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computers / comp.ai.philosophy / My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard

SubjectAuthor
* My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Deolcott
+* Re: _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|`* Re: _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
| `- Re: _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
+- Re: _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
`- Re: _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott

1
Subject: My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++
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Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:16 UTC
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André Isaak, Ben Bacarisse, Mike Terry, Dennis Bush, Richard Damon all take the position against this tautology:

They all take the position that the fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to report that its input is non-halting.






Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5




--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.logic, sci.math
Followup: comp.theory
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 14:42 UTC
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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,
_Dennis,_Richard
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:

There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
You think there is no such thing as cancer?
drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
your choice.
sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
His brain sounds fine to me.

I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
trollish psychology.


My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

Also, he accepts that P(P) halts and that H(P,P) returns "non-halting". As Ben
says,  that's a tough hill to fight on, and the most straightforwards explanation
is that he is telling the truth.


THE STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to report that its input is non-halting.

(1) It is a fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting on the basis that its correct simulation never reaches its own final state, whether or not this simulation if ever aborted.

The simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state it keeps repeating [00000956] to [00000961] until aborted.

_P()
[00000956](01)  55              push ebp
[00000957](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
[00000959](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
[0000095c](01)  50              push eax       // push P
[0000095d](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000960](01)  51              push ecx       // push P
[00000961](05)  e8c0feffff      call 00000826  // call H(P,P)
The above keeps repeating until aborted

[00000966](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
[00000969](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
[0000096b](02)  7402            jz 0000096f
[0000096d](02)  ebfe            jmp 0000096d
[0000096f](01)  5d              pop ebp
[00000970](01)  c3              ret            // final state.
Size in bytes:(0027) [00000970]

(2) It is a fact that P(P) halts.

(3) It is a fact that P(P) and the simulated input to H(P,P) are computationally distinct thus can have different halting behavior.

P(P,P) is the first invocation of otherwise infinite recursion that is terminated on its second invocation. It is always the case that whenever infinite recursion is terminated on its second invocation that the first invocation will halt.

I think he believes he has seen something that no-one else has, and that he
can't communicate that to other people here. And I think I know what it is -
essentially his "simulating halt decider" can't get the right answer, for a
reason that isn't directly related to the so-called "Linz proof". The "infinite
nesting detector" must always detect infinite nesting one step before the
simulator it is simulating does the same.

The outermost SHD sees the infinite behavior first and must abort its simulation when it sees it or no SHD will ever abort their simulation, because each one will wait for the next one to do it.

He reasons that therefore the
"simulating halt decider" is making the right call instead of the wrong call,
by a step I can't quite follow.

However to explain this to him i too difficult. Some other posters get it.

THIS IS THE KEY STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to report that its input is non-halting.


--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.logic, sci.math
Followup: comp.theory
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 15:48 UTC
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On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:

There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
You think there is no such thing as cancer?
drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
your choice.
sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
His brain sounds fine to me.

I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
trollish psychology.

My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
Turing machines if you've never constructed one.

People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is dishonesty on their part.

The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt

Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.

Even a UTM, though not a trivial machine, isn't all that complicated. Penrose
writes one out in his book "The Emperor's New Mind". I think it occupies
about half a page, though expressed very compactly in a binary notation.

But you should write a few simpler machines before considering UTMs, much
less a modified UTM.

THIS IS THE KEY POINT WHERE ALL OF MY REVIEWERS (besides you) LIE

The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.


--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


Subject: Re:_My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.logic, sci.math
Followup: comp.theory
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:13 UTC
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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On 4/16/2022 11:07 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 16:48:51 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:

There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
You think there is no such thing as cancer?
drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
your choice.
sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
His brain sounds fine to me.

I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
trollish psychology.

My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
dishonesty on their part.

The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt

I suggest you try this site.

https://turingmachinesimulator.com/

If you've problems with the syntax, I'm sure that there will be plenty of people
here happy to help. It doesn't require reading a lot of instructions.

That is 100% perfectly moot.
The following conclusively proves that I am correct.
I only need the God damned liars to quit their God damned lying.

