Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Fascinating, a totally parochial attitude. -- Spock, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8


computers / comp.ai.philosophy / Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
+- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
+* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
|`* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
| `- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
`* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
 +- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
 `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
  +- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
  +* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
  |+- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
  |`* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
  | +- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Richard Damon
  | `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
  |  +* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
  |  |`- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
  |  +* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
  |  |`- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
  |  `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
  |   `- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
  `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Python
   `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
    `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
     `* Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      `- Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon

1
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8816&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8816

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:49:43 -0500
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:49:42 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 139
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-4Xsn/GlRbG4viQA9sPdvzwFiMbwogpYqSeAG+YrlgApsVmNWNqnoMj89u59GBVla/5qmq6tzjZBi2Qj!GodFVIX9MBgrZ8T+tjI44t5FjJTh8B81x3oHveuO+F1V4gnDpEZeRulhKb5sI66tPvZhrKs8v6o=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 7369
 by: olcott - Wed, 18 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>
> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but it's
> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
> entering a simulator.
>
> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>
> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>

ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.

BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.

#include <stdint.h>
#define u32 uint32_t

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

_main()
[00001372](01) 55 push ebp
[00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001387](01) 50 push eax
[00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
[0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
[00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
[00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001398](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
....[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

....[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50 push eax
....[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
"Input_Halts = "
---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
Input_Halts = 0
....[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
....[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d pop ebp
....[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3 ret
Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
Number of Instructions Executed(15892)

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<rDfhK.22444$j0D5.9843@fx09.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8819&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8819

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx09.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <rDfhK.22444$j0D5.9843@fx09.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 19:50:47 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8025
 by: Richard Damon - Wed, 18 May 2022 23:50 UTC

On 5/18/22 12:49 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>
>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but it's
>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>> entering a simulator.
>>
>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I think
>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>
>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.  It's just
>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>
>
> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>
> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

And the trace starts to LIE right here unless H actually calls P

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

But H is seeing things, since it is looking at an incorrect trace,
unless the H that P called did just call P, then H is proven to NOT be a
computation as H(P,P) does different things at different times.

>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892)
>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5
>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8822&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8822

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 00:26:21 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 00:26:20 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 77
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-14nWC9mk2ar6Pc+ZEjOuXFL7Udiow7rutevRRxvD44Ndq1cO4rhHOprtXsgiZinTyHCUuk2V2pTGdLv!vsdMts5At9hCiDGwdMUSFgCHaeSqB+waDpZ2x/MsNA6G7+LLagynJrJlyeULE3iDolwABuFnQUM=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4973
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 05:26 UTC

On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but
>>>> it's
>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I think
>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.  It's just
>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>
>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>
>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>
> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>
>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>>
>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
>
> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
>
> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.

I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a basis
to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never previously
confirmed.

Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.

>
>> not a made up
>> edited trace, or a trace of some other function altogether.  Though what
>> I really want if fo you to be brave enough to publish H.
>>
>
> THIS IS THE ACTUAL TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) THAT H ACTUALLY PRODUCES.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8824&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8824

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:41:13 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:41:11 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 105
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-7NPX9nxYgOOKKINssbKM0Knm5tr8nKzpbZqCYR0lVKs4BdfW7dosK2ptMOyN/hrORXM2qA92TeQ4w35!5er3Oz2WwnCzviM5ogKntG7zn6B5LyP34BmjlZfnie8db9pWG99+o2cL4t4kkvwpoUHd0tK6d0w=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 6589
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:41 UTC

On 5/19/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:26:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>
>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
>>>
>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>
>>>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
>>>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
>>>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
>>>
>>> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
>>> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
>>> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
>>>
>>> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.
>> I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
>> finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a basis
>> to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never previously
>> confirmed.
>>
>> Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
>> language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
>> trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.
>>
> P calls H. But H, as you have described it, doesn't call P. It emulates it.
> But the trace seems to show a call. The infinite cycle detector, as you
> have described it is based on a call.
>
> So it's unclear what is going on.

It is a little annoying that I have to say this 150 times and people
can't remember that I said it even once. I take this as head games.
H(P,P) emulates its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.

Because H only emulates the first 7 instructions of its input H cannot
possibly have any effect on the behavior of this input. This means that
there is no need to see the 237 pages of the execution trace of H.

Furthermore we can easily verify that these first 7 instructions of P
are emulated correctly because the execution trace provided by H exactly
matches the behavior specified by these first 7 instructions of P.

