Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
advocacy. Cannot remember the others.

Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
OS sure was an embarrasment.

John <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.

Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"

I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
Raging Debate 30 years ago.

These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
(just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
"lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
ago).

It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> OS sure was an embarrasment.

Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.

But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.

Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.

I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
his new home & office layout, etc.

> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>
> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> Raging Debate 30 years ago.

Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> ago).
>
> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄

Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:

"... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."

<https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>

> > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > OS sure was an embarrasment.
>
> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.

LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.

> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.

Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...

-hh

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>
> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>
> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> ago).
>
> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > OS sure was an embarrasment.
> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>
> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>
> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.

Windows 2000 was an incredible step forward. I was rock stable from day 1. OS X not so much. Both have evolved into stable and useful ecosystems. The big difference today is hardware. Windows hardware has taken the cheap laptop route, Apple has taken the quality road for the most part. The extreme emphasis on thin and light hurt (aka the Butterfly keyboard and disappearing ports.) That has changed, and I now own by first MacBook.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> > John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
> his new home & office layout, etc.
> > Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> > has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >
> > I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> > here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> > Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> > same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> > (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> > "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> > ago).
> >
> > It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> > men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>
> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>
> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> > > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > > OS sure was an embarrasment.
> >
> > Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> > Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> > vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> > Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>
>
> -hh

Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too. Why is that so remarkable?

Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created problems..

Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports, fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in my Universe.

On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
>> his new home & office layout, etc.
>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>
>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
>>> ago).
>>>
>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>>
>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>
>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>
>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>>
>>
>> -hh
>
> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too. Why is that so remarkable?
>
> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created problems.
>
> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports, fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in my Universe.
>

I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> >>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> >>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> >>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> >>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> >>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> >>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> >>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> >>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> >> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
> >> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
> >> his new home & office layout, etc.
> >>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> >>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >>>
> >>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> >>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> >>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> >> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
> >> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> >>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> >>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> >>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> >>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> >>> ago).
> >>>
> >>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> >>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> >> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
> >> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> >> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
> >>
> >> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> >>
> >> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> >>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> >>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> >>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> >>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> >>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
> >>>
> >>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> >>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> >> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
> >> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> >>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> >>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> >>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> >> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> >> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> >> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
> >>
> >>
> >> -hh
> >
> > Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too. Why is that so remarkable?
> >
> > Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created problems.
> >
> > Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports, fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in my Universe.
> >
> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.

I did not say you had denied, you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy. You have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism.. Please cite a instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> > John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
> his new home & office layout, etc.
> > Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> > has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >
> > I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> > here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> > Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> > same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> > (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> > "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> > ago).
> >
> > It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> > men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>
> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>
> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> > > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > > OS sure was an embarrasment.
> >
> > Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> > Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> > vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> > Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>
>
> -hh

Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of, terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.

But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep up with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that. My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.

And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.

Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30 years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away. I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes the Apple M series.

Happy Veteran's Day Hugh

On 2021-11-10 8:16 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
>>>> Campbell wrote:
>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed
>>>>>> to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any
>>>>>> effective advocacy was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta
>>>>>> who went by the name Macman as I recall. Unfortunately he
>>>>>> passed a few years ago at the young age of 55. There was a
>>>>>> guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed
>>>>>> also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still
>>>>>> around - not doing any real advocacy. Cannot remember the
>>>>>> others.
>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
>>>> earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they were doing
>>>> okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new home & office
>>>> layout, etc.
>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
>>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
>>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs vs
>>>>> Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
>>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android.
>>>>> With the same arguments being made. Android is "open" and
>>>>> represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and
>>>>> iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings" who want to make a
>>>>> "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years ago).
>>>>>
>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows
>>>>> is for "real men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies".
>>>>> 🙄
>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
>>>> laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
>>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a nice
>>>> bump in October sales:
>>>>
>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>
>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>>>
>>>>
Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first
>>>>>> Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how
>>>>>> far Mac has come since my first experiences with it at work
>>>>>> in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1,
>>>>> Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total
>>>>> POS.
>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
>>>> everything from that era as being primitive by our current
>>>> level of expectations.
>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
>>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs
>>>>> ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world
>>>>> has moved on.
>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
>>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing
>>>> of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get a new
>>>> desktop seen...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>
>>> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible speed, a
>>> good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought one. In fact,
>>> I bought it about a week after it was announced. I walked into
>>> the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week wait. While I was talking to
>>> the sales person I saw a customer receive a new MacBook. I walked
>>> out with one too. Why is that so remarkable?
>>>
>>> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with
>>> taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple site
>>> is showing no availability at the local store and Dec 3-10 for
>>> delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one delighted with
>>> Apple's solution to their self-created problems.
>>>
>>> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes boneheaded
>>> mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports, fragile cables,
>>> etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in my Universe.
>>>
>> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.
>
> I did not say you had denied,

That is precisely what you just said, Idiot.

"all denied"

> you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy. You
> have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism. Please cite a
> instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.

No, Idiot.

It's your claim that I've denied that Apple has made mistakes.

YOU give an example of this.

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 11:49:55 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> > > John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > > > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > > > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > > > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > > > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > > > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > > > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > > > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> > I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
> > last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
> > his new home & office layout, etc.
> > > Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> > > has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> > >
> > > I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> > > here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> > > Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> > Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
> > from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> > > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> > > same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> > > (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> > > "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> > > ago).
> > >
> > > It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> > > men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> > Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
> > where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> > apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
> >
> > "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> >
> > <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> > > > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > > > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > > > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > > > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > > > OS sure was an embarrasment.
> > >
> > > Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> > > Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> > LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
> > that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> > > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> > > vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> > > Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> >
> > Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> > his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> > rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
> >
>
> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk.

IME, that's a pretty harsh claim, as it isn't providing much balance in context to just
how limited things in that era were.

> No memory management to speak of, terrible multitasking, crash prone, ...

Apple did have some elements where they had been backed into a corner, but I always
found that many of the complaints were exaggerated "fanboy" biased attacks. For
example, Multitasker was attacked for being "cooperative", but for its day (1987; with
OS 5) on RAM-limited computers at the Mac's price point, it was a breakthrough, shipping
nearly a decade earlier than Microsoft's Win95 even though it wasn't the "preemptive"
that the purists claimed they wanted: it was a significant productivity enhancement.