The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.



Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


Subject: Re:_My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++
Followup: comp.theory
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 00:15 UTC
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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On 4/16/2022 7:05 PM, Ben wrote:
"B.H." <xlt.pjw@gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:21:53 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
"B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:31:21 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
"B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:

It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
H, the algorithm itself, report that?
By returning false. The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
defined as, very roughly

void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }

PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct even
though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).

Although I am not familiar with the idea of inputting functions to
functions in C, and have never seen "ptr" as the syntax for pointers
It's a typedef name. There was another post where I included the
definition, but since PO uses an integer, the type is not agreed upon.
Hence the "very roughly".
(I don't like pointers and haven't used them in a while, but usually I
used * in school), but you would appear to have said something
incorrect...it looks like P(P) would not halt because H, presumably a
direct simulator of P on P until P halts on its input, would never
halt, thus P would never return at all...it would never halt.
H is supposed to be a halt decider (if only for this one case) so it
must return. The one thing it can't do is act like a pure simulator.

PO does sometimes flip to claiming that the call to H in P won't return
(while saying that a top-level call will) but that's really just a case
of PO saying what's needed to get out of a bind. H must return the same
result, for the same arguments values, no matter where it is called from.
Ahh, the thrill of victory...it's like playing Pendulum Castle [1],
but easier, from Super Mario once again.
What victory?

The victory of accuracy.  I won, the concession is implicit; it's a
proof by inspection.  You might want to concede to avoid getting
pegged as "an Obama-oid."

I am very happy for you.  Do you now see why PO is wrong?


If I was wrong then the correct simulation of the 27 bytes of machine code at machine address [000009d6] by H would show some correct execution trace from machine address [000009d6] ending at machine address [000009f0].

_P()
[000009d6](01) 55         push ebp
[000009d7](02) 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000009d9](03) 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
[000009dc](01) 50         push eax         // push P
[000009dd](03) 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[000009e0](01) 51         push ecx         // push P
[000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826    // call H
[000009e6](03) 83c408     add esp,+08
[000009e9](02) 85c0       test eax,eax
[000009eb](02) 7402       jz 000009ef
[000009ed](02) ebfe       jmp 000009ed
[000009ef](01) 5d         pop ebp
[000009f0](01) c3         ret              // Final state
Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]

That everyone refuses this challenge proves that it is beyond their technical capacity or that they are liars.


Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


Subject: Re:_My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Richard
From: olcott
Newsgroups: comp.theory, comp.ai.philosophy, sci.logic, sci.math
Followup: comp.theory
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 00:41 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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On 4/16/2022 7:37 PM, Ben wrote:
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

On 4/15/2022 5:31 PM, Ben wrote:
"B.H." <xlt.pjw@gmail.com> writes:

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:

It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
H, the algorithm itself, report that?
By returning false.  The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
defined as, very roughly
    void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }
PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct even
though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).

The fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting is complete proof
that H(P,P)===false is correct by logical necessity.

Changing the words from those of the problem you have claimed to
addressing for 18 years suggests you are up to something.  Fortunately
you were clear a few years ago so we know what you are up to.



If I was wrong then the correct simulation of the 27 bytes of machine code at machine address [000009d6] by H would show some correct execution trace from machine address [000009d6] ending at machine address [000009f0].

_P()
[000009d6](01) 55         push ebp
[000009d7](02) 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[000009d9](03) 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
[000009dc](01) 50         push eax         // push P
[000009dd](03) 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[000009e0](01) 51         push ecx         // push P
[000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826    // call H
[000009e6](03) 83c408     add esp,+08
[000009e9](02) 85c0       test eax,eax
[000009eb](02) 7402       jz 000009ef
[000009ed](02) ebfe       jmp 000009ed
[000009ef](01) 5d         pop ebp
[000009f0](01) c3         ret              // Final state
Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]

That everyone refuses this challenge proves that it is beyond their technical capacity or that they are liars.


Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
  Genius hits a target no one else can see."
  Arthur Schopenhauer


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