes disposal yard as I had some
really old PCS and CRT based TVS to get rid of. It was full of TVs -
most less than 5 years old.

>   Anyway, as for PARTS ... older usually meant "simpler" and
>   that puts them in the range of what 3-D printing can now do.
>
Yes, in many cases it does. My car features HVAC vents that rotate open
via little servos on startup. The manufacturer expects you to replace
the whole unit doe $250, but some guy on ebay is printing a little
plastic gear that replaces the shit one that always strips, and he sells
4 for £10 .

>> PS my 4 zone PI ZERO W central heating controller  with wifi
>> thermostats went live yesterday. What it replaced already looks worth
>> more on ebay than what I paid in the end, and many many thanks to all
>> who helped make it as rock solid as it now seems to be. There are
>> still logical bugs in the (heater) programming which I will attend in
>> due course, but in terms of doing the switching at the right times and
>> temperatures it is simply awesome. So its onto project server, which
>> is the Pi 4B, which is having its 3D case designed...and then project
>> oil level sensor, but that can wait...
>
>   Sounds like a good project. Heating/cooling is always a pain
>   because such systems often use "interesting" wiring and often
>   24 volts (USA anyhow). Getting the "IQ" down just right will
>   probably take awhile. I'd suggest a good old 'fuzzy logic'
>   approach, esp if you have multiple temperature sensors.
>
Oh, we are full on 240VAC here. the 'interesting' wiring is all mine,
from 2001. When I first built the house

>   Oh ... and if the wi-fi goes down, can you still make the
>   damned heating work ? "Fail Safe" thinking needs to go
>   into it all. Oh, gas again, if you're using gas heating
>   DO look into CO/CO2 monitors that can shut off the whole
>   thing Just In Case.

If the wifi goes down that means the power has gone down and the CH wont
work anyway.

I have never had a case of long term wifi failure. A temporary wifi
outage upsets the wifi thermometers though. They need rebooting. Another
slight bug that needs fixing

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”


Click here to read the complete article
Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:38:57 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:38 UTC

On 27/11/2023 04:18, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>>>     In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>>>     will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
>>> []
>>>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>>>
>>> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
>>
>> No it isn't.
>
>   I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
>   thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
>   oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
>   no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
>   appliances to go around.
>
They did a useful thing in terms of cars, by forcing manufacturers to
release car part specifications to anyone who wanted to manufacture
aftermarket spares. Or third party independent mechanics.

But mostly the EU are owned by large companies, Arab oil interests and
Russian gas interests and the Mafia, similar to the USA.

Which is why we have windmills instead of nuclear power stations. Any
fool can erect a windmill and grab subsidies. And the gas is still
needed when the wind doesn't blow.

>   However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
>   the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
>   want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
>   much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".
>
Actually in many cases they are better.

>   You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
>   controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
>   instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.

Indeed. My latest washing machine is just such a thing. Entirely UK
made. Brushless motor that makes groaning sounds at part throttle.

Slightly cheaper than the Miele brand, but guaranteed the same.

But twice as expensive as some Italian Turkish or Korean crap.

I think that modern technology is enabling craftsmanship at a whole new
level. 3D printing, CNC machining, laser cutting - these are all
technologies that friends have. I can produce a circuit board via China
faster and cheaper than I could punch out an aluminium chassis for
valves (tubes) such as would have been the case in the 1950s. Now I can
even print plastic cases designed to fit them. Or wooden ones for that
retro look.

Its a changing world. Its up to us to try and make sure it doesn't
change too much for whatever we consider to be the 'worse'...

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: mar...@mydomain.invalid (Martin Gregorie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:44:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Martin Gregorie - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:44 UTC

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 22:58:50 -0500, 56g.1173 wrote:

> I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was intent on
> switching everyone to electric - UNTIL somebody actually DID THE
> NUMBERS and they realized they'd have to double or triple the
> capacity of the national grid ... right down to the level of every
> little street. That was just an unthinkable expense and SUDDENLY the
> govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>
....but AFAIK this is almost entirely due to the electricity used to
recharge electric road vehicles and the extra cabling needed to support
350Kw fast chargers in service stations. Not home charging: from what
I've seen in Ars Technica and The Register, existing house wiring is OK
for overnight charges
> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricity
> and typically the "used water"
> is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>
No sir: lots of water is not required: the pumps that are/were being
installed in UK houses as replacements for gas central heating are all
extracting heat from outside air (unless the garden contains a large
enough pond to allow it to be used as the heat source) and using it to
heat the water circulating through radiators and the hot water cylinder.