> And it turns out that the traces are edited.

I removed some of the extraneous debug information about the memory
allocation. A normal execution trace would not show this. I changed the
source-code so that it doesn't display this.

My purpose in providing the memory allocation information was to prove
that there really are several independent processes. H(P,P) emulating
its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.

> So is the second part of the trace the output of the emulated emulator?
>

The first 7 lines are emulated by the emulator, the second 7 lines are
emulated by the emulated emulator.

> That seems the best explanation, but we can't be sure that this is going on.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8825&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8825

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:48:43 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 10:48:41 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 79
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-aUu6wPFIxoLEkOFHjZ2e2scs6clIJtDdywe5Scc8RC6eGIv3qarSmDkRv+Q1Xtm6z4LDa3YDM//mPRL!ydoZJS3T+vxcRDiQOs+bURHZaEtqja9umvHMFNqhBo4goaMmNsJtBvFaMz/CUKX0B9QpUJccBDo=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 5496
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:48 UTC

On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but it's
>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>
>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>
>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
>>
>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>
> Another question you won't answer. What are you hiding?

A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
information that you have consistently proven incapable of comprehending.

>
> We already know that H is not deciding the halting instance that it
> should (i.e. whether the call P(P) halts or not) but it also seems you
> are being deceptive about what H is really doing.
>

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<Y3uhK.85$vAW9.70@fx10.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8826&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8826

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx10.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com>
<CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <Y3uhK.85$vAW9.70@fx10.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 12:16:55 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8454
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:16 UTC

On 5/19/22 11:41 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:26:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      //
>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      //
>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally
>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing
>>>>> the
>>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>>
>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>>
>>>>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
>>>>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
>>>>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
>>>>
>>>> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
>>>> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
>>>> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
>>>>
>>>> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.
>>> I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
>>> finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a basis
>>> to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never previously
>>> confirmed.
>>>
>>> Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
>>> language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
>>> trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.
>>>
>> P calls H. But H, as you have described it, doesn't call P. It
>> emulates it.
>> But the trace seems to show a call. The infinite cycle detector, as you
>> have described it is based on a call.
>>
>> So it's unclear what is going on.
>
>
> It is a little annoying that I have to say this 150 times and people
> can't remember that I said it even once. I take this as head games.
> H(P,P) emulates its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.

But that isn't what the trace shows. The second trace of P is NOT what
actually happens.

>
> Because H only emulates the first 7 instructions of its input H cannot
> possibly have any effect on the behavior of this input. This means that
> there is no need to see the 237 pages of the execution trace of H.
>

But it DOES have inpact on the copy of P that calls it, and because H
needes

> Furthermore we can easily verify that these first 7 instructions of P
> are emulated correctly because the execution trace provided by H exactly
> matches the behavior specified by these first 7 instructions of P.

Except that you don't correctly emulate the REST of P, which includes
the code of H. The "copy" of H that P calls is part of the execution
history of the Program P.
>
>> And it turns out that the traces are edited.
>
> I removed some of the extraneous debug information about the memory
> allocation. A normal execution trace would not show this. I changed the
> source-code so that it doesn't display this.

Maybe it is H that edits it itself. Still says the trace is NOT a trace
of the execution path of the PROGRAM P.

"Subroutine" P is not a computation by itself. The bytes you are calling
the "representation" of P is not comp[ete. This just shows that you are
just lying about following the proof.

>
> My purpose in providing the memory allocation information was to prove
> that there really are several independent processes. H(P,P) emulating
> its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.

But you don't show the ACTUAL execution trace of what the program P
does, which after P calls H is to start emulating the input that P gave
to the function H. Remember, the PROGRAM P, includes as part of its code
ALL the code that would be executed if you directly execute P as an
independent program, which includes all of H, and anything H uses.

>
>> So is the second part of the trace the output of the emulated emulator?
>>
>
> The first 7 lines are emulated by the emulator, the second 7 lines are
> emulated by the emulated emulator.

SO NOT a trace of the emulation of the P that the top level H is
deciding on.

THAT is the error. The transformation of an emulation of an emulator to
the emulation of the emulated code is ONLY valid for unconditional
emulation, which H does not do.

So, that transformation is an INVALID logical operation, and thus makes
your whole arguemet INCORRECT.