Regarding crashes, these were often because of too many extensions, which prompted
the Extension Manager (and even a joke Extension which only loaded a ton of Extension
Icons to make your coworkers jealous). Meantime, Windows was in "DLL Hell"..
> it was arguably as bad as Windows 98 SE or ME.

Sounds like you're mostly trying to compare OS 9, rather than any of the prior ~15 years
worth of matchups. Its worth noting how Windows users were often so "clingy" to certain
OS revisions, often refused to let go for years & despite attempts by MS to force upgrades
(see XP), it is clear that the grass wasn't really all that greener on the Windows side.

> Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary.

A vast improvement but not really a contemporary to OS 9 per se, for just as how Apple was
going through a very public transition from Classical OS to OS X, Microsoft was more quietly
doing the same, by taking their commercial grade OS of NT and working to "consumerize" it.
As such, you're trying to compare a commercial grade product to a consumer grade one.

Even so, while MS's NT conversion did well for business PCs, home PC users got shafted pretty
thoroughly: there were a ton of howls of complaints because the NT architecture broke a lot
of their PC hardware accessories because the legacy drivers were incompatible, and PC
manufacturers weren't writing new NT drivers for old hardware.
> It took several years for OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
> became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years invested in Windows, the
> hardware was more affordable, no good reason to switch. Then Apple started taking away
> ports and giving up reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.

I was using both Mac & Windows through this era, although I skipped over the initial rollout of
OS X; jumped in at 10.2 or 10.3 ; by the point, it was IMO already quite comparable to XP.
And we've already talked at length of how Ive went downhill after Jobs, probably from Tim
pushing ever harder for manufacturing economies.

>
> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win 2000 was 21 years
> ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the high end at the moment.

It will be interesting to watch how MS response to the Apple ARM chip, particularly since they've
been dabbling for years (remember Windows CE?)

> If you just want to browse the web, keep up with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that.

As well as a $300 iPad.

> My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it in case W11 VM on
> the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes
> away reassess. In meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.

So long as there's no monthly software rental fee, one may as well. At least old laptops take up
less space than old desktops. I recently pulled out & used a 2008 MacBook Pro; was kind of
amazed that the battery took a charge. Main problem it had was that its browser wasn't compatible
with many websites because of "https" security requirements.

>
> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many interface ideas from each
> other that it's now comically easy to switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.

Its always been comparable to different brands of cars, with slightly different controls layouts.

>
> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never appreciated that until I bought
> an iPad then an iPhone. I've not needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last
> 30 years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away.

Which is worth something. Its surprising how often people forget about lifecycle management.

> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes the Apple M series.

Considering how much they've dabbled with CE over the years, they clearly know about how
there's that hardware factor. Comes down to the question of if they see the PC market start
to shift more away from Intel to make more of a compelling business case to make it official.

> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh

On 11/10/2021 8:49 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
>> his new home & office layout, etc.
>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>
>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
>>> ago).
>>>
>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>>
>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>
>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>
>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>>
>>
>> -hh
>
> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of, terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
>
> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep up with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that. My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.
>
> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
>
> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30 years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away. I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes the Apple M series.
>
> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
>

I must say you have become quite the Apple fanboy Tom. In spite of
Alans "advocacy"

On 2021-11-11 1:33 p.m., John wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 8:49 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell
>>> wrote:
>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a
>>>>> Mac
>>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
>>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
>>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of
>>>>> 55.
>>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
>>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
>>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
>>> earlier this week;
>>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some
>>> nice pics of
>>> his new home & office layout, etc.
>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically
>>>> "Where
>>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>
>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy"
>>>> going on
>>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was
>>>> the
>>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years,
>>> particularly
>>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
>>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
>>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
>>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
>>>> years
>>>> ago).
>>>>
>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for
>>>> "real
>>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
>>> laptop market,
>>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
>>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>>>
>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>
>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>
>>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
>>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
>>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic
>>>>> Mac
>>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>>
>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
>>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
>>> everything from
>>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about
>>>> VHS
>>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
>>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
>>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>>>
>>>
>>> -hh
>>
>> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of,
>> terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows
>> 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much
>> bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for
>> OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
>> became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years
>> invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason
>> to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up
>> reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
>>
>> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win
>> 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the
>> high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep up
>> with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that. My
>> almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it
>> in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and
>> sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In meantime I'll
>> enjoy the new toy.
>>
>> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many
>> interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to switch
>> back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
>>
>> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never
>> appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not
>> needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30
>> years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away.
>> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes
>> the Apple M series.
>>
>> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
>>
>
>
> I must say you have become quite the Apple fanboy Tom.  In spite of
> Alans "advocacy"

I'm still not convinced that this isn't all just a ploy...

On 2021-11-11 1:47 p.m., Alan wrote:
> On 2021-11-11 1:33 p.m., John wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 8:49 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be
>>>>>> a Mac
>>>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
>>>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
>>>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age
>>>>>> of 55.
>>>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any
>>>>>> real
>>>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
>>>> earlier this week;
>>>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some
>>>> nice pics of
>>>> his new home & office layout, etc.
>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically
>>>>> "Where
>>>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy"
>>>>> going on
>>>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That
>>>>> was the
>>>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years,
>>>> particularly
>>>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
>>>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
>>>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
>>>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs
>>>>> 30 years
>>>>> ago).
>>>>>
>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for
>>>>> "real
>>>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
>>>> laptop market,
>>>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
>>>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>>>>
>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>
>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>
>>>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a
>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
>>>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
>>>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties.
>>>>>> Classic Mac
>>>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95
>>>>> and
>>>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
>>>> everything from
>>>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue
>>>>> about VHS
>>>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>>>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
>>>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
>>>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -hh
>>>
>>> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of,
>>> terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows
>>> 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much
>>> bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for
>>> OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
>>> became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years
>>> invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason
>>> to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up
>>> reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
>>>
>>> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as
>>> Win 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at
>>> the high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep
>>> up with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do
>>> that. My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going
>>> to keep it in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to
>>> the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In
>>> meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.
>>>
>>> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many
>>> interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to
>>> switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
>>>
>>> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never
>>> appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not
>>> needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30
>>> years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away.
>>> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes
>>> the Apple M series.
>>>
>>> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
>>>
>>
>>
>> I must say you have become quite the Apple fanboy Tom.  In spite of
>> Alans "advocacy"
>
> I'm still not convinced that this isn't all just a ploy...