This water CIRCULATES through the pipes connecting radiators etc, so the
same water is used over and over: such a system doesn't require any water
from outside the house except to deal with leakage from piss poor
installation.

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:53:06 +0000
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 by: Andy Burns - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 11:53 UTC

Martin Gregorie wrote:

> 56g.1173 wrote:
>
>> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps require electricity
>> and typically the "used water"
>> is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>>
> No sir: lots of water is not required: the pumps that are/were being
> installed in UK houses as replacements for gas central heating are all
> extracting heat from outside air (unless the garden contains a large
> enough pond to allow it to be used as the heat source) and using it to
> heat the water circulating through radiators and the hot water cylinder.
>
> This water CIRCULATES through the pipes connecting radiators etc, so the
> same water is used over and over: such a system doesn't require any water
> from outside the house except to deal with leakage from piss poor
> installation.

Agreed ASHPs don't consume any water, they do produce a small amount of
condensate (as do most gas boilers).

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 18:10 UTC

On 2023-11-27, 56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

> Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
> every week there's a news story of something burning
> down or entire homes exploding into splinters.

And every day there's a news story of a car wrapping itself
around a telephone pole. I haven't given up driving yet.
We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
with.

> I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
> intent on switching everyone to electric -

The British Columbia provincial government has a wild hair
up its ass and is intent on switching everyone to electric -
to the point where there are rumours about discouraging gas
installations completely in new construction. Mind you,
the government's relation with B.C. Hydro can only be
described as incestuous.

> UNTIL
> somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
> they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
> national grid ... right down to the level of every
> little street. That was just an unthinkable expense
> and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.

Our government never did the numbers - or if they did they're
not saying anything (they're becoming quite secretive about
their machinations, at least until supporting legislation is
in place). But I'm waiting for the brownouts. Sure, there's
the Site C project - behind schedule and 100% over budget and
counting, just like other government projects - but half its
output is earmarked for LNG generation (what, gas again?) and
the other half for sale to California. And they mothballed a
gigawatt gas-fired plant that gave us backup in our back yard.

> Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
> require electricity

Oh goody, more sales for Hydro...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:01:39 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:01 UTC

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 18:10:44 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Our government never did the numbers - or if they did they're
> not saying anything

They asked an economist for them of course:

Q: What is two plus two ?
A(mathematician): Four!
A(physicist): Three point nine plus or minus point three..
A(economist): What would you like it to be?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:38:32 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:38 UTC

In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.

That depends !

If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook with
glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then you're
forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those utensils yes,
gas is better.

But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to say
induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and far
easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.

To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&. Just
that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.

YMMV.

I'll go back under my stone now. :-)

Bob.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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From: 56g.1...@ztq9.net (56g.1173)
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 by: 56g.1173 - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 03:54 UTC

On 11/27/23 5:38 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/11/2023 04:18, 56g.1173 wrote:
>> On 11/26/23 3:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2023 05:53, David Taylor wrote:
>>>> On 26/11/2023 03:39, 56g.1173 wrote:
>>>>     In the USA there are "antique appliance" companies that
>>>>     will restore/sell OLD stuff, like :
>>>> []
>>>>>     Probably banned by the UK Police State at this point 🙂
>>>>
>>>> Repair and reusability is encouraged across Europe.
>>>
>>> No it isn't.
>>
>>    I think it *used* to be ... sort of a "historical pride"
>>    thing - "STILL using great great great Grandpa's pizza
>>    oven !". There are also a lot more people now, with
>>    no more money than before, and thus not enough "old"
>>    appliances to go around.
>>
> They did a useful thing in terms of cars, by forcing manufacturers to
> release car part specifications to anyone who wanted to manufacture
> aftermarket spares. Or third party independent mechanics.
>
> But mostly the EU are owned by large companies, Arab oil interests and
> Russian gas interests and the Mafia, similar to the USA.
>
> Which is why we have windmills instead of nuclear power stations. Any
> fool can erect a windmill and grab subsidies. And the gas is still
> needed when the wind doesn't blow.
>
>>    However the EU, like the USA, seems to have shifted to
>>    the cheap-n-crappy thinking that profits China. If you
>>    want a good washing-machine expect to pay twice as
>>    much - and it still won't be 50s/60s "good".
>>
> Actually in many cases they are better.
>
>>    You could probably rebuild an old washer - Pi
>>    controller, DC motor for the swishing action,
>>    instead of a 'transmission', but it'd COST.
>
> Indeed. My latest washing machine is just such a thing. Entirely UK
> made. Brushless motor that makes groaning sounds at part throttle.
>
> Slightly cheaper than the Miele brand, but guaranteed the same.
>
> But twice as expensive as some Italian Turkish or Korean crap.
>
> I think that modern technology is enabling craftsmanship at a whole new
> level. 3D printing, CNC machining,  laser cutting - these are all
> technologies that friends have. I can produce a circuit board via China
> faster and cheaper than I could punch out an aluminium chassis for
> valves (tubes) such as would have been the case in the 1950s. Now I can
> even print plastic cases designed to fit them. Or wooden ones for that
> retro look.
>
> Its a changing world. Its up to us to try and make sure it doesn't
> change too much for whatever we consider to be the 'worse'...