My guess (and will admit that it is only a guess) is that your H doesn't
actually have the code to emulate, but that H is just an API into your
overall simulation system, which is INCAPABLE of actually emulating its
emulation of the input (and thus switches to showing the trace of the
code being emulated by the emulator and not the emulation of that code
(with its conditionals to abort on what it INCORRECT decides in infinite
recursion). This make your H NOT actually meeting the requirements of a
Computation that is the equivalent of a Turing Machine.

>
>> That seems the best explanation, but we can't be sure that this is
>> going on.
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<88uhK.2$lut9.1@fx99.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8827&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8827

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx99.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <88uhK.2$lut9.1@fx99.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 12:21:24 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 5864
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 16:21 UTC

On 5/19/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I think
>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally
>>>>>> honest
>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.  It's
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>
>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>
>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>
>> Another question you won't answer.  What are you hiding?
>
> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
> information that you have consistently proven incapable of comprehending.
>
>>
>> We already know that H is not deciding the halting instance that it
>> should (i.e. whether the call P(P) halts or not) but it also seems you
>> are being deceptive about what H is really doing.
>>
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

The LIE starts here.

NO CPU will go to address 00001352 as a result of a call 000011A2.

Thus, this is NOT a correct trace.

Since you are basing you analysis on a FALSE trace, your results are
invalid.

You are just proving that your setup is BROKEN.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.
>

Nope, please provide a reference to this that includes handling a
CONDITIONAL emulation in the loop.

You are just proving that your knowledge of this sort of thing is abismal

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8828&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8828

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 14:36:27 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 14:36:26 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 177
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-ATWpeAcMCk/v2qIxvhfHaChe7G4HTK55qLfwMr+II1a3v9d7LSaDnCRCwA0DCvZ0GlgJw1xzPHmb3Hz!uEDG7+HA52a/8/LE/7PdSGT37XcdwaGPN2Fr9eY0bP1sS9QNsBwEraNzkm2rkqWf48j0k8UoDIo=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 9390
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:36 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but it's
>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>>>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
>>>>
>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>> Another question you won't answer. What are you hiding?
>>
>> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
>> information that you have consistently proven incapable of
>> comprehending.
>
> You'll have to make it public one day, unless chatting on here is your
> only objective.

ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
CORRECT.

#include <stdint.h>
#define u32 uint32_t

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

_main()
[00001372](01) 55 push ebp
[00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001387](01) 50 push eax
[00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
[0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
[00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
[00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001398](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
....[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

....[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50 push eax
....[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
"Input_Halts = "
---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
Input_Halts = 0
....[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
....[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d pop ebp
....[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3 ret
Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

> No one will take deceptively edited traces as evidence
> of anything but you being shifty, and since you've already abandoned any
> pretence at talking about the halting problem, all you have is this
> faked-up trace of the simulation.

ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
CORRECT.

ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT THE
EXECUTION TRACE PROVIDED CORRESPONDS TO THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF H(P,P)
EMULATING ITS INPUT CALLING H(P,P) THAT EMULATES ITS INPUT.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU DON'T SEE THIS.

> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>
> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>

There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been ill
and had other issues that I had to deal with.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<5axhK.4$Rvub.2@fx35.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8829&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8829

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx35.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 219
Message-ID: <5axhK.4$Rvub.2@fx35.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:48:17 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 10924
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 19:48 UTC

On 5/19/22 3:36 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      //
>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      //
>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking
>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally
>>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify
>>>>>> editing the
>>>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>> Another question you won't answer.  What are you hiding?
>>>
>>> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
>>> information that you have consistently proven incapable of
>>> comprehending.
>>
>> You'll have to make it public one day, unless chatting on here is your
>> only objective.
>
> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
> CORRECT.
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

But the trace is false, so the application of the rule is incorrect.