;-)

On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 6:57:40 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 11:49:55 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell wrote:
> > > > John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a Mac
> > > > > advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> > > > > performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> > > > > recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of 55.
> > > > > There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> > > > > who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> > > > > Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> > > > > advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> > > I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup earlier this week;
> > > last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of
> > > his new home & office layout, etc.
> > > > Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically "Where
> > > > has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> > > >
> > > > I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy" going on
> > > > here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was the
> > > > Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> > > Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years, particularly
> > > from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> > > > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> > > > same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> > > > (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> > > > "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years
> > > > ago).
> > > >
> > > > It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for "real
> > > > men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> > > Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the laptop market,
> > > where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> > > apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
> > >
> > > "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> > >
> > > <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> > > > > Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> > > > > XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> > > > > since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> > > > > since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac
> > > > > OS sure was an embarrasment.
> > > >
> > > > Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> > > > Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> > > LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of everything from
> > > that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> > > > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about VHS
> > > > vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> > > > Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> > >
> > > Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> > > his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> > > rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
> > >
> >
> > Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk.
> IME, that's a pretty harsh claim, as it isn't providing much balance in context to just
> how limited things in that era were.
>
> > No memory management to speak of, terrible multitasking, crash prone, ....
>
> Apple did have some elements where they had been backed into a corner, but I always
> found that many of the complaints were exaggerated "fanboy" biased attacks. For
> example, Multitasker was attacked for being "cooperative", but for its day (1987; with
> OS 5) on RAM-limited computers at the Mac's price point, it was a breakthrough, shipping
> nearly a decade earlier than Microsoft's Win95 even though it wasn't the "preemptive"
> that the purists claimed they wanted: it was a significant productivity enhancement.
>
> Regarding crashes, these were often because of too many extensions, which prompted
> the Extension Manager (and even a joke Extension which only loaded a ton of Extension
> Icons to make your coworkers jealous). Meantime, Windows was in "DLL Hell".
> > it was arguably as bad as Windows 98 SE or ME.
> Sounds like you're mostly trying to compare OS 9, rather than any of the prior ~15 years
> worth of matchups. Its worth noting how Windows users were often so "clingy" to certain
> OS revisions, often refused to let go for years & despite attempts by MS to force upgrades
> (see XP), it is clear that the grass wasn't really all that greener on the Windows side.
> > Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary.
> A vast improvement but not really a contemporary to OS 9 per se, for just as how Apple was
> going through a very public transition from Classical OS to OS X, Microsoft was more quietly
> doing the same, by taking their commercial grade OS of NT and working to "consumerize" it.
> As such, you're trying to compare a commercial grade product to a consumer grade one.
>
> Even so, while MS's NT conversion did well for business PCs, home PC users got shafted pretty
> thoroughly: there were a ton of howls of complaints because the NT architecture broke a lot
> of their PC hardware accessories because the legacy drivers were incompatible, and PC
> manufacturers weren't writing new NT drivers for old hardware.
> > It took several years for OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
> > became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years invested in Windows, the
> > hardware was more affordable, no good reason to switch. Then Apple started taking away
> > ports and giving up reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
> I was using both Mac & Windows through this era, although I skipped over the initial rollout of
> OS X; jumped in at 10.2 or 10.3 ; by the point, it was IMO already quite comparable to XP.
> And we've already talked at length of how Ive went downhill after Jobs, probably from Tim
> pushing ever harder for manufacturing economies.
> >
> > But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win 2000 was 21 years
> > ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the high end at the moment.
> It will be interesting to watch how MS response to the Apple ARM chip, particularly since they've
> been dabbling for years (remember Windows CE?)
> > If you just want to browse the web, keep up with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that.
> As well as a $300 iPad.
> > My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it in case W11 VM on
> > the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes
> > away reassess. In meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.
> So long as there's no monthly software rental fee, one may as well. At least old laptops take up
> less space than old desktops. I recently pulled out & used a 2008 MacBook Pro; was kind of
> amazed that the battery took a charge. Main problem it had was that its browser wasn't compatible
> with many websites because of "https" security requirements.
> >
> > And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many interface ideas from each
> > other that it's now comically easy to switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
> Its always been comparable to different brands of cars, with slightly different controls layouts.
> >
> > Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never appreciated that until I bought
> > an iPad then an iPhone. I've not needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last
> > 30 years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away..
> Which is worth something. Its surprising how often people forget about lifecycle management.
> > I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes the Apple M series.
> Considering how much they've dabbled with CE over the years, they clearly know about how
> there's that hardware factor. Comes down to the question of if they see the PC market start
> to shift more away from Intel to make more of a compelling business case to make it official.
> > Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
> Yes, it is a day for remembrance; we'll be running up our flag from the USS Arizona this morning
> for those who will not grow old.
>
>
> -hh