Hmmm ... "Brushless DC" really means "Three Phase". Those
are pretty good, though you need an AC->DC converter and
then a DC->3Ph converter. That's two things that can
burn out.

There are various designs of 1ph->3ph converters,
I've worked with them in the field, but the good ones
have a rather BIG transformer and a cap bank.
(try RONK Industries, one of the few designs that can
put good power into the synthetic phase, but you have
to "tune" the xformer/caps for the particular motor/load)

There are actual "solid state" converters/drivers but
in the end they're AC->DC->3Ph though fairly small and
compact (and $$$). They typically require notably more
input voltage than the voltage output ... so if you're
240v you might have to provide 480v. I seem to remember
ONE that was 240 in/out however.

Lots of water and wet laundry are high mass. Shunt-wound
DC motors have more TORQUE than a 3-ph AC. Alas they also
have brushes that will eventually wear out. EZ to replace,
but still. Also, if rapidly reversing, you'll get a big
voltage spike.

Due to rare-earth magnets, there are designs
based on a wired stator and passive, supermagnet,
rotor. No brushes, but again $$$ for anything of
any size. Samarium magnets are preferable - they
resist demag better and can tolerate more heat
plus are a bit more corrosion-resistant than Neo.
These sorts of motors are sometimes found in
e-vehicle designs.

I've looked into all sorts of motors for light/medium
industrial apps. Alas there are NO perfect solutions,
for ANY app. Always trade-offs. If you want something
kinda weird, try 'written pole' motors :-)

Anyway, for a humble washing machine, "brushless DC" is
maybe the best modern compromise. The motor may be
better than its power/control circuitry though ...

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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From: 56g.1...@ztq9.net (56g.1173)
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 by: 56g.1173 - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 04:46 UTC

On 11/27/23 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/11/2023 03:58, 56g.1173 wrote:
>> On 11/26/23 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2023 11:02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 01:16:47 -0500
>>>> "56g.1173" <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>     Thing is, you really have to Do The Numbers. The
>>>>>     energy costs of refining steel/aluminum and pressing
>>>>>     it into the needed shapes for appliances - it that
>>>>>     really offset by slightly better "energy efficiency" ?
>>>>
>>>>     Generally far from it - which simply means that when you have to
>>>> replace something then you do so with the most durable and efficient
>>>> you
>>>> can find and afford.
>>>>
>>>>     Replacing something that works or can easily be repaired is daft
>>>> (except as a functional upgrade) but past a certain point
>>>> replacement makes
>>>> more sense than repair. It is a shame when that point is reached just
>>>> because parts have become unobtainable because the last production
>>>> run has
>>>> been used.
>>>>
>>>>     The good engineering trend seems to be towards reliability in
>>>> favour of maintenance - using sealed for life bearings instead of
>>>> making
>>>> repacking them easier for example. It's a pity about the "how many
>>>> corners
>>>> can we cut before it won't sell" crowd - some of whom get
>>>> knighthoods (is
>>>> it sir uncle or uncle sir ?).
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is pure economics. When a robot assembly line can e.g. spit out
>>> PICO PI boards at less than 6 minutes labour cost, for a skilled
>>> repairer...who the **** is going to fix one?
>>>
>>> To call out an engineer to fix a $300  washing machine will likely be
>>> $300 parts and labour.
>>>
>>> You might as well buy a new one .
>>>
>>> If you want one that wont break and has a 7 year guarantee expect to
>>> pay $1000 instead.
>>>
>>> It's all down to robotisation. Its far cheaper to buy a new part off
>>> an automatic production line than employ an actual human to fix that
>>> part. IT and CAD/CAM and robotisation have destroyed the skilled
>>> labour market, and the high street retail model. Just as the machine
>>> loom destroyed craft weaving.
>>>
>>> We (the West) are now a society of consumption that does no
>>> production at all. That's all done in China or some other part of
>>> Asia, or South America.
>>>
>>> The world is changing, and we can't really turn the clock back.
>>>
>>> Amazon is my high street and China is my repairman.
>>>
>>> I've been fighting a recalcitrant Aga range stove for months - no one
>>> even returns my calls to fix it.
>>>
>>> Finally I managed to dismantle the very last part and fixed that,
>>> only to find that it had coked up *again* due to  utterly shit fuel
>>> mandated by the EU for 'low sulphur'...
>>>
>>> Luckily I now have that down  to less than an hour as I bought all
>>> the right tools. Long drill for the feed pipe and wood working burrs
>>> to smash out all the carbon.
>>
>>    Be careful you don't compromise any of those tubes,
>>    bad things can result.
>>
>>    Wonder what's wrong with the gas ? Usually carbon
>>    suggests a slightly off air/fuel ratio. Did you
>>    miss a vent tube somewhere ?
>>
> It runs on kerosene
>
> It is literally a large paraffin stove.

Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
of the 3rd world.

> heating oil slowly fills a baseplate with concentric rings into which
> are alternately placed circular wicks, and cylinders of perforated
> metal. The wicks help with lighting - in use the rings are hot enough to
> vaporise the kerosene so the fuel burns as a vapor.

Sounds like the old gasoline "blow torches".

> If the fuel level is too low the temperature drops and it starts to burn
> via the wicks, produces a lot of soot and eventually goes out.
>
> In use the baseplate where there is a pool of hot oil cokes up and
> blocks the feed pipe. The hot oil essentially distils into a
> vapourisable component and carbon. Fuel has been getting worse and
> worse. I originally used to service it every 18 months. This last fuel
> seems only to have lasted 3-4 months without coking up and it caused or
> exacerbated pother issues. I.e. the stove is equipped with a sort of
> carburettor. There is a float valve, and a sliding fuel flow valve which
> is comprised of a vertical cylinder inside which another cylinder
> slides. The inner cylinder has a slot about 10 thou wide and maybe 3/16"
> long, and that slides past a hole in the outer cylinder. That's the fuel
> metering - the base of the outer  cylinder feed the burner.. Bad
> kerosene tends to separate out and fill the slot with a sort of wax,
> thereby obstructing fuel flow. I had a succession of problems with
> everything.
>
> There are no vent tubes as such
>
>
>>    Personally, I won't have gas appliances. Seems like
>>    every week there's a news story of something burning
>>    down or entire homes exploding into splinters.
>>
> I am not keen on it either.
> But most of the UK runs on it without dying. Statistically it is less
> dangerous than firearms are in the USA. It used to be cheap, but not
> anymore. Now kerosene is the cheapest.

So long as not too many people demand it.

>>    I know the UK govt had a wild hair up its ass and was
>>    intent on switching everyone to electric - UNTIL
>>    somebody actually DID THE NUMBERS and they realized
>>    they'd have to double or triple the capacity of the
>>    national grid ... right down to the level of every
>>    little street.
>
> I was one of those people. No one listened to me. Ive been banging that
> drum for over ten years now.
>
>  That was just an unthinkable expense
>>    and SUDDENLY the govt swerved towards other 'fixes'.
>>    Now it's "heat pumps", which are fine, but pumps
>>    require electricity and typically the "used water"
>>    is just dumped out somewhere. LOTS of water.
>>
> What 'used water' ?

Heat pumps extract heat from the input water (sometimes air)
to heat, and usually have a reverse mode where the water/air
is heated while cooling the home. Air CAN be used, but ground
water is more efficient and tends to hold a fairly constant
temperature year 'round. Hard to warm a home using air
that's already at freezing.

The water that has passed through, been warmed or cooled,
is the "used water". Gotta DO something with it. COULD
pump it back down, but then you're likely messing with
the source water's temperature.

https://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/heat-pumps/what-is-a-heat-pump-how-does-it-work/

>>> These days when you want something doing, do it yourself or buy it
>>> off Ali Express. Ore Amazon.
>>>
>>> No one is making a living doing it for you anymore.
>>
>>    Oh, they ARE ... by charging 300 to fix a 300 old stove  :-)
>>
> But who would accept that? A few years pack I looked inside the
> 'electronics' part of the local wastes disposal yard as I had some
> really old PCS and CRT based TVS to get rid of. It was full of TVs -
> most less than 5 years old.