H sees P calling H which CONDITIONALLY simulates P which calls H

The CONDITIONAL simulation break your "rule"

FAIL

>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>> No one will take deceptively edited traces as evidence
>> of anything but you being shifty, and since you've already abandoned any
>> pretence at talking about the halting problem, all you have is this
>> faked-up trace of the simulation.
>
> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
> CORRECT.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8830&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8830

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!1.us.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:53:04 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:53:02 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 203
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-u9tbxI+H9SuGWkq1PWCGO6QGJP8kIDGimhtmRkdW9jk5k492BKao/HcnCCTqabypB3EJWC4q96hiV0D!+21f5bASYoqYW2Jumjw/Qo75wSwIooBk8mCOrFzGzOftEsYvq4WRUwTyS0kH3Dnz9Q82b03Z2dg=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 10559
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 20:53 UTC

On 5/19/2022 2:36 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      //
>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      //
>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking
>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally
>>>>>>>> honest
>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify
>>>>>> editing the
>>>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>> Another question you won't answer.  What are you hiding?
>>>
>>> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
>>> information that you have consistently proven incapable of
>>> comprehending.
>>
>> You'll have to make it public one day, unless chatting on here is your
>> only objective.
>
> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
> CORRECT.
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.
>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>> No one will take deceptively edited traces as evidence
>> of anything but you being shifty, and since you've already abandoned any
>> pretence at talking about the halting problem, all you have is this
>> faked-up trace of the simulation.
>
> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
> CORRECT.
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8831&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8831

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!7a25jG6pUKCqa0zKnKnvdg.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pyt...@example.invalid (Python)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:38:17 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="32335"; posting-host="7a25jG6pUKCqa0zKnKnvdg.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: Python - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:38 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
....
>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>
>
> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been ill
> and had other issues that I had to deal with.

It should have taken four hours, remember?

You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<HpzhK.168$3Gzd.25@fx96.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8832&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8832

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx96.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 212
Message-ID: <HpzhK.168$3Gzd.25@fx96.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:21:27 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 10595
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:21 UTC

On 5/19/22 4:53 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      //
>>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      //
>>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking
>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is
>>>>>>>>> fundamentally honest
>>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify
>>>>>>> editing the
>>>>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>>> Another question you won't answer.  What are you hiding?
>>>>
>>>> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
>>>> information that you have consistently proven incapable of
>>>> comprehending.
>>>
>>> You'll have to make it public one day, unless chatting on here is your
>>> only objective.
>>
>> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
>> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
>> CORRECT.
>>
>> #include <stdint.h>
>> #define u32 uint32_t
>>
>> void P(u32 x)
>> {
>>    if (H(x, x))
>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>    return;
>> }
>>
>> int main()
>> {
>>    Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
>> }
>>
>> _P()
>> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
>> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
>> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
>> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
>> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
>> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
>> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
>> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>>
>> _main()
>> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
>> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
>> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
>> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
>> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
>> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
>> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
>> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
>> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>>
>>      machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>      address   address   data      code       language
>>      ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
>> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>
>> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine
>> address with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the
>> infinite recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior
>> pattern.
>>
>> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
>> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
>> "Input_Halts = "
>> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
>> Input_Halts = 0
>> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
>> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
>> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
>> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>>
>>
>>> No one will take deceptively edited traces as evidence
>>> of anything but you being shifty, and since you've already abandoned any
>>> pretence at talking about the halting problem, all you have is this
>>> faked-up trace of the simulation.
>>
>> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
>> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
>> CORRECT.
>>
>
>
> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>
> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8833&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8833

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:43:07 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 17:43:05 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 29
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-Pob6MIR5PtzNwf+jEIU+1qYznxPddl81jsNjZumB5VGR13jSA04sq0jo+YGq2zWvRAfWo+7Z05EwDcj!JRNlf0Yx8oCY/Qb7FUwja+PkNa5D3GWcESQTItyZfgKJ/1GC6s5jb/z/enBIBfUO7E+IYQew8O4=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2472
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:43 UTC

On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
> ...
>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>
>>
>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>
> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>
> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>

I have been sick from chemotherapy.
I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
My design scales much better than Ben's design.
Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8834&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8834

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx45.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org> <xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:58:23 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 2234
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:58 UTC

On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>> ...
>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>
>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>
>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>
>
> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>

My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better. (Bit
more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<2rydnbajspRvSRv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8835&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8835

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:38:26 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 18:38:23 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org> <xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <2rydnbajspRvSRv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 42
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-NbA4QrmQS/9QSlWj/HrM+bkUtgJZMx2zor59Jy/q+4DMI0wlNPWtucXk1YOxh3Lp6IqQSSkYgLf/NZQ!oxqAcM6nL9q0mPMAGoXlLzZXJnKitLyfPU3xVe3Ac5vLcWjUlISbO+dLlj6KRR1zABwfky0yEtM=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3226
 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:38 UTC