On 2021-11-11 2:44 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 6:57:40 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 11:49:55 PM UTC-5, Thomas E.
>> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
>>>> Campbell wrote:
>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed
>>>>>> to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any
>>>>>> effective advocacy was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta
>>>>>> who went by the name Macman as I recall. Unfortunately he
>>>>>> passed a few years ago at the young age of 55. There was a
>>>>>> guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed
>>>>>> also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still
>>>>>> around - not doing any real advocacy. Cannot remember the
>>>>>> others.
>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
>>>> earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they were doing
>>>> okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new home & office
>>>> layout, etc.
>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
>>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
>>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs vs
>>>>> Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
>>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android.
>>>>> With the same arguments being made. Android is "open" and
>>>>> represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and
>>>>> iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings" who want to make a
>>>>> "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years ago).
>>>>>
>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows
>>>>> is for "real men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies".
>>>>> 🙄
>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
>>>> laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
>>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a nice
>>>> bump in October sales:
>>>>
>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>
>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>>>
>>>>
Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first
>>>>>> Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how
>>>>>> far Mac has come since my first experiences with it at work
>>>>>> in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1,
>>>>> Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total
>>>>> POS.
>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
>>>> everything from that era as being primitive by our current
>>>> level of expectations.
>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
>>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs
>>>>> ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world
>>>>> has moved on.
>>>>
>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
>>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing
>>>> of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get a new
>>>> desktop seen...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk.
>> IME, that's a pretty harsh claim, as it isn't providing much
>> balance in context to just how limited things in that era were.
>>
>>> No memory management to speak of, terrible multitasking, crash
>>> prone, ...
>>
>> Apple did have some elements where they had been backed into a
>> corner, but I always found that many of the complaints were
>> exaggerated "fanboy" biased attacks. For example, Multitasker was
>> attacked for being "cooperative", but for its day (1987; with OS 5)
>> on RAM-limited computers at the Mac's price point, it was a
>> breakthrough, shipping nearly a decade earlier than Microsoft's
>> Win95 even though it wasn't the "preemptive" that the purists
>> claimed they wanted: it was a significant productivity
>> enhancement.
>>
>> Regarding crashes, these were often because of too many extensions,
>> which prompted the Extension Manager (and even a joke Extension
>> which only loaded a ton of Extension Icons to make your coworkers
>> jealous). Meantime, Windows was in "DLL Hell".
>>> it was arguably as bad as Windows 98 SE or ME.
>> Sounds like you're mostly trying to compare OS 9, rather than any
>> of the prior ~15 years worth of matchups. Its worth noting how
>> Windows users were often so "clingy" to certain OS revisions, often
>> refused to let go for years & despite attempts by MS to force
>> upgrades (see XP), it is clear that the grass wasn't really all
>> that greener on the Windows side.
>>> Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much
>>> bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary.
>> A vast improvement but not really a contemporary to OS 9 per se,
>> for just as how Apple was going through a very public transition
>> from Classical OS to OS X, Microsoft was more quietly doing the
>> same, by taking their commercial grade OS of NT and working to
>> "consumerize" it. As such, you're trying to compare a commercial
>> grade product to a consumer grade one.
>>
>> Even so, while MS's NT conversion did well for business PCs, home
>> PC users got shafted pretty thoroughly: there were a ton of howls
>> of complaints because the NT architecture broke a lot of their PC
>> hardware accessories because the legacy drivers were incompatible,
>> and PC manufacturers weren't writing new NT drivers for old
>> hardware.
>>> It took several years for OS X to catch up, but by then with the
>>> move to Intel to me MacBook became a different dress on the same
>>> hardware body. I had years invested in Windows, the hardware was
>>> more affordable, no good reason to switch. Then Apple started
>>> taking away ports and giving up reliability for the sake of
>>> fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
>> I was using both Mac & Windows through this era, although I skipped
>> over the initial rollout of OS X; jumped in at 10.2 or 10.3 ; by
>> the point, it was IMO already quite comparable to XP. And we've
>> already talked at length of how Ive went downhill after Jobs,
>> probably from Tim pushing ever harder for manufacturing economies.
>>>
>>> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me
>>> as Win 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot
>>> compete at the high end at the moment.
>> It will be interesting to watch how MS response to the Apple ARM
>> chip, particularly since they've been dabbling for years (remember
>> Windows CE?)
>>> If you just want to browse the web, keep up with email, shop and
>>> read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that.
>> As well as a $300 iPad.
>>> My almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to
>>> keep it in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back
>>> to the HP and sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess.
>>> In meantime I'll enjoy the new toy.
>> So long as there's no monthly software rental fee, one may as well.
>> At least old laptops take up less space than old desktops. I
>> recently pulled out & used a 2008 MacBook Pro; was kind of amazed
>> that the battery took a charge. Main problem it had was that its
>> browser wasn't compatible with many websites because of "https"
>> security requirements.
>>>
>>> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many
>>> interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to
>>> switch back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so
>>> easy.
>> Its always been comparable to different brands of cars, with
>> slightly different controls layouts.
>>>
>>> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never
>>> appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not
>>> needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30
>>> years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes
>>> away.
>> Which is worth something. Its surprising how often people forget
>> about lifecycle management.
>>> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that
>>> includes the Apple M series.
>> Considering how much they've dabbled with CE over the years, they
>> clearly know about how there's that hardware factor. Comes down to
>> the question of if they see the PC market start to shift more away
>> from Intel to make more of a compelling business case to make it
>> official.
>>> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
>> Yes, it is a day for remembrance; we'll be running up our flag from
>> the USS Arizona this morning for those who will not grow old.
>>
>>
>> -hh
>
> I got my OS 9 machine after Win 2000 on a new HP laptop. There was NO
> comparison. I could barely load 3 or 4 apps in OS 9 before it ran out
> of RAM. Windows 2000 would load everything I had and keep trucking
> along. It was light years ahead of Mac OS. XP came out in late 2001
> and was also stable from the get-go. Yes it broke a few things, but
> so did OS X vs. OS 9 and then the transition to Intel broke more.

On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 4:47:22 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> On 2021-11-11 1:33 p.m., John wrote:
> > On 11/10/2021 8:49 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a
> >>>>> Mac
> >>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
> >>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
> >>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of
> >>>>> 55.
> >>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> >>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
> >>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
> >>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> >>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
> >>> earlier this week;
> >>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some
> >>> nice pics of
> >>> his new home & office layout, etc.
> >>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically
> >>>> "Where
> >>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy"
> >>>> going on
> >>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was
> >>>> the
> >>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> >>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years,
> >>> particularly
> >>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> >>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
> >>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
> >>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
> >>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
> >>>> years
> >>>> ago).
> >>>>
> >>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for
> >>>> "real
> >>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
> >>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
> >>> laptop market,
> >>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
> >>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
> >>>
> >>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> >>>
> >>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> >>>
> >>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a
> >>>>> Windows
> >>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
> >>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
> >>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic
> >>>>> Mac
> >>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
> >>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
> >>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
> >>> everything from
> >>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
> >>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about
> >>>> VHS
> >>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
> >>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
> >>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> >>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
> >>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -hh
> >>
> >> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of,
> >> terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows
> >> 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much
> >> bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for
> >> OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
> >> became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years
> >> invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason
> >> to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up
> >> reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
> >>
> >> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win
> >> 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the
> >> high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep up
> >> with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that. My
> >> almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it
> >> in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and
> >> sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In meantime I'll
> >> enjoy the new toy.
> >>
> >> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many
> >> interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to switch
> >> back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
> >>
> >> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never
> >> appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not
> >> needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30
> >> years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away.
> >> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes
> >> the Apple M series.
> >>
> >> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
> >>
> >
> >
> > I must say you have become quite the Apple fanboy Tom. In spite of
> > Alans "advocacy"
> I'm still not convinced that this isn't all just a ploy...

Really? Need to see some sort of proof? Check the header in my posts. Need a picture of my desktop?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKeTwADvVTD2bBY5f2AENFQbEQN0XdD5/view?usp=sharing

Note Quicken running on Parallels. See the reply I started at the bottom of the Edge window? See the Dock. The the little red, orange and green buttons on the Edge windows.

More?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlwOL09GpH8q4AGrB1z5XTv_yQWsGQjT/view?usp=sharing

Still think it's a "ploy" Liarboy.

Just like always, you will try to find a flaw, even if it takes creating one out of thin air.

On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 12:58:49 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> On 2021-11-10 8:16 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> >> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
> >>>> Campbell wrote:
> >>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed
> >>>>>> to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any
> >>>>>> effective advocacy was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta
> >>>>>> who went by the name Macman as I recall. Unfortunately he
> >>>>>> passed a few years ago at the young age of 55. There was a
> >>>>>> guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
> >>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed
> >>>>>> also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still
> >>>>>> around - not doing any real advocacy. Cannot remember the
> >>>>>> others.
> >>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
> >>>> earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they were doing
> >>>> okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new home & office
> >>>> layout, etc.
> >>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
> >>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
> >>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs vs
> >>>>> Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30 years ago.
> >>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
> >>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> >>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android.
> >>>>> With the same arguments being made. Android is "open" and
> >>>>> represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and
> >>>>> iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings" who want to make a
> >>>>> "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30 years ago).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows
> >>>>> is for "real men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies".
> >>>>> 🙄
> >>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
> >>>> laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
> >>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a nice
> >>>> bump in October sales:
> >>>>
> >>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> >>>>
> >>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> >>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first
> >>>>>> Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how
> >>>>>> far Mac has come since my first experiences with it at work
> >>>>>> in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure was an embarrasment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1,
> >>>>> Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total
> >>>>> POS.
> >>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
> >>>> everything from that era as being primitive by our current
> >>>> level of expectations.
> >>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
> >>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs
> >>>>> ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world
> >>>>> has moved on.
> >>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
> >>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing
> >>>> of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get a new
> >>>> desktop seen...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -hh
> >>>
> >>> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible speed, a
> >>> good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought one. In fact,
> >>> I bought it about a week after it was announced. I walked into
> >>> the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week wait. While I was talking to
> >>> the sales person I saw a customer receive a new MacBook. I walked
> >>> out with one too. Why is that so remarkable?
> >>>
> >>> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with
> >>> taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple site
> >>> is showing no availability at the local store and Dec 3-10 for
> >>> delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one delighted with
> >>> Apple's solution to their self-created problems.
> >>>
> >>> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes boneheaded
> >>> mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports, fragile cables,
> >>> etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in my Universe.
> >>>
> >> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.
> >
> > I did not say you had denied,
> That is precisely what you just said, Idiot.
>
> "all denied"
> > you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy. You
> > have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism. Please cite a
> > instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.
> No, Idiot.
>
> It's your claim that I've denied that Apple has made mistakes.
>
> YOU give an example of this.

Oh come on Alan. Think back to iPhone 6 battery issues. You claimed that Apple was acting in good faith when it put CPU throttling in iOS without telling anyone.

On 2021-11-11 3:23 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 12:58:49 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>> On 2021-11-10 8:16 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
>>>>>> Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was
>>>>>>>> supposed to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time
>>>>>>>> hardly any effective advocacy was performed. I remember
>>>>>>>> Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I recall.
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young
>>>>>>>> age of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who was
>>>>>>>> an interesting character who was into high end audio.
>>>>>>>> Think he must have passed also. There was Sandman(hope
>>>>>>>> he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any
>>>>>>>> real advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>>>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another
>>>>>> newsgroup earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they
>>>>>> were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new
>>>>>> home & office layout, etc.
>>>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
>>>>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
>>>>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs
>>>>>>> vs Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30
>>>>>>> years ago.
>>>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
>>>>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and
>>>>>>> Android. With the same arguments being made. Android is
>>>>>>> "open" and represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30
>>>>>>> years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings"
>>>>>>> who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
>>>>>>> years ago).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever.
>>>>>>> Android/Windows is for "real men" and anything from Apple
>>>>>>> is for "kiddies". 🙄
>>>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on
>>>>>> the laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
>>>>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a
>>>>>> nice bump in October sales:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my
>>>>>>>> first Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing
>>>>>>>> about how far Mac has come since my first experiences
>>>>>>>> with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure
>>>>>>>> was an embarrasment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3,
>>>>>>> 3.1, Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME
>>>>>>> was a total POS.
>>>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think
>>>>>> of everything from that era as being primitive by our
>>>>>> current level of expectations.
>>>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
>>>>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM
>>>>>>> vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The
>>>>>>> world has moved on.
>>>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
>>>>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm
>>>>>> hearing of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get
>>>>>> a new desktop seen...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible
>>>>> speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought
>>>>> one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was
>>>>> announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week
>>>>> wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a
>>>>> customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too.
>>>>> Why is that so remarkable?
>>>>>
>>>>> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with
>>>>> taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple
>>>>> site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec
>>>>> 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one
>>>>> delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created
>>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes
>>>>> boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports,
>>>>> fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in
>>>>> my Universe.
>>>>>
>>>> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.
>>>
>>> I did not say you had denied,
>> That is precisely what you just said, Idiot.
>>
>> "all denied"
>>> you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy.
>>> You have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism. Please
>>> cite a instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.
>> No, Idiot.
>>
>> It's your claim that I've denied that Apple has made mistakes.
>>
>> YOU give an example of this.
>
> Oh come on Alan. Think back to iPhone 6 battery issues. You claimed
> that Apple was acting in good faith when it put CPU throttling in iOS
> without telling anyone.
>

Quotes, please.

On 2021-11-11 3:21 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 4:47:22 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>> On 2021-11-11 1:33 p.m., John wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2021 8:49 PM, Thomas E. wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob Campbell
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a
>>>>>>> Mac
>>>>>>> advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy was
>>>>>>> performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I
>>>>>>> recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age of
>>>>>>> 55.
>>>>>>> There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting character
>>>>>>> who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed also. There was
>>>>>>> Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any real
>>>>>>> advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
>>>>> earlier this week;
>>>>> last I checked up on him, they were doing okay; his blog has some
>>>>> nice pics of
>>>>> his new home & office layout, etc.
>>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago. Basically
>>>>>> "Where
>>>>>> has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no "advocacy"
>>>>>> going on
>>>>>> here because no one cares about Macs vs Windows these days. That was
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Raging Debate 30 years ago.
>>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for years,
>>>>> particularly
>>>>> from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With the
>>>>>> same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents "freedom"
>>>>>> (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for
>>>>>> "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
>>>>>> years
>>>>>> ago).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever. Android/Windows is for
>>>>>> "real
>>>>>> men" and anything from Apple is for "kiddies". 🙄
>>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
>>>>> laptop market,
>>>>> where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has
>>>>> apparently given them a nice bump in October sales:
>>>>>
>>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a
>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first Mac. Ever
>>>>>>> since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac has come
>>>>>>> since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties. Classic
>>>>>>> Mac
>>>>>>> OS sure was an embarrasment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3, 3.1, Win95 and
>>>>>> Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME was a total POS.
>>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think of
>>>>> everything from
>>>>> that era as being primitive by our current level of expectations.
>>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue about
>>>>>> VHS
>>>>>> vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP.
>>>>>> Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
>>>>> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac Pro
>>>>> rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -hh
>>>>
>>>> Yep, Mac OS prior to OS X was junk. No memory management to speak of,
>>>> terrible multitasking, crash prone, it was arguably as bad as Windows
>>>> 98 SE or ME. Windows 2000 was a revelation. Blew me away! Pretty much
>>>> bullet-proof. It was an OS 9 contemporary. It took several years for
>>>> OS X to catch up, but by then with the move to Intel to me MacBook
>>>> became a different dress on the same hardware body. I had years
>>>> invested in Windows, the hardware was more affordable, no good reason
>>>> to switch. Then Apple started taking away ports and giving up
>>>> reliability for the sake of fashion - aka Butterfly Keyboard.
>>>>
>>>> But now, well just wow. The new MacBook Pro is as amazing to me as Win
>>>> 2000 was 21 years ago. The Windows laptop world cannot compete at the
>>>> high end at the moment. If you just want to browse the web, keep up
>>>> with email, shop and read books a $500 Windows laptop will do that. My
>>>> almost 4 year old HP is still quite serviceable. I'm going to keep it
>>>> in case W11 VM on the Mac M1 goes away. I might go back to the HP and
>>>> sell the Mac, then when OS 10 goes away reassess. In meantime I'll
>>>> enjoy the new toy.
>>>>
>>>> And Windows versus Mac OS? The companies have "borrowed" so many
>>>> interface ideas from each other that it's now comically easy to switch
>>>> back and forth now. OS 9 vs Win 2000 21 years ago? Not so easy.
>>>>
>>>> Then too, there is the service after the sale dimension. I never
>>>> appreciated that until I bought an iPad then an iPhone. I've not
>>>> needed much in the way of serious device repairs over the last 30
>>>> years, but it's good to know that the Apple Store is 20 minutes away.
>>>> I'm hoping MS wakes up and makes a W11 version for ARM that includes
>>>> the Apple M series.
>>>>
>>>> Happy Veteran's Day Hugh
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I must say you have become quite the Apple fanboy Tom. In spite of
>>> Alans "advocacy"
>> I'm still not convinced that this isn't all just a ploy...
>
> Really? Need to see some sort of proof? Check the header in my posts. Need a picture of my desktop?
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKeTwADvVTD2bBY5f2AENFQbEQN0XdD5/view?usp=sharing
>
> Note Quicken running on Parallels. See the reply I started at the bottom of the Edge window? See the Dock. The the little red, orange and green buttons on the Edge windows.
>
> More?
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlwOL09GpH8q4AGrB1z5XTv_yQWsGQjT/view?usp=sharing
>
> Still think it's a "ploy" Liarboy.
>
> Just like always, you will try to find a flaw, even if it takes creating one out of thin air.
>

Look at my very next post, Idiot.

On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 6:31:08 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> On 2021-11-11 3:23 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 12:58:49 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> >> On 2021-11-10 8:16 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
> >>>>>> Campbell wrote:
> >>>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was
> >>>>>>>> supposed to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time
> >>>>>>>> hardly any effective advocacy was performed. I remember
> >>>>>>>> Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I recall.
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young
> >>>>>>>> age of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who was
> >>>>>>>> an interesting character who was into high end audio.
> >>>>>>>> Think he must have passed also. There was Sandman(hope
> >>>>>>>> he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any
> >>>>>>>> real advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
> >>>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another
> >>>>>> newsgroup earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they
> >>>>>> were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new
> >>>>>> home & office layout, etc.
> >>>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
> >>>>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
> >>>>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs
> >>>>>>> vs Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30
> >>>>>>> years ago.
> >>>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
> >>>>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
> >>>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and
> >>>>>>> Android. With the same arguments being made. Android is
> >>>>>>> "open" and represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30
> >>>>>>> years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings"
> >>>>>>> who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
> >>>>>>> years ago).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever.
> >>>>>>> Android/Windows is for "real men" and anything from Apple
> >>>>>>> is for "kiddies". 🙄
> >>>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on
> >>>>>> the laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
> >>>>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a
> >>>>>> nice bump in October sales:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>
> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
> >>>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my
> >>>>>>>> first Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing
> >>>>>>>> about how far Mac has come since my first experiences
> >>>>>>>> with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure
> >>>>>>>> was an embarrasment.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3,
> >>>>>>> 3.1, Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME
> >>>>>>> was a total POS.
> >>>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think
> >>>>>> of everything from that era as being primitive by our
> >>>>>> current level of expectations.
> >>>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
> >>>>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM
> >>>>>>> vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The
> >>>>>>> world has moved on.
> >>>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
> >>>>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm
> >>>>>> hearing of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get
> >>>>>> a new desktop seen...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -hh
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible
> >>>>> speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought
> >>>>> one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was
> >>>>> announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week
> >>>>> wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a
> >>>>> customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too.
> >>>>> Why is that so remarkable?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with
> >>>>> taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple
> >>>>> site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec
> >>>>> 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one
> >>>>> delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created
> >>>>> problems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes
> >>>>> boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports,
> >>>>> fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in
> >>>>> my Universe.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.
> >>>
> >>> I did not say you had denied,
> >> That is precisely what you just said, Idiot.
> >>
> >> "all denied"
> >>> you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy.
> >>> You have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism. Please
> >>> cite a instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.
> >> No, Idiot.
> >>
> >> It's your claim that I've denied that Apple has made mistakes.
> >>
> >> YOU give an example of this.
> >
> > Oh come on Alan. Think back to iPhone 6 battery issues. You claimed
> > that Apple was acting in good faith when it put CPU throttling in iOS
> > without telling anyone.
> >
> Quotes, please.

Look at the "Apple's Plan to Pay $500 Million to Settle Lawsuit Over Secretly Throttling Older iPhones Gets Preliminary Approval today" for your defense of
Apple in a massive battery lawsuit they settled instead of going to trial.

On 2021-11-12 2:03 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 6:31:08 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>> On 2021-11-11 3:23 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 12:58:49 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2021-11-10 8:16 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:36:37 PM UTC-5, Alan
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-11-10 8:57 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:47:24 AM UTC-5, -hh
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, Bob
>>>>>>>> Campbell wrote:
>>>>>>>>> John <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was
>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be a Mac advocacy group but at that time
>>>>>>>>>> hardly any effective advocacy was performed. I remember
>>>>>>>>>> Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as I recall.
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young
>>>>>>>>>> age of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who was
>>>>>>>>>> an interesting character who was into high end audio.
>>>>>>>>>> Think he must have passed also. There was Sandman(hope
>>>>>>>>>> he is still OK. Alan is still around - not doing any
>>>>>>>>>> real advocacy. Cannot remember the others.
>>>>>>>> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another
>>>>>>>> newsgroup earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they
>>>>>>>> were doing okay; his blog has some nice pics of his new
>>>>>>>> home & office layout, etc.
>>>>>>>>> Someone else posted a similar question a few weeks ago.
>>>>>>>>> Basically "Where has all the Mac Advocacy gone?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll give the same answer as I did then. There is no
>>>>>>>>> "advocacy" going on here because no one cares about Macs
>>>>>>>>> vs Windows these days. That was the Raging Debate 30
>>>>>>>>> years ago.
>>>>>>>> Essentially, the "Apple is doomed!" has been debunked for
>>>>>>>> years, particularly from the rise of iOS & AAPL price.
>>>>>>>>> These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and
>>>>>>>>> Android. With the same arguments being made. Android is
>>>>>>>>> "open" and represents "freedom" (just like Windows did 30
>>>>>>>>> years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is the choice for "lemmings"
>>>>>>>>> who want to make a "fashion statement" (just like Macs 30
>>>>>>>>> years ago).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is all just as silly and stupid as ever.
>>>>>>>>> Android/Windows is for "real men" and anything from Apple
>>>>>>>>> is for "kiddies". 🙄
>>>>>>>> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on
>>>>>>>> the laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max
>>>>>>>> CPU-equipped MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a
>>>>>>>> nice bump in October sales:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... 24% U.S. market share as of October 2021.."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>> XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my
>>>>>>>>>> first Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing
>>>>>>>>>> about how far Mac has come since my first experiences
>>>>>>>>>> with it at work in the nineties. Classic Mac OS sure
>>>>>>>>>> was an embarrasment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Windows was just as embarrassing before Windows 2000. 3,
>>>>>>>>> 3.1, Win95 and Win98 were all based on DOS. Windows ME
>>>>>>>>> was a total POS.
>>>>>>>> LOL, I was thinking the same thing: we pretty much think
>>>>>>>> of everything from that era as being primitive by our
>>>>>>>> current level of expectations.
>>>>>>>>> But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well
>>>>>>>>> argue about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM
>>>>>>>>> vs ZMODEM. ARC vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The
>>>>>>>>> world has moved on.
>>>>>>>> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go
>>>>>>>> through his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm
>>>>>>>> hearing of some iMac Pro rumors that might tempt me to get
>>>>>>>> a new desktop seen...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -hh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that as soon as Apple made a laptop with incredible
>>>>>>> speed, a good set of ports, and a durable keyboard I bought
>>>>>>> one. In fact, I bought it about a week after it was
>>>>>>> announced. I walked into the Apple Store expecting a 2-4 week
>>>>>>> wait. While I was talking to the sales person I saw a
>>>>>>> customer receive a new MacBook. I walked out with one too.
>>>>>>> Why is that so remarkable?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trust Apple to brag about solving problems they created with
>>>>>>> taking away ports and selling a POS keyboard. LOL. The Apple
>>>>>>> site is showing no availability at the local store and Dec
>>>>>>> 3-10 for delivery of my specs. I'm far from the only one
>>>>>>> delighted with Apple's solution to their self-created
>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now if Alan Baker would just admit that Apple makes
>>>>>>> boneheaded mistakes (batterygate, butterfly, missing ports,
>>>>>>> fragile cables, etc. all denied) all would be in harmony in
>>>>>>> my Universe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never denied that Apple makes mistakes, Liarboy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not say you had denied,
>>>> That is precisely what you just said, Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> "all denied"
>>>>> you to my knowledge never admitted. Not the same thing Liarboy.
>>>>> You have defended and continue to defend Apple criticism. Please
>>>>> cite a instances where you stated that Apple was in the wrong.
>>>> No, Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> It's your claim that I've denied that Apple has made mistakes.
>>>>
>>>> YOU give an example of this.
>>>
>>> Oh come on Alan. Think back to iPhone 6 battery issues. You claimed
>>> that Apple was acting in good faith when it put CPU throttling in iOS
>>> without telling anyone.
>>>
>> Quotes, please.
>
> Look at the "Apple's Plan to Pay $500 Million to Settle Lawsuit Over Secretly Throttling Older iPhones Gets Preliminary Approval today" for your defense of
> Apple in a massive battery lawsuit they settled instead of going to trial.
>

Nope.