Heh, I bought what was the bitter last gen of "giant tube" telly's.
The thing weighed at least 200 pounds. 48" diagonal as best
I remember. Sold it to a guy for dollar and bought a flat screen
that was bigger and weighed about 200 pounds less. Lasted the
guy about another 10 years, so he got a good deal AND was the
one who had to dispose of it :-)

"Tech waste" IS a problem. There are often rather toxic and/or
non-recyclable materials in them. Cadmium, lead and esp mercury
are a big issue. Older stuff is full of PCBs. Basically all
you can do is crush it and throw the bits into a heavily-
lined pit and "let the future deal with it".


Click here to read the complete article
Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 05:05 UTC

On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>,
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
>
> That depends !
>
> If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook with
> glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then you're
> forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those utensils yes,
> gas is better.
>
> But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to say
> induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and far
> easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
> combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
>
> To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&. Just
> that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.

I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
turn down the heat and it stops _now_. I haven't tried induction
heading, though, so I can't say how it compares.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:49:08 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:49 UTC

On 27/11/2023 19:38, Bob Latham wrote:
> in practise we found Induction was a clear practical winner.

I have used all forms of heat for cooking

There is no doubt that open flame gas is best for e,g. wok style flash
frying as the heat goes up the wok sides. It is alṣo very fast acting
and will turn a frying pan into a blast furnace quicker than you can say
"Oh fuck!"

For general domestic use induction is my favourite because its fairly
fast, and easy to clean but even then there isn't much problem for me
with my cast iron hotplate range stove or the two ceramic hobs I have.

FFS on days with power cuts I have made coffee on an open charcoal fire.

There is no 'best' - only 'different'. In practise one adapts one's
cooking styles to what one is forced to use.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:51:18 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:51 UTC

On 28/11/2023 05:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
> turn down the heat and it stops_now_. I haven't tried induction
> heading, though, so I can't say how it compares.

Its fast.

But so is my range cooker with its cast iron hotplates. you simply take
the saucepan/skillet off the hob!

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 07:01:47 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 07:01 UTC

On 28/11/2023 04:46, 56g.1173 wrote:
> On 11/27/23 5:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> It is literally a large paraffin stove.
>
>
>   Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
>   of the 3rd world.
>
They are a hall mark of a certain 'country living' style. In practice a
pretty good room heater that you can also cook on, beloved by wet muddy
dogs. Will work without electricity in the case of power cuts. So ideal
if you are rural with unreliable electricity and no gas. You can get
ones that run on electricity and gas too. But why bother? electricity is
expensive - very expensive and at the moment so too is gas.

https://www.saltirecookers.com/oil-aga-cookers

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: bob...@sick-of-spam.invalid (Bob Latham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 08:05:33 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Bob Latham - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 08:05 UTC

In article <Oye9N.132623$BbXa.67007@fx16.iad>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>, Charlie Gibbs
> > <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
> >
> > That depends !
> >
> > If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook
> > with glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then
> > you're forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those
> > utensils yes, gas is better.
> >
> > But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to
> > say induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and
> > far easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
> > combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
> >
> > To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&.
> > Just that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical
> > winner.

> I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
> turn down the heat and it stops _now_.

It does yes but Induction is also *instant* and it gets water boiling
a lot faster than gas.

> I haven't tried induction heading, though, so I can't say how it
> compares.

Yes, I thought that you probably hadn't.

I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
parameters, quite the reverse.

Bob.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: mar...@mydomain.invalid (Martin Gregorie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:14:09 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Martin Gregorie - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 13:14 UTC

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 06:49:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> There is no 'best' - only 'different'. In practise one adapts one's
> cooking styles to what one is forced to use.
>
Indeed: long ago and far away, four of us spent ten months camping and
doing all our cooking on a two burner petrol-burning Primus: petrol to
match our transport (a petrol-burning long wheelbase Landrover), which
meant that we didn't need to carry kerosene, with its bad tendency of
'flavoring' everything. We cooked in ordinary metal saucepans and frying
pan plus a disk of 3mm mild steel (perfect for making flatbreads).