On 5/19/2022 5:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>
>>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>>
>>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>>
>>
>> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
>> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
>> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>
>
> My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better. (Bit
> more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)
>

Normally for a DFA one always has O(1) because the current input and
current state are in a fully populated matrix. When the current state,
current input are in a sparse matrix a fully populated matrix wastes too
mach space. In this case O log2(N) is the best that we can do. I had to
do this for my DFA based OCR system because the current input was a
short list of 24-bit pixels.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<_FBhK.2312$J0r9.1486@fx11.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8836&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8836

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx11.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org> <xNKdnYrivIJmWhv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad> <2rydnbajspRvSRv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <2rydnbajspRvSRv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <_FBhK.2312$J0r9.1486@fx11.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 20:55:21 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 3581
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:55 UTC

On 5/19/22 7:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 5:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have
>>>>> been ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>>>
>>>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
>>> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
>>> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
>>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>>
>>
>> My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better.
>> (Bit more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)
>>
>
> Normally for a DFA one always has O(1) because the current input and
> current state are in a fully populated matrix. When the current state,
> current input are in a sparse matrix a fully populated matrix wastes too
> mach space. In this case O log2(N) is the best that we can do. I had to
> do this for my DFA based OCR system because the current input was a
> short list of 24-bit pixels.
>

But it is easy to convert the sparce matrix into a dense one with a
simple mapping layer, and if you keep the inverse map around it is still
simple to make your output (and keep even that O(1))

The other option is to use a hash table to find entries.

Since for any case that matters, the run time vastly outweighs the time
to read the description, spending just a bit up front to optimize the
state transitions is likely worth it.

And, if you are limiting your states and symbols to the basic character
set, even the sparce table isn't that big for a modern computer (It
likely still fits in L1 cache)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8838&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8838

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:51:13 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:51:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 147
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-HAOes6gsZkhTT3PNDr66Vz4ZWmi/UT0btzNBbELnQ0V1etBvZaHMpRYKZAhSaY1YHbw4hSLb7LSCuvO!/DxXG/ON1+dRjabit5kMmOxKRzgl1Ytzyv452LMOOweDTcnjVh6pmxjDkjRmm7wfZUIxyjnpaVs=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 7791
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:51 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>
>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>> execution trace,
>>
>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>> more details [would not help].
>
> (Your correction added)
>
> Yours traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
> people you are being honest about the output.
>

I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

They would be able to confirm that the execution trace of the first 7
instructions of the input to H(P,P) is the execution trace of P.
Malcolm already did that.

When I tell them that H only performs a pure simulation of its input
then these smart non-liars would be able to confirm that the next 7
lines of the execution trace of P are the correct 7 lines for this
nested simulation of P.

These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
H(P,P)==0 is correct. They would be able to see the P does specify
infinitely nested simulation that never reaches its own final state at
machine address: [0000136c].

#include <stdint.h>
#define u32 uint32_t

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

_main()
[00001372](01) 55 push ebp
[00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001387](01) 50 push eax
[00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
[0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
[00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
[00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001398](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
....[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

....[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50 push eax
....[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
"Input_Halts = "
---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
Input_Halts = 0
....[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
....[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d pop ebp
....[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3 ret
Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

> Anyway, it's no skin off my nose. H fails at the task you once set
> yourself -- the one the word cares about -- so finding out what H is
> actually deciding is just an amusing distraction.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<FaOhK.2210$Rvub.570@fx35.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8839&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8839

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx35.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 169
Message-ID: <FaOhK.2210$Rvub.570@fx35.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:09:24 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8733
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:09 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>
>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>> execution trace,
>>>
>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>> more details [would not help].
>>
>> (Your correction added)
>>
>> Yours traces are edited.  No one will believe them until you post the
>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>
>
> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

You mean replace yourself?

The other people are not lying, you are.

>
> They would be able to confirm that the execution trace of the first 7
> instructions of the input to H(P,P) is the execution trace of P.
> Malcolm already did that.
>
> When I tell them that H only performs a pure simulation of its input
> then these smart non-liars would be able to confirm that the next 7
> lines of the execution trace of P are the correct 7 lines for this
> nested simulation of P.

LIE. H does NOT do a "Pure Simulation" by the meaning of the words,
since it can abort its simulation.

There is no such thing as Conditional Unconditional processing.

The is no actual execution of P inside the simulation done by the H
called by P, so reporting that is just a LIE.