You provide the quotes, Idiot!

On 2021-11-12 2:03 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 6:31:08 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:

>>> Oh come on Alan. Think back to iPhone 6 battery issues. You
>>> claimed that Apple was acting in good faith when it put CPU
>>> throttling in iOS without telling anyone.
>>>
>> Quotes, please.
>
> Look at the "Apple's Plan to Pay $500 Million to Settle Lawsuit Over
> Secretly Throttling Older iPhones Gets Preliminary Approval today"
> for your defense of Apple in a massive battery lawsuit they settled
> instead of going to trial.

So I did look at the thread...

(It was only 10 posts; 2 of which were from the hardcore anti-Apple
zealot, "Arlen")

....and I didn't find a single word where I stated that Apple was acting
in good faith.

Here are all the substantive statements I made in that thread:

Post 2:
"And what you don't get is that a settlement is by no means an admission
of guilt."

Post7:
"They screwed up, as in: they erred.

But as I said, this is no admission of actual wrongdoing that could have
resulted in a judgement against them."

Post 10 (in reply to you):
"So you agree that you have no support for Apple's guilt in this."

And you had no rebuttal for that.

If that was your best shot, Idiot...

In article <c_udnR7S2sK_IRf8nZ2dnUU7-LHNnZ2d@giganews.com>, John wrote:

> Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to be a
> Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective advocacy
> was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the name Macman as
> I recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago at the young age
> of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who was an interesting
> character who was into high end audio. Think he must have passed
> also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK. Alan is still around -
> not doing any real advocacy. Cannot remember the others.

I'm ok :)

> Back then in 2001 the Mac was a total piece of junk and I was a
> Windows XP backer. By 2004 and an improving OS X I bought my first
> Mac. Ever since I have been a Mac advocate. Thing about how far Mac
> has come since my first experiences with it at work in the nineties.
> Classic Mac OS sure was an embarrasment.

--
Sandman

In article <36b08647-04ae-48db-bf8d-c923a555b376n@googlegroups.com>, -hh
wrote:

> > John <nos...@nospam.com>wrote:
>
> > > John:
> > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to
> > > be a Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective
> > > advocacy was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the
> > > name Macman as I recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago
> > > at the young age of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who
> > > was an interesting character who was into high end audio. Think
> > > he must have passed also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK.
> > > Alan is still around - not doing any real advocacy. Cannot
> > > remember the others.
>
> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
> earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they were doing okay;
> his blog has some nice pics of his new home & office layout, etc.

I'm doing just fine, moved my office home indeed, and it's working great.

> > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With
> > the same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents
> > "freedom" (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is
> > the choice for "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement"
> > (just like Macs 30 years ago). It is all just as silly and stupid
> > as ever. Android/Windows is for "real men" and anything from Apple
> > is for "kiddies". 🙄
>
> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
> laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped
> MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a nice bump in October
> sales:

And kicks the ass of just about anything Windows.

> > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue
> > about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC
> > vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>
> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac
> Pro rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...

I recently got a Mac mini as my main work computer, and the Dell Ultrasharp
curved 40" monitor on a swivel stand, so I don't think an iMac is for me
anymore. When and if the Mac mini gets the new Apple Silicone, I may switch
it up. Super happy with the Mac mini.

--
Sandman

In article <36b08647-04ae-48db-bf8d-c923a555b376n@googlegroups.com>, -hh
wrote:

> > John <nos...@nospam.com>wrote:
>
> > > John:
> > > Twenty years ago I first dropped into CSMA. It was supposed to
> > > be a Mac advocacy group but at that time hardly any effective
> > > advocacy was performed. I remember Joe Ragosta who went by the
> > > name Macman as I recall. Unfortunately he passed a few years ago
> > > at the young age of 55. There was a guy named George Graves who
> > > was an interesting character who was into high end audio. Think
> > > he must have passed also. There was Sandman(hope he is still OK.
> > > Alan is still around - not doing any real advocacy. Cannot
> > > remember the others.
>
> I noticed a post from Jonas (aka Sandman) on another newsgroup
> earlier this week; last I checked up on him, they were doing okay;
> his blog has some nice pics of his new home & office layout, etc.

I'm doing just fine, moved my office home indeed, and it's working great.

> > These days, the "advocacy" is between iOS/iPadOS and Android. With
> > the same arguments being made. Android is "open" and represents
> > "freedom" (just like Windows did 30 years ago) and iOS/iPadOS is
> > the choice for "lemmings" who want to make a "fashion statement"
> > (just like Macs 30 years ago). It is all just as silly and stupid
> > as ever. Android/Windows is for "real men" and anything from Apple
> > is for "kiddies". 🙄
>
> Well, from an advocacy standpoint, the news this week is on the
> laptop market, where Apple's release of the M1 Pro/Max CPU-equipped
> MacBook Pro's has apparently given them a nice bump in October
> sales:

And kicks the ass of just about anything Windows.

> > But again, this is all ancient history. We might as well argue
> > about VHS vs Beta VCRs. AOL vs Compuserve. XMODEM vs ZMODEM. ARC
> > vs ZIP. Mac vs Windows. No one cares. The world has moved on.
>
> Pretty much. It has been interesting to watch Tom Elam go through
> his 'discovery' period, though. Meantime, I'm hearing of some iMac
> Pro rumors that might tempt me to get a new desktop seen...

I recently got a Mac mini as my main work computer, and the Dell Ultrasharp
curved 40" monitor on a swivel stand, so I don't think an iMac is for me
anymore. When and if the Mac mini gets the new Apple Silicone, I may switch
it up. Super happy with the Mac mini.

--
Sandman