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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From: nospam.R...@f1.n770.z13580.fidonet.org (Richard Falken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 08:52:08 +1300
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 by: Richard Falken - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:52 UTC

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: The Natural Philosopher to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 07:01 am

> >> It is literally a large paraffin stove.
> >
> >
> >   Wow ! Didn't know they sold those outside
> >   of the 3rd world.
> >
> They are a hall mark of a certain 'country living' style. In practice a
> pretty good room heater that you can also cook on, beloved by wet muddy
> dogs. Will work without electricity in the case of power cuts. So ideal
> if you are rural with unreliable electricity and no gas. You can get
> ones that run on electricity and gas too. But why bother? electricity is
> expensive - very expensive and at the moment so too is gas.
>
> https://www.saltirecookers.com/oil-aga-cookers
>

That sounds interesting, but when you look for something autonomous like that
you may be better served with something that boils solid fuel.

I can use my fireplace for both heating the home and cooking at the same time,
and if you aren't cooking you may also use lots of residual material as fuel.
You can feed it horse dung, your ex' love letters and mailbox spam if need be.

It is maintenance intensive, though, but also a very economical way of
roasting, frying, baking or grilling, and can be used if electric power is
unavailable. It gets hotter than Árelor's Hell so you need to watch you don't
burn the food.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Richard Falken - Mon, 27 Nov 2023 19:56 UTC

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Bob Latham to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Nov 28 2023 08:05 am

> I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> parameters, quite the reverse.
>

Induction is awesome and nowadays I would take it rather than gas, but lots of
cooking implements won't work on induction. There is also the fact it is backed
by electricity, so it can get a bit wasteful.

In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved
on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
luxury that people is not treating as such.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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From: step...@vfxforth.com (Stephen Pelc)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 21:49:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Stephen Pelc - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 21:49 UTC

On 27 Nov 2023 at 20:56:50 CET, "Richard Falken" <Richard Falken> wrote

> In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved
> on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
> luxury that people is not treating as such.

Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
as
it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@vfxforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering, Ltd. - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)78 0390 3612, +34 649 662 974
http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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From: dav...@davehigton.me.uk (David Higton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: David Higton - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:21 UTC

In message <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
> had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
> and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
> with.

We used gas for decades and were happy with it, but we moved house nearly
7 years ago and with it bought an electric cooker with induction top. We
would not go back to gas - induction is so much nicer to cook with.

More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.

Nitrogen dioxide is a powerful irritant to the lungs.

David

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Richard Falken - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 04:07 UTC

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm

> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>

That's new to me. Everybody around me uses vitroceramics with the exception of
old people clinging to old gas equipment, and rural northerns using some wood
stove (ie. Cocinas bilvaínas)

Meybe people around me is just weird :-P

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Richard Falken - Tue, 28 Nov 2023 05:16 UTC

Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
By: Stephen Pelc to All on Tue Nov 28 2023 09:49 pm

> Where I live in the campo of Murcia, most people use bottled gas for cooking
> as
> it is much cheaper (per thermal unit) than electricity.
>

I looked the stats up.

As per 2019, about half the cooktops in Spain were electric ceramic variety
(vitroceramic), a third were gas. Gas is popular in locations that see sporadic
use (like second residences), remote locations and among poorer or older
people.

Study is behind a paywall. Paywalls, ruining BBS conversation since they were
invented.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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From: 56g.1...@ztq9.net (56g.1173)
Organization: bolt stellated
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 22:36:10 -0500
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 by: 56g.1173 - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 03:36 UTC

On 11/28/23 3:05 AM, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <Oye9N.132623$BbXa.67007@fx16.iad>,
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-27, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> In article <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>, Charlie Gibbs
>>> <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And gas is so much nicer to cook with.
>>>
>>> That depends !
>>>
>>> If you need a flame for some exotic cooking or you wish to cook
>>> with glass saucepans, pure copper or aluminium (shudder) , then
>>> you're forced to use gas. In the sense that you can use those
>>> utensils yes, gas is better.
>>>
>>> But if those exclusions are not important to you then I have to
>>> say induction is much faster and just as controllable as gas and
>>> far easier to clean. In addition it does not fill your home with
>>> combustion gases and is far less likely to cause a fire.
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm NOT anti-fossil fuels or any of that &*£^%^&.
>>> Just that in practise we found Induction was a clear practical
>>> winner.
>
>> I like the fast response of gas. If a pot starts boiling over,
>> turn down the heat and it stops _now_.
>
> It does yes but Induction is also *instant* and it gets water boiling
> a lot faster than gas.
>
>> I haven't tried induction heading, though, so I can't say how it
>> compares.
>
> Yes, I thought that you probably hadn't.
>
> I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> parameters, quite the reverse.