>
> These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
> execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
> H(P,P)==0 is correct. They would be able to see the P does specify
> infinitely nested simulation that never reaches its own final state at
> machine address: [0000136c].

No, we just need to simple examination of the code to see that H(P,P)
must be wrong to say P(P) is non-halting when it returns 0.

If it isn't answering about P(P), then YOU are LYING that H is a Halting
Decider.

>
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

BEGIN THE BIG LIE.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.
>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>> Anyway, it's no skin off my nose.  H fails at the task you once set
>> yourself -- the one the word cares about -- so finding out what H is
>> actually deciding is just an amusing distraction.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8840&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8840

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Followup: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Followup-To: comp.theory
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 16:12:05 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29588"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/MNhi2Lq66MEvICCDI6Qov8gCZcuayIo8="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:I6PEg3UGgi5Y3g6C4UtsTdfcc50=
sha1:N6EqLhS8Odrd/Jhfwki5oklD2rw=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.6bdd8bbd800347b7c81f.20220520161205BST.87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:12 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>
>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>> execution trace,
>>>
>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>> more details [would not help].
>> (Your correction added)
>>
>> Your traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>> people you are being honest about the output.
>
> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

I don't lie. Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing. And
having admitted to editing the traces, no one is going to believe you.

But I urge you, most forcefully, to find someone to review your claims
who you have enough respect for to listen to what they have to say.

> These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
> execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
> H(P,P)==0 is correct.

It would be dumb to accept edited traces that don't show the nested
emulation you claim is occurring. Maybe you can find a smart sucker out
there? We all know they exist.

But first you'd have explain why they should care about what H is
actually deciding since it isn't the halting of the call specified by
the problem definition. Apparently you accept (but dare not actually
state) that not algorithm an do what H is supposed to do. It'll be hard
to get people enthusiastic about a function that just gets halting of
the conventional constriction wrong.

> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

Post it all (if indeed it even exists) or better yet, stop keeping H a
secret.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<xemdnW4D8OOYZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8841&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8841

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:09 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:08 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <xemdnW4D8OOYZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 70
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-ebhkrc8/nENM+NraXFgBEoDD9U1AadbJVBKPmWIrSUgC25vm5lczf1ffWPxr7Kj733hsLYX19M22q0C!0zwsDNy9QOvOqp4Bbn3aoTBcEiMXT5O5HWcnC7Q/3Cr0n8CBEY9CJjlpiAVHXC7ZrnOjf8IDrtQ=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4751
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:33 UTC

On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't lie. Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>
>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>> you are very stupid.
>>> I really don't care. The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>> like your trace.
>>
>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>
> So you say. But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
> of function calls. No emulation code appears at all. You may have
> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
> to do.

NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
CORRECT.

>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>
> Post H and I'll gladly explain. We know that H is not a halt decider,
> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
> you post only edited execution traces.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<xemdnWkD8OO5Zhr_nZ2dnUU7_8z8fwAA@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8842&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8842

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:39 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:39 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <xemdnWkD8OO5Zhr_nZ2dnUU7_8z8fwAA@giganews.com>
Lines: 69
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-H0PBkhCI8FQCkGAt0CIl5m6kG1TFs54vrzcNqfw4zbX9/Ahls7aL6MWurO+qJgmNacLbUg+yjxOpo6Z!ZFGyDwGS1llnEPV6w/OlVZEWracxkMVoTOcMqLRZeZiIe1bwtpVnmGbz2NLVMHKk3URdIbFOXE8=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4749
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:33 UTC

On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't lie. Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>
>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>> you are very stupid.
>>> I really don't care. The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>> like your trace.
>>
>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>
> So you say. But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
> of function calls. No emulation code appears at all. You may have
> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
> to do.

NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
CORRECT.

>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>
> Post H and I'll gladly explain. We know that H is not a halt decider,
> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
> you post only edited execution traces.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<xemdnWgD8OOoZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8843&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8843

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:57 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:33:57 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <xemdnWgD8OOoZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 70
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-dr1WhpTS75Fiv16M1Nt4xjyCKr2lR8eyyojCld2PT+uDLE9SWcVoj9WFP0RqJnwHrbEYPatT0JedztP!EMdtTL9FggS7YlWMcxrm/bGfs2xgLmo/0voXTGhy0yEmrBJiRuT2s6mDZIOOFeY20uYqq46AKNQ=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4751
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:33 UTC

On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't lie. Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>
>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>> you are very stupid.
>>> I really don't care. The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>> like your trace.
>>
>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>
> So you say. But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
> of function calls. No emulation code appears at all. You may have
> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
> to do.

NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
CORRECT.

>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>
> Post H and I'll gladly explain. We know that H is not a halt decider,
> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
> you post only edited execution traces.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<CwThK.4$921.3@fx37.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8844&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8844

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx37.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<xemdnWgD8OOoZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <xemdnWgD8OOoZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <CwThK.4$921.3@fx37.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 17:14:09 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4484
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:14 UTC

On 5/20/22 4:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE
>>>>>>>>>>> BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest,
>>>>>>>>>> un-edited
>>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing
>>>>>>>>> 237-fold
>>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your traces are edited.  No one will believe them until you post
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't lie.  Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>>> you are very stupid.
>>>> I really don't care.  The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>>> like your trace.
>>>
>>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>>
>> So you say.  But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
>> of function calls.  No emulation code appears at all.  You may have
>> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
>> to do.
>
>
> NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
> SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
> THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
> CORRECT.
>

Nope.

>>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>>
>> Post H and I'll gladly explain.  We know that H is not a halt decider,
>> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
>> you post only edited execution traces.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<3xThK.5$921.2@fx37.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8845&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8845

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx37.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<xemdnW4D8OOYZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <xemdnW4D8OOYZhr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <3xThK.5$921.2@fx37.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 17:14:39 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4484
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:14 UTC

On 5/20/22 4:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE
>>>>>>>>>>> BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest,
>>>>>>>>>> un-edited
>>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing
>>>>>>>>> 237-fold
>>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your traces are edited.  No one will believe them until you post
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't lie.  Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>>> you are very stupid.
>>>> I really don't care.  The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>>> like your trace.
>>>
>>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>>
>> So you say.  But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
>> of function calls.  No emulation code appears at all.  You may have
>> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
>> to do.
>
>
> NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
> SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
> THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
> CORRECT.

Nope.

>
>>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>>
>> Post H and I'll gladly explain.  We know that H is not a halt decider,
>> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
>> you post only edited execution traces.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<ixThK.6$921.1@fx37.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=8846&group=comp.ai.philosophy#8846

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx37.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Q5WdnfJskMwcJRr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <878rqw41bo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<YuSdnW-aUL3WXxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87wneg2m2h.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<xemdnWkD8OO5Zhr_nZ2dnUU7_8z8fwAA@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <xemdnWkD8OO5Zhr_nZ2dnUU7_8z8fwAA@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <ixThK.6$921.1@fx37.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 17:14:54 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4480
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:14 UTC

On 5/20/22 4:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 11:41 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/20/2022 11:26 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 10:12 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE
>>>>>>>>>>> BASIS THAT
>>>>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>>>>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>>>>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest,
>>>>>>>>>> un-edited
>>>>>>>>>> execution trace,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>>>>>>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing
>>>>>>>>> 237-fold
>>>>>>>>> more details [would not help].
>>>>>>>> (Your correction added)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your traces are edited.  No one will believe them until you post
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>>>>>>>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't lie.  Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is either a lie or you are very stupid and I do not believe that
>>>>> you are very stupid.
>>>> I really don't care.  The trace of a nested emulation would not look
>>>> like your trace.
>>>
>>> This <is> the trace of the nested emulation of the input to H(P,P)
>>
>> So you say.  But there are no signs of anything but an edited sequence
>> of function calls.  No emulation code appears at all.  You may have
>> removed the evidence that you are right, but that would an absurd thing
>> to do.
>
> NONE-THE-LESS WHEN WE REVERSE ENGINEER WHAT THE CORRECT NESTED
> SIMULATION OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) WOULD BE IT EXACTLY MATCHES THE TRACE
> THAT IS PROVIDED THUS CONCLUSIVELY PROVING THAT THE TRACE PROVIDED IS
> CORRECT.

Nope/

>
>>> You will be exposed as a liar when you try to show any error in the
>>> execution trace of the nested simulation of the input to H(P,P).
>>
>> Post H and I'll gladly explain.  We know that H is not a halt decider,
>> but we don't know exactly what silly thing it really is deciding because
>> you post only edited execution traces.
>>
>
>

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor