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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

SubjectAuthor
* Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Chris Green
|`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
| |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
| | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
|+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|| +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
|| |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |  +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   |  +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
||   |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
||   |    |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |   | +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |   | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    ||| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||   +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Joerg Walther
||   |    |    |||   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |||     |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |||     |  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |||      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |||      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||      |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Theo
||   |    |    ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
||   |    |    |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   |||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   ||| `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   ||+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
||   |    |    |   | | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   | |  |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   | |  |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  |   `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
||   |    |    |   | |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |      `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |       `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | |        +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...mm0fmf
||   |    |    |   | |        |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   | |        | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |   |  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   | |        |    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |      `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |       `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |        |        `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |        |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | |        |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Kees Nuyt
||   |    |    |   | |        |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |        `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Andy Leighton
||   |    |    |   | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
||   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Jean-Pierre Kuypers
||   +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
|`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Theo
`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...mm0fmf

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Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<20231223124236.4f1a82563382df201778cdc3@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 12:42:36 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 12:42 UTC

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 12:10:27 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/12/2023 09:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 23:22:55 -0500
> > "56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net> wrote:
> >
> >> The crux of the proverbial biscuit lies with the
> >> practice of re-compiling apps/updates when you go
> >> to install them.
> >
> > I'll say it again - this does NOT happen.
>
> It sort of does with kernels ... AIUI the modules are linked at least.
> Though not necessarily compiled, as such.

Definitely not compiled - we build kernels at work with added
patches, compiling takes a surprisingly long time. Kernel modules are mostly
dynamically loaded and I'm pretty sure are not modified in any way during
installation.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<fVh*WlCyz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: 23 Dec 2023 16:33:05 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <fVh*WlCyz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 16:33 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> > It is not beyond the bounds of credibility for Microsoft to create an
> > API with exactly the same calls into it as in Windows, and call that
> > Microsoft X Windows or whatever, and *sell* that to run on
> > Linux. Programs would need relinking with that library in order to
> > create linux executables, but that wouldn't be a huge issue for most
> > vendors.
>
> It’d be a crazy thing to do. Huge amounts of effort to maintain
> compatibility, compared to the much easier strategy of just keeping the
> existing Windows codebase trundling along. Which is, demonstrably, what
> they’re actually doing.
>
> And for what? The end result would be a Windows API implementation on
> top of a kernel designed for a completely different application layer.

Microsoft did it the other way around for WSL 1: implement the Linux API on
top of Windows. It worked, but performance was bad because the Windows I/O
subsystems just aren't performant enough - doing compiles on top of the
Windows filesystem API was way slower that doing them on Linux on the same
hardware.

For WSL 2 they junked that approach and just ran a Linux VM in HyperV, with
some customisation for Windows-compatible graphics etc. This has much
better performance. They do the same for Android.

MS are going further in that direction: the primary Windows system is
actually another VM on top of HyperV, with secondary VMs for Linux, Android
and a secure enclave VM to hold keys, check code signing etc.

So it's up to them how much they want to use Windows, or whether to do the
heavy lifting on a different kernel on the same machine. They no longer
need to care: run Windows when it makes sense, run Linux when it makes
sense, whatever.

Theo

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: not...@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:48 UTC

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> It is not beyond the bounds of credibility for Microsoft to create an
> API with exactly the same calls into it as in Windows, and call that
> Microsoft X Windows or whatever, and *sell* that to run on Linux.
> Programs would need relinking with that library in order to create linux
> executables, but that wouldn't be a huge issue for most vendors.
>
> And if that relieves Microsoft of a layer of development they really
> don't want to do, and allows them to concentrate on what brings in the
> money, I don't see why they wouldn't.

Better yet, it's all been done for them already by volunteers and
released under LGPL so they could bundle it into their own
proprietary product. It's called Wine, and indeed it's what I used
to keep running some Windows software when I switched entirely
away from Windows. I didn't have to pay M$ a cent for it either
(which probably would be a problem for them, because people would
just copy the design of a M$-branded Linux+Wine package to make
free/fake alternatives).

> What would be the worst issue is hardware drivers which would inevitably
> have to change as I don't think a compatibility shim would really work.

There's NDISwrapper, which I've often been tempted to try but
always decided it was a better move to find alternative hardware
with working native Linux drivers.

> Full backwasswards compatibility for .exes is simply down to providing
> e.g. Virtualbox as standard equipped with whatever legacy version of
> windows people wanted. Until Intel chips become obsolete and the whole
> world goes ARM...

Then you could run individual x86 programs via QEMU, which can run a
program in emulation on ARM within the same operating environment as
native code. I don't see why that wouldn't work with Wine too.

Sure enough, someone's started that for M$ already too:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/pi-qemu-wine/

> The more interesting question is where industrial computing is going.
> Apple still hold sway in the graphics and sound processing areas, but
> when it comes to CAD CAM I don't think windows really has a rival.

Indeed CAD software is some that I've used Wine to run in Windows
since I switched. I had to pull some original libs from Windows in
so as to make 3D graphics work, but that wouldn't be an issue for
M$ themselves like it is for the Wine developers.

Occasionally you see commercial Windows CAD programs that are
actually _supported_ for running in Linux via Wine by the software
company. If that attitude were more universal, Linux might be much
stronger competition for M$ in the business sector.

> The real issue for me if I was in charge of Microsoft, after the failure
> to crack mobile phones or fondleslabs is 'where are we going? What do we
> have that is a unique selling point? And how do we leverage that into
> future sales?'

They seem to be preferencing "cloud" stuff that runs on Google's
OS, ahem, web browser, called Chrome. Very often on top of Android,
which is a Googlified version of Linux. So in a way they're already
doing what you propose, by sticking their new products together
with lots of Google-glue.

On the cloud, nobody can run old software in the first place.

> Basically if existing applications could be rapidly re-linked, or
> recompiled to run on 'Windows on Linux on Intel, with legacy Virtual
> box' or 'Windows on Linux, on ARM' I think the apps guys would be happy.
> The hardware guys would be happy too, as all of their kit would be
> obsolete,so they would just bring out Linux drivers for *new* kit.

Would they really? Tell the hardware guys quick then that it all
already exists (and has done for decades)!

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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From: 56g.1...@ztq4.net (56g.1183)
Organization: bluejay volume
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 00:42:44 -0500
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 by: 56g.1183 - Mon, 25 Dec 2023 05:42 UTC

On 12/23/23 4:07 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> "56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net> writes:
>> On 12/22/23 8:21 AM, Björn Lundin wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-22 05:49, 56g.1183 wrote:
>>>> There are rumors that Winders is headed in the same direction
>>>> because what-is has become just a total Gordian Knot and they can't
>>>> maintain it or predict interactions.
>>> Any links to confirm that ?
>>
>> Not as such ... I just "hear things", 'rumors', as said.
>> It'd be a big Top Secret at M$ regardless.
>>
>> However I think it's their ONLY sane path. Apple knew
>> this some time ago. M$ has been stubborn - but it's
>> still an increasing functional/security nightmare and
>> SOMETHING needs to be done.
>
> This idea is detached from reality. Microsoft are committed to backward
> compatibility with existing application software, and maintaining that
> in such a fundamental rewrite is not possible.
> https://www.hyrumslaw.com/ is relevant here.

Apple got away with it. 'Perfect' backward compatibility
would be very NICE, but the company went with the sane route
for damned good reasons.

> Apple have never had the same compatibility goals, and have regularly
> killed application software backward compatibility.

This CAN be ok ... IF you offer some kind of 'fix', a
re-compiler/port of sorts, to at least get the 'important'
software to keep working properly. The CORP should do its
best to get everyone over 'the hump' and can then cruise
on in serenity.

In any case, I just don't think M$ really has a realistic
CHOICE in the short/medium term. Winders is a TOTAL KLUDGE
at this point and there's NO closing all the security and
functional gaps.

Winders has constantly proven itself highly vulnerable to
a variety of attacks. Govt/health, even large corp interests,
have been seriously compromised. It's almost become "normal"
at this point - though it SHOULDN'T be. M$ keeps greasing
its politicians ... but I'm not sure how long that strategy
can continue to protect them as this crap escalates out
of control. The new, fucked, world situation is likely to
push all this over the edge as more State-funded players
get involved.

The US DOD for a long time required all its software to
be writ in ADA. I've fooled around with ADA, it's a
HORRIBLY anal-retentive language. Managed to get basic
list of lists thing to work, but it was NOT clear and easy.
No wonder the DOD budget was so extreme.

