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computers / comp.sys.raspberry-pi / Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

SubjectAuthor
* Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Chris Green
|`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
| +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
| |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
| | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
|+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|| +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
|| |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
|| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |  +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   |  +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
||   |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
||   |    |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |   | +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |   | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    ||| `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||   +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Joerg Walther
||   |    |    |||   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |||     |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |||     |  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |||      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |||      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |||      |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |||      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |||      `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Theo
||   |    |    ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
||   |    |    |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...56g.1183
||   |    |    |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   ||+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   |||`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   ||| `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   ||+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   ||`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
||   |    |    |   | | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   | |  |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...moi
||   |    |    |   | |  |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |  |   `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Deloptes
||   |    |    |   | |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |      +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |      |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |      `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |       `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | |        +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...mm0fmf
||   |    |    |   | |        |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   | |        | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |  `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |   |`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   | `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |   |  `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Charlie Gibbs
||   |    |    |   | |        |    `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |     `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   | |        |      `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        |       `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Richard Kettlewell
||   |    |    |   | |        |        `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...TimS
||   |    |    |   | |        +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    |   | |        |+* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Pancho
||   |    |    |   | |        |+- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Kees Nuyt
||   |    |    |   | |        |`- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    |    |   | |        `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Andy Leighton
||   |    |    |   | `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    |   `* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...The Natural Philosopher
||   |    |    +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Ahem A Rivet's Shot
||   |    |    `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Björn Lundin
||   |    `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...druck
||   +* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Jean-Pierre Kuypers
||   +- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...David Taylor
||   `- Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Computer Nerd Kev
|`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...Theo
`* Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...mm0fmf

Pages:123456
Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<20231227190329.2326e2351ce65b97899cfd5e@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:03:29 +0000
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:03 UTC

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 18:13:08 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-12-27, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone
> > noticing?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal
> for instance...

Oh they can be much more open about it - after all they're not
rooting your machine, they're just using it to provide the service you've
payed for.

<IANAL - I've just heard too many of them scheme>

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<umhvaj$1gbm$5@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:52:51 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:52 UTC

On 27/12/2023 11:30, TimS wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>>
>> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
>> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
>> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
>> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>>
>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
>> VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
>> will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.
>
> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?
>
They probably already have

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:54:37 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 19:54 UTC

On 27/12/2023 16:26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2023 11:30:52 GMT
> TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>>>
>>> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
>>> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
>>> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
>>> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>>>
>>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them
>>> together in VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your
>>> downloaded application will in fact be a remotely administered
>>> hypervisor.
>>
>> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?
>
> You install the cloud application suite, it consists of the
> hypervisor which phones home, adds your resources to the pile and offers
> you all the cloud applications you just signed up for.
>
I actually was trying to watch free sport on my Linux PC and I noticed
that my OUTGOING data rate was maxed out...some kind of video proxying
going on via one assumes javascript

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: TimS - Wed, 27 Dec 2023 22:57 UTC

On 27 Dec 2023 at 18:13:08 GMT, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2023-12-27, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 27 Dec 2023 at 06:11:40 GMT, "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm - sooner or later they're going to realise that ...
>>>
>>> a) Data centres are expensive and unpopular
>>> b) Users have oodles of unused compute and store resources
>>> c) Many of them have high bandwidth internet connections
>>> d) Distributed architectures can be very robust
>>>
>>> ... and start parking VMs in customers computers and lacing them together in
>>> VPNs to provide the services they're selling. Your downloaded application
>>> will in fact be a remotely administered hypervisor.
>>
>> How do they propose to install that on my machine without anyone noticing?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

That's just God's punishment for running Windows.

--
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place." - Douglas Adams

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<KEWdnaXfMZtphxD4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 06:51:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
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From: 56g.1...@ztq4.net (56g.1183)
Organization: bluejay volume
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 01:51:32 -0500
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 by: 56g.1183 - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 06:51 UTC

On 12/26/23 6:21 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> "56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net> writes:
>> In any case, I just don't think M$ really has a realistic CHOICE in
>> the short/medium term. Winders is a TOTAL KLUDGE at this point and
>> there's NO closing all the security and functional gaps.
>>
>> Winders has constantly proven itself highly vulnerable to a variety of
>> attacks. Govt/health, even large corp interests, have been seriously
>> compromised. It's almost become "normal" at this point - though it
>> SHOULDN'T be. M$ keeps greasing its politicians ... but I'm not sure
>> how long that strategy can continue to protect them as this crap
>> escalates out of control. The new, fucked, world situation is likely
>> to push all this over the edge as more State-funded players get
>> involved.
>
> Linux and macOS also have a steady stream of vulnerabilities, so did the
> other Unix platforms when they were still relevant. Your hypothetical
> rewrite of Windows on a Unix kernel would not solve anyone’s security
> issues, it would just introduce an extra layer of complexity for
> vulnerabilities and other defects to nest in.