There are potentially competing elements here - "fast",
"cheap", "convenient" and "robust" ... oh, and "safe".

A fireplace or wood/coal stove is "robust" - doesn't
matter if the whole grid disappears (though, to a fair
extent, so will anything to cook). Got a farm ? The
starving masses will take it over ... eat everything,
and then be starving again.

Alas having an actual FIRE inside your house may not
be very "safe".

Gas is fairly efficient and convenient, but suffocation
or explosion is hardly unknown. Depending it may or may
not be "cheap".

Philosopher says he has a KEROSENE stove - and that, for
now, the fuel is cheap. It's still a fire though, and
with liquid fuel that can leak.

Electric resistance stoves are maybe the best compromise,
but electric prices vary by local and if out in the sticks
may not be entirely reliable. Hot elements CAN start
fires too, but less likely than gas/kerosene.

Induction is the latest gimmick - but it still requires
electricity. Haven't experimented with them. What happens
if you, say, leave a fork or bit of tinfoil in range of
the field ? What if you're wearing a metal watch-band
and lean in too close ? What if you have a phone in your
pocket and lean-in too close ???

Solar-reflectors are cheap and safe - but likely a bad
idea for northern Europe/UK. Solar-electric ... big
up-front expense and only semi-"robust" since the cells
degrade. A wood/coal/peat/manure/whatever 'Franklin' stove
can still be working 250 years from now - I've seen it.

So there's no "best" answer. "It depends".

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

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 by: 56g.1173 - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 03:43 UTC

On 11/27/23 2:56 PM, Richard Falken wrote:
> Re: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
> By: Bob Latham to Charlie Gibbs on Tue Nov 28 2023 08:05 am
>
> > I can easily accept that some people actually need a flame not just
> > heat for their cooking and others may like all copper pots or some
> > such but for normal usage Induction doesn't get beaten by gas on any
> > parameters, quite the reverse.
> >
>
> Induction is awesome and nowadays I would take it rather than gas, but lots of
> cooking implements won't work on induction. There is also the fact it is backed
> by electricity, so it can get a bit wasteful.
>
> In Spain, most people who is not using a wood stove in a rural area has moved
> on to electric cooking because it is just more comfortable, but I think it is a
> luxury that people is not treating as such.

I fear a major economic implosion. Covid was
the final straw, but bad bad politics/economics
is speeding that along. The pols will keep the
bread and circuses coming for as long as they
can, no matter the damage, but one day ....

Then your "stove" is an open fire (so long as
there's wood) or maybe an old metal oil drum
with dried whatever in it. Electricity IS a
luxury ... most forget that it's only been
"widespread" for less than 100 years and
requires a lot of industry to KEEP it going.
The "rural USA" wasn't "electrified" until
the latter 1930s, parts of Europe even later.

Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types

<FAy9N.87596$yvY5.72101@fx10.iad>

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: VNC, No Matching Security Types
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Wed, 29 Nov 2023 03:53 UTC

On 2023-11-28, David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

> In message <EY49N.82391$cAm7.15891@fx18.iad>
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> We converted to a gas stove 20 years ago and have never
>> had any safety concerns. Mind you, it's a good installation
>> and we don't cut corners. And gas is so much nicer to cook
>> with.
>
> We used gas for decades and were happy with it, but we moved house nearly
> 7 years ago and with it bought an electric cooker with induction top. We
> would not go back to gas - induction is so much nicer to cook with.

There were unexpected benefits to us switching in the opposite
direction. A friend had just moved into a house whose stove
was shot, so we gave him our old (but serviceable) electric
(non-induction) stove. In return he gave me an old violin.
And now I'm playing bluegrass fiddle, and viola in an orchestra.
Go figure.

> More recently I learned that cooking with gas produces nitrogen dioxide
> in the house at levels that would be illegal outside! It never occurred
> to me before, but it's bleedin' obvious that a blue gas flame in air is
> going to be at temperatures that inevitably produce nitrogen dioxide.
>
> Nitrogen dioxide is a powerful irritant to the lungs.

Hmmm, hadn't heard that one. We must have good ventilation.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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