Maybe Modula-3 ? Strongly-typed, but not so hideously anal.
I've always liked Pascal (still write apps in it), but M2/3
is a bit more 'secure'. BTW, can't find ANY good modern
M2/3 compilers for Linux that can be installed and work
correctly. The Montreal compiler is best bet, but ...
well ... it shouldn't be so hard. M2/3 translators,
that convert everything to GCC, are NOT real. Gimme
'native' every time.

In any case, I'm gonna say Winders is DOOMED. It HAS to
change, or die. Nothing in computerdom is forever.

No More Winders ? Wouldn't hurt my feelings. It's
the Ford Pinto of operating systems. Popular, but
explodes at the slightest tap :-)

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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From: 56g.1...@ztq4.net (56g.1183)
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 by: 56g.1183 - Mon, 25 Dec 2023 06:04 UTC

On 12/23/23 7:25 AM, TimS wrote:
> On 23 Dec 2023 at 12:06:57 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The world is changing, and what looks to be relevant is that ARM based
>> hardware is where consumers are going. And you cant have legacy WINTEL
>> apps on that anyway.
>
> Sure you can - and do. SWMBO has an M1 Mini - which of course has an ARM CPU.
> All her old intel-based software runs with no issues. Of course that means not
> just having Rosetta, but also all the libs and frameworks have to be supplied
> in both intel and ARM binary formats. That means twice as much testing at the
> dev stage for new OS versions too. Which is why at some point a future OS
> version will only come with the ARM versions, and all your old apps will
> become history. The alternative would have been to keep frameworks/libs
> avialable in 32/64 bit versions, and in PowerPC/intel/ARM versions. So, 5 or 6
> versions of all libs and frameworks.
>
> Windows is going to face something similar too, if they really want to push
> moving to ARM.

ARM is very good. However x86 is very good as well, and
very common. I'd buy an x86 Pi as quickly as an ARM Pi.

IMHO, M$ will mostly stick with x86 for now, with ARM
as a side-project.

What M$ has to deal with is that, well, Winders Just Sucks
at this point. It's HORRIBLY vulnerable to everything from
the script-kiddies on up to State-sponsored super-hacks.
Millions, maybe billions, in damages each year. The CHIP
isn't the problem, it's Winders.

Time to legally NEGATE those "I Accept" legal protections
in Winders. Joe Average, indeed Corp Average, does NOT know
what it's agreeing to. Individuals/Corps/Govt deserve
umpteen BILLIONS in compensation for its CRAP system.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:02 UTC

On 2023-12-25, 56g.1183 <56g.1183@ztq4.net> wrote:

> Time to legally NEGATE those "I Accept" legal protections
> in Winders. Joe Average, indeed Corp Average, does NOT know
> what it's agreeing to. Individuals/Corps/Govt deserve
> umpteen BILLIONS in compensation for its CRAP system.

Years ago, just for the heck of it, I read one of those agreements
end to end. (I think it was for XP.) I found a clause that basically
said that M$ reserves the right to walk into your machine whenever
they feel like it, take a look around, and remove anything which,
in their sole estimation, you should not have. Sounds like a
back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:45 UTC

On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:02:07 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
> updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.

It was, now there's SAaS.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 11:21:16 +0000
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Tue, 26 Dec 2023 11:21 UTC

"56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net> writes:
> In any case, I just don't think M$ really has a realistic CHOICE in
> the short/medium term. Winders is a TOTAL KLUDGE at this point and
> there's NO closing all the security and functional gaps.
>
> Winders has constantly proven itself highly vulnerable to a variety of
> attacks. Govt/health, even large corp interests, have been seriously
> compromised. It's almost become "normal" at this point - though it
> SHOULDN'T be. M$ keeps greasing its politicians ... but I'm not sure
> how long that strategy can continue to protect them as this crap
> escalates out of control. The new, fucked, world situation is likely
> to push all this over the edge as more State-funded players get
> involved.

Linux and macOS also have a steady stream of vulnerabilities, so did the
other Unix platforms when they were still relevant. Your hypothetical
rewrite of Windows on a Unix kernel would not solve anyone’s security
issues, it would just introduce an extra layer of complexity for
vulnerabilities and other defects to nest in.

Widely-discussed estimates in 2019/2020 were that about 70% of
vulnerabilities were memory safety issues, so a more realistic option
for improving security is to rewrite key components into memory-safe
languages. I don’t know what Apple or Microsoft’s (OS-level) response to
this is but Linux is experimenting with support for Rust in the kernel,
which is pretty promising.

There’s a lot of other OS components than kernels, though, and a lot of
vulnerabilities in applications; so don’t expect that 70% figure to fall
rapidly even when the kernel situation does start to improve.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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 by: Joerg Walther - Tue, 26 Dec 2023 11:35 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

>> back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
>> updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.
>
> It was, now there's SAaS.

That and the fact that W12 or W13 will probably only run from/in the
cloud is what made me switch to Linux. Best decision in years
software-wise.

-jw-

--

And now for something completely different...

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:06 UTC

On 2023-12-25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:02:07 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
>> updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.
>
> It was, now there's SAaS.

Yup. See my .sig below.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 06:11 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:06:05 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-12-25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:02:07 GMT
> > Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
> >> updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.
> >
> > It was, now there's SAaS.
>
> Yup. See my .sig below.

Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...

a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
d) Distributed architectures can be very robust

.... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<umh0pt$3t095$5@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:11:56 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:11 UTC

On 27/12/2023 06:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:06:05 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-12-25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:02:07 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> back door to me - but then I've always maintained that automatic
>>>> updates are one of the biggest potential security holes.
>>>
>>> It was, now there's SAaS.
>>
>> Yup. See my .sig below.
>
> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>
> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>
> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
> VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
> will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.
>
aka a botnet

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: tim...@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: TimS - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:30 UTC

On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:

> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>
> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>
> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
> VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
> will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.

How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?

--
Tim

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 12:19 UTC

TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> writes:
> "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>>
>> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
>> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
>> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
>> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>>
>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them
>> together in VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your
>> downloaded application will in fact be a remotely administered
>> hypervisor.
>
> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone
> noticing?

Malware authors have been hiding their applications for years...

I don’t think there’d be much demand for compute running on randos’
computers from legitimate buyers though. Cloud works for people who
trust Amazon (et al) to provide a sufficient degree of resilience,
security etc for their use cases. You don’t get that from random
third-party computers.

No doubt there are use cases where the poor reliability of domestic
compute wouldn’t be an issue, and there are several interesting
responses to the obvious security issues (e.g. secure execution
environments, cryptographic trickery) but it could be a rather small
niche.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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 by: Andy Leighton - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 12:47 UTC

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:50:46 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 23:22:55 -0500
> "56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net> wrote:
>
>> The crux of the proverbial biscuit lies with the
>> practice of re-compiling apps/updates when you go
>> to install them.
>
> I'll say it again - this does NOT happen. You have thoroughly
> misunderstood the root cause of the problem, which is that there the
> available packages do not form a coherent set in most (all?) Linux distros.
> Instead it is easy to find yourself installing package A which depends on
> library L < 1.0 and package B which depends on library L > 2.0.

Also the above situation might or might not be an issue. I certainly
have had that work on my boxen at times. But it isn't very common, and
far less common that it was.

> This does not happen with FreeBSD packages because they are all
> built together as a consistent set. The downside of this approach is that
> the package build takes several days and so the rate of package updates is
> limited.

Although presumably you can get into the same situation with external /
third party / private packages. And with any good package management system
- I include dpkg (even though that is typically binary based) and portage
and FreeBSD's ports - not very common at all.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:22 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:11:56 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 27/12/2023 06:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:06:05 GMT

> > ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them
> > together in VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your
> > downloaded application will in fact be a remotely administered
> > hypervisor.
> >
> aka a botnet

Yes but hopefully one with rules that you choose to join rather than
one that just takes root in your systems.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:26 UTC

On 27 Dec 2023 11:30:52 GMT
TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

> On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
> >
> > a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
> > b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
> > c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
> > d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
> >
> > ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them
> > together in VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your
> > downloaded application will in fact be a remotely administered
> > hypervisor.
>
> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?

You install the cloud application suite, it consists of the
hypervisor which phones home, adds your resources to the pile and offers
you all the cloud applications you just signed up for.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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 by: Björn Lundin - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:55 UTC

On 2023-12-23 05:48, 56g.1183 wrote:
>
>   You're mostly correct here. The prob is that anytime you apt install
>   anything the source of the desired pgm is compiled on YOUR box.

As others have said - no it is not.
Your statement is just false.

--
/Björn

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:56:40 +0000
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 by: Pancho - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:56 UTC

On 27/12/2023 16:22, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:11:56 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 27/12/2023 06:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:06:05 GMT
>
>>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them
>>> together in VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your
>>> downloaded application will in fact be a remotely administered
>>> hypervisor.
>>>
>> aka a botnet
>
> Yes but hopefully one with rules that you choose to join rather than
> one that just takes root in your systems.
>

Like the SETI@home. I think they did it as a screen-saver?

In the past, some companies used staff's desktop PCs to run compute
intensive overnight batches. It is quite tricky to set up and manage.
I'd be surprised if it was economic for most companies, as opposed to
using Google, Amazon, or Microsoft cloud servers.

From an IT management viewpoint, it is easier to manage centralised
servers and smart terminals. I assumed that was the way things had gone
over the last decade? Cheap, low cost PCs, with serious computations
done on a server or the cloud..

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: bnl...@nowhere.com (Björn Lundin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:57:01 +0100
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 by: Björn Lundin - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:57 UTC

On 2023-12-23 05:22, 56g.1183 wrote:
> On 12/22/23 8:21 AM, Björn Lundin wrote:
>> On 2023-12-22 05:49, 56g.1183 wrote:
>>>
>>>    There are rumors that Winders is headed in the same direction
>>>    because what-is has become just a total Gordian Knot and they
>>>    can't maintain it or predict interactions.
>>
>> Any links to confirm that ?
>
>   Not as such ... I just "hear things", 'rumors', as said.
>   It'd be a big Top Secret at M$ regardless.

So, just rumors and on top of that your speculation?
I will not bet any money an that happening soon...

--
/Björn

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:45 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 12:47:32 +0000
Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:50:46 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> > This does not happen with FreeBSD packages because they are all
> > built together as a consistent set. The downside of this approach is
> > that the package build takes several days and so the rate of package
> > updates is limited.
>
> Although presumably you can get into the same situation with external /
> third party / private packages.

There are practically none of those - there are a few special
purpose repos and associated build farms but not very many. It's so much
easier to create ports and get them added to the ports tree than it is to
maintain a separate package set. Port maintenance is generally pretty light
work - and the package build and distribution comes for free from the
project infrastructure.

The downside is a long cycle time for package updates that gets
longer as more ports are added and shorter when more hardware is thrown at
the task.

There are people who build all their own packages in house (they
get much shorter cycle times by only building the ones they use and they
get to set the build optiopns), using the same system as the official
package builds - they tend not to install from the official repo and of
course they get consistent sets.

You can get in a mess but it takes a bit of determination.

> And with any good package management
> system - I include dpkg (even though that is typically binary based) and
> portage and FreeBSD's ports - not very common at all.

The trouble I've seen with .deb packages either Ubuntu or Debian
sourced is that most of the old versions are available and it is common to
add external repos so the set of packages available to apt is not a
consistent one especially if you insist on installing a particular version
for one or more packages and/or don't update them all every time.

With FreeBSD packages extra repos and pinned versions are rarities.
This tends to mean that if it's not already in the ports and producing a
package (some ports don't for licence reasons - some are broken) then you
are SOL unless you can create a port yourself (which varies from dead easy
to a nightmare requiring deep skills in several languages and an
understanding of the application code).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: tim...@streater.me.uk (TimS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: TimS - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:18 UTC

On 27 Dec 2023 at 16:26:44 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:

> You install the cloud application suite

No I don't. I've not completed iCloud setup on my iPhone or any of my Macs.
End of.

--
Tim

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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:31 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:56:40 +0000
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> wrote:

> From an IT management viewpoint, it is easier to manage centralised
> servers and smart terminals. I assumed that was the way things had gone
> over the last decade? Cheap, low cost PCs, with serious computations
> done on a server or the cloud..

Well sort of - except that even the cheap low cost PCs tend to have
quite a lot of CPU, RAM and disc and with all the real work happening in
the cloud it's idle and of course quite a lot get fancy big fast PCs which
get even less use because they're too far up the greasy pole to actually
work.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:33 UTC

On 27 Dec 2023 17:18:22 GMT
TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

> On 27 Dec 2023 at 16:26:44 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
> > You install the cloud application suite
>
> No I don't. I've not completed iCloud setup on my iPhone or any of my
> Macs. End of.

That's you and me safe then.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 18:13 UTC

On 2023-12-27, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

> On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>>
>> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
>> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
>> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
>> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>>
>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
>> VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
>> will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.
>
> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
for instance...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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