Linux/Unix are NOT "perfect". I don't think anything can be.

However, properly implemented, they can significantly REDUCE
the number and scope of problems. Winders just CAN'T. It's
a total disorganized incomprehensible cluster-fuck.

> Widely-discussed estimates in 2019/2020 were that about 70% of
> vulnerabilities were memory safety issues, so a more realistic option
> for improving security is to rewrite key components into memory-safe
> languages. I don’t know what Apple or Microsoft’s (OS-level) response to
> this is but Linux is experimenting with support for Rust in the kernel,
> which is pretty promising.

The infamous "buffer overflow" continues to be a major issue.
Winders is just FULL of bad code that allows overflows to do
their evil. And no, it won't/can't "just be fixed-up" because
nobody even knows how it all WORKS anymore. Kludges on top
of kludges on top of kludges going back into the 80s.

"Rust" is not a panacea. IMHO it's just another language
created "because we could". 'C' is still the gold standard.
I proto in a lot of languages, but the final product always
winds up being in 'C' or Pascal. If you're REALLY paranoid
then a native ADA compiler, even though it's a just HATEFUL
language to use (no wonder Defense projects go 10X over
budget and are 10X later than promised ......)

> There’s a lot of other OS components than kernels, though, and a lot of
> vulnerabilities in applications; so don’t expect that 70% figure to fall
> rapidly even when the kernel situation does start to improve.

Kernels DO need to be tighter. So far, Linus has been pretty
sharp this way - enough to put-off a lot of would-be "improvers"
who would crash lots of other stuff to make a few gee-whiz
things "easier".

But Linus isn't young anymore. What then ?

Unix/BSD are more conservative. This has plusses, and
minuses. ,

As is, never expect "perfection". Every system, no matter
how clever, will always have flaws - and the Evil People
will eventually FIND them. It's a running battle. However
solid underlying design will REDUCE the number of exploitable
flaws.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<umjkht$bqi3$1@dont-email.me>

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From: bnl...@nowhere.com (Björn Lundin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:01:17 +0100
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 by: Björn Lundin - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:01 UTC

On 2023-12-28 07:51, 56g.1183 wrote:
> If you're REALLY paranoid
>   then a native ADA compiler, even though it's a just HATEFUL
>   language to use (no wonder Defense projects go 10X over
>   budget and are 10X later than promised ......)
>

That is hardly because of the language.

NVIDIA decided to leave C/c++ behind and use Ada/Spark instead (where
Spark is a subset of Ada with proofs - that is mathematical proof that
the code meets some criteria as in no runtime errors (given the hardware
does not break)

<https://www.adacore.com/uploads/techPapers/222559-adacore-nvidia-case-study-v5.pdf>

Some nice quotes from the paper

"Evaluating return on Investment (ROI) based on their
results, the POC team concluded that the engineering
costs associated with SPARK ramp-up (training,
experimentation, discovery of new tools, etc.) were
offset by gains in application security and verification
efficiency and thus offered an attractive trade-off."

I think that is enough to counter your statement above.
Besides, the Ada mandate was removed in the late 1990ites.
The cost explosion you refer to is with c/c++. Not with Ada.

And this is a general feeling you get when using Ada/Spark

“It’s very nice to know that once you’re done writing
an app in SPARK—even without doing a lot of testing
or line-by-line review—things like memory errors,
off-by-one errors, type mismatches, overflows,
underflows and stuff like that simply aren’t there,” Xu
said. “It’s also very nice to see that when we list our
tables of common errors, like those in MITRE’s CWE
list, large swaths of them are just crossed out. They’re
not possible to make using this language.”

--
/Björn

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<umjmfv$c45l$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:34:22 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:34 UTC

On 28/12/2023 06:51, 56g.1183 wrote:
> Winders is just FULL of bad code that allows overflows to do
>   their evil. And no, it won't/can't "just be fixed-up" because
>   nobody even knows how it all WORKS anymore. Kludges on top
>   of kludges on top of kludges going back into the 80s.

Once upon a time in a far far off country....
....I was faced with replacing a rats nest of organically grown disco
lighting wiring in a biscuit tin and ageing control units with some
more up to date sequencers and audio responding drivers.

My boss was puzzled when I asked him for a hacksaw. 'What are you going
to do?' 'Saw off d all those cables and put them into a documented
junction box' 'Are you sure? ' 'Watch me'

And I did. Any wires that connected to no other wires at all, were
simply tagged 'N/C' and every group of wires that had some sort of ohmic
connection were afforded adjacent terminals in the junction box, and
finally had mains applied very carefully to see what lit up...inside of
4 hours I had a fully documented junction box to connect the new
lighting controllers to.

And then it was so easy to do that lasts part.

Winders is like that. They need to simply go around and *write down*
every single call into windows, what it is supposed to do AND what it
actually *does*, which is probably in itself a dirty man year of work
for an intern, and then hand that specification over to a team of
developers to recreate the API. Which could then be ported to any damned
OS they chose, and by virtue of having been re written with modern tools
would run like greased weasel shit and could be ported to linux with
minimal effort.

IF Windows wants to stay in the commercial desktop arena.
In terms of computing for the numpties, Apple is the ultimate dumbed
down consumer product, and they cant compete. Android and chrome also
for smartphones and cheap laptops for school.
Microsoft has no niche market anymore. It is trying to recreate itself
as a cloud service, but I think that is a triumph of marketing over
engineering. Its totrally loost out in the server market, and the
industrial computer...today i'd use a Pi running linux rather than a PC
running DOS to control some industrial process ... All it has left is
gamers, and high power commercial and industrial *desktops* .

Many of the gamers are going STEAM and Linux as well...

....and technically, Linux is a better platform for mission critical
computing *if only the power apps ran on it*...

Honestly, I am not sure what I would do if I was tech director at
Microsoft, tasked with moving the company forward. Leave probably.

Or set up a skunk works of 20 guys and say 'document windows, and
rewrite it to run on linux, so that any .exe will run on it at full
native speeds as well as any linux program using (say) gnome graphics
api instead of Windows'...

And go flat out to target high end workstations and really secure
commercial applications like banking and finance.

And simply dump the numpties...

IBM reinvented itself as a software and services house when the
integrated circuit meant any damned fool could build a mainframe or
minicomputer.

IBMs mainframes today are PCS or blades running Linux... but they can
still run RPG, and COBOL. And all those legacy apps.

I think Microsoft needs to do similar.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<umjoee$ccuo$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:07:41 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:07 UTC

On 28/12/2023 11:01, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-12-28 07:51, 56g.1183 wrote:
>>    If you're REALLY paranoid
>>    then a native ADA compiler, even though it's a just HATEFUL
>>    language to use (no wonder Defense projects go 10X over
>>    budget and are 10X later than promised ......)
>>
>
> That is hardly because of the language.
>
> NVIDIA decided to leave C/c++ behind and use Ada/Spark instead (where
> Spark is a subset of Ada with proofs - that is mathematical proof that
> the code meets some criteria as in no runtime errors (given the hardware
> does not break)
>
> <https://www.adacore.com/uploads/techPapers/222559-adacore-nvidia-case-study-v5.pdf>
>
> Some nice quotes from the paper
>
> "Evaluating return on Investment (ROI) based on their
> results, the POC team concluded that the engineering
> costs associated with SPARK ramp-up (training,
> experimentation, discovery of new tools, etc.) were
> offset by gains in application security and verification
> efficiency and thus offered an attractive trade-off."
>
>
> I think that is enough to counter your statement above.
> Besides, the Ada mandate was removed in the late 1990ites.
> The cost explosion you refer to is with c/c++. Not with Ada.
>
>
>
> And this is a general feeling you get when using Ada/Spark
>
> “It’s very nice to know that once you’re done writing
> an app in SPARK—even without doing a lot of testing
> or line-by-line review—things like memory errors,
> off-by-one errors, type mismatches, overflows,
> underflows and stuff like that simply aren’t there,” Xu
> said. “It’s also very nice to see that when we list our
> tables of common errors, like those in MITRE’s CWE
> list, large swaths of them are just crossed out. They’re
> not possible to make using this language.”
>
>
Yes, but in fact a whole swathe of NEW errors become possible, instead :-)

I certainly think C++ is an abortion that should never have been
written, (and javaScript).

C is what it is. Fast way to write portable assembler code and as such
deserves its cachets. And sufficiently powerful to write whole
applications in, not just operating systems.

I am very dubious about languages that claim to solve coding problems. I
think its always possible to write code that will fool any computer into
doing the wrong thing at *some* level, and since software today seems to
be a 'million monkeys randomly typing' ...I am sure they will find ways
to fuck anything up.

In my apprenticeship as an electronic engineer, I could not believe how
thick the design and development techs actually were, The *system* was
what produced the product quality- random monkeys would 'design' the
circuits, and if they didn't meet the spec, the 'engineers' got it
thrown back and would tinker along until it either worked or the project
ran out of government funding (military electronics).

The problem with Microsoft, is that there is no incentive to meet a
functional spec. Or be tested and upgraded and have bugs fixed. All it
has to do is *sell*.

Compared with - say - the avionics industry there is zero quality
control, in the ISO 9000 meaning of the word.

Even if they pay lip service to it.

Now what that means is that Microsoft is only really suitable for a
consumer market.

However I digress. In that my thesis is that its not so much the
language that you use, as the testing and quality control and feedback
into the design revisions that you implement, that in the end gets the
bugs down and the quality up, and that is something the Linux community
is pretty *good* at. Although it has no formal quality control, more a
culture of 'if its *demonstrably* broken, fix it, as a matter of pride
and principle'.

If you look at - say aircraft - as the pinnacle of quality control, with
every single incident subject to a 'what conditions, what pilots, what
training, what maintenance (or lack of them) what design flaw,
ultimately contributed to this situation' then you can see how the
ultimate goal - that this situation never happen again. Ever.

They know there is no 'perfect' but by hammering away at the
demonstrably *imperfect - be it design, implementation, operational
procedures, maintenance, pilot training, air traffic training, aircraft
performance and safety just keep getting better.

I see this as a dichotomy between 'we will sell lots of kit, because its
bloody well designed' or 'we will sell lots of kit, because we will rush
it to market, and spend all the money on chrome and tailfins, and other
marketing, and the numpties will just buy it, because they are numpties'.

It's perfectly *possible* to write bug free programs in C. As the help I
got here with my daemons memory leak demonstrated. Provided you test
the code and analyse the problems that result.

Writing in some 'foolproof' language is no substitute for a proper
testing and modification feedback loop to consistently test and improve
the product, and the danger is that people will think that it is.

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<kv5724FqhkjU1@mid.individual.net>

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: TimS - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:12 UTC

On 28 Dec 2023 at 11:34:22 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> IBM reinvented itself as a software and services house when the
> integrated circuit meant any damned fool could build a mainframe or
> minicomputer.
>
> IBMs mainframes today are PCS or blades running Linux... but they can
> still run RPG, and COBOL. And all those legacy apps.
>
> I think Microsoft needs to do similar.

But they had that with Windows NT; perhaps they still have. Written by Dave
Cutler of VAX/VMS fame, IIRC. But then they had to cripple it with the drive
letter shit and a file system that doesn't allow an open file to be moved or
deleted. So even if they gave it Linux underpinnings, the user experience
would still be dreadful. After all, it's their mindset. Look at the ribbon in
Office apps, whose contents simply vanish if you make a window narrower. And
you do have to make a window narrower if, like most actual users, you only
have one screen.

--
Tim

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:24 UTC

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:34:22 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Winders is like that. They need to simply go around and *write down*
> every single call into windows, what it is supposed to do AND what it
> actually *does*, which is probably in itself a dirty man year of work
> for an intern, and then hand that specification over to a team of
> developers to recreate the API.

In order to do that it would have to stand still for a year, I
suspect that's not a possibility. AIUI the API changes to support
application development. The organisational challenges would be minimising
the API freeze period and a smooth cut over.

> IF Windows wants to stay in the commercial desktop arena.
> In terms of computing for the numpties, Apple is the ultimate dumbed
> down consumer product, and they cant compete.

Yet Apple is also the choice of many software developers when
corporate compliance/commercial compatibility is on the requirements list.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Pancho - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:55 UTC

On 28/12/2023 11:01, Björn Lundin wrote:
> On 2023-12-28 07:51, 56g.1183 wrote:
>>    If you're REALLY paranoid
>>    then a native ADA compiler, even though it's a just HATEFUL
>>    language to use (no wonder Defense projects go 10X over
>>    budget and are 10X later than promised ......)
>>
>
> That is hardly because of the language.
>
> NVIDIA decided to leave C/c++ behind and use Ada/Spark instead (where
> Spark is a subset of Ada with proofs - that is mathematical proof that
> the code meets some criteria as in no runtime errors (given the hardware
> does not break)
>

I've heard the idea of mathematical proofs of program correctness
throughout my career, and never had any idea what it meant. I understand
where it can't be done, like the halting problem, Godel etc, but not how
it could be done.

I can write both programs and mathematical proofs. I don't know how to
do either without flaws/bugs. Often I don't really understand the
difference between a program and constructive mathematical proof. At the
end of the day, it always seemed to me that once you got to a level of
complexity, you couldn't really prove anything, couldn't be sure. All
you could do is follow good practice, to minimise potential problems,
and test, test and test again.

Automating programming, delegating complexity to the programming tools,
memory management etc, always seemed to me the best way to avoid errors.
Maybe also isolating complexity in standard components, standard
patterns. Why people still use C is a mystery to me.

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
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Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Pancho - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 13:41 UTC

On 28/12/2023 12:12, TimS wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2023 at 11:34:22 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> IBM reinvented itself as a software and services house when the
>> integrated circuit meant any damned fool could build a mainframe or
>> minicomputer.
>>
>> IBMs mainframes today are PCS or blades running Linux... but they can
>> still run RPG, and COBOL. And all those legacy apps.
>>
>> I think Microsoft needs to do similar.
>
> But they had that with Windows NT; perhaps they still have. Written by Dave
> Cutler of VAX/VMS fame, IIRC. But then they had to cripple it with the drive
> letter shit and a file system that doesn't allow an open file to be moved or
> deleted.

Those seem to be characteristics of the file system. I think the main
crippling was done in NT 4.0 when they moved third party graphics
drivers into the Kernel layer (whatever that protected level is called
in Windows NT).

Although looking at support issues for the Arm Mali 610 on Linux, there
is talk about userland (userspace?) hacks, which suggests the debate
about where graphics drivers should live exists in Linux too.

> So even if they gave it Linux underpinnings, the user experience
> would still be dreadful. After all, it's their mindset. Look at the ribbon in
> Office apps, whose contents simply vanish if you make a window narrower. And
> you do have to make a window narrower if, like most actual users, you only
> have one screen.
>

I thought Windows NT was pretty good. You seem to be picking on GUI
ergonomics as if that is a measure of OS quality. The noticeable
difference between Windows NT and Linux for me was always driver
support, in particular GPU drivers.

FWIW, Gnome Desktop + Pi OS on the rPi5 feels pretty solid, reminiscent
of Windows quality.

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:27 UTC

On 28/12/2023 12:12, TimS wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2023 at 11:34:22 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> IBM reinvented itself as a software and services house when the
>> integrated circuit meant any damned fool could build a mainframe or
>> minicomputer.
>>
>> IBMs mainframes today are PCS or blades running Linux... but they can
>> still run RPG, and COBOL. And all those legacy apps.
>>
>> I think Microsoft needs to do similar.
>
> But they had that with Windows NT; perhaps they still have. Written by Dave
> Cutler of VAX/VMS fame, IIRC. But then they had to cripple it with the drive
> letter shit and a file system that doesn't allow an open file to be moved or
> deleted. So even if they gave it Linux underpinnings, the user experience
> would still be dreadful. After all, it's their mindset. Look at the ribbon in
> Office apps, whose contents simply vanish if you make a window narrower. And
> you do have to make a window narrower if, like most actual users, you only
> have one screen.
>
>
>

I think you are concatenating three aspects of windows: The user
interface of what Linux would call the 'window manager', the suite of
admin programs it comes with, and the ability to provide a program
launcher for .EXE style code.

Whether you call the file system '/' or 'C:\' is really not an issue.
You can map any amount of compatibility drive letters to Linux
directories and volumes via a simple piece of shim code.

In my Windows VM. /home/me is mapped to a drive letter that windows
programs understand. It works perfectly

I am not sure that anyone would bother to recreate the windows UI
exactly, since it is as you say, utter shit, and if all you want is a
similar look and feel, then Mint MATE already has it, complete with
control panels and file finders and a lot more.

I think, and this is a personal perspective you are free to disagree
with, (and RK certainly does) that Microsoft's USP (unique selling
point) always was that they provided a consistent API for manufacturers
of third party code, not that Microsoft's code like Word/Excel/Internet
Explode. control panel, registry and so on, or the way its window
manager worked, was somehow superior.

And so, from a commercial perspective, that is what they want to
continue with. And one of the possible ways to do that, its to write a
pretty big shim that can take a .exe and make it work inside a linux
window manager. On top of a modified linux operating system. (so that
calls to e.g. D:\My Bollox maps to /home/My Bollox and so on)
If they then want to write a shit window manager themselves that has a
unique MS look and feel they can also do that, but that is a separate
issue. As is the provision of all the admin code that provides a pretty
gui interface to set up and configuration.

Again from my perspective, Linux Mint MATE can be tarted up to look and
feel massively similar to the last Windows I used - XP - (it does
everything that XP does, better)

And unless you are deep in the hoopla of microsoft specific features of
Word or Excel, then Libre Office and Firefox and Thunderbird are
perfectly acceptable alternatives to the standard MS offerings

There is no reason not to duplicate the sheer turdity of The Registry,
with a text file, and some API tools to access it. If your third party
programs need it. Or the quirks of windows file sharing via a SAMBA shim.

The real question is whether or not that sort of thinking is happening
in Microsoft at all. For far too long the assumption that 'if it's
Microsoft (or INTEL), it will dominate the market ' has held sway and
that arrogance has stopped any real innovation.
Personally I think they have to change, or they will go the way of e.g.
CP/M.

YMMV

--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:29:44 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:29 UTC

On 28/12/2023 12:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:34:22 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Winders is like that. They need to simply go around and *write down*
>> every single call into windows, what it is supposed to do AND what it
>> actually *does*, which is probably in itself a dirty man year of work
>> for an intern, and then hand that specification over to a team of
>> developers to recreate the API.
>
> In order to do that it would have to stand still for a year, I
> suspect that's not a possibility. AIUI the API changes to support
> application development. The organisational challenges would be minimising
> the API freeze period and a smooth cut over.
>
>> IF Windows wants to stay in the commercial desktop arena.
>> In terms of computing for the numpties, Apple is the ultimate dumbed
>> down consumer product, and they cant compete.
>
> Yet Apple is also the choice of many software developers when
> corporate compliance/commercial compatibility is on the requirements list.
>

Yes, because its a reasonable supported system, not because it has a
great look and feel.

Remember that what an app developer wants is a stable supported program
launcher ONLY.

But your point is good. Microsoft even faces competition in its core market

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:38 UTC

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:29:44 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/12/2023 12:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 11:34:22 +0000
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> >> IF Windows wants to stay in the commercial desktop arena.
> >> In terms of computing for the numpties, Apple is the ultimate dumbed
> >> down consumer product, and they cant compete.
> >
> > Yet Apple is also the choice of many software developers when
> > corporate compliance/commercial compatibility is on the requirements
> > list.
> >
>
> Yes, because its a reasonable supported system, not because it has a
> great look and feel.

Yep doing both was a clever move on Apple's part. Admittedly it did
take them a while to get round to putting a solid base under their pretty
face but when they did they did it properly, unlike some.

> Remember that what an app developer wants is a stable supported program
> launcher ONLY.

Yep I know why I like them, but I still like a unix workstation
better.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

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From: findlayb...@blueyonder.co.uk (moi)
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 by: moi - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:13 UTC

On 28/12/2023 12:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Writing in some 'foolproof' language  is no substitute for a proper
> testing and modification feedback loop to consistently test and improve
> the product, and the danger is that people will think that it is.

Absolutely no Ada programmer imagines for a nanosecond that it is
"foolproof", or any kind of panacea.
It is, however, a superb tool for writing reliable software,
as is attested by a great deal of practical experience.

BTW, my KDF9 emulator, *available for the RPi*, is written in Ada 2012.
See <http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/>.

--
Bill F.

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:57:54 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:57 UTC

On 28/12/2023 16:13, moi wrote:
> On 28/12/2023 12:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Writing in some 'foolproof' language  is no substitute for a proper
>> testing and modification feedback loop to consistently test and
>> improve the product, and the danger is that people will think that it is.
>
> Absolutely no Ada programmer imagines for a nanosecond that it is
> "foolproof", or any kind of panacea.
> It is, however, a superb tool for writing reliable software,
> as is attested by a great deal of practical experience.
>
Or is it that the people who uses it also care deeply about reliable
software, and have quality control systems in place and actually test
their software?

> BTW, my KDF9 emulator, *available for the RPi*, is written in Ada 2012.
> See <http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/>.
>

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

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From: cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 19:12 UTC

On 2023-12-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The problem with Microsoft, is that there is no incentive to meet
> a functional spec. Or be tested and upgraded and have bugs fixed.
> All it has to do is *sell*.

Hear, hear.

> Compared with - say - the avionics industry there is zero quality
> control, in the ISO 9000 meaning of the word.

Quality is irrelevant. Sales is everything.

> Even if they pay lip service to it.

That's called marketing, innit?

> Now what that means is that Microsoft is only really suitable for a
> consumer market.

That's like that fellow who was asked why he robs banks.
His answer: "That's where the money is."

> However I digress. In that my thesis is that its not so much the
> language that you use, as the testing and quality control and feedback
> into the design revisions that you implement, that in the end gets the
> bugs down and the quality up, and that is something the Linux community
> is pretty *good* at. Although it has no formal quality control, more a
> culture of 'if its *demonstrably* broken, fix it, as a matter of pride
> and principle'.

Microsoft has no pride or principles. Only money.

> If you look at - say aircraft - as the pinnacle of quality control, with
> every single incident subject to a 'what conditions, what pilots, what
> training, what maintenance (or lack of them) what design flaw,
> ultimately contributed to this situation' then you can see how the
> ultimate goal - that this situation never happen again. Ever.
>
> They know there is no 'perfect' but by hammering away at the
> demonstrably *imperfect - be it design, implementation, operational
> procedures, maintenance, pilot training, air traffic training,
> aircraft performance and safety just keep getting better.

Plus changes are made to make things safer, and as such are relatively
infrequent and thoroughly thought out. They're not made just to keep up
with the latest fad.

> I see this as a dichotomy between 'we will sell lots of kit, because its
> bloody well designed' or 'we will sell lots of kit, because we will rush
> it to market, and spend all the money on chrome and tailfins, and other
> marketing, and the numpties will just buy it, because they are numpties'.

M$ vict^H^H^H^Husers must shoulder a lot of the blame. They're the ones
who react to chrome and tailfins the way Homer Simpson reacts to donuts.

> It's perfectly *possible* to write bug free programs in C. As the help I
> got here with my daemons memory leak demonstrated. Provided you test
> the code and analyse the problems that result.
>
> Writing in some 'foolproof' language is no substitute for a proper
> testing and modification feedback loop to consistently test and improve
> the product, and the danger is that people will think that it is.

Someone once pointed out that it's possible to write FORTRAN in any
language.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

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From: chr...@mshome.net (Chris Elvidge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 20:29:09 +0000
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 by: Chris Elvidge - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 20:29 UTC

On 28/12/2023 13:41, Pancho wrote:
> On 28/12/2023 12:12, TimS wrote:
>> On 28 Dec 2023 at 11:34:22 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> IBM reinvented itself as a software and services house when the
>>> integrated circuit meant any damned fool could build a mainframe or
>>> minicomputer.
>>>
>>> IBMs mainframes today are PCS or blades running Linux... but they can
>>> still run RPG, and COBOL. And all those legacy apps.
>>>
>>> I think Microsoft needs to do similar.
>>
>> But they had that with Windows NT; perhaps they still have. Written by
>> Dave
>> Cutler of VAX/VMS fame, IIRC. But then they had to cripple it with the
>> drive
>> letter shit and a file system that doesn't allow an open file to be
>> moved or
>> deleted.
>
> Those seem to be characteristics of the file system. I think the main
> crippling was done in NT 4.0 when they moved third party graphics
> drivers into the Kernel layer (whatever that protected level is called
> in Windows NT).
>
> Although looking at support issues for the Arm Mali 610 on Linux, there
> is talk about userland (userspace?) hacks, which suggests the debate
> about where graphics drivers should live exists in Linux too.
>
>> So even if they gave it Linux underpinnings, the user experience
>> would still be dreadful. After all, it's their mindset. Look at the
>> ribbon in
>> Office apps, whose contents simply vanish if you make a window
>> narrower. And
>> you do have to make a window narrower if, like most actual users, you
>> only
>> have one screen.
>>
>
> I thought Windows NT was pretty good. You seem to be picking on GUI
> ergonomics as if that is a measure of OS quality. The noticeable
> difference between Windows NT and Linux for me was always driver
> support, in particular GPU drivers.
>
> FWIW, Gnome Desktop + Pi OS on the rPi5 feels pretty solid, reminiscent
> of Windows quality.

"Windows" and "quality" in the same sentence?

--
Chris Elvidge, England
NEXT TIME IT COULD BE ME ON THE SCAFFOLDING

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 by: moi - Thu, 28 Dec 2023 23:31 UTC

On 28/12/2023 16:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/12/2023 16:13, moi wrote:
>> On 28/12/2023 12:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Writing in some 'foolproof' language  is no substitute for a proper
>>> testing and modification feedback loop to consistently test and
>>> improve the product, and the danger is that people will think that it
>>> is.
>>
>> Absolutely no Ada programmer imagines for a nanosecond that it is
>> "foolproof", or any kind of panacea.
>> It is, however, a superb tool for writing reliable software,
>> as is attested by a great deal of practical experience.
>>
> Or is it that the people who uses it also care deeply about reliable
> software, and have quality control systems in place and actually test
> their software?

It is, of course, both.

--
Bill F.

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 by: Charlie Gibbs - Fri, 29 Dec 2023 01:00 UTC

On 2023-12-28, Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> wrote:

> On 28/12/2023 13:41, Pancho wrote:
>
>> FWIW, Gnome Desktop + Pi OS on the rPi5 feels pretty solid, reminiscent
>> of Windows quality.
>
> "Windows" and "quality" in the same sentence?

Sure, like "People's Democratic Republic".

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | The Internet is like a big city:
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | it has plenty of bright lights and
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | excitement, but also dark alleys
/ \ if you read it the right way. | down which the unwary get mugged.

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 by: Richard Kettlewell - Fri, 29 Dec 2023 15:42 UTC

Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> writes:
> Automating programming, delegating complexity to the programming
> tools, memory management etc, always seemed to me the best way to
> avoid errors. Maybe also isolating complexity in standard components,
> standard patterns. Why people still use C is a mystery to me.

Multiple reasons:
- practical difficulty of migrating a large codebase to a new language
- commercial difficulty of migrating to a new language
- resistance to change
- ignorance of C’s deficiencies

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

<ummu1a$t8p2$1@dont-email.me>

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From: delop...@gmail.com (Deloptes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 18:01:30 +0100
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 by: Deloptes - Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:01 UTC

Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> writes:
>> Automating programming, delegating complexity to the programming
>> tools, memory management etc, always seemed to me the best way to
>> avoid errors. Maybe also isolating complexity in standard components,
>> standard patterns. Why people still use C is a mystery to me.
>
> Multiple reasons:
> - practical difficulty of migrating a large codebase to a new language
> - commercial difficulty of migrating to a new language
> - resistance to change
> - ignorance of C’s deficiencies

Some people like Linus Torvalds do not like object oriented programming. I
am pretty sure he will never change his mind on that. On top of this there
is historically a theoretical divide between functional and object oriented
approach. Especially for hardware the functional approach seems to be
rectified, however for GUI stuff etc. - it is masohistic thing (IMO).

Regarding "C’s deficiencies" I do not agree. It is rather the lack of
programmers experience and complexity of the code that leads to such
deficiencies.

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: tnp...@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:15:33 +0000
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 by: The Natural Philosop - Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:15 UTC

On 29/12/2023 17:01, Deloptes wrote:
> Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>
>> Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> writes:
>>> Automating programming, delegating complexity to the programming
>>> tools, memory management etc, always seemed to me the best way to
>>> avoid errors. Maybe also isolating complexity in standard components,
>>> standard patterns. Why people still use C is a mystery to me.
>>
>> Multiple reasons:
>> - practical difficulty of migrating a large codebase to a new language
>> - commercial difficulty of migrating to a new language
>> - resistance to change
>> - ignorance of C’s deficiencies
>
> Some people like Linus Torvalds do not like object oriented programming. I
> am pretty sure he will never change his mind on that. On top of this there
> is historically a theoretical divide between functional and object oriented
> approach. Especially for hardware the functional approach seems to be
> rectified, however for GUI stuff etc. - it is masohistic thing (IMO).
>
The point is that it is perfectly possible to use the lexical
constraints of C to write 'object oriented' code.

But it isn't forced on you as it somewhat is in C++.

> Regarding "C’s deficiencies" I do not agree. It is rather the lack of
> programmers experience and complexity of the code that leads to such
> deficiencies.

To people like me who migrated from assembler to C, it was heaven. All
of the power of assembler but with a neat logical way to express the
more usual constructs. And local variables on the stack! Wow! clever
stuff. Obviously you had to worry about not overwriting the stack return
addresses though.

We didn't expect to have our bottoms wiped for us by the language. We
were just happy to be able to write code 5 times as fast (the writing,
not the code) as assembler.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...

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From: findlayb...@blueyonder.co.uk (moi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.raspberry-pi
Subject: Re: Arrggh! beware the upgrade...
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 by: moi - Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:34 UTC

On 29/12/2023 17:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> To people like me who migrated from assembler to C, it was heaven. All
> of the power of assembler but with a neat logical way to express the
> more usual constructs. And local variables on the stack! Wow! clever
> stuff. Obviously you had to worry about not overwriting the stack return
> addresses though.
>
> We didn't expect to have our bottoms wiped for us by the language.

Gosh, how macho! I bet you are really butch.

--
Bill F.

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